the romanovs

[yuriandropov]

here is a question that, IMO, will seperate the marxists from other so called 'leftists'. who here thinks the romanov family shouldn't have been killed by lenin?

[Menshevik]

I can already guess what your opinion on the matter is. Why don't you tell me why they should have been killed?

[yuriandropov]

easy answer. for all the suffering the bastards had put the russian people through for the past 100's of years. the fact that they lived in palaces with 100's of servant while there 'subjects' died from famine. the last tsar wasn't a monarch like you see now. he was a dictatoral monarch who put russia into WWI for the pursuit of imperialist goals. every monarch on the face of this earth should be killed for living like they do when the workers live in terrible conditions. the only thing the romanovs did in there whole life was be conceived. that was it, and from then on, they lived the high life while doing nothing all because they had the 'divine' right to rule over russia. then, to top it all of, nicholas abdicated and, like the coward he was, retired into anonimity. what a cowardly act. he couldn't face the people so he took his 'royal' family and went into hiding. then, when lenin found him, he bayoneted the whole family to death. IMO a death that was too good for them.

[Reuben]

I think the murderous bastards should have been killed.

You know one of my relative was a kindd of matyr. In TSarist russia he got up on the roof of a pub and started to shouting "workers of the world unite" or something, and he was shot.

I dont know whether he was a committed socialist or just drunk

[Menshevik]

For once, I think I actually agree with you Yuri, but what about Nicholas II's children? Were they a threat or in anyway accountable for the crimes of a corrupt monarchy?

[yuriandropov]

i think lenin killed the children because as they grew up, they could of become symbols of a counter-revolution. i still think i would of killed the children for that reason but i could see the point of someone who might think it was harsh. i'm glad you agree with me though as i think any true marxist must be violently against monarchism.

reuban, what relative was it of yours who did that. do you have russian ancestory? what year was that in? when it comes to bloody conflicts, people often forget the russian civil war. many people were killed. a lot of them, like your relative, for no reason. tsarist police were much worse than communists when it came to dissent, even compared to stalin.

[Maaja]

When I was younger (before I discovered socialism), I was impressed by Romanovs. I read tens and tens books about them and I still do remember everything, every single name in their family and every single destiny. Romanovs aren't just Nicholas II, his wife and children. And other people were massacred too. In some way I find it always depressing. For example their relatives who hadn't done anything at all, one youn boy (he was a prince and poet) was for example amazed by bolcheviks and he even wanted to join them although his family was of course against. He was murdered with others. Also I despise the way how bolceviks destroied cultural values without understandding their meaning for the society. But that's my opinion.

[Dan Majerle]

I don't think anybody should be killed. A recent Lenin biography claims the revolutionary killed the Romanovs for revenge after his brother Alexander was executed by the Oskhrana, (secret police) for counter-revolutionary activity.

[Reuben]

It was quite a distant relative. My family came to britain from different parts of the rusian empire in around 1912. Some also went to America. My mums family actually came from vitebsk in Belarus

[Guest1]

I'm a militant dove. Yep. Throw the asshole in a jail cell for life and take the money from his family. other than that, I don't see a reason for killing anyone. Let his children live amongst the peopl he oppressed, the spoiled brats would be harrassed by their classmates for life about being children of a tyrant. that's good enough for me.

[RedRevolutionary87]

i agree that his children should not have been killed, well mayeb the older ones 15-20 seem to not change their views, but the youngens can simply grow up into productive communists. however russias revolution was a complete mistake and should never have happened, it gave communism a bad name, its no fault of lenin, its just the conditions were a lose lose situation, the bolsheviks were too impatiant.

[Anna]

The question is easy!!!Of course they must have been killed!!!This was the only way to save the people in Russia!!!People starved and they were not educaited!!!!
Nearly every week there was a pogrom, just to make the countrys politics more cloudy!
The Romanovs killed the culture and lots of jews!!!They had to go!!!So death was the less they deserved!!!

[Anarcho]

Good to see open, non-partisan discussion of such topics... hehehehe....

IMHO, the Romanovs should have been tried, then exiled. The execution of the Romanov family was a horrible thing, and all accounts of how it was done show that the Revolutionaries knew that fact. It tainted the face of the Revolution and gave the whole thing a patina of mob rule.

Yes, they were corrupt. Yes, they were brutal... but, given the situation, they had to be. Every ruler of Russia, even the Soviet Rulers, were just as brutal. The difference lies in the reasoning for doing so.... and even then, there isn't a lot of reasoning behind it.

So, to repeat, no, they should have been tried, then exiled. Or locked away, as they did the Emporer of China.

[LeonardoDaVinci]

Quote: from yuriandropov on 5:00 pm on May 12, 2002
i think lenin killed the children because as they grew up, they could of become symbols of a counter-revolution. i still think i would of killed the children for that reason but i could see the point of someone who might think it was harsh. i'm glad you agree with me though as i think any true marxist must be violently against monarchism.

Good old Machiavellian tactics: Despose of all your enemies at once. Also, you must not display any compassion towards their children and relatives, for they might be your future enemys and the architects of your downfall. However, let's not forget what happened to his heroes, one committed suicide, one was hanged and another one was found in the town square cut in half.

I am not against getting rid of your enemies of they pose any significant threat. But to go one step further and execute all of their living relatives will surely earn you more enemies than friends. Moreover, it will expose your cruelty and totalitarianism to the public, and a public which is ruled by fear and despotism will be your ultimate downfall.

[Revolution Hero]

White army was about to rescue Romanovs. They were the symbol of the Russian Empire. By saving them from imprisonment the fighting spirit of white soldiers and especially officers could significantly rise.
Lenin ordered to kill them. That was the RIGHT decision.

[Cabover Pete]

I don't think there was any reason to kill the Romanovs. The execution only hurt the image of Communism. I whole-Heartedly agree the Nicholas II was a murderous, oppressive poor excuse of a leader, but he could just had easily have been imprisoned as he could have been executed. An execution would only be an evil vengeful act. As for the children, the younger ones could have been effective communists, but they would also have to be given new identities to protect them from violence. Older children would have too many memories of pre-Bolshevik era and would require inprisonment or exile.

[TheDerminator]

As far as I'm aware no hard evidence has ever existed that proves Lenin directly ordered the deaths of the Romanov family. It has been attributed to Lenin by many authors, because they assume the order must have come from the Kremlin, but it is only an assumption, and without hard evidence you can equally assume that the murderous action was inaugurated at a local level.

Even after the fall of the Soviet Union I've not heard of any uncontrovertable archive material which has surfaced which proves the direct responsibility of Lenin.

The murders were atrocious and unnecessary. If Lenin sanctioned them, it was worse than an error of judgement, and ought to be condemned. However, as far as I'm aware the jury is still out.

derminated

[lenin]

derminator, i am yuriandropov's nephew but as he is banned from this forum, i'll speak on his behalf.
you are incredibly ignorant to history! saying lenin did not kill the romanovs is saying like there is no evidience of the stalinist purges! there is none. but we know the truth from testimonies of red army bolsheviks.
the romanovs should of been killed for being monarchist bastards! they were ALL enemies of the prolaterat and the revolution. they were symbols of the whites and should of all been exterminated. as leonid said, bayoneting them to death was too good for them!

[TheDerminator]

Ignorant. U R the one one who is ignorant and ignorant in the Glasgow sense of the word. A crude piece of Stalinist scum.

Not worth answering Ur vile version of history. U ought to banned. U r no socialist. U R an insult to the socialist tradition.

Murderous scum.

Be afraid, be very afraid...

[Reuben]

Hi lenin, do you share the same views as your uncle? Or are you nicer?

[lenin]

derminator, i'm not going to debate with you because it seems everything i say you require 'evidence' and if i say something slightly different to you, you say i should be banned (do i detect a hint of stalinism there? suppresion of descent?). i'll just say this, lenin ordered the deaths of the romanovs, everyone knows it. i was born and raised in russia, and over there, everyone knows it. and everyone (most anyway) think it was the right thing to do. the bastards had oppressed the people for years. they lived in luxury while people died. they were scum and got what they deserved.
reuben, my political views differ greatly from leonids. i am marxist in economic beliefs and some social ones. i do believe communism will happen but in about 1000 years when man has changed and evolved. socialism is the best we can hope to see in our life times.

[Reuben]

ah thanks. I am quite close Marx;s true beliefs on the "two stages of socialism" that true cmmunism can onlybe instituted when man (and woman) has been conditioned by life under more socialist economic conditions.

[thebigcom]

the romanov family was corrupt and absuive of the people. when they were kicked out of power, that was punishment enough, their wealth was probably taken too.

[suffianr]

Well, the bastards were leeching off the rich, which is ok, 'coz rich people deserve to be leeched...But they didn't do anything for the poor people, either, so yeah, they should have been wasted anyway.

I don't like the idea of people receiving special privileges just because they were born in the right families, when all they do is sit around and look pretty in nice and expensive clothes, eating nice and expensive food, when people are dying of hunger or disease or exposure or clap from whores or whatever.

Yes, they should have been wasted, and their ashes scattered to hell...