Who Is Ready, Or Closer For Revolution?

[R_P_A_S]

what country or region in the world do you think has an advanced proletariat class and is better equipped for a revolution. violent overthrow of the government does not need to be necessary. just ready as in the class consciousness is there. the resources etc etc.

[R_P_A_S]

how about a country that is far from any super-cappie country and its surrounded by neutral neighbors or pro-socialist countries?

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

Mexico maybe.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 06:26 am
Mexico maybe.
eh.. neighbor to the north wont allow it.

overthrowing the mexican government is already a challenge... add U.S. intervention to that. NO WAY

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

Right, the Americans can turn a love-in into a bloodbath by sheer virtue of spin.

[Delta]

The people seem to be more aware in Latin/south american countries as well as european nations like sweden, france, and spain. But I can't imagine any of these countries currently having class consciousness on the scale required for very fundamental changes. However, with the future environmental, economic, and political pain that will be caused by a capitalist system that is becoming more and more out of place with the demands of modern problems, these places may become more radical, in addition to places that today seem very passive.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 06:44 am
Right, the Americans can turn a love-in into a bloodbath by sheer virtue of spin.
yeah. maybe southern mexico. but they would need support. STILL though the U.S. is the neighbor to the north..

[Hiero]

Originally posted by R_P_A_S+February 22, 2007 05:32 pm--> (R_P_A_S @ February 22, 2007 05:32 pm)
[email protected] 22, 2007 06:26 am
Mexico maybe.
eh.. neighbor to the north wont allow it.

overthrowing the mexican government is already a challenge... add U.S. intervention to that. NO WAY [/b]
Every revolutionary faces the risk of US intervention, nearly every revolution has faced US intervention. However the majority of revolutions defeated the imperialist.

"Now U.S. imperialism is quite powerful, but in reality it isn't. It is very weak politically because it is divorced from the masses of the people and is disliked by everybody and by the American people too. In appearance it is very powerful but in reality it is nothing to be afraid of, it is a paper tiger. Outwardly a tiger, it is made of paper, unable to withstand the wind and the rain. I believe the United States is nothing but a paper tiger." - Mao, U.S Imperialism is a paper tiger, July 14, 1956.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 07:03 am
The people seem to be more aware in Latin/south american countries as well as european nations like sweden, france, and spain. But I can't imagine any of these countries currently having class consciousness on the scale required for very fundamental changes. However, with the future environmental, economic, and political pain that will be caused by a capitalist system that is becoming more and more out of place with the demands of modern problems, these places may become more radical, in addition to places that today seem very passive.
any particular country in Latin America that you have in mind? that's not Venezuela?
and Im not familiar with Spain and France. OR Sweden. I know about these countries.. but not familiar with their strength in numbers... etc.

[bcbm]

France.

[Jesus Christ!]

Originally posted by Hiero+February 22, 2007 07:42 am--> (Hiero @ February 22, 2007 07:42 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 05:32 pm

[email protected] 22, 2007 06:26 am
Mexico maybe.
eh.. neighbor to the north wont allow it.

overthrowing the mexican government is already a challenge... add U.S. intervention to that. NO WAY
Every revolutionary faces the risk of US intervention, nearly every revolution has faced US intervention. However the majority of revolutions defeated the imperialist.

"Now U.S. imperialism is quite powerful, but in reality it isn't. It is very weak politically because it is divorced from the masses of the people and is disliked by everybody and by the American people too. In appearance it is very powerful but in reality it is nothing to be afraid of, it is a paper tiger. Outwardly a tiger, it is made of paper, unable to withstand the wind and the rain. I believe the United States is nothing but a paper tiger." - Mao, U.S Imperialism is a paper tiger, July 14, 1956. [/b]
Mao seems to be underestimating the power of spin in the U.S. Also he obviously wasn't speaking during the current reign of conservatism.

[R_P_A_S]

so theres no region or country we can all agree on?

i think its important that is a country that is close and surrounded by neighbors who would be friendly towards change and socialism. It can't be ultra imperialist like the states. thats why i think Mexico is not a good choice.

it has to have more pro-socialist, or tolerant to socialism neighbors than imperialist neighbors.. nah?

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by black coffee black [email protected] 22, 2007 04:18 pm
France.
In a sense, I agree, however on another level, I think they were much more militant several decades ago and now they are fine with just a very social-democratic state.

On the otherhand, which is why I agree, they did have the lowest amount of people who see capitalism as the shining future.

On topic; what about countries that are currently withgoing communist/socialist revolutions or have strong communist/socialist mass movements like India or Nepal?

[KickMcCann]

Call me crazy....... But I believe the United States, as the most advanced capitalist country in the world, is closer to a proletarian revolution than any other country. Here's why-

-The United States has no great social benefits like universal health-care, universal education, pensions, housing, and vacation rights. Although life is nicer for workers in the countries that maintain such systems, those systems are tools of the ruling class; social buffers meant to hinder and pacify revolutionary tendencies within the populace.

-Openly left-wing ideas, ideologies and movements are actively yet subtly repressed in the United States. They do not exist in the media, in public discourse, in historical education and awareness, or public policy; however they do exist in the minds of the people. By white-washing, banning, or repressing ideas instead of allowing public discourse, you leave ideas no choice but to fester in the underworld of society. When the wall of public order cracks, and it will eventually, left-wing ideas will gush forth from the masses like a broken floodgate, further destroying the wall that held them back.

-Because the US does not entertain an active or popular communist or socialist party, the ideas of communism will not be held back, confined, or regulated by the traditions of an entrenched left-wing party. Yes France, Spain, Italy, South Africa, Venezuela, and many other states all have very conscious and influential left-wing parties, but their very nature as parties direct most revolutionary fervor into party politics, limiting the scope of what socialism/communism can mean. Because the US public has the worst memory in the world and because the USSR collapsed, socialism and communism are rapidly losing the negative connotation and paranoia orginally associated with them. This factor along with the absence of an entrenched party means communistic ideas will florish freely when they arise; new ideas, concepts and solutions will develop without the reservations of a leftist old-guard.

-The United States is ran by an arrogant, ultra-wealthy ruling class that is thoroughly disconnected from reality both in American streets and the world abroad. They will continue to pursue an imperialistic foreign policy without regard to the concept of defeat; despite the debacle in Iraq they will continue to invade and destroy other countries in the name of profit, even under a more suave yet equally tyrannical democrat-party government. The trouble will arise when they are defeated one too many times in military escapades, and when the greed and lust of the bourgoise breaks the back of the American people slaving to make them richer.

-Roughly 50% of Americans between 18-24 years of age are attending or graduating from college and that percentage is constantly increasing. Upon graduation, most college graduates expect to gain management or other high-level positions in their workplace. What will happen when 60-70% of the workforce is demanding management positions and power, yet such positions are only available to 1-6% of them? Lots of resentment against the system will occur when this large, highly-educated group is forced to take orders from a small elite when they themselves feel capable of calling the shots. The only arrangement which can possibly contain this leadership-oriented workforce is a socialist firm with democratic management and ownership. When the socialist workplace is desired and comprehendable, the highly-educated workers will strive for it.

I'm not just dreaming up this factors,We experience them everyday in our workplaces and campuses. Although these factors exist today as disassembeled puzzle pieces, the conditions will arise in which they all come together into a cohesive product--revolution.

[Forward Union]

Germany.

[apathy maybe]

Seeing as other people are posting one line replies without explanation.


Tuvalu.

Why? They have the most to gain by destroying the global capitalist system. With the rise in sea levels that are going to happen because of global warming, they are going under. Therefore Tuvaluans have an obvious incentive to stop global warming. Not only that, they have an incentive to get rid of immigration controls, so they can actually go somewhere when there islands go under.

[Enragé]

as far as developed capitalist countries go, i think France.

The polarisation is there, and there seems to be a lot of support for the more extreme left. Also, there appears to be a willingness to go out on the street and protest, strike if need be, as well as a good link between the workers and students.

[StartToday]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 06:29 am
Call me crazy....... But I believe the United States, as the most advanced capitalist country in the world, is closer to a proletarian revolution than any other country. Here's why-

-The United States has no great social benefits like universal health-care, universal education, pensions, housing, and vacation rights. Although life is nicer for workers in the countries that maintain such systems, those systems are tools of the ruling class; social buffers meant to hinder and pacify revolutionary tendencies within the populace.

-Openly left-wing ideas, ideologies and movements are actively yet subtly repressed in the United States. They do not exist in the media, in public discourse, in historical education and awareness, or public policy; however they do exist in the minds of the people. By white-washing, banning, or repressing ideas instead of allowing public discourse, you leave ideas no choice but to fester in the underworld of society. When the wall of public order cracks, and it will eventually, left-wing ideas will gush forth from the masses like a broken floodgate, further destroying the wall that held them back.

-Because the US does not entertain an active or popular communist or socialist party, the ideas of communism will not be held back, confined, or regulated by the traditions of an entrenched left-wing party. Yes France, Spain, Italy, South Africa, Venezuela, and many other states all have very conscious and influential left-wing parties, but their very nature as parties direct most revolutionary fervor into party politics, limiting the scope of what socialism/communism can mean. Because the US public has the worst memory in the world and because the USSR collapsed, socialism and communism are rapidly losing the negative connotation and paranoia orginally associated with them. This factor along with the absence of an entrenched party means communistic ideas will florish freely when they arise; new ideas, concepts and solutions will develop without the reservations of a leftist old-guard.

-The United States is ran by an arrogant, ultra-wealthy ruling class that is thoroughly disconnected from reality both in American streets and the world abroad. They will continue to pursue an imperialistic foreign policy without regard to the concept of defeat; despite the debacle in Iraq they will continue to invade and destroy other countries in the name of profit, even under a more suave yet equally tyrannical democrat-party government. The trouble will arise when they are defeated one too many times in military escapades, and when the greed and lust of the bourgoise breaks the back of the American people slaving to make them richer.

-Roughly 50% of Americans between 18-24 years of age are attending or graduating from college and that percentage is constantly increasing. Upon graduation, most college graduates expect to gain management or other high-level positions in their workplace. What will happen when 60-70% of the workforce is demanding management positions and power, yet such positions are only available to 1-6% of them? Lots of resentment against the system will occur when this large, highly-educated group is forced to take orders from a small elite when they themselves feel capable of calling the shots. The only arrangement which can possibly contain this leadership-oriented workforce is a socialist firm with democratic management and ownership. When the socialist workplace is desired and comprehendable, the highly-educated workers will strive for it.

I'm not just dreaming up this factors,We experience them everyday in our workplaces and campuses. Although these factors exist today as disassembeled puzzle pieces, the conditions will arise in which they all come together into a cohesive product--revolution.
Great post! I agree with everything you said.

[Red7]

Anythings possible

[which doctor]

France or Greece I think.

They both have rather large and militant working-class student populations.

[RedLenin]

I think that, presupposing there is good leadership, Venezuela, Cuba, and Mexico will be the first countries to undergoe successful proletarian revolutions. A Latin American Socialist Federation will hopefully be set up, which will create a tremendous revolutionary upsurge in other Latin American countries and in the US. The US will be the first imperialist nation to go socialist, in my opinion. It will spread all over the world from there.

Of course, that is me being extremely optimistic. But that is how the class struggle seems to be progressing, with Latin America serving as the vanguard of the international class struggle. The material conditions will exist for revolution as I described above. Whether or not the revolutions will happen will come down to the quality of leadership.

[Rawthentic]

Whether or not the revolutions will happen will come down to the quality of leadership.
You mean the workers correct?

[piet11111]

France germany and brittain are the most likely succesfull candidates.
and they would definitly pull in the rest of the european country's.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 02:23 am

Whether or not the revolutions will happen will come down to the quality of leadership.
You mean the workers correct?
leadership of the masses of workers

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by RedLenin
Venezuela
Do you think that Venezuela will become socialist under someone like Chavez or that the working class will actually revolt against whomever the current "socialist" leader is?

KickMcMann: That was a really good post and I agree with everything that you said.

[Rawthentic]

leadership of the masses of workers
Not a new ruling class of Party elites?

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 23, 2007 05:56 pm
I don't have a crystal ball; but on Mexico: The USSR, China, Viet Nam and Cuba have showed us how to beat back imperialist invasions. It can be done.
southern mexico maybe.

northern mexico is a reactionary wasteland.

i would argue that the best places right now are greece, france, and germany. people there are pretty militant, educated, and they also have the infrastructure to sustain a society based on abundance.

[RedLenin]

Do you think that Venezuela will become socialist under someone like Chavez or that the working class will actually revolt against whomever the current "socialist" leader is?
Chavez will either side with the masses and assist them in dismantling the bourgeois state, which he has claimed, or he will try to retain power and will need to be overthrown. I don't care which way it happens honestly. I do know that the people of Venezuela want socialism with or without Chavez and they are ready to fight to get it.


Not a new ruling class of Party elites?
Definitely not a new ruling class. I certaintly don't want that, I want the self-emancipation of the proletariat. Nor do I want Party "elites". However, I do believe that a revolutionary party (or organization if you don't like the word party), composed of the most advanced and class conscious workers, must exist to lead the revolution. If we seriously want to go from capitalism all the way to communism, we need a leadership that has it's sights on that final goal; communism.

There is leadership in any revolution, and if it is not marxist leadership then the revolution will be lead right back to capitalism. The role of the party is not to become a new ruling class or excersize a dictatorship above the workers. Power must be in the hands of the organizations of the working class; the workers councils. The party's purpose is to lead the workers to take power into their own hands and to defend it. A revolutionary marxist party can lead the workers all the way to communism, because it has a scientific materialist outlook. Without a marxist leadership, the revolution will not get to communism.

So what I was originally refering to was that whether or not a socialist revolution will succeed will depend on the quality of it's marxist leadership. The quality of the vanguard will be decisive. Only a marxist leadership, prepared to lead the struggle to the very end, will bring about the success of a revolution.

[Rawthentic]

Just wanted to clarify that RedLenin. I definitely agree with what you say here. The most class-conscious section of the oppressed must be strong and decisive.

[More Fire for the People]

Latin America and Africa, particularly Mexico and Guinea.

[combat]

Zimbabwe, France, Mexico, Venezuela and Guinea.

[R_P_A_S]

when i go visit mexico i don't really feel the whole "revolution" vibe though. sadly the APPO and the Zapatistas make a small minority of the population

[More Fire for the People]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 09:57 pm
when i go visit mexico i don't really feel the whole "revolution" vibe though. sadly the APPO and the Zapatistas make a small minority of the population
The Chiapas and Oaxaca make up about 7% of Mexico's population. That's like saying a revolutionary New York only makes up a small percentage of the United States. While numerically this might be true insurrections come in waves especially out of revolutionary centers. By the way, like Marmot said, if your talking about northern Mexico then you probably won't get a revolution 'vibe' because it is thoroughly populated with PANistas.

[RGacky3]

With Mexico I get the feeling that Leftists and revolutionaries are becomming much more bold, not that they are the Majority, also they are not contained within electoral politics as they are in many other countries, Anarchist tendancies are the most popular in Mexico, although perhaps not outright.

What I like about Mexico, the culture, is you don't have the vanguardist taint that other leftists have, Mexicos leftist heros are ones like Zapata, not guys like Lenin, and people are much more Humble and accepting, not power hungry and ambitious. But we've seen revolutionary activity in Mexico many times violently suppressed with little if any backlash on the state, so I don't know. But becouse of the raising conceinceness and boldness of the Mexican left, and their ability to appeal to Campesinos and Workers, who knows.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 04:36 am
With Mexico I get the feeling that Leftists and revolutionaries are becomming much more bold, not that they are the Majority, also they are not contained within electoral politics as they are in many other countries, Anarchist tendancies are the most popular in Mexico, although perhaps not outright.

What I like about Mexico, the culture, is you don't have the vanguardist taint that other leftists have, Mexicos leftist heros are ones like Zapata, not guys like Lenin, and people are much more Humble and accepting, not power hungry and ambitious. But we've seen revolutionary activity in Mexico many times violently suppressed with little if any backlash on the state, so I don't know. But becouse of the raising conceinceness and boldness of the Mexican left, and their ability to appeal to Campesinos and Workers, who knows.
so basically Mexico will be split, north and south. I just still think that being so close to the U.S. there's very little chance.

[BreadBros]

I agree with McCan on the US likely being the first. Probably followed shortly by the UK.