community union socialism

[RGacky3]

go to www.geocities.com.socialistliberators. me and the man in the red suite have come up with a type of socialism that takes utopian socialism, and mixes it with communism. We figured out that the utopia that marx wanted only works in small communes. So we came up with a system that connects lots of communes in a country. in few words I think that it is the best type so far.

[Raztro]

It's nice...I like you you mixed it around...

[Lardlad95]

It wont show up for me...oh well. It sounds great from what you said. can you post it here so I can read more about it?

[RGacky3]

OUR BOOK

WWhere should I start ? We began writing our book as an instrument of
communist enlightenment for American citezens who have displayed ignorance,
intolerance, or have misunderstood this economic system. Later it appeared to
turn into the stepping stone for our new masterpiece of a socialism which we both invented. We explain the existance of communism and socialism in other parts of the world and their success as well as their unfortunate failures. We also explained Marx's theory. Later we started pointing out the malevolance of capitalism on the working class.

Now we are planning a new form of socialism. Our current name for it is
Community Union Socialism. We based this socialism on a combination of
utopian socialism, democratic socialism, and pure Marxism.

We intended on
having numerous communes which work together in unity, each providing an
individual form of capital which is traded among other communes. A central
government will exist in order to maintain balance and order. The central government will consist of a member of each commune whom is previously
elected by popular vote by the people of that group. The communes will each have a ruler who makes decisions for the commune unless overided or vetoed by the central government.

Inheritance rights will only allow the right to inherit physical posessions but not
money.

Money will be replaced by the credit

Property may be owned but is restricted. Utilities are owned by the state, as is
means of transportation and communication.

All education is free

65% income tax on privately owned businesses, which are allowed but whose
decisions in marketing are restricted to prevent monopolies.

Salaries of government businesses are equal (equal liability of all to labour)

Surpluses of money are used towards the benfit of the people in forms of welfare and social security. Money will be used to help the handicapped
and those who are unable to work.





These are only bits and pieces worth of our ideas.
If you have any questions or suggestions please e mail us or post a message...

[Sasafrás]

http://www.geocities.com/socialistliberators/

[RGacky3]

So what do you people think about this new form of socialism, if there are any flaws in it tell me so that I can fix them, there are some things in the book that we have not added to the site.

[Lardlad95]

that is a great idea. If you guys ever form a party I want in, though I would like to disscuss the following topics.

1. 65% income tax? Perhapes a little high. People should make a profit though not enough to create a huge class diffrence. How about 55%? Though I guess it depends on the buisness.

2. Variety, will people be as diverse in this system? I mean there are so many different things people buy plus the things that people want based on who they are, if they like baseball or football, jazz or rap, jeans or shorts. All these things require buisnesses, and wouldn't it be to much of a hassle for the government to make all that stuff, plus the 65% income tax on private buisness so people will be reluctant to start their buisnesses.

What if a group of people owned the buisness instead of one person then would the tax be lowered.

3. Communes. Now would their be much progress from self sufficeint communities? I mean places were people all have different jobs seem so much more diverse. I'm afraid that in this system people wont be exposed to differences in life, and that is how prejudices start. People need diversity, if everyone around them is the same....


well I hope you can clear all these questions up for me

[RGacky3]

65% tax is for a buisiness that is doing well. buisinesses that are not doing well, will get less of a tax, buisinesses that are doing very well will get more of a tax, the private buisinesses. The government could not possibly provide every little thing for the people, thats why there must be some small buisinesses. You also have to remember that the government workers pay, and the private buisinessmans tax, are all used to try and keep equality and stop exploitation, so people who want to start their own buisiness, will be assured that they will be taken care of by the government. The taxes stay the same if one or more people own the buisiness the taxes are made acording to haw much the owner or owners are making. One problem in communes is that technology does not advance very fast, personally I don't see that as a problem. Also the commune will be connected to other communes for trade and such so predudice will not happen. any way thanks for the complement We hope that this will go some where, perhaps we will make a party.

[man in the red suit]

Romen,
good idea, many comrads have become interested in our socialism. haha follow us and our way of life comrads!!!

[man in the red suit]

TO ALL COMRADS-

COME TO OUR SITE TO LEARN MORE ABOUT OUR BOOK!!!

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from RGacky3 on 12:04 am on May 8, 2002
65% tax is for a buisiness that is doing well. buisinesses that are not doing well, will get less of a tax, buisinesses that are doing very well will get more of a tax, the private buisinesses. The government could not possibly provide every little thing for the people, thats why there must be some small buisinesses. You also have to remember that the government workers pay, and the private buisinessmans tax, are all used to try and keep equality and stop exploitation, so people who want to start their own buisiness, will be assured that they will be taken care of by the government. The taxes stay the same if one or more people own the buisiness the taxes are made acording to haw much the owner or owners are making. One problem in communes is that technology does not advance very fast, personally I don't see that as a problem. Also the commune will be connected to other communes for trade and such so predudice will not happen. any way thanks for the complement We hope that this will go some where, perhaps we will make a party.


ok I feel were you are going with this. and I'm happy to disscussing this with you on the ground floor (then when your trust in me grows I'll get rid of you, then the party will be mine...I' probably should'nt be writing this...damn :) )

How do you feel about housing, job assistance, and slaries?

As far as salaries go feel their should be a salary cap. People wouldn't get the exact same wages, but they wont get paid so much more that a class society will be made. If someone is working for a company thats doing good, he should get part of what that company earns, and on the other end a person who works for a failing company wont starve to death.

Does the government offer job assistance? i think people should get temp. jobs while they search for one better suited to them.

And housing, would people be able to upgrade their homes? Out of their own pockets of course. THe government issues housing and if people want more they have to pay for the construction plus a small building tax and small land tax if the building goes onto government land.

Sorry if I'm badgering just need to know where you stand on certain things.

[man in the red suit]

lardlad-
I do not agree with u on the salary cap
this leads to capitalism which we do not want.

I do however, agree with u 100% that the government should offer job assistence.

Home upgrades should also be allowed as you said.
You can't exploit others by owning a house! :) I do not feel however that any one person may be allowed to own more thatn one house.

Don't worry about badgering us. we enjoy answering your questions. Any comrad deserves answers!!!

[RGacky3]

I think the upgrading house thing is not a good thing, it could create social classes

[RGacky3]

I think that some of Lardlad95s Ideas are good, but a little bit too much capitalism involved.

[RGacky3]

any way if any one wants to help us publish the book or get it around, please contact us.

[man in the red suit]

yeah, actually I agree with Nomar now that home upgrading involves too much capitalism as well.

[Lardlad95]

First of all the only reason I suggested a salary cap is because paying everyone the same is going to result in two things.

1. people wont want to try hard

2. All that excess money will go to the government then you know some people in the government are going to pocket the damn money. Unless everyone gets paid the same wage.

I suggest that minimum wage (for a fultime job) be 75,000 and maximum wage be 100,000 of course it will be subject to change as the economy grows or shrinks.


The housing upgrades are gonna be like going from apartment to mansion. This is what I meant.

People will slowly go up the scale of the size of the house depending on their dependants.

single person will get a apartment (one room)

married with one kid two room apartment

2 children three room house

3-6 children four rooms

3-6 + a dependant 5 rooms

after that they have to pay for construction plus property and construction taxes for anymore additions.

I never meant people will get mansions and shit if they pay for them.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from RGacky3 on 1:31 am on May 10, 2002
any way if any one wants to help us publish the book or get it around, please contact us.


I would love to help you guys out...are you finished yet? I can try and inform to people to look out for it when it hits stores...any thing to help out a fellow author

[RGacky3]

One thing we noticed is that in utopian socialism people usually try hard becouse their own welfare leans on the community, becouse it is so small. The exess money will either be used for wellfare or to raise the living standard for ALL of the workers. Oh and I agree with the housing thing, if people need bigger houses becouse they have more children thats fine.

If you want to help at all just e-mail me. or Iraki (man in the red suit). we are in the prosses of typing out all of our points that are written down, so when thats done, we could use some help editing and publishing.

[man in the red suit]

lardlad, a salary cap will not improve the incentive issue.
this is why we chose utopian communism as our builiding stone, in utopian communism or socialism, people depend on one another for the community to function properly. When one person lags behind, then the whole system breaks down. this results in people to have the desire to work harder. If you make salry caps and home improvement then you create a social gap. the social gap may not nescsarilly be significant, but if you give it time it will grow into something that is. This is why we are aginst salary caps and home improvement. It is in a sense, capitalism.

[Lardlad95]

Ok I understand were you are coming from Redman...is it okay if I callyou that?

Anyway not everybody wants to work for each other. I hate to say that but it is true. People's imediate family comes first. I think helping out others is important but if my family was starving I'm not going to help someone else out until mine is fine. That could work in really small communes were everyone looks out for each other. But my fear is that people will carry capitalistic greed with them.

And I must adress this issue, I also did it in the currency one.

A problem with socialism/communism is that their is very little room for people to pursue their intrests. Because the lack of money keeps people from being able to either express themselves or buy items which help define their charecter.

I'm not saying people should be greedy and try and buy items, but I am saying this. I don't know about you but I enjoy being able to listen to cd's that I like. Do you think the community will care that I want to listen to Hendrix once in a while? No but if I can't buy them myself there is nothing I can do about that.

Community welfare can only go so far. Sure helping out people when they are down on their luck or servicing the community is what we should do, but people should be able to look out for themselves just a little bit. And by that I mean they should be able to buy things for themselves. We shouldn't rely on the community for everything because we end up with very little.

[man in the red suit]

lardlad,
I too understand where YOU are coming from. I disagree with you though. You said something to the effect that socialism doesn't allow people to dwell on their personal character. This is completely untrue. I have not intention of insulting you. You are indeed a comrad, I must say though, you speak like a true capitalist! Do you really think that we need money to express ourselves? of course not! I have an individual personality as do you. This doesn't mean that I payed for it. AS for your other point. You don't need a desire to help others in order to maintain a community. It is not as hard as you think for a person to work hard. You can still help your family as well as your community as well. We are not torn between a choice of one or the other.

oh yeah u can call me redman if u want, but id prefer suitman just because I hate rap. hehe, and we all know that redman is a weird rapper guy. It's kool though

[Lardlad95]

Ok suitman.

I never meant that we must pay to have our personalities I meant that. If I want to buy a cd I'm not going to be able to. Unless of course every person was paid exceptionally high. I'm just afraid the people will only recive their minimum needs, nothing extra what so ever.

What I meant by supporting the community is that say one guy isn't working as hard as everyone else, Are you gonna be willing to help him out when he loses his job?

by the way I apologize for sounding like a cappie I just want to be sure of every thing...so manything can be overlooked

[man in the red suit]

no prob. lardlad I see your concerns

[Dynatos]

If you ever did publish a book I'd buy one. But i don't think its a good idea to give everyone the same wage. why would someone go threw 4 years of university to become a docter when he could just not go to school at all and become a truck driver and get the same wage?
also i think theres something wrong with the 65% income tax. I don't think anyone would start a buisness in your country. If i had the meens to start a buisness I would rather go to a country with a lower income tax and be able to make more profit. also, if there is no money how will you trade with other countries? unless you plan on not trading with other counties witch would mean that you would have a very low amount of diffrent products.

[man in the red suit]

AS SAID BEFORE, we changed the income tax from 65 to 50% please don't bring this issue up again. As for the same wage, I have argued to many cappies about the same thing. Me and comrad Gacky believe in equal liability of all to labour. No job is more deserving of more money than any other occupation in our opinion. If u pay certain people more, you cause social gaps and create capitalism. Thank you for your support though, comrad!!!

[Kingnothing]

Great ideas!!!!
On the last issue of equal salaries, i agree with suitman. The incentiuve to study should be self improvement and the posibility to do everything you can for the community, not money.

[RGacky3]

by the way the 50% tax is only for government workers, the privet buisiness owners get taxed, acording to what they make. IF someone is a capitalist and does not want to live in a community union socialist society we let them leave, its as simple as that.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Kingnothing on 9:14 pm on May 12, 2002
Great ideas!!!!
On the last issue of equal salaries, i agree with suitman. The incentiuve to study should be self improvement and the posibility to do everything you can for the community, not money.


Not to say that this is right but don't you think people would want something a little bit more tangible? If the knowledge you gain can't help you in any tangible way some people will wonder why they should at all.

[LeonardoDaVinci]

I too don't think that giving everyone the same salary will work, people work harder for rewards, it is a quality instilled in the human nature. By denying workers that important incentive, such a society will lag behind in terms of industrial and technological competitiveness and thus inevitably will lose many skilled workers to more competitive and hostile nations; consoquently, such a nation will render itself obsolete. However, there should be cap on all salaries, so that no one is significantly better off than others (i.e. no executives earning $1,000,000 a year on one hand; and a worker earning $10,000 on the other) and thus ensure that everyone lives in fairly comfortable manner and leads a happy life. This, reinforced with the right corporate and constitutional regulations and restrictions does not lead to capitalism as many of you might suggest, on the contrary, it will ensure that your workers are satisfied and that your nation as a whole will be self-sufficient.

Even though I am devout socialist, I believe that this is the simple truth that history teaches us; we can aim to create a utopian society, but the society is the sum of its individuals, and the actions of many idividuals will not be determined by moral virtue. Instead they will become demagogues and follow their selfish agendas, and inevitably, our utopian society will cease to exist.

I think that the primary and realistic aims would be to wipe out poverty; increase the overall standard of education and well-being of the society as a whole, advocating social and humanitarian values; ensure an end to corporate manipulation and enslavement; and finally to try to spread these values worldwide.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from LeonardoDaVinci on 12:42 am on May 14, 2002
I too don't think that giving everyone the same salary will work, people work harder for rewards, it is a quality instilled in the human nature. By denying workers that important incentive, such a society will lag behind in terms of industrial and technological competitiveness and thus inevitably will lose many skilled workers to more competitive and hostile nations; consoquently, such a nation will render itself obsolete. However, there should be cap on all salaries, so that no one is significantly better off than others (i.e. no executives earning $1,000,000 a year on one hand; and a worker earning $10,000 on the other) and thus ensure that everyone lives in fairly comfortable manner and leads a happy life. This, reinforced with the right corporate and constitutional regulations and restrictions does not lead to capitalism as many of you might suggest, on the contrary, it will ensure that your workers are satisfied and that your nation as a whole will be self-sufficient.

Even though I am devout socialist, I believe that this is the simple truth that history teaches us; we can aim to create a utopian society, but the society is the sum of its individuals, and the actions of many idividuals will not be determined by moral virtue. Instead they will become demagogues and follow their selfish agendas, and inevitably, our utopian society will cease to exist.

I think that the primary and realistic aims would be to wipe out poverty; increase the overall standard of education and well-being of the society as a whole, advocating social and humanitarian values; ensure an end to corporate manipulation and enslavement; and finally to try to spread these values worldwide.

I agree whole heartedly, people should not be able to have an excesivley higher amount of pay han someone else but they still aren't paid the same as a person who barley works

[man in the red suit]

u don't see our picture, in utopian socialism, unlike other socialism, people need to work hard otherwise the system breaks down. This is enough to make me work!

[man in the red suit]

if u pay one person a slight bit more, it will grow like an infectious disease until it becomes large sums of money and therefore leads to capitalism. This is why we are firmly against salary caps. If u hate us now we will willingly accept that however we are firm believers in this concept. Sorry.

[Lardlad95]

I really doubt your theory. However you are correct the system will fail if people aren't willing to work will that should be incentive enough to work it usualy isn't in peoples minds

[man in the red suit]

what part of our theory do u doubt?

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from man in the red suit on 3:44 am on May 14, 2002
what part of our theory do u doubt?

The one about how slary caps can still lead to a class system

[man in the red suit]

o sorry

[RGacky3]

are there any more questions?

[Blasphemy]

there are communist communes in israel. they are called kibbutzim.

[man in the red suit]

yeah..........we never said there were not communes in Israel. What are you getting at? or did u just want to bring that to our attention?

[Blasphemy]

chill....i'm saying that the whole idea is not that new...

[RGacky3]

its a bit different, the kibuts are just utopian communes, our type of socialism is a system of many communes, interacting.

[man in the red suit]

we're not mad or anything, all we are saying is that our socialism is not just utopian socialism. It is a bureacracy of communes with different government policies as well as adjustments in socialism which are different from modern democratic socialism

[red senator]

Great ideas,

On the salary caps though, I think it is posible to keep a rewards system and not create a class system if the rewards are kept small and are thouroughly regulated.

If you could, please thouroughly explain the housing in this community union socialism.

[RGacky3]

The thing with that is when a person works hard the whole community gets rewarded, becouse the community is so small if some one does not work the whole community goes down as well as the person not working, how ever if they all work the whole community raises, that in it self is a reward. The housing, houses are provided to the people by the government, acording to their needs, if they have a large family of course they need a larger house than a single man.

[red senator]

Ok, if the government subsidises housing according to family size, then what was all the talk about people adding on to their houses? If they add on, does the house become their property, and even if not, what happens when the government has to reintroduce these "added-on" houses to public (reassign them after the inhabitants die or move out) what happens when someone gets a crappy regular house, and someone else gets a house with nice additions?

[RGacky3]

these are all minor details. Our book is sort of like the manifiesto, it only gives the main points, The houseing is something I will have to give some thought too.

[man in the red suit]

Quote: from red senator on 3:50 am on May 22, 2002
Ok, if the government subsidises housing then what was all the talk about people adding on to their houses?

Don't eat yourself up over small details. Leave that to the people to decide. lol I'm not insulting you. This is an excellent question, however one can not simply create an economic system flawlessly without mistakes, over night. Even Karl Marx made many mistakes. This makes him no less of a hero and icon.

We pretty much decided that house upgrades will not work and will result in social classes, which we do not want. We don't have all the answers yet but hopefuly we will soon. There are a few forks in the road but we'll get by. Do you have any solutions?............................

[hobo]

Most of your ideas look very good, but how big would the communes be? how would they be regulated? what would stop commune rivalary, which could lead to a civil war. Plus how would you take apart the big businesses that already exsist in your country

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from RGacky3 on 1:52 am on May 22, 2002
The thing with that is when a person works hard the whole community gets rewarded, becouse the community is so small if some one does not work the whole community goes down as well as the person not working, how ever if they all work the whole community raises, that in it self is a reward. The housing, houses are provided to the people by the government, acording to their needs, if they have a large family of course they need a larger house than a single man.



But the thing is that the community wont be rewaded should one person exceed his requirements at work yet another fails to do so. Their should be some type of reward system, some incentive. A margin of 15,000 dollars will not create a class society.

[man in the red suit]

i will answer hobo first then lard lad,
communes will consist of about 1000 people each. The communes will not fight with each other because they will be united. You don't see American states fighting with each other do you? As for stoping the big corporations, the useage of breaking down exclusive monopolies will occur with the implementation of government taxation.

[man in the red suit]

lardlad,
although my cappie-socialist friends agree with your ideas on salary caps, I don't I'm sorry. This is my reason why; you proposed the idea that a small amount of money wouldn't create social classes. Although this is a great idea to solve the incentive issue of labour in a society, it is capitalism to me and gacky. If you give a person a slightly bit of more money, it won't hurt for a while. When you do this however, you are encouraging greed, others will work even harder and you will have to give them an even higher salary cap until you basically split groups of individuals into social classes. Even a small difference in salary is capitalism. This is too capitalist in its nature to be a measurement of socialist reform. I am only trying to help you see things from our perspective. If you believe we are not seeing something, please tell us because we are still eager for solutions. This topic of salary caps, however, is something that Gacky and I have strong feelings against. I doubt thast you will be able to convince us otherwise but maybe you can. These are our opinions.
I know they differ from yours but that is all I can say. I am sorry. :(

(Edited by man in the red suit at 2:39 am on May 25, 2002)

[Lardlad95]

Your missing my point. THe entire point of a salary cap is that the wages can't exceed a certain amount. You are babling about raising the cap when people work even harder and that isn't even what I meant. Your twisting what i said.

THe cap wont rise due to a few people work really hard. THe only time the cap will rise is when the cost of living rises, then EVERYONE'S SALARY WILL BE RAISED ALONG WITH THE CAP.

[man in the red suit]

hmm. You maybe right but I'll have to give it a little more thought before I just willingly change my mind.

[hobo]

ok, that answers that question, but what about big corparations that will want to exsist in you country but will want to pay their elite workers very high salarys and may not come under your juristicion as international companies

[man in the red suit]

any corporation that wants to exist in any commune of our country would hve to follow the rules. In our socialism, All who are employed in a privately owned business are taxed according to their salary. The owners, who would ordinarily make more money than the workers would be taxed more, and so on and so forth. Do you catch my drift or do you need a little more in dpth explanation?

[hobo]

yeah i see what you are trying to create i'm just checking to see if you have thought things through.

[man in the red suit]

I've thought most things through. Do you think I'm missing something though?

Lardlad, You have been beggining to persuade me on this salary cap idea. Others have made it sound more logical now. I am begining to change my mind. Maybe this salary cap thing is a good idea. Now try to convince comrad Nomar! :)

(Edited by man in the red suit at 1:58 am on May 29, 2002)

[hobo]

Hmm i'm still not sure what exactly i think is missing. What will your policy be towards emigrants, accepting them into the communes. What will you do to people rebeling against your system

[lenin]

what will you do about doctors? why should they train for seven years if they will earn the same as a street cleaner?
sorry to be so blunt, but your views on socialism apart from being in the clouds are fucking stupid. you have no idea about human nature. there are so many more things you have to consider before you can call this system of government an actual system.
what about the military, what about foreign policy, what about law enforcement, what about the secret police to keep an eye on counter-revolutionaries, what if no-one wants to improve in there field, what about foriegn trade, what about the people who DON'T want to live in communes, what about loners who are simply individuals, what about social issues like abortion and gay rights, what about religion? answer the points above and i might put some thought into your system (once again, sorry fro being so blunt, but it is the truth).

[Lardlad95]

Don't start this secret police bullshit. DO you want the people to believe we are acting in their best intrest or not? If we serve the people like we say we are we wont need a secret police

you need to cut the Stalinitic purge bullshit

[lenin]

lardlad95, time to wake up, in the real world, not everyone agrees with you. maybe they do in your fantasy world but not here. in the real world some people might not like to live in your society.
ok then, scrap secret police and answer the other points. most importantly, why the fuck should a doctor train for 7 years when he has nothing to gain from it? what would you do if he refused to be a doctor, shoot him? oh no thats right, you don't agree with that! get out of the clouds!

[Lardlad95]

you are a dumbass. You think I don't know people wont agree with me? Of course I know that. All I'm saying is that being a blood thirsty asshole isn't going to make everyone love the government.

THat shit opressive. Thats exactly what the CIA did to Che. WHy the fuck should we be so damn hostile? The whole point is not to opress people. Killing people for having an opinion is the most opressive thing in the world

Your vision of SOcialism is totally warped. Instead of killing people for thinking why not try to solve their problems.

I pray to God that you never reach a position of power cuz your answer to everything is to off someone.

[Lardlad95]

By the way I'm not saying that some people shouldn't be killed cuz in the revolution lots of people will die.

How ever killing people for thinking is something Hitler would do

[lenin]

you still haven't answered my points!

[Lardlad95]

first of all you should be asking this to Suit man this was his idea

besides as far as incentive for work goes I'm in favor of a salary cap so people will feel rewaded but a class society wont arise

[man in the red suit]

I agree with lardlad. Don't bring in this secret police bullshit. Just because human nature goes against certain socialist concepts, it doesn't mean that you suppress the dissidents like stalin's purges. It is disgusting. And lenin, stop being such an ass. There is no need for the jouvenile insults. we are all comrads here. And don't give me that doctors farmers bullshit. I've heard that over and over again by many of my cappie friends. And if you want to talk about this subject, please do it in a respectable manner like lardlad. For one thing, you'l sound less jouvenile, and for another, you'l be more likely to convince others of your ideas and sound intellectual. Lardlad has been doing a fine job of acting like a mature intelectual. He's even convinced me on his salary cap ideas. Please, act mature.

[lenin]

hold on there comrade! i wasn't trying to be immature and if i was, i apologise.
i think its good that you have tried to come up with a new idea. that is what we need in 21st century communism, new ideas! i just feel that your idea is doomed to failure because it is open to being taken apart by capitalists!
how would you deal with the points i put at the bottom of my other post? foreign trade etc?

[hobo]

If you could pull off the socialist state well enough there would be no need for secret police whether you wanted them or not. The peoples condeming and the judgement which could lead to either deportation or imprisonment (not forever, just a few years - depending on the crime)
The idea is doomed to failure because it is far from finished as far as i can tell, if we tear it to pieces here then it can be improved before ever being put into practice.

[RGacky3]

both lardlad and lenin are right. Security is necessary to stop the cappies from elxpoiting. but there must be a limit. Lenin sorry about my comrad (man in the red suite) insulting you, you are right, I just think that it should not go to the point of oppression.

[man in the red suit]

I'm not insulting lenin gacky, I just think he needed to act more mature, Which he DID. I apologize to you as well lenin, however I don't think that secret police is the answer to our problems. The secret Police is a sign of oppression in my opinion. I am against oppression. We do need control but not at the cost of killing and torturing others. I am not a stalinist. I am a utopian socialist and I believe that my ideas are just as capable of being applied to modern society in European culture, as are yours. There is no need to argue. We have all brought up valuable points. I think that over all however, Me and Gacky have decided that salary caps should only be suitable for Private business ownership.
We also have agreed against the secret police. Sorry lenin.

Hobo has made a valuable point as well. We must all continue to discuss this topic to correct it before it is applied to society. Thanx comrads!

(Edited by man in the red suit at 2:45 am on May 31, 2002)

[man in the red suit]

By the way I think that the stalinists and liberals should stop fighting each other. I know it is more easily said than done but for god's sake man, you guys hate each other more than you hate the cappies. this aint right...

[man in the red suit]

Quote: from lenin on 2:10 pm on May 29, 2002
what will you do about doctors? why should they train for seven years if they will earn the same as a street cleaner?
sorry to be so blunt, but your views on socialism apart from being in the clouds are fucking stupid. you have no idea about human nature. there are so many more
things you have to consider before you can call this system of government an actual system.
what about the military, what about foreign policy, what about law enforcement, what about the secret police to keep an eye on counter-revolutionaries, what if no-one wants to improve in there field, what about foriegn trade, what about the people who DON'T want to live in communes, what about loners who are simply individuals, what about social issues like abortion and gay rights, what about religion? answer the points above and i might put some thought into your system (once again, sorry fro being so blunt, but it is the truth).


I finally got around to answering your questions.

Foreign trade- this is a toughy, the only one I truly havent found an answer for yet. You got any ideas?

Military-a military of the people, Every one should be forced to serve a 2 year period in the military as in Israel

Law enforcement-same as we have here, a regular police force. No need for any secret police, dissidents should have their views just as long as they don't interfere with our plans or try to rebel against us. There will be no need for secret executions and tortures. The police will dissolve uprisings and if the uprisings get out of hand, you bring in the military.

Dissidents- "loners"? who cares? they are free to wander around as long as they don't cause problems, when they attempt to overthrow the government, then you throw em in jail. Dissidents should be alowed to publish their views. When a government fails, you need change.

as for this social issues thing, what the hell does that have to do with our socialism? let the gays butt fuck each other and the teen mothers blow dead fetuses out their pussies. Who the hell cares? All of those arguments are liberal/republican arguments, not socialist.

(Edited by man in the red suit at 3:58 am on June 4, 2002)


(Edited by man in the red suit at 3:58 am on June 4, 2002)

[The Ax]

Hey,
I reckon your idea is mad. But i have two questions. How big would the communes be? and how would you plan to install the system? How long would representitive terms be?

The Ax

[marxistdisciple]

I have been reading this thread with interst - suitman, you have got some really good ideas here, and some things still to sort out, but don't let that put you off. I think like was said you need to work out arguments to the things that the cappies are gonna criticise you for, and figure out the complicated systems required. Keep your wording clear though, I sometimes find marx's writing style makes it difficult for me to understand his thinking clearly. If you write a clear, concise list of facts, and and FAQ and stuff that will be a good start against the critics. Also, your system has to make sense to all the cappies in the first place so you can gain new freedom fighters. Incentives are okay for certain things, like the slary caps you mentioned. what about "paying" people according to their ability/expertise in a particular area, in addition to a salry cap? Something like scale points like we have where I work (social services ) (sic.)
that would mean people would be paid the same whevever they work, but at different levels. sounds complicated, but you wouldn't have too much of a difference between min and max salries in any case.
Foreign trade sounds difficult, I suppose you'd have to prepare for the problems of countries in the past (like cuba for example.) Of course, if you were a country strong in exports, you could develop a trade agreement almost in bartering terms, based on supply and demand...i.e. if you have a lot of bananas you can trade your bananas for pasta in italy, and croissants in france :) That's a crude working, and of course capitalist nations would try and exploit it. Of course, if the nation the revolution occured in was the US....maybe a different story. If you start at the top, the hardest to crack, when it falls there would be such a knock on effect that you'd have cappies begging to join you :) I like the socialist standpoint - helps take care of a lot of pointless arguments cappies argue about...abortion, gay rights bal bla bla. If you take the standpoint anyone can do anything they like as long as it's with mutual consent and it doesn't affect anyone else -i.e. concequentialism etc. seems to help solve most those arguments.

-----------------------------------
They'll never be a nuclear war. Too much real estate is involved - Frank Zappa

[man in the red suit]

md,
thank you very much for your post. You are definitely right. We need to stay clear and have others ask questions to keep get all the bugs out. You can't simply create an economic/political system over night. I believe it takes a while. It is not easy to do this without runnig into problems.

As for ax, each commune will consist of about 1000 to 2000 people. Representitive terms will be 6 years each and can campaign infinitely. I didn't like the fact that BIll couldn't run for prez after his second term; therefore, we made it a rule that anyone can serve a term as many times as they want.

We really have no plan to install this idea anytime soon but if we do, I was thinking of campaigning in a small city in America as that one commune group did in Oregan, without poisoning people though, of course.

This community union socialism was basically an idea me and gacky had as we were fed up with the capitalism found in modern socialism.

p.s salary caps are ONLY for privately owned businesses. This will encourage people to start their own businesses which can serve many benefits to people such as variety in consumer products which are not available through government corporations.

well we're trying and we still need your help. Thanx a lot for all the help you guys have given us so far. We really apreciate it more than you would know!!

[man in the red suit]

I think that foreign trade should exist as bartering as md suggested and hopefuly prevent ourselves from being exploited in the process.

[Nateddi]

How can you have a commune of only 1,000-2,000 people? You would need a hell of a lot of representatives.

I would think atleast 500,000 per commune. Communes are not neighboorhoods, they are appx the size of a medium-large city. If we only have 1000 per commune, there would be great trouble and failure with dividing people up in this manner. This is what Mao tryed to do and fail (only he tryed 10,000 per commune).

[RGacky3]

commune sizes are decided by how big the country is and what is reasonable, for example a commune in Norway would be about 1000-2000 and commune in the U$ would be a lot bigger.

[man in the red suit]

yeah keep inmind that me and gacky are huge norway fans. there is no problem with 1000-2000 ppl per commune just as long as u don't have a lot of pimps rollin around knockin girls up and popin out babies, youre fine. Of course there is no problem with a large commune as you mentinoned, either. Yeah I wouldnt have a problem with large communes at all. keep in min nateddi that this is waht we had befun with as our plan, it never necessarily had to stay that way. Plus we had intended on having small neighbourly communes but it's all good nonetheless.

[RGacky3]

any thing else?