What is the real point

[Knight of Cydonia]

i don't know if someone had just made this kind of thread but since i was arguing with my friend about equality in Socialism/Communism country, so i would need some help to explain the point of this equality in Socialism/Communism country.

[Fawkes]

What's the point of equality? How about how there is no logical argument to suggest that all humans should not and are not equal.

[Knight of Cydonia]

and how's that?please give some useful information.

[Fawkes]

I don't really know what information I could provide. Your argument could just be that they don't have any information to suggest that humans are/should not be equal.

[Knight of Cydonia]

my friend said that equality didn't work 100%,cause if people got the same things, the same wages in work,so when do that country will move into a further development? and people's are no longer thinking about further development because of equality and equality will made people more lazy than ever (wtf? :huh: )

[Fawkes]

Advancements would be made to make life easier and to better the overall society.

[Knight of Cydonia]

and is it true that in a socialist/communist country, all aspecs ( economy, politics, industrial) are ruled by the government and no owner, the government owned all industry?


Advancements would be made to make life easier and to better the overall society
who will do the advancement?

[Demogorgon]

If he doesn't accept the argument that equality is a good thing in of itself then use Bertrand Russel's argument that the primary goal of socialism need not be equality but rather ensuring that the absolute maximum number of people enjoy the best life possible and that equality simply follows from that.

[Fawkes]

and is it true that in a socialist/communist country, all aspecs ( economy, politics, industrial) are ruled by the government and no owner, the government owned all industry?
In a socialist country, yes. In a communist "country", the means of production would be controlled by the community as a whole, hence the name "communism".



who will do the advancement?
There will still be scientists and engineers whose jobs are to research and build new technology.

[Everyday Anarchy]

Originally posted by knight of [email protected] 16, 2007 02:51 pm
my friend said that equality didn't work 100%,cause if people got the same things, the same wages in work,so when do that country will move into a further development? and people's are no longer thinking about further development because of equality and equality will made people more lazy than ever (wtf? :huh: )
What your friend described is not equality. Everyone having the same things is not equality. We don't want everyone to have the same things, we want people to have the equal opportunity to live their lives how they see fit.

Also, how does equality make people lazy? When people are no longer being oppressed by those higher than them, they are given much more freedom to learn, invent, practice, think, and discover whatever they can and feel like.

Scientists would still exist. They enjoy science and have a thirst for scientific knowledge. They're going to study and experiment still, regardless of their [nonexistent] paycheck.
Engineers would still exist. People who love tinkering with mechanics and whatnot will go on to create great devices.
Teachers would still exist. Those who love children and want to help improve the world literacy and intellect would naturally become teachers.

...I think you get the picture?

[Eleutherios]

If there is no point to equality, why should we not revert to feudal theocratic monarchism? Why not reinstitute slavery? Why not abolish women's suffrage?

The point of equality, as Everyday Anarchy said, is not to give everybody the same things, but to ensure that everybody has an equal opportunity to fulfill their desires. If we accept the proposition that the best economic system is that which brings the most pleasure to the most people, then the only system that makes any sense is some form of egalitarian socialism.

Psychologists have shown that happiness only increases with wealth to a certain degree. Once you have enough wealth to avoid starvation, disease, homelessness and other undesirable consequences of abject poverty, additional wealth doesn't have any real impact on your level of happiness. Capitalism is based upon the lie that more wealth always equals more happiness, thus the way to pursue happiness is to pursue wealth.

In the modern capitalist world, there are a lot of people who have to deal with the unhappiness that abject poverty brings, and a few people who have extremely large sums of wealth but are not made any happier by it. Combined, our industrialized society has the wealth and the technological capabilities to ensure that every single individual has enough to avoid the unhappiness of poverty. Therefore, wealth redistribution is the logical way to increase the combined happiness of all humanity.

[Sentinel]

What is the real point, of equality in Socialism/Communism?

If you are talking effiency, an equal society would be far superior to one ruled by a minority of profiteers. It's obvious really -- when the human being is the self-purpose of the society, things to increase people's living standards will get done. And that's really all that matters.


my friend said that equality didn't work 100%,cause if people got the same things, the same wages in work,so when do that country will move into a further development? and people's are no longer thinking about further development because of equality and equality will made people more lazy than ever

That criticism is so crappy. Firstly, communism is not about 'equal wages'. It's a society with no wage slavery at all -- a moneyless one. Like someone already said, the communist equality is about equal opportunity. Something capitalism claims to deliver but can't because of it's very nature -- it is both a system which requires class division to exist, and one in which the ones that are born into the ruling minority have a superior chances to remain in it compared to those of a worker rising out of his class.

Secondly, it's blatantly obvious that in a society where people could concentrate their daily lives on putting their dreams in effect instead of either working their asses off in a wage-slave job or competing with each other, the word creativity would get a whole new meaning. Everyday Anarchy and Marijuanarchy are spot on on this.

[Janus]

The point of equality in a communist society is to provide everyone with the same opportunity to pursue their life goals in a free and individual manner. It's as simple as that.

[cenv]

Look at what happens in a society where there isn't a reasonable amount of equality. Capitalism is a nice example. Significant inequity is tied to class society, so in a society without equality, those of the higher class end up dominating everything and exploiting the members of the lower class. In this case, capitalism as an economic system and social order creates the bourgeoisie and the proletariat, and the bourgeoisie ultimately exploits the proletariat and takes the fun out of every thing. This wouldn't be a problem if there was "equality".

However, keep in mind that communism isn't about some abstract ideal of "equality". It's simpler than that. It's that the workers are exploited and that it's about time we stood up and overthrew the bourgeoisie and the class system that keeps the majority of society down in the dust. While "equality" may sound like a needless ideal to the bourgeoisie and petty-bourgeoisie, most people realize that it's necessary to prevent exploitative social relations. I prefer to use the term "classlessness" instead of "equality" when referring to communism, though, as it's not as vague.

[RGacky3]

When you say equal there are different ways to think about it, for example I think of it in the philisophical sense of all of us are equal and no one has the right to dominate over any one else, economically or politically, that being the case people are equal to work together to benifit the community as a whole, that does'nt mean that some people won't have more than others, but because private Capital Property is done away with, it won't be a huge difference. Equality is more of a phylisocphical concept than a Material one (meaning everyone having the exact same stuff)