Iraq

[The Grey Blur]

As a Socialist I support the Iraqi Freedom Congress and the workers of Iraq in pursuing a Socialist solution to their imperialist and sectarian devastation. However, unless we see a radical shift in the political balance (perhaps another oil strike) I do not see this as being very likely at the moment. Less likely even than this though is the victory of the "resistance" over the US forces, as the two are feeding off each other to promote seperate but both reactionary ideals in Iraq.

Do you think Bush's "surge" will be any use? Is a Socialist agenda realistic? Do you support immediate withdrawal of US troops? Is a defeat for Imperialism, at any cost, a victory for the proleteriat? Do you support the "resistance"?

In short, what do people think will actually occur in Iraq over the next period of time and what would you want to see happen?

[here for the revolution]

All I can see happening is more oppression by USA and Britain as they quietly scab all the oil, then when they've taken it all they will get out and watch as Iraq tears itself apart

[A SCANNER DARKLY]

The U.S pulls out, an all out extermination occurs, no Sunnis left. The Shiite government is in place, it would be friendly towards Iran. The U.S is back to square one.

[Coggeh]

Originally posted by A SCANNER [email protected] 19, 2007 06:16 pm
The U.S pulls out, an all out extermination occurs, no Sunnis left. The Shiite government is in place, it would be friendly towards Iran. The U.S is back to square one.
square one was to rid the country of oil for profit ... :lol: ... this would be square negative 8 :)......................*cough*

[here for the revolution]

coggy hit the nail on the head there me thinks, we `origionally` went in to make sure they weren't about to nuke us, then we realised they weren't, so we decided to reap the country of its oil. What happens next? we get bored and got to another country with oil i guess

[Karl Marx's Camel]

we `origionally` went in

"We" are common workers, not the yankee elite.

:)

[here for the revolution]

I know (fank god) i just meant in terms of nations, generally i try to avoid association with the uk but sumtimes i hav to face the facts...

[Guerrilla22]

Do you think Bush's "surge" will be any use?

No in the least, its a basically a desperation move being made without taking into account any real strategy, which is typical of Bush.


Is a Socialist agenda realistic?[QUOTE]

In Iraq, no. Anywhere in the Middle East, no. Socailism is not alive there.

Do you support immediate withdrawal of US troops?


Of course, who doesn't?


Is a defeat for Imperialism, at any cost, a victory for the proleteriat?


It will be a victory against US hegemony, but will do nothing to empower the workers really.



In short, what do people think will actually occur in Iraq over the next period of time and what would you want to see happen?[QUOTE]

Its going to become a failed state mared by sectarian fighting, widespread politcal and econmic instability and the quality of life for those living their will be absolute shit for decades to come.

[Andalou]

A family friend of mine has been to Iraq twice, and he's given the most fair-and-balanced speech about it. The Iraqis generally hate us, he said he wasn't aware of a single one who appreciated what we are doing over there, and he also noted that he seriously doubts democracy will EVER work in Iraq. They aren't used to it. It just won't happen.

That said, he also made the point that pulling out is pretty much impossible right now. Which I agree with.

So in other words, we pretty much are going to make things even more futile and awful than they already are, instead of actually trying to steadily bring back what little dignity Iraq has left and eventually pull out.

[Guns of Brixton]

Do you think Bush's "surge" will be any use?

Of use to whom? Will more troops serve the imperialist goal stabalizing control of Iraq? No. Oppression breeds resistance. The resistance is organizing and consolidating in spite of the empire's attempts at divide and conquer. The US collaborators are isolated and exposed.

The US is increasingly exposed as the enemy and a friend to nobody in Iraq. Even its support of Shia compradore strata is exposed and compromized by conflict with Iran and with the widespread support for anti-US Shia leaders.


Is a Socialist agenda realistic?

Not immediately. Until a consistent revolutionary marxist leninist leadership emerges to lead the fight against the empire, the opportunity to turn the popular anti-imperialist insurgency into a struggle for socialism will not be realized.


Do you support immediate withdrawal of US troops?

Yes. US troops support only the empire and has no positive role. US out now! The arguments that, somehow, the US troops are required to prevent chaos are all bullshit. The US is the main cause of chaos in Iraq. Every day of US involvement in Iraq is another day of genocide and oppression.


Is a defeat for Imperialism, at any cost, a victory for the proleteriat?

Yes. The cost of defeating the empire must someday be borne. The cost of defeating them now is certainly less than the cost of enduring them and defeating them in the future.


Do you support the "resistance"?

Yes. I support them defeating the empire. And, I support them growing and learning in the process of their struggle and making an important contribution to the world revolution when they emerge victorious.


In short, what do people think will actually occur in Iraq over the next period of time and what would you want to see happen?

I think the resistance will grow and become more politically aware and consolidated in their struggle against the empire. They will be tempered by the struggle. I expect the horror of the conflict to increase. I expect the US to become increasingly desperate. I expect them to expand the conflict rather than lose. I expect the conflict to become increasingly sharp in the US, Iraq and in the whole world.

I hope the resistance grows and strengthens. I hope that they cut through the divide and conquer tactics and that Shia and Sunni find ways to unite as a national liberation struggle. I hope a huge section the people in the US become more conscious and rise to the challenge of fulfilling our internationalist obligation to bring the war home.

[dannthraxxx]

The situation in Iraq confuses me. Nothing the media tells you is true. Nothing government officials tell you is true. You cant really believe what soldiers say because they have no clue what they're doing over there really other than getting killed themselves.

I dont understand people who say we're over there for "materialistic" gains, because obviously the war in the middle east has put America in such a debt that we'll probably never get out. We're more likely to hit a depression than get out of the war in Iraq with capital gains. I dont understand the American governments over-all goal in Iraq, simply "controlling" oil in the middle east isnt really going to help us out any. Oil will eventually run out and we'll have to find different ways of travel. We're obviously not there to "liberate" the Iraqi people simply because the soldiers are normally denied acces anytime it comes to any oppurtunity to control the civil outbreaks.

Thats jumbled and probably sounds incoherent as fuck.


Basically, I'm confused on the whole ordeal and I kind of have the same questions.


Why are we in Iraq? I honestly dont think it's simply for "oil."

I dont understand why we have American soldiers simply sitting there and dying.


I"m basically confused on any political views I once held, I basically give up on the world. I'm praying the world ends soon.

[KC]

I dont understand people who say we're over there for "materialistic" gains, because obviously the war in the middle east has put America in such a debt that we'll probably never get out. We're more likely to hit a depression than get out of the war in Iraq with capital gains.

This wasn't about gains for the government, it was about gains for the corporation that the American government handed out oil contracts to after the invasion. It's a classic case of the bourgeoisie implementing the state to its benefit.


I dont understand the American governments over-all goal in Iraq, simply "controlling" oil in the middle east isnt really going to help us out any. Oil will eventually run out and we'll have to find different ways of travel.

Apparently you don't realize how far off that is. With a developing China, and recognizing the fact that the control of oil is control of the entire system (oil is an essential commodity in every industry in every industrial nation across the globe) it's rather obvious what the benefits are of the US controlling Iraqi oil supplies.

Plus we could also mention the tactical advantages of having a dependent or pro-US government installed in Iraq.

[Guerrilla22]

I dont understand why we have American soldiers simply sitting there and dying.

Because Bush is too stubborn to admit that he made an enormous error in going into Iraq, so he'd rather let thousands die rather than acknowledge what he set out to do won't work.


Why are we in Iraq? I honestly dont think it's simply for "oil."

The competition for natural resources has never been greater, especially with China on the rise as Zampano stated. Also never underestimate the power and influence of the military industrail complex.


I"m basically confused on any political views I once held, I basically give up on the world. I'm praying the world ends soon.

I really fail to see how the end of humanity will benefit anyone.

[KC]

Because Bush is too stubborn to admit that he made an enormous error in going into Iraq, so he'd rather let thousands die rather than acknowledge what he set out to do won't work.

It's not just Bush; it's the government as a whole. Congress, too, is refusing to withdraw.

[Guerrilla22]

Good point. The democrats don't actually want to withdraw from Iraq because they keep making politcal gains by pointing to Bush's failed policies regarding Iraq. They're hoping the war is around and going equally as bad, if not worse next year for the presidential election.

[BreadBros]

I dont understand people who say we're over there for "materialistic" gains, because obviously the war in the middle east has put America in such a debt that we'll probably never get out. We're more likely to hit a depression than get out of the war in Iraq with capital gains. I dont understand the American governments over-all goal in Iraq, simply "controlling" oil in the middle east isnt really going to help us out any. Oil will eventually run out and we'll have to find different ways of travel. We're obviously not there to "liberate" the Iraqi people simply because the soldiers are normally denied acces anytime it comes to any oppurtunity to control the civil outbreaks.


Why are we in Iraq? I honestly dont think it's simply for "oil."

I dont understand why we have American soldiers simply sitting there and dying.

Well, you have to think about material gain for whom. For the American government or public as a whole? Of course not. The American public isn't really in control of the government. The government is essentially driven by its biggest "customers" and "donors": large economic interests. The war in Iraq has netted a huge amount of oil reserves for large oil companies like Exxon-Mobile, British Petroleum, etc.

You see, basically, corporation and economic interests want to expand all over the world, it means more profit, more control, more expansion. Thats why the US and its allies are always promoting free trade as a virtue of all governments. Its essentially saying "you should let us in to your country so we can do business!". Of course the US is the largest and most powerful economy in the world so the business transaction is always in favor of the US. Ocassionally countries straight out refuse to join the world economic order. Sort of like how Saddam did by keeping the oil reserves to himself instead of sharing them with the big oil companies in the US and UK. So the American government had no choice but to "knock the door down" into Iraq to open up the vast economic profits available for the reaping! Except the Iraqis dont like that cause they feel its their oil, so we have to keep a shitload of armaments and troops there to keep them under control. And in the process hundreds of thousands of poor, innocent Iraqis have been killed. Does that shed some light on the material interest aspect of it?

As for the economic effects on the US government and the populace... :lol: Do you really think an oil executive or the shareholders of his company who are reaping record profits really give a fuck that you and your children will have to pay for this whole thing in the future (if you havent paid for it with your life already)? No way! As for politicians, they get their biggest donations and are put in power by the people who are making money, so they dont give a fuck either.

You're right that oil is running out. Although, thats not happening for a while. More importantly you forget that a commodity in scarcity equals a commodity that reaps more profit! Oil is running out so you'll probably see much more "intervention" on the part of the imperialist countries whenever the opportunity to get more arises.


I"m basically confused on any political views I once held, I basically give up on the world. I'm praying the world ends soon.

Confusion is normal. Capitalist society tends to breed a "false consciousness". That is, just like we are seperated from our work by capitalist production, we are also often seperated from our own desires and interests. Resolving that disjunct can be confusing or throw your previous beliefs into a new light. Just keep reading around here and I think you'll learn more :).

[The Grey Blur]

Thanks for the responses everyone.



Do you think Bush's "surge" will be any use?

No in the least, its a basically a desperation move being made without taking into account any real strategy, which is typical of Bush.
I agree, the "surge" is hopeless, a popular resistance such as that enjoyed by the Mahdi army isn't defeatable through simple manpower.



Is a Socialist agenda realistic?

In Iraq, no. Anywhere in the Middle East, no. Socailism is not alive there.
Socialism is not "alive" anywhere in the world right now, that doesn't mean we abandon the Middle Eastern working class to religious fundamentalism.

The examples of the strong Middle Eastern Communist parties, the PFLP and the Israeli labour movement all point to this being false as well. It is not the most recognisable force right now but Socialism has historically been strong amongst the Middle Eastern working-classes.

Also, the working class is in an incredibly strong position in Iraq, as the oil strikes which basically shut the country down last year show. If a revolutionary group could cut across the sectarian divide imposed by the bourgeois, imperialists and clerics and let them see this. The Iraqi Freedom Congress is a working class organisation which has organised democratic militias to defend working-class areas and has gained support in both Shia and Sunni areas.


Of course, who doesn't?
Well those who want to keep them there. But what I meant was, you don't see their withdrawal adding to the chaos?

I agree with this view:

The arguments that, somehow, the US troops are required to prevent chaos are all bullshit. The US is the main cause of chaos in Iraq

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Is a defeat for Imperialism, at any cost, a victory for the proleteriat?
I meant in the US. If the US is forced to withdraw from Iraq wll the proleteriat of America, as Lenin supposed through defeatism, gain a revolutionary insight?

I personally see this as both likely to happen as well as a positive occurrence. On the other hand, I don't think the short-term elevation of American working class consciousnessn is worth a theocratic, corrupt Iraq.


Its going to become a failed state mared by sectarian fighting, widespread politcal and econmic instability and the quality of life for those living their will be absolute shit for decades to come.
I believe in the revolutionary power of the working-class to reverse all this, if their conciousness can be awoken by a consistent Marxist party. But yes, the invasion and the corruption ensuing from this is devastating Iraq and it is the Iraqi working-class who are paying the price, through lack of schools, jobs and basic infrastructure. They can't emigrate or join the Imperialists like the well-off middle or ruling classes.