Raan

[Red October]

What is up with RAAN? are they primitivists? i used to think they were pretty cool, but some of the shit they advocate is pretty dumb. and nachie is starting to turn me off about it. does anyone have aditional info about what they do and stand for?

[Fawkes]

Haha, I'm sorry, but the title of this thread is awesome. I think some of their members may be primitivists, but as far as I know, the group itself does not advocate primitivism. You can learn more about them from their website. (http://www.redanarchist.org) Personally, though I like the idea of setting up a group made up of affinity groups with varying political views, I'm not a huge fan of RAAN because they are very sectarian.

[Red October]

i like the basic concept of it. but this (http://www.redanarchist.org/propaganda/makesussick.pdf) pamphlet is stupid.

they hate medicine, technology, art, and unions?

[Black Dagger]

The RAAN site has a number of texts you can read to this end:

Defining RAAN:
http://redanarchist.org/definition/index.html

RAAN principals and direction (most useful to read if you want to understand the politics of the network generally):
http://www.redanarchist.org/texts/p&d.html

RAAN Principles of Organization:
http://www.redanarchist.org/texts/praxis/1...ganization.html (http://www.redanarchist.org/texts/praxis/1/principlesoforganization.html)

Seven Theses on the Orientation of RAAN:
http://www.redanarchist.org/texts/indy/7theses.html

The above should answer your last question.


As for your first question, No. RAAN is not a primitivist organisation.

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 22, 2007 10:28 pm
i like the basic concept of it. but this (http://www.redanarchist.org/propaganda/makesussick.pdf) pamphlet is retarded.

they hate medicine, technology, art, and unions?
Yeah I saw that, and I have to say, I find it pretty stupid. Though I think what they mean is that they hate how capitalism has perverted and abused those things -- I don't think they actually hate them. Also, I'd advise you not to use the word "retarded" in that sense anymore because it could get you into trouble seeing as how it is now against board rules.

[Red October]

Originally posted by Fawkes+February 22, 2007 10:32 pm--> (Fawkes @ February 22, 2007 10:32 pm)
Red [email protected] 22, 2007 10:28 pm
i like the basic concept of it. but this (http://www.redanarchist.org/propaganda/makesussick.pdf) pamphlet is retarded.

they hate medicine, technology, art, and unions?
Yeah I saw that, and I have to say, I find it pretty stupid. Though I think what they mean is that they hate how capitalism has perverted and abused those things -- I don't think they actually hate them. Also, I'd advise you not to use the word "retarded" in that sense anymore because it could get you into trouble seeing as how it is now against board rules. [/b]
my bad. edited out. now, what's this about RAAN being sectarian?

[Fawkes]

They're very ardently opposed (as far as I know) to working with authoritarian socialists (i.e. Leninists) of any kind.

[Red October]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 10:36 pm
They're very ardently opposed (as far as I know) to working with authoritarian socialists (i.e. Leninists) of any kind.
makes sense. i have a problem with the way they present themselves. it seems like the image theyre putting out is "fuck everyone else lets do shit our way all the time". its a not a very good idea to alienate people in that way.

[Fawkes]

Here's an example of their sectarianism against Leninists and other auth. socialists. (http://redanarchist.org/propaganda/fucklenin.pdf)

[Red October]

has RAAN every actually accomplished anything?

[rouchambeau]

Since when is being sectarian automatically bad? Many people on the "revolutionary left" do not deserve the support of other "leftists".

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 10:48 pm
Since when is being sectarian automatically bad? Many people on the "revolutionary left" do not deserve the support of other "leftists".
Well, I never said it was automatically bad, I said it was bad in this case. The capitalists already have far more power than us (that's a given), so why should we waste our time fighting each other over ideological differences that are not that great when we could combine our forces into a much stronger one to take down our ultimate enemy: capitalism?

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 22, 2007 10:47 pm
has RAAN every actually accomplished anything?
I'm not sure whether any of their actions have accomplished anything substantial, but you can look through their history here. (http://redanarchist.org/history/index.html)

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by fawkes+--> (fawkes)They're very ardently opposed (as far as I know) to working with authoritarian socialists (i.e. Leninists) of any kind.[/b]

This is a common stance amongst left-communist, autonomous-marxist and anarchist groups globally -> and vice versa with Leninist groups.


Originally posted by [email protected]
so why should we waste our time fighting each other over ideological differences that are not that great

Firstly, it does not take much time at all to make strong rhetorical agruments Leninism as an ideology; so its hardly a 'waste of time' - given that it takes very little time and if successful will strengthen the capacity of the working class to organise itself on a autonomous basis.

Secondly, i think you're strong to assert that the 'ideological differences' between libertarian communists and Leninists are 'not that great'. On the contrary, authoritarian, monolithic and hierarchal organisation, support for personality cults, nation-states (states of any kind) these are all anti-thetical to libertarian communism, and by no means are 'minor'.


fawkes

when we could combine our forces into a much stronger one to take down our ultimate enemy: capitalism?

Sometimes its possible to organise with authoritarian communists for short periods of time, on issues where modes of organising etc. are not as relevant - but it is naive to think that this is possible on a regular, fully-integrated basis --> each side rejects each others basic emphasis of organisation, non-hierarchal affinity group networks vs. democratic centralist party structures.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

RAAN is totally awesome. If I wasn't a supporter of the RCP I'd definatly be with RAAN.

[chimx]

There are a lot of common misunderstandings about RAAN. Let me clarify a few points.

RAAN is not made up of primitivists. Technocrats on revleft like to accuse RAAN of it, but it is completely false. If you read RAANs P&D, we don't mention primitivism once. RAAN just chooses not to explicitly hate on primitivists. To my knowledge, no primitivist has actively participated in RAAN. 4 years ago, we had a self-proclaimed "marxist primitivst" that hung out on our forums. But last I heard, he moved to Japan years ago.

RAAN welcomes the "participation" of Leninists, provided they understand that we are fundamentally opposed to the creation of oppressive institutions. RAAN defines itself along its principles and direction document. If a Leninist wants to operate under the provisions of the P&D, good for them. From an old RAAN document:


Leninist sympathizers who recognize the priority of true class struggle, as we have come to understand them, stand in opposition to (anti-state) communism and anarchism mostly for reasons of unfamiliarity. Acquaintance with anti-authoritarian class struggle is the ultimate discourse with Leninist sympathizers, as is experience with the inherent counter-revolutionary conduct of vanguards. RAAN's actions will provide the former, the study and recurrence of history shall provide the latter. (Of course this is not to imply that we will sit idly while the Leninists continue to destroy genuine revolutionary movements, but we have to acknowledge that at this stage, the progression of the struggle also means the self-stratification and eradication of the old left.)


has RAAN every actually accomplished anything?
Yeah dude. RAAN smashed capitalism last week. Where were you?

[Sentinel]

I've got to say that I might like RAAN quite a lot, wasn't it for the apologism for primmies. If primitivists had their way and all technology was abolished civilisation as we know it would collapse, and several millions if not billions would immediately die as a result.. Definitely a catastrophe much worse than fascists for example propably could manage to cause with their best effort should they get power globally.

But if an org claimed that they 'choose not to explicitly hate fascists', they'd propably not be very popular here, and rightfully so. I wonder why you guys can't see the picture?

Endorsing genocidal maniacs as comrades can get you a foul reputation. :(

[OneBrickOneVoice]

How the fuck does RAAN want a dictatorship of the proletariat, yet no "oppressive institutions" the point of the DoP is to oppress the bourgeiosie.

[Chicano Shamrock]

Originally posted by Fawkes+February 23, 2007 03:52 am--> (Fawkes @ February 23, 2007 03:52 am)
[email protected] 22, 2007 10:48 pm
Since when is being sectarian automatically bad? Many people on the "revolutionary left" do not deserve the support of other "leftists".
Well, I never said it was automatically bad, I said it was bad in this case. The capitalists already have far more power than us (that's a given), so why should we waste our time fighting each other over ideological differences that are not that great when we could combine our forces into a much stronger one to take down our ultimate enemy: capitalism? [/b]
I don't think it is bad in this case. Sure capitalists have more power than everyone but that does not mean that people who are opposed to state oppression should pretend like state oppression is cool just to avoid people. The more RAAN says about Lennin the better. That means there is a possibility for workers to realize that a Leninist socialist state will end like a bureaucratic mess just like the unions in America.

These pamphlets could help more people to realize that they could fight for freedom instead of an oppressive state under a different name.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 05:12 am
Yeah dude. RAAN smashed capitalism last week. Where were you?
From the dictionary

Capitalism:

1. Social and economic system based on market competition between private companies;

2. A window in a bookshop and the door of a nightclub.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

psychos?

No.

Reactionaries.

Luís Henrique

[Black Dagger]

Luís Henrique, please lay off the unnecessary provocations.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

It's not unnecessary. He's answering a question... truthfully.

To paraphrase a great philospher, "Yes, RAAN is batshit insane."

[Faceless]

RAAN (http://redanarchist.org/propaganda/fucklenin.pdf) addressing me (a Leninist):
"We will hunt you at your conferences, burn your newspapers, and burn you in the street."


and then (http://www.redanarchist.org/texts/indy/7theses.html):

"Leninist sympathizers who recognize the priority of true class struggle, as we have come to understand them, stand in opposition to (anti-state) communism and anarchism mostly for reasons of unfamiliarity. Acquaintance with anti-authoritarian class struggle is the ultimate discourse with Leninist sympathizers..."


Ask yourself, is it a serious political organisation which first threatens to burn your literature (presumably because the strength of their ideas alone is insufficient), break up your conferences (presumably because freedom of association is something which means less to them than us "Leninists") and kill you; but then thinks it has a basis for a real discourse with those of you unfamiliar with its politics?

batshit insane

[chimx]

I've got to say that I might like RAAN quite a lot, wasn't it for the apologism for primmies. If primitivists had their way and all technology was abolished civilisation as we know it would collapse, and several millions if not billions would immediately die as a result.. Definitely a catastrophe much worse than fascists for example propably could manage to cause with their best effort should they get power globally.

But if an org claimed that they 'choose not to explicitly hate fascists', they'd propably not be very popular here, and rightfully so. I wonder why you guys can't see the picture?

Endorsing genocidal maniacs as comrades can get you a foul reputation. :(

I don't see how RAAN apologizes for primitivists. When we wrote the P&D, we didn't even mention them, nor have we ever. We have no opinion on them. As long as they follow the principles in the document (anti-state, anti-capital, etc.), than we welcome their participation just like we would welcome other people's participation, be they technocrats, transhumanists, etc. In fact, we have had far more technocrats and transhumanists particpat in RAAN than primitivists.

On a personal note, I would add that I think you have a skewed understanding of primitivism. Many primitivists see their ideology, not as a realistic attainable goal, but a necessary counter weight towards things such as technocracy and what have you. While we may all disagree with this, to say that they simply support mass-genocide because of that is misleading to say the least.


From the dictionary

Capitalism:

1. Social and economic system based on market competition between private companies;

2. A window in a bookshop and the door of a nightclub.

Lolz.

Well along with smashing a leninist bookstore and some men-only club, RAAN members have worked on environmental issues in the bitterroot national forests, trying to stop reclamation logging. RAAN members have opened up infoshops, worked on parkour workshops, egged Ralph Nader, organized marches, worked with the homeless, put on concerts, free markets, etc. etc. etc.

There are collectives working on smashing capitalism throughout the United States, Australia, Canada, and Venezuela. Ultimately, the direction of the network is decided *not* by some RAAN authority, but by the activity of the groups affiliates on the ground level. If you don't like the shit that RAAN affiliates choose to do, than it is your job to do something better and take the network in a direction you see as more worth wild.


How the fuck does RAAN want a dictatorship of the proletariat, yet no "oppressive institutions" the point of the DoP is to oppress the bourgeiosie.

The DofP is a vague term to say the least. RAAN wants revolution.


RAAN addressing me (a Leninist):
"We will hunt you at your conferences, burn your newspapers, and burn you in the street."

Well first of all, you are misquoting the pamphlet. It says "beat you in the street." That is an *independent text* not written by RAAN, but by an author who affiliates themselves with RAAN. It is not an official RAAN document/statement/declaration/etc.

That said, if you read the entire flyer, it should be fairly obvious that his was meant as hyperbole. At the time of its authorship, RAAN was being attacked by anarchists for embracing Marxists into the group. We were accused of being a Leninist organization and all sorts of stupid shit. This flyer was written in 2003 as a result of the author being fed up with the accusations. Yes RAAN is hostile to Leninist praxis and ideology, but RAAN is not necessarily hostile to Leninists on an individual basis. It simply depends on the actions of those individuals.

[Faceless]

Well along with smashing a leninist bookstore and some men-only club, RAAN members have worked on environmental issues in the bitterroot national forests, trying to stop reclamation logging. RAAN members have opened up infoshops, worked on parkour workshops, egged Ralph Nader, organized marches, worked with the homeless, put on concerts, free markets, etc. etc. etc.
what have any of those things got to do with class struggle "as you understand it"?

[chimx]

Are you serious? I would hope the homeless one would be obvious. The bitterroot campaign was explicitly anti-capitalist. Infoshops were made to make anti-capitalist class struggle literature available to a new audience. Ralph Nader is a capitalist swine.

But like I said before. If you don't like past activity, stop criticizing and do something better. That is what the network is about at its heart.

[Faceless]

its not entirely obvious.

The Big Issue work with homeless people. That has nothing to do with class struggle. The homeless have been thrown off from society; they barely constitute a class except in the similarly terrible nature of their conditions.

I don't need to tell you that throwing an egg at Nader isn't going to bring revolutionary ideas to the working class. In fact it has nothing to do with class struggle. I'm sure a lot of middle class people would like to throw eggs at Nader, doesn't make it class struggle.

How do you intend to intervene in the workers' movement? None of the actions you mentioned suggest you have the slightest intention except for phrase-mongering.

And criticism of past actions is mandatory. The fact is that your organisation, by showing Marx shooting Lenin, would seem to suggest that you take some ideas from Marx. ALL of Marx's ideas were not thought up out of thin air - to Marx an ounce of practice is worth a ton of theory. Practice is what informs our ideas. It is only by our practice in the class struggle that we can come up with our generalised theoretical conclusions which in turn affect our practice.

"stop criticising what we do and do better yourself," just doesn't cut it I'm afraid.

[chimx]

And criticism of past actions is mandatory. The fact is that your organisation, by showing Marx shooting Lenin, would seem to suggest that you take some ideas from Marx. ALL of Marx's ideas were not thought up out of thin air - to Marx an ounce of practice is worth a ton of theory. Practice is what informs our ideas. It is only by our practice in the class struggle that we can come up with our generalised theoretical conclusions which in turn affect our practice.

That is exactly what RAAN advocates. The past RAAN actions were done with anti-capitalist class struggle in mind. If you are asking me for information on how many unions RAAN has organized, the answer is zero. Of course myself (a non-union construction worker) and a few others have tried to organize our workplaces, but we don't generally publish activity when the activity doesn't work out. If you catch my drift.

[Enragé]

Secondly, i think you're strong to assert that the 'ideological differences' between libertarian communists and Leninists are 'not that great'. On the contrary, authoritarian, monolithic and hierarchal organisation, support for personality cults, nation-states (states of any kind) these are all anti-thetical to libertarian communism, and by no means are 'minor'.


trotskyists dont do that now do they.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by NKOS
trotskyists dont do that now do they.

Do what? Trotskyism is just as anti-thetical to libertarian communism as leninism, they rely on the same forms of organisation.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

The DofP is a vague term to say the least. RAAN wants revolution.

its a dictatorship over the bourgeios and no libertarian shit. It entails a state.

That is a fantastic answer though, and as we all know, revolution starts with egging Ralph Nadar.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 06:16 pm
revolution starts with egging Ralph Nadar.
And the RCP bookshop, and a men's club.

What do they have in common? They are all, at best, marginal to capitalism; they are all fervently hated by the most reactionary bourgeois organisations; they are all underprotected by the capitalist State.

RAAN are reactionaries; their targets show it clearly.

Luís Henrique

[Aurora]

Originally posted by RAAN+--> (RAAN)We are a union of anarchists, autonomists, situationists, and Marxists who believe that Lenin,
Trotsky, Stalin, Mao, and all those who affiliate themselves with the statist movements and ideologies they represent are not our allies, never have been, and never will be[/b]


Originally posted by Karl [email protected]
Between capitalist and communist society there lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. Corresponding to this is also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat.


Karl Marx
Freedom consists in converting the state from an organ superimposed upon society into one completely subordinate to it

L0lz ZoMg t3h 3nEmY wItH1n!!!!1111!!

[Fawkes]

black rose: I suppose when I said that the differences were minor I should have said that the differences between Auth. and Lib. socialists are minor when compared to their differences with capitalism. Also, constructing a well thought out argument against Leninism is not sectarian and I have no problem with doing that, but saying that Leninists will be "beaten in the streets" is.

[chimx]

Originally posted by Anarion+February 23, 2007 07:32 pm--> (Anarion @ February 23, 2007 07:32 pm)
Originally posted by RAAN+--> (RAAN)We are a union of anarchists, autonomists, situationists, and Marxists who believe that Lenin,
Trotsky, Stalin, Mao, and all those who affiliate themselves with the statist movements and ideologies they represent are not our allies, never have been, and never will be[/b]


Karl [email protected]
Between capitalist and communist society there lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. Corresponding to this is also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat.


Karl Marx
Freedom consists in converting the state from an organ superimposed upon society into one completely subordinate to it

L0lz ZoMg t3h 3nEmY wItH1n!!!!1111!! [/b]
Anarion: please stop with the slandering, or are you not smart enough to understand marx's definition of a state?

Luis: I'm very happy you are able to pick out a handful of actions you don't like that RAAN affiliates have done and generalize the entire network by these individual actions. It really shows you have a brain on your shoulder. Of course, that still doesn't touch on RAANs work with the impoverished, environment, youth, prisoners, etc.

Leninists always have trouble wrapping their heads around decentralized activity. Their inability to exist without a personality cult dictating directives really impedes with the understanding of the nature of the network. I would apologize, but you are probably too dense to get it.

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by Anarion+February 23, 2007 07:32 pm--> (Anarion @ February 23, 2007 07:32 pm)
Originally posted by RAAN+--> (RAAN)We are a union of anarchists, autonomists, situationists, and Marxists who believe that Lenin,
Trotsky, Stalin, Mao, and all those who affiliate themselves with the statist movements and ideologies they represent are not our allies, never have been, and never will be[/b]


Karl [email protected]
Between capitalist and communist society there lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. Corresponding to this is also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat.


Karl Marx
Freedom consists in converting the state from an organ superimposed upon society into one completely subordinate to it

L0lz ZoMg t3h 3nEmY wItH1n!!!!1111!! [/b]
:lol: Best post in this thread.

RAAN are an ultra-sectarian internet trend. Their greatest contribution to the epic stuggle between oppressor and oppressed has been setting up a few parkour jams.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 10:36 pm
They're very ardently opposed (as far as I know) to working with authoritarian socialists (i.e. Leninists) of any kind.
Umm...that's not sectarianism.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by chimx+February 23, 2007 09:25 pm--> (chimx @ February 23, 2007 09:25 pm) Anarion: please stop with the slandering [/b]
Slander is spoken, and truth is an absolute defence against accusations of defamation. Are you trying to sound clever by using "slander" instead of "wahh, they said something bad about us"? I suggest you stop trying, unless you want to take Anarion to court for slander. :lol: "Daddy state, they slandered our anti-statist network on teh internets! Do something!"

Now why don't you sit down with Hon. Ed Lolington and learn some more about internet law? :)

http://encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Internet_law


chimx
Luis: I'm very happy you are able to pick out a handful of actions you don't like that RAAN affiliates have done and generalize the entire network by these individual actions. It really shows you have a brain on your shoulder. Of course, that still doesn't touch on RAANs work with the impoverished, environment, youth, prisoners, etc.
More like, nobody gives a shit about your dumbass "decentralized activity" excuse. The negative actions by "RAANistas"(things that sound hispanic are so much cooler) are obviously endorsed or at least accepted as legitimate activity of "the network" as a whole(what with them being given coverage at the "hub" website, after all). So nobody gives a shit about how decentralized you are. The organization that I am in could immediately liquidate all positions and branches and say "hey guys, we're decentralized now". Then we could all go and do reactionary actions, boast about them on our website, and then when people complain about us, we could be like: "decentralization, yo!" It doesn't matter shit.


Leninists always have trouble wrapping their heads around decentralized activity. Their inability to exist without a personality cult dictating directives really impedes with the understanding of the nature of the network. I would apologize, but you are probably too dense to get it.
And you have trouble wrapping your heads around the fact that it is not an "either-or" decision between your reactionary actions under the guise of "that's not our fault, we're decentralized", or an overbearing personality cult dictating directives. But wait, I forgot: black-and-white thinking is soooo marxist. :rolleyes:

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by FoB+February 23, 2007 04:49 pm--> (FoB @ February 23, 2007 04:49 pm)
[email protected] 22, 2007 10:36 pm
They're very ardently opposed (as far as I know) to working with authoritarian socialists (i.e. Leninists) of any kind.
Umm...that's not sectarianism. [/b]
How is it not?

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by FoB+February 23, 2007 09:49 pm--> (FoB @ February 23, 2007 09:49 pm)
[email protected] 22, 2007 10:36 pm
They're very ardently opposed (as far as I know) to working with authoritarian socialists (i.e. Leninists) of any kind.
Umm...that's not sectarianism. [/b]
ha

haha

hahaha

he implied that RAAN is not sectarian

:lol: that is great.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 08:25 pm
Anarion: please stop with the slandering, or are you not smart enough to understand marx's definition of a state?

yeah, proletarian suppression of bourgieousie counterrevolutionary elements.


Luis: I'm very happy you are able to pick out a handful of actions you don't like that RAAN affiliates have done and generalize the entire network by these individual actions. It really shows you have a brain on your shoulder. Of course, that still doesn't touch on RAANs work with the impoverished, environment, youth, prisoners, etc.

Then don't FUCKING advertise it as some hardbody revolutionary action, if it doesn't reflect the organization as whole.

Most revolutionary groups do the good things you have listed, however most groups don't pride themselves on the actions which you say don't reflect the "entire network."

If they don't, then why the fuck do they happen so often?


Leninists always have trouble wrapping their heads around decentralized activity. Their inability to exist without a personality cult dictating directives really impedes with the understanding of the nature of the network. I would apologize, but you are probably too dense to get it.

yeah whatever, because the so called "decentralized" organization of RAAN has done so much good for the movement as a whole? Maybe next time you'll remember to toilet paper Ralph's house as well as egg it.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 08:25 pm
Luis: I'm very happy you are able to pick out a handful of actions you don't like that RAAN affiliates have done and generalize the entire network by these individual actions. It really shows you have a brain on your shoulder. Of course, that still doesn't touch on RAANs work with the impoverished, environment, youth, prisoners, etc.
Those actions were RAAN actions. Either the organisation is responsible for them, and should take the criticism such actions spark, or the organisation is, well, irresponsible. Sorry, you cannot take credit for the good things you do if you do not take responsibility for the bad things you do.

That's what RAANites are doing: they don't defend politically those actions, nor they accept criticism of the; instead, they forsake responsibility.


Leninists always have trouble wrapping their heads around decentralized activity.

Maybe. I wouldn't know, I am not one of them.


Their inability to exist without a personality cult dictating directives really impedes with the understanding of the nature of the network.

I am sorry; what is the personality I cultuate, and how is he, or she, involved in the discussion of RAANite anti-workers actions?


I would apologize, but you are probably too dense to get it.

Coisas densas não bóiam como merda n'água, chapa.

Luís Henrique

[which doctor]

Originally posted by LiberalHenry+February 23, 2007 09:25 pm--> (LiberalHenry @ February 23, 2007 09:25 pm)
Originally posted by FoB+February 23, 2007 09:49 pm--> (FoB @ February 23, 2007 09:49 pm)
[email protected] 22, 2007 10:36 pm
They're very ardently opposed (as far as I know) to working with authoritarian socialists (i.e. Leninists) of any kind.
Umm...that's not sectarianism. [/b]
ha

haha

hahaha

he implied that RAAN is not sectarian

:lol: that is great. [/b]
What is your defintion of sectarianism? Is it hostility against other members of the left? I am hostile against liberals, does that make me a sectarian? Sectarianism is discrimination against people for personal reasons within a certain ideological boundary. The ideological boundary with has been set by RAAN is anti-state and anti-capitalism. Anything else beyond that boundary is fair game to be attacked based on ideological reasons.


LiberalHenry
That is a fantastic answer though, and as we all know, revolution starts with egging Ralph Nadar.

The funny thing is that is coming from an RCPer who idolizes the glorious Bob Avakian who will lead the global proletariat to revolution, all the from comfort of a chic cafe on the left bank :lol:

It's stupid to criticize an action for not being "revolutionary enough." You sell fucking RCP newsletters! If anything those serve to further alienate the proletariat from truly living their lives and liberating themselves. Not all "actions" are going to fit in your narrow confines of what is revolutionary or not.

[Fawkes]

Sectarianism is discrimination against people for personal reasons within a certain ideological boundary.
Well doesn't that contradict what you said to me about how what RAAN does is not sectarian?

[which doctor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 10:45 pm

Sectarianism is discrimination against people for personal reasons within a certain ideological boundary.
Well doesn't that contradict what you said to me about how what RAAN does is not sectarian?
Well, how is RAAN sectarian?

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by Fawkes
They're very ardently opposed (as far as I know) to working with authoritarian socialists (i.e. Leninists) of any kind.

[chimx]

Lets see if I can wade through the insults for some actual things to reply to. Please bare in mind that someone posted this in learning because they were curious. I tried to answer some legitimate questions and the reply was some hostile bullshit. Lovely.


And you have trouble wrapping your heads around the fact that it is not an "either-or" decision between your reactionary actions under the guise of "that's not our fault, we're decentralized", or an overbearing personality cult dictating directives. But wait, I forgot: black-and-white thinking is soooo marxist.

Your problem is that you keep calling them "my" actions, or "RAANs" actions, as if one cell or individual speaks to my own beliefs. The fundamental organizational principle of RAAN is to provide a set of general principles and give individuals full autonomy to act in a manner that *they* see fit as obtaining these principle goals: namely anti-capitalism and anti-statism.

Many people, such as Luis and yourself to name a few, keep describing RAAN as an organization, and this is what trips most people up. RAAN is *not* an organization. It is an acronym for the Red & Anarchist Action *Network*. It is a network of autonomous groups and individuals working under a common set of guiding principles. (hasn't anybody noticed I always say "affiliates" instead of "members". rest assured, I do that on purpose)

As such it makes more sense to think of RAAN as a *tendency* within the anti-capitalist milieu. Or at the very least, that is generally what RAAN affiliates strive for. This tendency is attempting to bridge divides between anarchists and anti-statist communists via activity. Instead of bickering on internet forums the merits of dead theorists, RAAN hopes to united these anti-capitalists within a community of mutual aid. It is a commonly held belief of the network that the bonds cemented through mutual aid and common activity are far stronger than any sort of ideological compromising.

If it helps, think of RAAN as having a similar model as the ELF (In advance: I don't care what your opinions are about ELF actions, that isn't my point. Look it as an organization framework only). There is a set of guiding principles, and "members" carry out actions in the name of the ELF without knowing other "members". The ELF becomes defined by the activity of the "membership" as a whole through activity.

But RAAN is somewhat more complicated than that. While it has a remains an abstract "tendency" that anti-capitalists can identify with (simiarly with the ELF model), it also works to have a physical presence. Unlike the ELF, RAAN affiliates carry out "legal" actions as well, and don't need to shroud of anonymity required by the ELF. RAAN is, after all, also a *network*. As such, it simultaneously acts as a resource for affiliates.

Because it is not an organization, it makes little sense to look at the organizations history, action by action. The only valid criticism I have ever heard about RAAN has come from TragicClown, and that criticized this organization model. Unless you are criticizing RAAN's model or the founding document, I don't see how you can make such insulting comments on the network *as a whole* and think they hold water.


They're very ardently opposed (as far as I know) to working with authoritarian socialists (i.e. Leninists) of any kind.

We are also opposed to working with Democrats and Greens. Does that also make us sectarian? Your definition of sectarian is extremely arbitrary.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 04:16 am
The only valid criticism I have ever heard about RAAN has come from TragicClown, and that criticized this organization model. Unless you are criticizing RAAN's model or the founding document, I don't see how you can make such insulting comments on the network *as a whole* and think they hold water.
In fact, RAAN is an organisation (what else would fit into an "organisation model", except an organisation?) that revolves around its own organisation. You can't find much about where they stand concerning the outer world, but we have a true overdose of details about how they organise.

This is an organisational disease, and its name is internism.

But where do we see if this "organisation model" is worth anything, is when it comes to practice. And RAAN practices stink of mindless sectarianism, sexual conservatism, and cop-like behaviour towards other leftist organisations.

Do those things stem out from the "organisation model"? Or at least, is the "organisation model" unable to deal with those things? So it seems. And, more, it seems that the "organisation model" is an excuse for tolerating counter-revolutionary activities within the frame of the "network".

When any other organisation does shit, we call them on that, and they either stand by the shit they made, or they acknowledge they were wrong. When RAAN makes shit, it doesn't either, it shrouds itself under the pretense of being a "network".

Well, it doesn't take a webster to tell you that a network is made of threads, and that if some threads are rotten, the network will quite probably wear itself out too soon.

Luís Henrique

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Fawkes+--> (Fawkes)They're very ardently opposed (as far as I know) to working with authoritarian socialists (i.e. Leninists) of any kind.[/b]

Thats not sectarianism, its simply being true to the networks politics. As has been stated repeatedly if 'leninists' are willing to work within the autonomous non-hierarchal politics of the network (i.e. within the principals and directions of RAAN), they are welcome to participate.



Originally posted by LH+--> (LH)When RAAN makes shit, it doesn't either, it shrouds itself under the pretense of being a "network".[/b]

FFS, its not a 'shroud' ---> its material reality. You can keep repeating your bullshit and i and other people who are a part of the network will keep correcting you.

Chimx made the function of RAAN explicit in his last post, it is absurd to just dismiss everything he's said (as someone who is actually a part of the network) and say, 'nahhh, i know how you operate! I know RAAN better than RAANistas know it themselves!' which is precisely what you're doing.

You seem to be incapable of accepting that RAAN is not what you think it is; ie. that as a network, there is no such thing as a 'RAAN' action (in a total sense) - that rather, RAAN is the name of a network (RAAN) of autonomous groups - with each group conducting its own actions within the principals and directions of the network, where no one affiliate represents all the others in words or in praxis.


[email protected]
ou can't find much about where they stand concerning the outer world

Try reading the principals and directions of RAAN. As for 'RAAN positions' on current events/issues etc., of course you will not find official 'RAAN positions' on these things because RAAN is not a monolithic organisation, there is no party line coming down from the top, what you will find however is stuff like emotional poverty, a zine put about by a RAAN affiliate outlining the POV of that affiliate.


LH

but we have a true overdose of details about how they organise.

Which would make sense if you were capable of understanding non-hierarchal organisation; i.e. there is an emphasis on how we can build this broad network of autonomous libertarian communist groups as a tendancy -> whilst maintaing each groups autonomy, how we organise within the network is intrinsically linked to the politics of RAAN generally). It really not very difficult - and you're an intelligent person, but for some reason your approach seems to be to stick your fingers in your ears and scream 'opposite day!!!'

[Fawkes]

As has been stated repeatedly if 'leninists' are willing to work within the autonomous non-hierarchal politics of the network (i.e. within the principals and directions of RAAN), they are welcome to participate.
After being threatened with beatings in the streets....

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Fawkes+February 24, 2007 04:13 pm--> (Fawkes @ February 24, 2007 04:13 pm)
As has been stated repeatedly if 'leninists' are willing to work within the autonomous non-hierarchal politics of the network (i.e. within the principals and directions of RAAN), they are welcome to participate.
After being threatened with beatings in the streets.... [/b]
Are you taking the piss?

How many leninists have RAANistas actually beat in the streets? Hmm??? Its rhetoric, and something chimx had already addressed in this thread:


chimx

Well first of all, you are misquoting the pamphlet. It says "beat you in the street." That is an *independent text* not written by RAAN, but by an author who affiliates themselves with RAAN. It is not an official RAAN document/statement/declaration/etc.

That said, if you read the entire flyer, it should be fairly obvious that his was meant as hyperbole. At the time of its authorship, RAAN was being attacked by anarchists for embracing Marxists into the group. We were accused of being a Leninist organization and all sorts of stupid shit. This flyer was written in 2003 as a result of the author being fed up with the accusations. Yes RAAN is hostile to Leninist praxis and ideology, but RAAN is not necessarily hostile to Leninists on an individual basis. It simply depends on the actions of those individuals.

Moreover, i dont know any RAANistas who would actually beat up a leninist for being a leninist; i never seen or heard of it being discussed, you're making a mountain out of a mole hill, and im mystified as to why.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 03:39 am
What is your defintion of sectarianism?

um the dictionary's, its great to see you know how to copy and paste, so um how am I a liberal? Or do you regularly just throw word out you have no understanding of and hope for the best

It's you're organization that is egging ralph nadar. That is expected of like some democratic youth group.


Is it hostility against other members of the left? I am hostile against liberals, does that make me a sectarian?

liberals aren't leftists.


Sectarianism is discrimination against people for personal reasons within a certain ideological boundary. The ideological boundary with has been set by RAAN is anti-state and anti-capitalism. Anything else beyond that boundary is fair game to be attacked based on ideological reasons.

you don't have an ideology. You claim to be for marxism and the dictatorship of the proletariat and then do Nazi like actions to other communists to prove you're anarchist.

That's the type of shit 13 year old bourgieosie punks from the suburbs do.

How do you expect to excersise the DoP and Marxism without a state? I refer you to Anarion's post. It debunks that so called "raanismo or muerto" bullshit.


The funny thing is that is coming from an RCPer who idolizes the glorious Bob Avakian who will lead the global proletariat to revolution, all the from comfort of a chic cafe on the left bank :lol:

I don't idolize Bob Avakian and Bob Avakian isn't in chic cafes or whatever he is organizing a proletarian based communist party. There is a reason why the RCP is one of the most active communist parties in the states, and that's because it has a strong leadership and that attracts people, because a revolution needs leadership, every revolution to date has proved that. The ones that haven't had leadership become just a riot and are suppressed quickly.


It's stupid to criticize an action for not being "revolutionary enough." You sell fucking RCP newsletters! If anything those serve to further alienate the proletariat from truly living their lives and liberating themselves.

wtf are you talking about? Actually alot of supporters were first attracted to the party by the message conveyed in the paper. Myself included.


Not all "actions" are going to fit in your narrow confines of what is revolutionary or not.


Okay then forgive me for thinking that attacking another revolutionary groups outlet is not revolutionay :rolleyes:

piece of shit

[Module]

Okay then forgive me for thinking that attacking another revolutionary groups outlet is not revolutionay :rolleyes:

piece of shit
The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend, and it would be stupid to treat them that way.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I can't stand seeing shit like "What is your definition of x?" We don't create our own definitions for things.

Sectarianism has a definition, which is putting the doctrine or program of your sect above the interest of the working class. That's what it means.

[Jazzratt]

What's brilliant about raanite mouthbreathers is that as soon as you point out one of their stupid, moralistic or sectarian actions they throw their hands up in the air and say "It's nothing to do with me, we're a tendency" or "We're a network, fuck all to do with me.". But then they start to defend the organisation by saying they do parkour ( :lol: ), work with the homless and all that jazz, they suddenly become a real organisation rather than just a banner under which insane morons can rally.

Personally I find the way in which raan is organised silly in the extreme, I don't see what they hope to achieve, in terms of revolutionary action, if they have no central leadership or decision making body to, well, decide upon a direction that the organisation needs to take. Without this kind of centre all they have to guide their petty acts of vandalism are whim and an incredibly vague document.

Finally, the fact they do not deny primmies and their disgusting apologists "membership", or whatever the fuck their word for it is, is something any progressive should be worried about.

In short, raan are a group of reactionaries and can FUCK OFF.

[apathy maybe]

Firstly, it is obvious that some people can't grasp what RAAN is all about. His reference by analogy to the ELF is a good one. There is no organisation as such, there is an umbrella grouping of certain groups who work autonomously. They share certain common goals and beliefs. They work independently. What is so hard to grasp with that? Arguing that it won't lead to revolution is irrelevant for the discussion.

On the issue of sectarian, I offer this. CdL has a definition which, being an anarchist, I believe doesn't make RAAN sectarian. Why? Because I don't think that Leninist organisations are good for the working class (or in fact any class apart from themselves once they have taken power).

So, to shift the focus onto the various Leninist organisations, you could easily argue that they are being sectarian.
One, by not admitting anarchists into their ranks (just as RAAN doesn't admit Leninists into their ranks, they do, you just have to follow the "party line").
Two, by having so many organisations ("RCP is one of the most active communist parties in the states"), you are being sectarian by not having a single party that everyone who is interested can turn to (see also the thread about the person moving from one party to another).
Three, Leninists routinely act derogatorily towards anarchists, thus being sectarian.

So, RAAN are not sectarian because the network is willing to work with Leninists who accept the networks principles. Affiliated groups may or maynot be sectarian, you have to ask them.

[chimx]

What's brilliant about raanite mouthbreathers is that as soon as you point out one of their stupid, moralistic or sectarian actions they throw their hands up in the air and say "It's nothing to do with me, we're a tendency" or "We're a network, fuck all to do with me.". But then they start to defend the organisation by saying they do parkour ( laugh.gif ), work with the homless and all that jazz, they suddenly become a real organisation rather than just a banner under which insane morons can rally.

You misunderstand. Of course there is responsibility and accountability, but it should be directed towards the affiliated collective. For example, you have a problem with a collective in Modesto called RAAN-FP for what they did to an allegedly sexist "men only" store (if it was "white only" would there have been similar complaints?). RAAN-FP is the physical collective that did that action. RAAN affiliates living in Australia have fuck-all to do with it, yet you try to generalize the activity of one autonomous group towards the entirety of the network. It is obvious that it is an attempt to discredit the work of anarchists and communists as a whole--throughout the network, but I fail to see the logic. Cells are autonomous. The RAAN P&D doesn't say to smash "men only" clubs. It says sexism sucks and it is the responsibility of autonomous affiliates to figure out how to destroy sexism.

Accountability exists.


So, RAAN are not sectarian because the network is willing to work with Leninists who accept the networks principles. Affiliated groups may or maynot be sectarian, you have to ask them.

Primitivism is a fuckin' irrelevant ideology. Who cares. Are you really worried that there will be an anti-civilization mass movement in the near future, tearing down telephone poles and whatnot? RAAN isn't going to go otu of its way to fuckin' find every marginal irrelevant political ideology and say, "you are okay, no no no, you aren't ok". It isn't in the interest of the network. The network is about having anti-capitalists and anti-statists working together. That's it.

[More Fire for the People]

There's a real poverty of theory amongst the RAAN organisation. I think they mis-understand gender dynamics and how to integrate the anti-capitalist movement. They also lack a sense of self-criticism, as Luis Henrique put it a lack of 'responsibility'.

That said I believe RAAN is an improvement over past organisational models. IMO, political activity should be centred upon collective formation and networking collectives.

[chimx]

They also lack a sense of self-criticism

Lacking self-criticism and ideological refinement is something that I don't think RAAN or any other revolutionary leftist group can afford to do at the present moment. We live in a time when being a leftist means voting for John Kerry. There has to be greater activity to re-legitimize the radical left.

This is just my opinion. There are some RAAN affiliates that think an ideological refinement is necessary.

[YSR]

I'm really attracted to the RAAN model. One thing which I continually find is the lack of a bridge between anarchists and anti-state communists. Nice to see that these folks are out trying to get over that and organize the working class.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by Fawkes+February 23, 2007 11:02 pm--> (Fawkes @ February 23, 2007 11:02 pm)
Fawkes
They're very ardently opposed (as far as I know) to working with authoritarian socialists (i.e. Leninists) of any kind. [/b]
They have all the right in the world to be ardently opposed to authoritarian socialists. They do not fit the ideological boundary RAAN sets which is anti-capitalist and anti-statist.

[KC]

You misunderstand. Of course there is responsibility and accountability, but it should be directed towards the affiliated collective. For example, you have a problem with a collective in Modesto called RAAN-FP for what they did to an allegedly sexist "men only" store (if it was "white only" would there have been similar complaints?).

So this store didn't allow women into it? I highly doubt that's true. I'd be willing to bet that it's just a place that women wouldn't go (you know, kind of like a men's clothing store such as the Men's Wearhouse). However, even if that was true, what does kicking in a door do? If you wanted to solve the problem of that store only letting in men, you could easily just get a woman to sue them. Of course, this wouldn't solve the problem of sexism in society, but it fulfills the same shallow objective of those that kicked the door in, and it would have been much more effective. In short: they're idiots.

[which doctor]

It's you're organization that is egging ralph nadar. That is expected of like some democratic youth group.
For one thing, it's not my organization that is egging Ralph Nadar. I am in no way affiliated with RAAN. Besides, egging Ralph Nadar is fucking hilarious! It exposes how ridiculous bourgeois politicains are. Or maybe you just get a little sensitive when people dis Ralph Nader, after all he is a supporter of an RCP front, the WCW.


liberals aren't leftists.
Well, if the RCP is leftist, than I am not.


you don't have an ideology. You claim to be for marxism and the dictatorship of the proletariat and then do Nazi like actions to other communists to prove you're anarchist.
Anti-statist anti-capitalist.

ps. lol @ nazi like actions


How do you expect to excersise the DoP and Marxism without a state? I refer you to Anarion's post. It debunks that so called "raanismo or muerto" bullshit.
http://cd.redapollo.org/viewtopic.php?t=452


I don't idolize Bob Avakian and Bob Avakian isn't in chic cafes or whatever he is organizing a proletarian based communist party.
:rolleyes:


There is a reason why the RCP is one of the most active communist parties in the states, and that's because it has a strong leadership and that attracts people, because a revolution needs leadership, every revolution to date has proved that. The ones that haven't had leadership become just a riot and are suppressed quickly.
"Activity" and "Membership" don't prove anything. The democrats are "active" and have lots of members, so does the republican party. Hell, selling newspapers and leading marches is hardly what I would call "class action."


wtf are you talking about? Actually alot of supporters were first attracted to the party by the message conveyed in the paper. Myself included.
The underclasses don't want to be led in some glorious communist revolution lead by Bob Avakian. They want to lead their fucking selves!


Okay then forgive me for thinking that attacking another revolutionary groups outlet is not revolutionay
The "revolutionaryness" of the RCP is certainly debatable.

[Everyday Anarchy]

So this store didn't allow women into it? I highly doubt that's true. I'd be willing to bet that it's just a place that women wouldn't go (you know, kind of like a men's clothing store such as the Men's Wearhouse). However, even if that was true, what does kicking in a door do? If you wanted to solve the problem of that store only letting in men, you could easily just get a woman to sue them. Of course, this wouldn't solve the problem of sexism in society, but it fulfills the same shallow objective of those that kicked the door in, and it would have been much more effective. In short: they're idiots.What a revolutionary leftist, you are! :ph34r:

[Vanguard1917]

'Raan' is obviously no more than a collection of a few handfuls of childish youth 'active' on a few internet forums (like this one). You only have to look at their 'propaganda' (http://www.redanarchist.org/propaganda/index.html) to see for yourself the shocking consequences of unchecked idiocy.

Stuff like this (http://redanarchist.org/propaganda/fucklenin.pdf) are only produced by lonely little excited pussies behind a computer screen. It's the political equilavent of a hyperactive and confused child throwing a tantrum. By definition, such people can never be relevant to society, precisely because they will always remain just a bunch of lonely little excited pussies behind a computer screen.

[chimx]

Childish youth? Well I'm glad we are back to insult slinging. It really is telling of your own maturity level.

Or perhaps you are genuinely surprised that anarchists don't get along with Leninists? If so, I'm sorry that RAAN was the one that had to break the bad news to you. (Try not to shoot the messenger though).

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 06:07 pm



For one thing, it's not my organization that is egging Ralph Nadar. I am in no way affiliated with RAAN. Besides, egging Ralph Nadar is fucking hilarious! It exposes how ridiculous bourgeois politicains are. Or maybe you just get a little sensitive when people dis Ralph Nader, after all he is a supporter of an RCP front, the WCW.

Bullshit. You suck RAAN's dick at every corner. I couldn't care less if it was Ralph Nader or anyone, the point is that RAAN makes every petty bourgieousie action they do seem like some great step towards the anarchist revolution by posting it here as a "communique from the RAAN-False Proletariat" or whatever.



Well, if the RCP is leftist, than I am not.

we already know you're not a leftist


ps. lol @ nazi like actions

yes lol Omg lmao lolz because before RAAN only Combat 18 and the BNP and NSM would attack Communist outlets or proclaim that they will beat communists in the streets.


http://cd.redapollo.org/viewtopic.php?t=452

Read Marx period.


The underclasses don't want to be led in some glorious communist revolution lead by Bob Avakian. They want to lead their fucking selves

since when do you speak for the proletariat as a whole??? Since you joined the petty bourgieousie RAAN. Gotcha. :rolleyes:

As a matter of fact the proletariat looks for strong leadership to counter the leadership of the reactionaries, you don't know how many people in proletarian neighborhoods complain about a lack of leadership to organize and to be at the vanguard, the front, of the movement. That is why Leninism is the only ideology which has been taken up by the workers consistantly even today, because it leadership is key and has been proven so.


The "revolutionaryness" of the RCP is certainly debatable.

no that's just your movement.

[Forward Union]

Let me make this clear; Calm the fuck down, this discussion is getting pointless and I'll just have to lock the thread and suggest warning points. Because at the moment theres absiolutely nothing constructive going on in this debate.

:angry:

[More Fire for the People]

Would a member of RAAN like to clarify the meaning of 'fucking maniacs hell-bent on destroying civilization' in the Capitalism Makes Us Sick poster because I've gotta tell you, I kind of enjoy not having polio.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 06:07 pm
The "revolutionaryness" of the RCP is certainly debatable.
Of course it is debatable.

And so is RAAN's.

The difference is, if I choose an action of the RCP and question its character, they will either defend it as an action that is somehow related to their aims, or they will have to concede that the action was wrong - in which case they become compromised to change their practices.

But if I question the character of any RAAN action, they will deny responsibility for it, under the notion that they are a "network" instead of an organisation. Even if such actions are clearly reactionary, as some of them are.

So, the debate of RCP "revolutionaryness" can be a rational debate; they can convince me, I can convince them, or we may agree to disagree. Such debate is impossible on RAAN's "revolutionaryness", though.

Luís Henrique

[chimx]

But if I question the character of any RAAN action, they will deny responsibility for it, under the notion that they are a "network" instead of an organisation. Even if such actions are clearly reactionary, as some of them are.

Like I said, being network of autonomous cells, the network as an entity can neither condemn nor condone actions. It is just the hubs (redanarchist.org) job to report on what has happened when we become aware with information.

If you have a problem with an action, you should direct your comments to the autonomous cell, as they are the responsible parties.


Would a member of RAAN like to clarify the meaning of 'fucking maniacs hell-bent on destroying civilization' in the Capitalism Makes Us Sick poster because I've gotta tell you, I kind of enjoy not having polio.

Anti-civilization is not solely used by primitivists. Some people use it to refer to class society, industrial capitalism, etc.

But those flyers were not produced by RAAN, they were produced by a RAAN affiliate. Get it?

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 04:48 pm
Like I said, being network of autonomous cells, the network as an entity can neither condemn nor condone actions. It is just the hubs (redanarchist.org) job to report on what has happened when we become aware with information.
Yes, that is exactly the problem. It is a wrong thing to do, wrong and irresponsible. That's why RAAN is useless as a working class struggle organisation.


If you have a problem with an action, you should direct your comments to the autonomous cell, as they are the responsible parties.

As I am not aware of how to contact the "autonomous cell", nor do I think I should be, out of safety considerations, can you please tell your "autonomous" comrade that egging Ralph Nader, and vandalising RCP bookstores and nightclubs is unacceptable behaviour for leftists? Either that, or tell me that you aren't going to do this because you agree with those things?


Anti-civilization is not solely used by primitivists. Some people use it to refer to class society, industrial capitalism, etc.

Who uses "civilisation" as a synonim for class society or industrial capitalism?


But those flyers were not produced by RAAN, they were produced by a RAAN affiliate. Get it?

Yes, we got it. We just think it is not a valid excuse.

Do you, personally, endorse such flyer, or not?

Luís Henrique

[apathy maybe]

OK, I was going to respond to each point individually, but my response does basically boil down to this.

Not everyone is a Leninist, not everyone supports "democratic" centralism, not everyone thinks that a network is a bad idea.

There are obviously two distinct world views at odds here. One which thinks that everyone must be accountable to the centre and respect the central position. And another that says that the central position shall be basic, and that people can work as they will with in those basic principles.

LH, it doesn't matter what chimx thinks of those flyers or the various affiliates actions, get over it. If you understand how the network works, then you should understand this. Not everyone wants or likes large monolithic organisations with a single policy that all members must adhere to. (In fact, such organisations are to my mind undemocratic, despite what anyone may say. You prevent people from having their own opinion.)

[chimx]

Yes, that is exactly the problem. It is a wrong thing to do, wrong and irresponsible. That's why RAAN is useless as a working class struggle organisation.

Could you please elaborate on what is wrong with autonomous cells? You keep saying that it is wrong, but I'm still unclear what is wrong with decentralization. As has been explained, accountability exists, just equally on a decentralized level. Centralized accountability exists, but is limited to the organizational model, or the basic principles of the Principles & Direction. So what is anti-worker about decentralized anti-capitalist units?


As I am not aware of how to contact the "autonomous cell", nor do I think I should be, out of safety considerations, can you please tell your "autonomous" comrade that egging Ralph Nader, and vandalising RCP bookstores and nightclubs is unacceptable behaviour for leftists? Either that, or tell me that you aren't going to do this because you agree with those things?

Your best bet for getting in touch with a RAAN cell would be to post some information on the hub website's forums. I can't guarantee that your message will be heard, but it is your best bet.

However, If you do decide to voice criticism of any particular action, I strongly suggest you do so respectfully if you want people to listen. If you hop on and start saying, "zomg, you are anti-worker and irresponsible, fuck you," I doubt if too many people will be interested in hearing what you have to say. Instead, explain what you think as being potentially harmful, and ways to improve upon what you see as being a mistake in the future.


Who uses "civilisation" as a synonim for class society or industrial capitalism?

Not myself, but some folk. I know "nachie" does, and he is certainly not a primitivist.


Do you, personally, endorse such flyer, or not?

I probably wouldn't use the flyer because that isn't the kind of language I like using. Personally I find it confusing. But I also understand what people are trying to say with that flyer, and I support their underlying message (i.e.: capitalism sucks).

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by chimx+February 26, 2007 11:53 am--> (chimx @ February 26, 2007 11:53 am)
Do you, personally, endorse such flyer, or not?

I probably wouldn't use the flyer because that isn't the kind of language I like using. Personally I find it confusing. But I also understand what people are trying to say with that flyer, and I support their underlying message (i.e.: capitalism sucks). [/b]
Ditto.


AM
There are obviously two distinct world views at odds here. One which thinks that everyone must be accountable to the centre and respect the central position. And another that says that the central position shall be basic, and that people can work as they will with in those basic principles.

LH, it doesn't matter what chimx thinks of those flyers or the various affiliates actions, get over it. If you understand how the network works, then you should understand this. Not everyone wants or likes large monolithic organisations with a single policy that all members must adhere to. (In fact, such organisations are to my mind undemocratic, despite what anyone may say. You prevent people from having their own opinion.)


Again ditto, it seems that a lot of RAAN's detractors do not accept or understand (one or the other, maybe both) the organisational model of RAAN - that is the idea of a bunch of autonomous groups coming together under a broad ideological banner, libertarian communism as 'RAAN' - so each group can support each other whereever possible, sharing resources/knowledge/whatever ---> mutual aid; all to the purpose of helping to build an autonomous movement (or perhaps the possibility of one) of working class and dispossessed peoples for the overthrow of capitalism and the state.

Whether this is because of gaps in knowledge/understanding stemming from an alien ideological outlook, lack of experience working in libertarian communist/autonomous organisations/networks, the result is perhaps the same - a complete misunderstanding of RAAN broadly. Misunderstanding to the point that many of these detractors construe the organisation of the netwrok itself as being some kind of 'big lie', a smoke and mirrors campaign perpetuated to eschew accountability for the supposed 'reactionary' actions of affiliated collectives.

On the face of it that makes little sense, a network was formed (and continues to be formed), organised, principals and directions drafted, debated and so forth --- all to avoid responsibility for a bunch of actions that were yet to happen...

A much more logical, and accurate understanding is that autonomous organising is central to the RAAN tendancy and most importantly to the people who make up its affiliates, that it could be no other way. A network of autonomous libcom collectives.

[Chicano Shamrock]

I really don't understand what people don't get about RAAN. I recently found out about RAAN and I can say I pretty much understand what is happening and why RAAN can't be blamed for it's affiliates actions. I don't think it is that hard to grasp the concept. It is a loose gathering of different groups. It is not a centralized group.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 25, 2007 11:31 pm
Not everyone is a Leninist, not everyone supports "democratic" centralism, not everyone thinks that a network is a bad idea.
Of course not everyone is a Leninist. I am not one, for starters.


There are obviously two distinct world views at odds here. One which thinks that everyone must be accountable to the centre and respect the central position. And another that says that the central position shall be basic, and that people can work as they will with in those basic principles.


No, the world cannot be reduced to that dilemma.

The problem is not accountability to "the centre" or respect towards "the central position". The problem is accountability to the outer side, which is not provided by RAAN's "organisation model".

And, of course, if the "basic" central position of RAAN does not help its affiliates to understand that attacking other working class organisations or the means of subsistence of other workers, then such "basic" position is either insufficient or wrong.

But we don't get to discuss it with people who propagandise them here as great revolutionary actions, because "it is a network", so we should direct ourselves to the competent department, which unhappily does not post here.


LH, it doesn't matter what chimx thinks of those flyers or the various affiliates actions, get over it.

Of course it matters, how does the opinion of a comrade about some action does not matter?!


If you understand how the network works, then you should understand this.

I understand how it works, just like I understand how the "democratic" centralism of the RCP works. It is just that I think that both are wrong.


Not everyone wants or likes large monolithic organisations with a single policy that all members must adhere to.

I don't care for their size, and their internal functioning is their business. I want them to take notice that I find their actions reactionary and anti-worker, without their dodging the responsibility for such actions.

That is the problem.

Luís Henrique

[chimx]

But we don't get to discuss it with people who propagandise them here as great revolutionary actions, because "it is a network", so we should direct ourselves to the competent department, which unhappily does not post here.

I have told you the best way of discussing the issue the collective in question. I had been curious if you would have taken the time to make your criticisms heard and make a positive contribution, but it is clear that instead you merely want to wax indignant on this message board, kick up a fuss, and in the end, do nothing.

See: The No Bullshit Policy (http://redanarchist.org/texts/praxis/2/nobullshit.html).

[Nachie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 02:33 am
Then don't FUCKING advertise it as some hardbody revolutionary action
mmmmmmm, hard bodies.

[getfreedropout]

Originally posted by Fawkes+February 23, 2007 03:32 am--> (Fawkes @ February 23, 2007 03:32 am)
Red [email protected] 22, 2007 10:28 pm
i like the basic concept of it. but this (http://www.redanarchist.org/propaganda/makesussick.pdf) pamphlet is retarded.

they hate medicine, technology, art, and unions? [/b]
Yes, I fucking hate medicine, art, technology, and unions.

This world makes me sick, and I'm doing my best to turn my sickness into a weapon and fucking destroy it, the self-activity of the exploited and dispossessed willing!!

[getfreedropout]

I do hope someday that people involved in RAAN are responsible for extreme acts of extremity against Leninists and other cults who defend the left wing of capital. Nothing can contain the fury of the exploited! Nothing!

[apathy maybe]

getfreedropout: I wonder, do you really think that Leninists are the "left wing of capital" or defend such?

Also, what is your position on technology generally?

Thanks for your replies.

[Redmau5]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2007 05:21 am
I do hope someday that people involved in RAAN are responsible for extreme acts of extremity against Leninists and other cults who defend the left wing of capital. Nothing can contain the fury of the exploited! Nothing!
And people call Trots sectarian. :rolleyes:

Asshat.

[Forward Union]

locked

Send a pm to Chimx if you have any legitimate questions about RAAN