So What Would Happen If The U.s. Lifts The Embargo

[R_P_A_S]

I don't get EXACTLY what would happen if the U.S. lifts it's embargo on Cuba. Cuba trades regardless dont it? with Spain, Russia, Mexico, China, Venezuela.. I mean is the United States THAT BIG of an power that it hurts Cuba this much? perhaps I don't really understate the embargo???

hmmm. what would happened? what would change? and how would Cuba improve? what's the majoer effect on this embargo? If Cuba is free to trade with everyone else.

[RedAnarchist]

I think Cuba has pretty much learnt how to live without the Americans, so personally I don't think it would have that much of an effect - the only real effect would be pissing off the gusanos and Republicans.

[Jesus Christ!]

It would have an enormous market to sell to thus making ( in theory) the people much more wealthy and better off. I'm not an expert on how well wealth is distributed in Cuba but it should have a greta impact on both countries. Also the US wouldn't force what should be the everglades into sugar making fields and could just import the majority of its sugar from Cuba.

[Janus]

Cuba trades regardless dont it? with Spain, Russia, Mexico, China, Venezuela
Yeah, but ships that enter Cuban ports can't enter US ones.


what would happened? what would change? and how would Cuba improve?
Depending on the extent of US trade, Cuba could become just like Vietnam or China.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 12:12 am

Cuba trades regardless dont it? with Spain, Russia, Mexico, China, Venezuela
Yeah, but ships that enter Cuban ports can't enter US ones.


what would happened? what would change? and how would Cuba improve?
Depending on the extent of US trade, Cuba could become just like Vietnam or China.
who would you say has more. or is more socialist than the other? well we can throw China to the curve on this one since they are pretty much capitalist.. so it wouldn't help Cuba on a better path toward socialism? it will just make it more friendlier to capitalism?

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Comrade,

the embargo has drastic effects on Cuba. For example, soap. Cubans have very little soap. This is because around the time and ever since the embargo was slapped on Cuba, companies that attempt to sell soap in or too Cuba have been threatened by the US that they'll lose their US market.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 12:52 am
Comrade,

the embargo has drastic effects on Cuba. For example, soap. Cubans have very little soap. This is because around the time and ever since the embargo was slapped on Cuba, companies that attempt to sell soap in or too Cuba have been threatened by the US that they'll lose their US market.
huh? soap? i mean cant they just make their own? lol sorry to laugh.. but is it that difficult to make soap? im sure there are other alternatives to Dove and Zest

[metalero]

Cubans would have access to a lot more commodities, shortage would cease, means of production would develop and the restrictions on workers control would cease making a full socialist democracy.

[Janus]

huh? soap? i mean cant they just make their own? lol sorry to laugh.. but is it that difficult to make soap? im sure there are other alternatives to Dove and Zest
Forget soap. Think about medical supplies/equipment, mechanical parts (that's why most Cuban cars are vintage antiques), agricultural supplies,etc.

[Janus]

it will just make it more friendlier to capitalism?
Yes, that's usually inevitable when you open your markets to Western trade/investment.

[R_P_A_S]

so....

cuba is stuck? there's no moving forward ? ? ?

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 06:51 pm

it will just make it more friendlier to capitalism?
Yes, that's usually inevitable when you open your markets to Western trade/investment.
But this isn't about Cuba opening its markets to the U.S. It's about the U.S. lifting the embargo, i.e. opening its markets to Cuba.

In fact, if Cuba had access to the U.S. market, that would improve its bargaining position relative to all the other capitalists in the world. As it is, with the world's largest single economy closed off to Cuba, Cuba has fewer options and has to make more concessions in dealins with other capitalists.

Another factor is that the U.S. is closest. When Cuba has to buy and sell from more distant countries, shipping costs are a lot higher.

If the embargo wasn't there, a lot of people from the U.S. would visit Cuba and spend money. And in my experience, people usually come back from visiting Cuba with a more favorable opinion of its revolutionary process than they had before.

And sometimes there are limits on ships going to and from Cuba even being able to stop in the U.S. What else? Products made with Cuban nickel sometimes can't be exported to the U.S. Foreign subsidiaries of U.S. companies can't trade with Cuba. The embargo has a lot of effects on Cuba's trade with third countries.

The embargo's also an obstacle to Cuba accessing the world internet, which is increasingly important to the world economy. And clearly this hurts Cuba's ability to develop scientifically, as well as its efforts to develop a computer software industry.

The U.S. refuses to allow a fiber optic cable between Florida and Cuba, so Cuba has to connect to the internet across an expensive, low-bandwidth satellite link. I did read somewhere recently there's an effort to lay fiber optic cable between Cuba and Venezuela, which would connect Cuba to the worldwide network.

Bottom line: the embargo's there to hurt the Cuban economy. If it wasn't significantly hurting Cuba - it wouldn't be there.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 12:49 am

huh? soap? i mean cant they just make their own? lol sorry to laugh.. but is it that difficult to make soap? im sure there are other alternatives to Dove and Zest
Forget soap. Think about medical supplies/equipment, mechanical parts (that's why most Cuban cars are vintage antiques), agricultural supplies,etc.
On the contrary, that's just a stereotype. There are quite a few older cars, but they have new cars, and top medical equipment. Seems like Cuba puts more resources into mid to heavy commodities rather than light things.


huh? soap? i mean cant they just make their own? lol sorry to laugh.. but is it that difficult to make soap? im sure there are other alternatives to Dove and Zest

There are, and they do. And yeah, soap making products are available. That was just an example.

[Janus]

but they have new cars
I'm sure they have some new cars for government officials but the majority of the population have to deal with pre-1959 ones.


and top medical equipment
They seem to have a very good health care system yet they always seem to be in need of medical supplies.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~ksinghz/cubamed/help.htm
http://www.cubasolidarity.net/uscumedi.html
http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/020606/remedy.shtml

[R_P_A_S]

I don't think my question was answered... for cuba to move forward to Socialism and improve their socialist model... the Embargo being lifted would not help this? It would just hurt it?

right? So how can Cuba move forward towards Socialism...? more. even better

[Noah]

I think that's a what if question.

It could go either way. History tells us that it will turn out to be like Vietnam or China - capitalism wrapped in a red flag.

Or it could set an example to the world, work along side Venezuela and use the extra revenue to speed up quality of life improvement for Cubans and become a socialist beacon.

If the embargo is lifted it depends on how Cuba deals with these new opportunities.

The special thing about Cuba, unlike Vietnam or China (historically and presently I guess), it is more self sufficient and therefore it does not desperately need foreign investment.

If the embargo is lifted trade will improve and so will the tourism industry and so will technology which could be a step forward for socialism but it could just go the other way..

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 12:38 am
I think that's a what if question.

It could go either way. History tells us that it will turn out to be like Vietnam or China - capitalism wrapped in a red flag.

Or it could set an example to the world, work along side Venezuela and use the extra revenue to speed up quality of life improvement for Cubans and become a socialist beacon.

If the embargo is lifted it depends on how Cuba deals with these new opportunities.

The special thing about Cuba, unlike Vietnam or China (historically and presently I guess), it is more self sufficient and therefore it does not desperately need foreign investment.

If the embargo is lifted trade will improve and so will the tourism industry and so will technology which could be a step forward for socialism but it could just go the other way..
for example the new markets the U.S. brings to cuba..shouldn't be control by the U.S.A. like.. lets say tooth paste? what if Colgate wants to have a factory there.. cant Cuba just buy the patent or something. the "recipe" lol.. and own it and make it themselves and sell it or distribute it according? instead of Colgate having offices and employing cheat labor from Cuba?

[BreadBros]

RPAS: to answer your earlier question on the difference between the PRC and Vietnam: there isn't much of one. Vietnam is essentially where China was a few decades ago. Just like China in the 70s, Vietnam is currently emerging from a period of insular isolation and throwing itself head-first into the world capitalist market. I believe it just became or is soon to become a member of the World Trade Organization as well as other international loaning and investment groups.


so....

cuba is stuck? there's no moving forward ? ? ?

If you've read anything by RedStar2000, hes argued that most of the socialist states and revolutions that we've seen as of yet have been of the nature of a transition between feudalism or imperialist-dominated proto-capitalism to full-fledged modern capitalism. These regimes are marked by their adoption of state capitalism as a production model (albeit unconsciously so). The thing about these states is that they are remarkably efficient in building up the means for a modern bourgeois state. I don't think I even have to tell you how amazing China's meteoric economic rise has been. The same goes for Vietnam.

It seems to me like Cuba could fall into the same trap. It has two main roads it can follow right now. It can keep the course it has been going on. Even though I'm a critic of Cuba and state capitalism, in terms of class relations Cuba right now is very democratic and probably one of the best examples of any socialist state in terms of breaking down class. The problem is isolation, it has very very little capital coming into the country so it's incredibly hard for it to build and modernize outside of a few industrial sectors. The other path is opening up trade with the West. This would be great in terms of bringing in capital and allowing more modernization to take place. The problem is, Cuba's society is so fertile and perfect as a new market (well-educated young labor force, good healthcare system, strategic trading location, potential for tourism, etc) that I think the profits to be gained would be so enticing to both Western capitalists and to the Cuban beuracrats (and certain parts of the populace) that it would probably mean the end of socialism there and the introduction of "socialism with Cuban characteristics" if you know what I mean :lol:. I think the right course of action would be a third path...mainly shutting itself off from the US and joining forces with Venezuela and any "Bank of the South", infusing a massive dose of capital, completely modernizing the nation and at the same time have the island undergo a socialist social-revolution to push forward the socialist struggle.


for example the new markets the U.S. brings to cuba..shouldn't be control by the U.S.A. like.. lets say tooth paste? what if Colgate wants to have a factory there.. cant Cuba just buy the patent or something. the "recipe" lol.. and own it and make it themselves and sell it or distribute it according? instead of Colgate having offices and employing cheat labor from Cuba?

Cuba can not just buy the patent because usually it will not be sold to it. It has to sort of "guess" what the recipe is or make up its own. I have no idea what thats like for making tooth paste, lol, but I dont think thats the main problem. It costs $$$$, LOTS OF IT, to build a whole new factory, let alone have a research department studying new formulas and what not. The problem is getting that money, which is a problem perrenially faced by the socialist centrally-planned economies that have existed.

[Floyce White]

Cuba has billions of dollars of trade with the US every month. Since US products cannot be bought with Cuban currency, Cuba obviously earns foreign currencies through trade--such as exporting sugar.

I believe the Cuban telephone company is owned by a Spanish company. There is growing foreign investment in Cuba, particularly in tourism.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

If Cuba had built a Maoist-Hoxhaist economy based on self-reliance it would avoid the drastic effects of the embargo that it now suffers

[Rawthentic]

Thats just not true.

An isolated nation cannot withstand capitalist forces. Just refer to Floyce's post. Its all about material conditions, a "Maoist-Hoxhaist" economy would still be capitalist, as China was and apparently is now.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 03:06 am
If you've read anything by RedStar2000, hes argued that most of the socialist states and revolutions that we've seen as of yet have been of the nature of a transition between feudalism or imperialist-dominated proto-capitalism to full-fledged modern capitalism.
Which he used to both support reformism in the third world and ridicule support for third world revolutions in the central countries...

It is time to say, he was and is just simply WRONG.

Luís Henrique

[JRR883]

From what I'm reading here, it sounds like for socialism to survive, we need capitalist markets. How can one argue that the human need for incentive is a myth, but we need capitalist-produced commodities because they are of inherently higher quality than socialist-produced commodities? Socialism doesn't need more trade with the capitalists, it needs less.

[Janus]

it sounds like for socialism to survive, we need capitalist markets. How can one argue that the human need for incentive is a myth, but we need capitalist-produced commodities because they are of inherently higher quality than socialist-produced commodities? Socialism doesn't need more trade with the capitalists, it needs less.
Market socialism takes away all the core components of socialism and thus in essence is no longer socialist.

[JRR883]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 09:18 pm

it sounds like for socialism to survive, we need capitalist markets. How can one argue that the human need for incentive is a myth, but we need capitalist-produced commodities because they are of inherently higher quality than socialist-produced commodities? Socialism doesn't need more trade with the capitalists, it needs less.
Market socialism takes away all the core components of socialism and thus in essence is no longer socialist.
Would you mind elaborating? I'm interested.