Capitalism.

[dannthraxxx]

I'm just curious here as to some of your opinions.


What's so wrong with capitalism?

[Fawkes]

It creates divisions in society. There is no such thing as equality under capitalism because capitalism would not be able to operate if every person was a member of the bourgeois.

I have a lot of other reasons but it's 1:18 in the morning and I'm tired....

[BreadBros]

Capitalism is incompatible with human desires. It produces economic inequality. It forces large swaths of individuals to labor away for the wealth of a select few. It creates misery, warfare, and almost all current social ills. It also has larger effects that are incompatible with humankind's desires and an equitable, enjoyable society. Namely it produces a high degree of alienation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx%27s_theory_of_alienation) in individuals and creates a society and worldview that seperates human desires from our actions and consciousness.

That may seem like an unconvincing answer. It wouldn't be surprising as in our capitalist society the reasoning behind things usually has to have more behind it than simply referring to human desires. However, Marxism (and anarchism) postulate that with the destruction of class-society (a society in which people are seperated into economic classes based on their role in the economy) people will finally be able to take the structure of society into their own collective control and will be able to build a progressive society that we can shape to meet our needs and desires.

Most of Marxist and anarchist theory is centered around the nature of capitalism and its role in society's history. So its probably better to start off with some questions you might have about capitalism or hesitatons in regards to what most of us are saying? The question is really how do you feel about capitalism? You're living in it too!

[RebelDog]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 06:08 am
I'm just curious here as to some of your opinions.


What's so wrong with capitalism?
Capitalism is explotative, class society whereby one class (the proletariat) produces the goods and services and another idle class (the bourgeoise) takes these goods and services from the producing class and steals their surplus value so that they have better lives than the producing class. So basically from my proletarian class point of view capitalism is inherently unjust and we have no need for another class who takes the fruit of our labour. From a bourgeois point of view its a very good system.

[BobKKKindle$]

An important part of Socialism is ensuring that everyone has access to the goods and services that are required to lead a reasonable standard of living. Capitalism is unable to do this, especially in the absence of government intervention, because one of the most important elements of Capitalism is commodity production. This has a very specific meaning in Marxist terminology - a commodity is something that is produced for the purpose of exchange - in order to be sold to someone else in order to yield a profit for the owner of capital, As a reflection of this, under Capitalism, one only has access to a good or service if one commands sufficient financial resources - or, as bourgeois economists would say, if one is part of effective demand. Thus, the inequality in the distribution of income and wealth that exists under Capitalism means that a substantial part of the population is denied access to basic amenities, including health care, housing, and education - and even a basic standard of nutrition.

[Eleutherios]

Our global civilization has the combined wealth, technology and industrial capability to ensure that every individual on the planet is provided with adequate food, water, housing, medical care, and education. But things are not that way, and the only reason is because the wealth is very unevenly distributed. A lot of wealth is concentrated into the hands of a minority of nations, and within all nations into the hands of a minority of wealthy individuals. I feel strongly that because of this fact, we have a moral imperative to redistribute the world's wealth, and the only viable way to do that is through an international working class revolution to overthrow capitalism, the economic system which keeps this perpetual inequality in place.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 06:08 am
I'm just curious here as to some of your opinions.


What's so wrong with capitalism?
the fact that I have to pay to go to school, for health care its pretty damn perverse to me. those are things that should be made available and free of charge to people.

think about it. people get to make money of you being sick.

[dannthraxxx]

the fact that I have to pay to go to school, for health care its pretty damn perverse to me. those are things that should be made available and free of charge to people.


i agree with you, i hate paying for school, which is basically why i'm not in school, i cant really afford it. i'm pretty iffy on health care, health care is basically big business in my opinion.




"Most of Marxist and anarchist theory is centered around the nature of capitalism and its role in society's history. So its probably better to start off with some questions you might have about capitalism or hesitatons in regards to what most of us are saying? The question is really how do you feel about capitalism? You're living in it too!"

I dont really have any questions about capitalism. I understand it perfectly, I was just curious as to what some of your opinions were. In all honesty, I'm not sure how I feel about any economic system. I dont believe one is better than the other, maybe in theory, but in practice, they're all incapable of adhering to individual needs/wants...in my opinion that is.

I honestly cant say that I believe all people are equal. I mean, I believe all people are equal in terms of race, religion, etc. However, I dont believe that all people are equal in work ethic, will-power, and intelligence. I mean, technically, and theoretically... any proletariat can rise from the status of proletariat to the status of bourgeois. Maybe thats a pipe-dream within itself. However, looking back, most bourgeois people started out as proletariat at one point or another. I dont think "classing" of any type is morally or politically correct. But then again, what value can we put in morals or politics?


Socialism nor Communism seem like very strong economic systems to me. I dont like either of the two any more than I like Capitalism. Then again I dont think economic systems in general are very positive things. I dont believe in state control what-so-ever. I dont believe in any one person being controlled by anyone or anything, including being held back by class status.

I suppose I'm just confused, I'm basically just now getting into any sort of politics or economics. So maybe some of my opinions and beliefs are still eskew.

I've simply always held the belief that anyone should be able to do anything with their lives at any time as long as it doesnt infringe on the rights of others.


Suppose I'm living a hopeless utopian dream though.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 07:48 am

the fact that I have to pay to go to school, for health care its pretty damn perverse to me. those are things that should be made available and free of charge to people.


i agree with you, i hate paying for school, which is basically why i'm not in school, i cant really afford it. i'm pretty iffy on health care, health care is basically big business in my opinion.




"Most of Marxist and anarchist theory is centered around the nature of capitalism and its role in society's history. So its probably better to start off with some questions you might have about capitalism or hesitatons in regards to what most of us are saying? The question is really how do you feel about capitalism? You're living in it too!"

I dont really have any questions about capitalism. I understand it perfectly, I was just curious as to what some of your opinions were. In all honesty, I'm not sure how I feel about any economic system. I dont believe one is better than the other, maybe in theory, but in practice, they're all incapable of adhering to individual needs/wants...in my opinion that is.

I honestly cant say that I believe all people are equal. I mean, I believe all people are equal in terms of race, religion, etc. However, I dont believe that all people are equal in work ethic, will-power, and intelligence. I mean, technically, and theoretically... any proletariat can rise from the status of proletariat to the status of bourgeois. Maybe thats a pipe-dream within itself. However, looking back, most bourgeois people started out as proletariat at one point or another. I dont think "classing" of any type is morally or politically correct. But then again, what value can we put in morals or politics?


Socialism nor Communism seem like very strong economic systems to me. I dont like either of the two any more than I like Capitalism. Then again I dont think economic systems in general are very positive things. I dont believe in state control what-so-ever. I dont believe in any one person being controlled by anyone or anything, including being held back by class status.

I suppose I'm just confused, I'm basically just now getting into any sort of politics or economics. So maybe some of my opinions and beliefs are still eskew.

I've simply always held the belief that anyone should be able to do anything with their lives at any time as long as it doesnt infringe on the rights of others.


Suppose I'm living a hopeless utopian dream though.
so its ok and fine with you that there's a hand full of people on top that get to make money off people with cancer, and other diseases?

Some people stay away from the doctor just because they can't afford it. thats pretty wrong dont you think?

I can tell that you obviously haven't read ENOUGH. or any good socialist-communist literature. You have sort of the wrong idea about it. I wouldn't say you are completely ignorant about it. but is safe to say you don't know much about it. for one a socialist and communist economy has never existed. so we can't say its not good or that "it didn't work"

and you will probably be restricted on this forum. sucks but thats how it is.

an people who were born proletariat, and "made it" and became bourgeois are a handful my friend. very little people worked half their life or all their life and became rich.

like I said there's lost of good stuff to read out there so you can educate your self more on communism and socialism.

[cenv]

I dont believe one is better than the other, maybe in theory, but in practice, they're all incapable of adhering to individual needs/wants...in my opinion that is.
I don't think this is really your opinion. It's the opinion assigned to you by bourgeois culture. As R_P_A_S rightly pointed out, a little research on the true nature of socialism would probably be beneficial for you even if you use it simply to justify your regurgitation of the "communism works in theory but not in practice" line.


I honestly cant say that I believe all people are equal. I mean, I believe all people are equal in terms of race, religion, etc. However, I dont believe that all people are equal in work ethic, will-power, and intelligence.
Contrary to what the bourgeois education system tells you, communism does not seek to turn everyone into exact replicates of each other and "make everyone equal". There's certainly a significant biological diversity within the human population, and communism can't fix that. All communism wants to do is establish a classless society, a task that doesn't assume the utter equality of all humans.


I mean, technically, and theoretically... any proletariat can rise from the status of proletariat to the status of bourgeois. Maybe thats a pipe-dream within itself. However, looking back, most bourgeois people started out as proletariat at one point or another.
Would you care to cite your sources on that assertion?

Obviously, for most proletarians, joining the exclusive ranks of the bourgeoisie is impossible because of their humble beginnings and lack of resources.


I dont think "classing" of any type is morally or politically correct. But then again, what value can we put in morals or politics?
For most of us, this isn't a "moral" decision. The only people that may join the revolution simply for moral reasons will be the petty-bourgeoisie. Most of us have the overthrow of capitalism in our material interests, as we'll be able to live without the exploitation of the bourgeoisie and the numerous other unpleasant side effects of the current mode of production (environmental destruction, threat of war, etc.).

[Eleutherios]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 07:48 am
I honestly cant say that I believe all people are equal. I mean, I believe all people are equal in terms of race, religion, etc. However, I dont believe that all people are equal in work ethic, will-power, and intelligence.
Who said they have to be? Communism is based on the principle of "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his need". It is definitely not based on pretending everybody has the same abilities and the same needs.

I mean, technically, and theoretically... any proletariat can rise from the status of proletariat to the status of bourgeois. Maybe thats a pipe-dream within itself.
I suppose you're technically right, in that there is a non-zero probability for every individual of attaining richness. But there is also a non-zero probability for every individual of becoming the first astronaut to land on Mars, too. The probability of these things happening depends mostly upon the upbringing of the individual in question.

You have to consider the fact that simply because of mathematics, any capitalist society is going to have just a few rich people and a lot of poor people, no matter how hard everybody wants to get to the top of the ladder. Not everybody can have lots of money and own companies and stocks and be bosses. There isn't enough wealth for everybody to be affluent, and there aren't enough management jobs in proportion to bottom-level jobs. If everybody is a boss, who will be bossed around?

Capitalism requires pyramid-shaped hierarchies, and as long as it exists most of us will live on the bottom. Upside-down pyramids fall over because they cannot support themselves. We cannot have a society where 90% of people are managers and CEOs and only 10% do all the real productive labor at the bottom levels, like cleaning, assembling, transporting, and distributing things. No matter how hard we proletarians work (and we are the hardest working people in society), we don't find ourselves all shooting up to the top of the corporate ladder. The capitalist system could not possibly function that way, but it needs to pretend like it does.

However, looking back, most bourgeois people started out as proletariat at one point or another.
Actually, most bourgeois started out as the children of bourgeois parents. Upward social mobility, contrary to what you've probably heard in the capitalist media and the capitalist education system, is just not that common a thing.

If the amount of work you've put into your job was the determining factor in how wealthy you become, then sweatshop workers would be the richest people on the planet and stockbrokers who spend their days on the golf course would instantly go broke. Clearly it takes more than hard work to get to the top of the corporate ladder. What really counts is not how determined you are or how creative you are or any of that crap, but how much access to resources you already have. The wealthy tend to stay wealthy, and their kids tend to be wealthy, while the poor tend to stay poor, and their kids tend to be poor. There are occasional exceptions, but it doesn't happen nearly as often as you'd think.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/may2006/mobi-m20.shtml

I dont think "classing" of any type is morally or politically correct. But then again, what value can we put in morals or politics?
Our class theory is not based on moral or political correctness any more than the theory of evolution is. If it troubles you that we communists are talking about the bourgeoisie and the proletariat, or if it troubles you that biologists talk of natural selection and gene frequencies, then too bad, because we are both just looking at the world and reporting what we see.

Communists are materialists. We see that social classes exist, we see that they conflict, and we see that the root of this conflict is in their relation to the means of production. We can either ignore it and try to pretend the world isn't the way it is, or we can face reality and propose solutions to the conflict.

Socialism nor Communism seem like very strong economic systems to me. I dont like either of the two any more than I like Capitalism. Then again I dont think economic systems in general are very positive things.
Well, society needs to have some kind of economic system! Which one we choose heavily influences the way wealth is distributed in our society and the degrees of power people have over society. If you don't like the economic systems you've heard of, come up with a better one and tell us what it is.

[dannthraxxx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 08:34 am


so its ok and fine with you that there's a hand full of people on top that get to make money off people with cancer, and other diseases?

Some people stay away from the doctor just because they can't afford it. thats pretty wrong dont you think?

I can tell that you obviously haven't read ENOUGH. or any good socialist-communist literature. You have sort of the wrong idea about it. I wouldn't say you are completely ignorant about it. but is safe to say you don't know much about it. for one a socialist and communist economy has never existed. so we can't say its not good or that "it didn't work"

and you will probably be restricted on this forum. sucks but thats how it is.

an people who were born proletariat, and "made it" and became bourgeois are a handful my friend. very little people worked half their life or all their life and became rich.

like I said there's lost of good stuff to read out there so you can educate your self more on communism and socialism.
no, no. i think health care should be totally free. i know several people who stay away from the doctor because it's so ridiculously over-priced, including my own mom.


you are right, my views are still developing i suppose. i havent read that much on communism or socialism. i have a "basic" grasp i suppose, but in all honesty i'm still pretty ignorant to much of the inner-workings. and i knew that socialist and communist economies have never truly existed. i was just saying "in theory."


i really, hope i'm not restricted, it's not as if i'm spreading hate or pro-capitalist propaghanda. i was just simply curious as to what some of you see the negatives are with capitalism. maybe i should have posted this in the opposing viewpoints section.

most of the posts above that are shouting at me, or it seems that way, i agree with. i dont believe a "just" or equal society can exist as long as capitalism remains the majority economic system of choice.

i agree, i dont know of very many at all, and the ones i do know of, became bourgeois hundreds of years ago, and their kids just kind of took the wealth for themselves, which is where capitalism becomes a problem. capitalism and nepitism? is it, go hand in hand.

i'm definitely going to read more on communism and socialism. i've been reading alot of kropotkin, goldman, and malatesta. i've read kapital and the communist manifesto. but other than those two texts and a few other internet articles, i havent read much about communism or socialism.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by dannthraxxx+February 21, 2007 02:17 am--> (dannthraxxx @ February 21, 2007 02:17 am)
[email protected] 20, 2007 08:34 am


so its ok and fine with you that there's a hand full of people on top that get to make money off people with cancer, and other diseases?

Some people stay away from the doctor just because they can't afford it. thats pretty wrong dont you think?

I can tell that you obviously haven't read ENOUGH. or any good socialist-communist literature. You have sort of the wrong idea about it. I wouldn't say you are completely ignorant about it. but is safe to say you don't know much about it. for one a socialist and communist economy has never existed. so we can't say its not good or that "it didn't work"

and you will probably be restricted on this forum. sucks but thats how it is.

an people who were born proletariat, and "made it" and became bourgeois are a handful my friend. very little people worked half their life or all their life and became rich.

like I said there's lost of good stuff to read out there so you can educate your self more on communism and socialism.
no, no. i think health care should be totally free. i know several people who stay away from the doctor because it's so ridiculously over-priced, including my own mom.


you are right, my views are still developing i suppose. i havent read that much on communism or socialism. i have a "basic" grasp i suppose, but in all honesty i'm still pretty ignorant to much of the inner-workings. and i knew that socialist and communist economies have never truly existed. i was just saying "in theory."


i really, hope i'm not restricted, it's not as if i'm spreading hate or pro-capitalist propaghanda. i was just simply curious as to what some of you see the negatives are with capitalism. maybe i should have posted this in the opposing viewpoints section.

most of the posts above that are shouting at me, or it seems that way, i agree with. i dont believe a "just" or equal society can exist as long as capitalism remains the majority economic system of choice.

i agree, i dont know of very many at all, and the ones i do know of, became bourgeois hundreds of years ago, and their kids just kind of took the wealth for themselves, which is where capitalism becomes a problem. capitalism and nepitism? is it, go hand in hand.

i'm definitely going to read more on communism and socialism. i've been reading alot of kropotkin, goldman, and malatesta. i've read kapital and the communist manifesto. but other than those two texts and a few other internet articles, i havent read much about communism or socialism. [/b]
the reason i can sort of identify with you, is because i sorta had the same comments and thoughts about communism and socialism. Maybe you need to read The Manifesto again. because I don't think you grasped it... Take your time.

I came here wanting to be a socialist ONLY and "play if safe" but once I realized that oppression and antagonism would never cease unless we abolish capitalism I came to grips and decided that this was the point of no return. no war BUT the class war!

and we don't want to make everyone robots, and think alike. we want people to TRULY BE FREE! not be restricted by class, race, and money!

regardless if Capitalism is hard-core or more tolerable. it's still CAPITALism.