britian named worst place to be a kid by UN

[Guerrilla22]

By Astrid Zweynert and Kate Kelland
Wed Feb 14, 11:12 AM ET



LONDON (Reuters) - Britain is the worst country in the industrialized world in which to be a child, closely followed by the United States, the United Nations Children's Fund said on Wednesday.



The UNICEF charity looked at 40 indicators to gauge the lives of children in 21 economically advanced nations -- the first study of its kind -- and found Britain's children were among the poorest and most neglected.

Britain lagged behind on key measures of poverty and deprivation, happiness, relationships, and risky or bad behavior, the study showed.

It scored better for health and safety of children but languished in the bottom third for all other measures, giving it the lowest overall placing, just below the United States.

The United States was ranked worst for health and safety and only Britain scored lower for relationships and risky or bad behavior. The highest ranking for the United States was for education where it was ranked 12th out of the 21 countries.

The study found there was no consistent relationship between a country's wealth, as measured in gross domestic product per capita, and a child's quality of life.

The Czech Republic, for example, achieved a higher ranking than economically wealthier France, which was mired in the bottom third along with Britain and the United States.

Children's happiness was rated highest in northern Europe, with the Netherlands, Sweden and Denmark leading the list.

"All countries have weaknesses that need to be addressed and no country features in the top third of the rankings for all six dimensions," said David Bull, UNICEF UK's executive director.

DOG-EAT-DOG SOCIETY

Jonathan Bradshaw, professor of social policy at York University in England, one of the report's authors, put Britain's poor ratings down to long-term under-investment in children and a "dog-eat-dog" society.

"In a society which is very unequal, with high levels of poverty, it leads on to what children think about themselves and their lives. That's really what's at the heart of this," Bradshaw told a news conference.

Colette Marshall, UK director of charity Save the Children, said the report was a "shameful" verdict on Britain.

"Despite the UK's wealth, we are failing to give children the best possible start in life," she said in a statement.

She said "drastic action," including an injection of 4.5 billion pounds, was needed to meet a government target of halving the number of children in poverty by 2010.

A government spokeswoman said the data in the report -- mainly taken from 2000 to 2003 -- was not up to date and that reforms introduced through the "Every Child Matters" initiative had improved child welfare.

George Osborne, Treasury spokesman for the opposition Conservative Party, said the report was a damning indictment of the policies of British Prime Minister Tony Blair and his finance minister and likely successor Gordon Brown.

"After ten years of his welfare and education policies, our children today have the lowest well-being in the developed world," he said. Brown had "failed this generation of children and will fail the next if he's given a chance," Osborne said.

[Hate Is Art]

The thing with these studies is they ignore a lot of issues surrounding why kids are 'bad', for example they had Britain as 'worst' for the Sex, Drink and Drugs category, meaning basically that kids today experiment more. I personally think that its a fucking brilliant thing.

[Cheung Mo]

Originally posted by Hate Is [email protected] 16, 2007 01:15 pm
The thing with these studies is they ignore a lot of issues surrounding why kids are 'bad', for example they had Britain as 'worst' for the Sex, Drink and Drugs category, meaning basically that kids today experiment more. I personally think that its a fucking brilliant thing.
Try convincing Stalinists of that though. :angry:

[Hate Is Art]

I'm not sure what this has to do with Stalinists, surely it's about the negative effects of capitalism? And how they percieve lifestyle issues?

[Goatse]

Is it a coincidence that Netherlands has the best, and also has abortion on demand?

[Wanted Man]

I read an article on this, where they did some research in the Netherlands, and basically concluded that the Netherlands is some sort of libertarian utopia. Which is, quite frankly, utter crap. Before you consider emigrating, life is not perfect, we also have capitalism, and the neo-liberal demolishment under recent governments has, in fact, been intensifying lately.

Cheung Mo, I don't know whether to laugh or cry at your ignorance. I and some other Dutch posters here are in Marxist-Leninist movements, yet I don't think any of us object to sex, drugs, and alcohol.

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by Hate Is [email protected] 16, 2007 01:15 pm
The thing with these studies is they ignore a lot of issues surrounding why kids are 'bad', for example they had Britain as 'worst' for the Sex, Drink and Drugs category, meaning basically that kids today experiment more. I personally think that its a fucking brilliant thing.
The study also found that kids in the UK were amongst the poorest and most negelected of any industrialized country in the world, just ahead of the US. The fact that these two countries are two of the most cpaitlaist oriented countries in the world really says something.

[southernmissfan]

Originally posted by Ronnie James [email protected] 16, 2007 09:02 pm
I read an article on this, where they did some research in the Netherlands, and basically concluded that the Netherlands is some sort of libertarian utopia. Which is, quite frankly, utter crap. Before you consider emigrating, life is not perfect, we also have capitalism, and the neo-liberal demolishment under recent governments has, in fact, been intensifying lately.

Not to derail the thread, but I've seen some reports of increasing xenophobia and general racial strife due to the growing amounts of (largely non-white, Muslim) immigrants. Do you agree with this observation?

[The Anarchist Prince]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 03:38 pm
Is it a coincidence that Netherlands has the best, and also has abortion on demand?
It's also full of fascists/white supremacists. I'd still love to live there though.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 04:45 am
Not to derail the thread, but I've seen some reports of increasing xenophobia and general racial strife due to the growing amounts of (largely non-white, Muslim) immigrants. Do you agree with this observation?
Yeah, definitely. The so-called "Party for Freedom" won some seats last election, not as much as the Vlaams Belang in Belgium, but still quite worrying. This kind of stuff happens in Britain, France, Belgium, etc., and we're also no exception.

TAP: I wouldn't say it's full of nazis, although the ones that are here are quite noisy. They usually just phone their buddies from Germany(they still fall to their knees and salute whenever a group of Germans invades, just like their traitorous ancestors in 1940) to make them look bigger during rallies and the like.

[Hate Is Art]

The study also found that kids in the UK were amongst the poorest and most negelected of any industrialized country in the world, just ahead of the US. The fact that these two countries are two of the most cpaitlaist oriented countries in the world really says something.

Yeah I know, I was just hate that whole 'kid's today' thing people have got going on.

[Cheung Mo]

Originally posted by The Anarchist Prince+February 17, 2007 04:48 am--> (The Anarchist Prince @ February 17, 2007 04:48 am)
[email protected] 16, 2007 03:38 pm
Is it a coincidence that Netherlands has the best, and also has abortion on demand?
It's also full of fascists/white supremacists. I'd still love to live there though. [/b]
Pim Fortuyn pointed to a legitimate problem regarding the influence of socially reactionary religious people (He had some very choice words for both Islam and the Dutch Reform Church) on a society known for being socially progressive and fairly libertine. He was essentially harrassed by Islamic clergy and their extremist followers for being a prominnent flamboyantly gay pothead in a society where nobody else really gave a fuck about those things (and they rightfully shouldn't). Furthermore, I agree with his stance that 16.5 million people in a landmass slightly better than Maryland is already too many (Send the immigrants to Canada! We need more people.) It doesn't change the fact that he was economically the Second Coming of Margaret Thatcher (which is worse than revolting) or that his successors and many of his followers are genuine far-right bigots.

[grove street]

Originally posted by Hate Is [email protected] 16, 2007 01:15 pm
The thing with these studies is they ignore a lot of issues surrounding why kids are 'bad', for example they had Britain as 'worst' for the Sex, Drink and Drugs category, meaning basically that kids today experiment more. I personally think that its a fucking brilliant thing.
How the fuck is that something to be proud of?

All it shows that kids have nothing better to do then be delinquents, the less underage sex, drinking and drugs means the more time they can promote to worth while, cultural/mentaly stimulating activites like academics, music, art, sports ect.

The Liberal/Anarchist let children do want they want is flawed and dangerous to society and chidren. Kids need discpline and structure.

[Hate Is Art]

Shut. The. Fuck. Up.

You obviously haven't got a clue. Underage sex, drinking and drugs is what being a kid is for. You saying there is no worth in going out everynight and getting wrecked and generally having the best time of your life? Of course, these kids today should be wrapped up and given art to appreciate or watch BBC2 or something.

[The Anarchist Prince]

Originally posted by grove street+February 17, 2007 08:56 am--> (grove street @ February 17, 2007 08:56 am)
Hate Is [email protected] 16, 2007 01:15 pm
The thing with these studies is they ignore a lot of issues surrounding why kids are 'bad', for example they had Britain as 'worst' for the Sex, Drink and Drugs category, meaning basically that kids today experiment more. I personally think that its a fucking brilliant thing.
How the fuck is that something to be proud of?

All it shows that kids have nothing better to do then be delinquents, the less underage sex, drinking and drugs means the more time they can promote to worth while, cultural/mentaly stimulating activites like academics, music, art, sports ect.

The Liberal/Anarchist let children do want they want is flawed and dangerous to society and chidren. Kids need discpline and structure. [/b]
Yeah, Heaven fucking forbid they learn anything on their own, or make their own choices. Or you can encase them in fucking bubble wrap until they hit 21. I thought being a kid was to have a good time? Christ.

[Enragé]

Originally posted by Cheung Mo+February 17, 2007 01:11 pm--> (Cheung Mo @ February 17, 2007 01:11 pm)
Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 17, 2007 04:48 am

[email protected] 16, 2007 03:38 pm
Is it a coincidence that Netherlands has the best, and also has abortion on demand?
It's also full of fascists/white supremacists. I'd still love to live there though.
Pim Fortuyn pointed to a legitimate problem regarding the influence of socially reactionary religious people (He had some very choice words for both Islam and the Dutch Reform Church) on a society known for being socially progressive and fairly libertine. He was essentially harrassed by Islamic clergy and their extremist followers for being a prominnent flamboyantly gay pothead in a society where nobody else really gave a fuck about those things (and they rightfully shouldn't). Furthermore, I agree with his stance that 16.5 million people in a landmass slightly better than Maryland is already too many (Send the immigrants to Canada! We need more people.) It doesn't change the fact that he was economically the Second Coming of Margaret Thatcher (which is worse than revolting) or that his successors and many of his followers are genuine far-right bigots. [/b]
the netherlands isnt "full" by a long shot. Except for the randstad it isnt even remotely crowded, and i even like crowded.

Also, pim fortuyn didnt just criticise Islam, he basically put muslim against non-muslim, antagonising people.

Without his death we would be far worse off.

[Hate Is Art]

(Send the immigrants to Canada! We need more people.)

I hope that was a joke.

[foreverfaded]

where is it that you found this article?
i want to read up on it and the author (or publication)

[Mukunda]

Originally posted by grove [email protected] 17, 2007 01:56 pm
How the fuck is that something to be proud of?

All it shows that kids have nothing better to do then be delinquents, the less underage sex, drinking and drugs means the more time they can promote to worth while, cultural/mentaly stimulating activites like academics, music, art, sports ect.

The Liberal/Anarchist let children do want they want is flawed and dangerous to society and chidren. Kids need discpline and structure.
I agree.

Drugs and alcohol while okay for people who can maintain control are fine, the problem is when one becomes addicted and therefore no longer has freedom. I define freedom as not having a master, and an addiction is something that is a master of you, you are no longer in control of yourself, the addiction is in control of you.

I wouldn't say that all anarchist's are in favour of kids or anyone going out and getting drunk and doing drugs. I class myself as anarchist, anarcho-pacifist to be more specific. I myself would much rather a night of mathematics, intellectual discussion or reading, than getting drunk and high on drugs, though I never drink or do drugs anyway. It is though, my own free choice, and people should have that, it's just a shame when they get to the point of addiction and are in the control of the substance, rather than being in control of the substance.

(First post, hopefully I don't get abused for this, seems I have a rather unpopular opinion from reading this thread.)

[Karl Marx's Camel]

the less underage sex, drinking and drugs


Could you define "underage", "kids"?

[Vyru]

I can believe it, it's a fucking joke, and I should know - I'm growing up here!

I've been heavily bullied in schools because I refused to conform to social norms, which results in me now being home educated. And we're talking 12 year old drug addicts carrying blades here.

It seems you've done alright for yourself if by the age of 16, you have an ASBO (Anti-Social behavioural order) - Ordinary people live in fear of attack from youths (Chav Culture - Google it). It was only the other day a boy of my age was shot and killed in London.

England really isn't the wonderful, lush, tea-sipping, jovial nation it's stereotyped to be, it's a complete dive, really.

The education system is shit, in so far as the pupil has no say in what he learns, you're pushed onto an underpaid job, probably doing something you didn't want to do, but it's the only options, as you don't have the qualifications you would like (see above. xD)

The government is a complete joke, also (Doesn't take a genius to figure that one out, though) - Power seems to be handed down from one slimeball to the other.

My fingers are tired. [email protected]

[Pirate Utopian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 07:01 pm
Also, pim fortuyn didnt just criticise Islam, he basically put muslim against non-muslim, antagonising people.

Without his death we would be far worse off.
true, true.
now we have loads of politicians following his style like Wilders (who recently didnt want 2 people to become minister because they have double nationalities), Verdonk and ofcourse EenNL.

worst of all we are now stuck with a mostly christian party government <_<

[Mukunda]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 10:50 pm

the less underage sex, drinking and drugs


Could you define "underage", "kids"?
Ask the kids maybe? Though then a lot of them would just say what adults have told them.

It&#39;s a hard one and I wouldn&#39;t think that you couldn&#39;t have a one size fits all definition.

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 08:59 pm
where is it that you found this article?
i want to read up on it and the author (or publication)
The report was put out by the UN. As for the article its from the associated press.

[Enragé]

"
Drugs and alcohol while okay for people who can maintain control are fine, the problem is when one becomes addicted and therefore no longer has freedom. I define freedom as not having a master, and an addiction is something that is a master of you, you are no longer in control of yourself, the addiction is in control of you"


SO THAT WHY YOU SHOULD
be abe to
FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF

<3

[Mukunda]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2007 12:50 am
"
Drugs and alcohol while okay for people who can maintain control are fine, the problem is when one becomes addicted and therefore no longer has freedom. I define freedom as not having a master, and an addiction is something that is a master of you, you are no longer in control of yourself, the addiction is in control of you"


SO THAT WHY YOU SHOULD
be abe to
FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF

<3
I didn&#39;t say you shouldn&#39;t be able to. I pointed out the problems with the stupid teenage theory of trying everything. I know it seems to be hard for people to be able to switch on their brains and try to think about consequences, but it&#39;d certainly help a lot if people did.

No one but you should be able to decide what you can and can&#39;t do with your own body, so long as you&#39;re not harming others like some drug addicts unfortunately end up doing, but that is such a tiny amount that it&#39;s not really worth making a fuss about.

If you&#39;re sure that you can control yourself, then I see no problem with you doing drugs, it&#39;s the handful of people who get addicted that are the problem, for themselves and others.

[phoenixoftime]

I completely agree that children, and indeed people in general, need discipline and structure. But the problem which issues such as sex and drugs is that there&#39;s always a bunch of reactionaries screaming for ageist prohibitionary laws and other such short-sighted measures.

Take alcohol for example. It is an easy pill for the public to swallow when a politician rallies around raising drinking ages and whatnot. But when, like in countries like Scotland and New Zealand, you have a culture of excessive drinking and minimal alcohol education, you are never going to improve drinking habits by limiting what little education is available - experience. And it&#39;s ridiculous to claim someone who is 18 will suddenly know how to use alcohol better than they did a year ago.

Initiatives for education on alcohol and drug usage and safe sex are the way to avoid the potentially catastrophic effects on the health of a nation.

If you want to push for structured, disciplined youth education, you&#39;d be far better on focussing on leadership and personal development, which creates people who can critically analyse, make decisions for themselves, care for the needs of others etc.

[Hate Is Art]

I myself would much rather a night of mathematics, intellectual discussion or reading, than getting drunk and high on drugs

You poor thing.


It seems you&#39;ve done alright for yourself if by the age of 16, you have an ASBO (Anti-Social behavioural order) - Ordinary people live in fear of attack from youths (Chav Culture - Google it). It was only the other day a boy of my age was shot and killed in London

The thing I have against this point of view is how do you define &#39;chav&#39;? Are you just being classist because a lot of &#39;chavs&#39; come from working class families? What is your exact point about the &#39;kids today&#39;? These are kids who are just alienated completely from what society deems the &#39;normal&#39; lifestyles. The fact they have such a beautiful attitude to destruction of social norms should be wholly embraced. We are kicking the shit of this Thatcherite bullshit system we&#39;ve been born into. Fuck you.


I know it seems to be hard for people to be able to switch on their brains and try to think about consequences, but it&#39;d certainly help a lot if people did.

What are these consequences of experimenting? Having a fucking good time mainly.


If you want to push for structured, disciplined youth education, you&#39;d be far better on focussing on leadership and personal development, which creates people who can critically analyse, make decisions for themselves, care for the needs of others etc.

I think the thing is we have to ask why young adults today are doing these things? Education won&#39;t do shit unless we address the symtoms that cause street gangs, child alcoholism etc.

I live in one of the poorest areas of London, and the entire area has been in the midst of a gang war for a couple of months now, we have to look at what makes people join a gang, buy a gun, etc not &#39;educate&#39; a kid that shooting someone is bad, when they see the gang lifestyle as the only way out of a system thats failed them.

[Mukunda]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2007 03:24 am
I completely agree that children, and indeed people in general, need discipline and structure. But the problem which issues such as sex and drugs is that there&#39;s always a bunch of reactionaries screaming for ageist prohibitionary laws and other such short-sighted measures.

Take alcohol for example. It is an easy pill for the public to swallow when a politician rallies around raising drinking ages and whatnot. But when, like in countries like Scotland and New Zealand, you have a culture of excessive drinking and minimal alcohol education, you are never going to improve drinking habits by limiting what little education is available - experience. And it&#39;s ridiculous to claim someone who is 18 will suddenly know how to use alcohol better than they did a year ago.

Initiatives for education on alcohol and drug usage and safe sex are the way to avoid the potentially catastrophic effects on the health of a nation.

If you want to push for structured, disciplined youth education, you&#39;d be far better on focussing on leadership and personal development, which creates people who can critically analyse, make decisions for themselves, care for the needs of others etc.
You&#39;re from New Zealand?

Anyway, we do have a bit of a public education thing going on for drinking here, hopefully it will help, we&#39;ve had one for smoking for a long time and that has I believe helped, though a lot of people do still smoke, though hopefully now it&#39;s their own choice rather than them being pressured in to it. People now understand if someone says no to a cigarette.

HIA, if you would like to be replied to, then you can be polite, otherwise I&#39;ll be more than happy to ignore you.

[Guerrilla22]

How this end up becoming a debate about drug and alcohol use?

[Mukunda]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2007 04:54 am
How this end up becoming a debate about drug and alcohol use?
Just kids using drugs and drinking alcohol, and whether allowing it will help the situation in Britain or not.

Of course it doesn&#39;t matter whether it&#39;s allowed or not, though I think that the use or perhaps rather the abuse of drugs and alcohol is damaging to communities.

What is needed is education about them, and help for those that want to get out of the control of drugs and alcohol (though that may be expensive?).

Another thought is the fact that drug dealers and companies that produce alcohol are happy to have people within their control, now I don&#39;t think that many in the left would be happy with drug dealers and alcohol producing companies being in controlling, dominating positions over people.

A big part of freedom is the ability to be in control of yourself.

[commiecrusader]

QUOTE
I myself would much rather a night of mathematics, intellectual discussion or reading, than getting drunk and high on drugs



You poor thing.

What is the point in you saying this? It doesn&#39;t help the conversation or debate. Just because someone doesn&#39;t conform to your norms doesn&#39;t make them in any way less fortunate than you.


The thing I have against this point of view is how do you define &#39;chav&#39;? Are you just being classist because a lot of &#39;chavs&#39; come from working class families? What is your exact point about the &#39;kids today&#39;? These are kids who are just alienated completely from what society deems the &#39;normal&#39; lifestyles. The fact they have such a beautiful attitude to destruction of social norms should be wholly embraced. We are kicking the shit of this Thatcherite bullshit system we&#39;ve been born into. Fuck you.

The expression &#39;chav&#39; isn&#39;t classist as far as I&#39;m aware most people use it. It doesn&#39;t mean working class scum or whatever, it just means the sort of pricks who seem to gain enjoyment from generally being arseholes, whether working class or not. Their &#39;beautiful attitudes to destruction of social norms&#39; are not in fact beautiful. There is no purpose behind these wanton acts of being a prick, they don&#39;t attempt to seek a change in society, just to make society miserable for people who aren&#39;t the same as them.

What are these consequences of experimenting? Having a fucking good time mainly.

No-one is saying that you can&#39;t have fun experimenting with drugs, all people have said is that there are consequences to using them, which people should be aware of before deciding to try the substance or not, and it is important to stay in control of these substances and not become addicted, when it becomes a problem.

I think the thing is we have to ask why young adults today are doing these things? Education won&#39;t do shit unless we address the symtoms that cause street gangs, child alcoholism etc.

I live in one of the poorest areas of London, and the entire area has been in the midst of a gang war for a couple of months now, we have to look at what makes people join a gang, buy a gun, etc not &#39;educate&#39; a kid that shooting someone is bad, when they see the gang lifestyle as the only way out of a system thats failed them.
Finally you have made a decent, well thought out statement. Clearly the causes of this behaviour are social conditions and the failure of the capitalist system to look after the majority of people. However, kids behaving in shit ways doesn&#39;t benefit anyone. If these children all took up an interest in something constructive, like leftist politics, rather than just being reactionary, then maybe we could actually start to change the system that breeds this behaviour.

[phoenixoftime]

You&#39;re from New Zealand?
Yes, and I also have relatives and friends in Scotland, while I have studied the debate on the issue here which has been raging on for years.

I&#39;m not quite sure how that is relevant to what I said, however.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by Cheung Mo+February 17, 2007 01:11 pm--> (Cheung Mo @ February 17, 2007 01:11 pm)
Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 17, 2007 04:48 am

[email protected] 16, 2007 03:38 pm
Is it a coincidence that Netherlands has the best, and also has abortion on demand?
It&#39;s also full of fascists/white supremacists. I&#39;d still love to live there though.
Pim Fortuyn pointed to a legitimate problem regarding the influence of socially reactionary religious people (He had some very choice words for both Islam and the Dutch Reform Church) on a society known for being socially progressive and fairly libertine. He was essentially harrassed by Islamic clergy and their extremist followers for being a prominnent flamboyantly gay pothead in a society where nobody else really gave a fuck about those things (and they rightfully shouldn&#39;t). Furthermore, I agree with his stance that 16.5 million people in a landmass slightly better than Maryland is already too many (Send the immigrants to Canada&#33; We need more people.) It doesn&#39;t change the fact that he was economically the Second Coming of Margaret Thatcher (which is worse than revolting) or that his successors and many of his followers are genuine far-right bigots. [/b]
Right. Just shut the fuck up, now. You have no idea what you&#39;re talking about.

[Whitten]

Originally posted by Hate Is [email protected] 18, 2007 04:09 am

It seems you&#39;ve done alright for yourself if by the age of 16, you have an ASBO (Anti-Social behavioural order) - Ordinary people live in fear of attack from youths (Chav Culture - Google it). It was only the other day a boy of my age was shot and killed in London

The thing I have against this point of view is how do you define &#39;chav&#39;? Are you just being classist because a lot of &#39;chavs&#39; come from working class families? What is your exact point about the &#39;kids today&#39;? These are kids who are just alienated completely from what society deems the &#39;normal&#39; lifestyles. The fact they have such a beautiful attitude to destruction of social norms should be wholly embraced. We are kicking the shit of this Thatcherite bullshit system we&#39;ve been born into. Fuck you.
Chav isn&#39;t classist towards the working class. Chavs are scum. They recognise no human decency and seem to engage in crime and cause social nuicence for fun.

[here for the revolution]

hi im a kid in england and i can tell u why it is the worst place to be a kid.
we have NO freedom.
everywhere we go there is always somebody telling us we can&#39;t do this and that because of health and safety, my local squash club got shut down because of the fact that ít was &#96;too remote&#96;. what a load of garbage, add to this the fact that as soon as you step out of line you&#39;re immediately whacked in the face with an ASBO&#33; and they wonder why...hardly surprising with Tony Blair as prime minister.
in response to the recent shooting of several kids in London he claimed &#96;we must lower the age at which children can be charged with gun offences.&#96; WTF?&#33; you need to STOP them getting them in the first place&#33;

[Vyru]

Originally posted by Hate Is [email protected] 18, 2007 04:09 am



It seems you&#39;ve done alright for yourself if by the age of 16, you have an ASBO (Anti-Social behavioural order) - Ordinary people live in fear of attack from youths (Chav Culture - Google it). It was only the other day a boy of my age was shot and killed in London

The thing I have against this point of view is how do you define &#39;chav&#39;? Are you just being classist because a lot of &#39;chavs&#39; come from working class families? What is your exact point about the &#39;kids today&#39;? These are kids who are just alienated completely from what society deems the &#39;normal&#39; lifestyles. The fact they have such a beautiful attitude to destruction of social norms should be wholly embraced. We are kicking the shit of this Thatcherite bullshit system we&#39;ve been born into. Fuck you.

So we fight it with stupidity? With arson attacks, murders, stabbings, rape, and gang violence? Last time I checked &#39;Chav&#39; wasn&#39;t a class, it was a culture. I am soooooo classist, being from a working class family, and being a communist. You&#39;ve got me DOWN TO A TEE&#33;.

They&#39;re such a bunch of fucking heroes, aren&#39;t they? :blink:

[stu_t]

ok first of all how are we going to help the world if we cannot agree on basic social issues. Surely argueing about this crap is exactly what the fascists want?

Also yeah growing up in Britain is pretty shit. I myself come from quite an affluent family but just looking around I see the legacy of Thatcher everywhere. &#39;Chavs&#39;, who seem to be the subject of quite heated debate here, become as they are because thyey have nothing better, because they have grown up in poverty caused by thatchers government. They grow up surrounded by crime and therefore engage in crime.

What Britain need to do is focus on stopping the big companies and corporations stopping the working class rise up out of what they have. The kids born in city centres have crap schools cos no-one wants to work there so they get crap qualifications, crap jobs and crap lives. Thank you very much Maggie.

[Ultra-Violence]

I can believe it, it&#39;s a fucking joke, and I should know - I&#39;m growing up here&#33;

I&#39;ve been heavily bullied in schools because I refused to conform to social norms, which results in me now being home educated. And we&#39;re talking 12 year old drug addicts carrying blades here.

It seems you&#39;ve done alright for yourself if by the age of 16, you have an ASBO (Anti-Social behavioural order) - Ordinary people live in fear of attack from youths (Chav Culture - Google it). It was only the other day a boy of my age was shot and killed in London.

England really isn&#39;t the wonderful, lush, tea-sipping, jovial nation it&#39;s stereotyped to be, it&#39;s a complete dive, really.

The education system is shit, in so far as the pupil has no say in what he learns, you&#39;re pushed onto an underpaid job, probably doing something you didn&#39;t want to do, but it&#39;s the only options, as you don&#39;t have the qualifications you would like (see above. xD)

The government is a complete joke, also (Doesn&#39;t take a genius to figure that one out, though) - Power seems to be handed down from one slimeball to the other.

My fingers are tired. [email protected]


WOW&#33; seems real similiar to the shit here in america commrade dang i thought we had it bad. Qeustion do you guys have a big meth problem like we have here and what durgs are big over there? Over here METH is huge man im telling you but yeah fuck what about other european countries any stoires that relate commrades?

[here for the revolution]

id just like to point out that most of the chavs that i know are in fact quite rich, i am not a chav and consider myself below average in terms of riches. Quite often they are just bored rich kids who want to look cool, however there are quite a lot of poor chavs too i guess...

[Hate Is Art]

The expression &#39;chav&#39; isn&#39;t classist as far as I&#39;m aware most people use it. It doesn&#39;t mean working class scum or whatever, it just means the sort of pricks who seem to gain enjoyment from generally being arseholes, whether working class or not.

The word &#39;Chav&#39; comes from South London slang for a &#39;kid&#39; essentially, modern dictionary definition is



Noun
chav (plural chavs)
(UK, pejorative) A working-class youth, especially one associated with aggression, poor education, and a perceived "common" taste in clothing and lifestyle

From Wiktionary


Their &#39;beautiful attitudes to destruction of social norms&#39; are not in fact beautiful. There is no purpose behind these wanton acts of being a prick, they don&#39;t attempt to seek a change in society, just to make society miserable for people who aren&#39;t the same as them.

What? They don&#39;t seek to make society miserable for everyone, they seek to get some enjoyment from the system; they are the reality of capitilism, no hopes, no prospects, given up on as soon as they&#39;re born. That is what they are up against.


Chav isn&#39;t classist towards the working class. Chavs are scum. They recognise no human decency and seem to engage in crime and cause social nuicence for fun.

See my points above, and try and refrain from making purely abusurdist statements.


So we fight it with stupidity? With arson attacks, murders, stabbings, rape, and gang violence? Last time I checked &#39;Chav&#39; wasn&#39;t a class, it was a culture. I am soooooo classist, being from a working class family, and being a communist. You&#39;ve got me DOWN TO A TEE&#33;.

Stupidity? They haven&#39;t had a decent enough education for it to be any different, when the only way for them to get buy is either by working a shit job for no money, or getting involved in drug dealing (easy money) and gangs.

Chav is a working class culture, like cloth caps, like Trade Unionism, like the Labour Party. Chav isn&#39;t a Middle or Upper Class culture.

[stu_t]

I agree, as I already said they have been forced into this by the aftermath of the Thatcherite government. They have been failed by the people and have nothing else better to do.

[Mukunda]

They certainly aren&#39;t working class though, but they are the product of a failed system.

[Hate Is Art]

Care to explain how they aren&#39;t working class?

[Mukunda]

They are often below even the working class, many are on government benefits, some of them work though for very low wages, they are generally looked down upon by all, even the working class.

I&#39;m too tired to explain what I really mean though.

[Hate Is Art]

I understood what you meant - just wanted you to clarify it. I would describe them as an underclass, socially excluded from society at the most extreme, they are also though part of the working class.

[commiecrusader]

What? They don&#39;t seek to make society miserable for everyone, they seek to get some enjoyment from the system; they are the reality of capitilism, no hopes, no prospects, given up on as soon as they&#39;re born. That is what they are up against.
Obviously their powers aren&#39;t far-reaching enough to ruin everyone&#39;s life, but they do just act like pricks to anyone that isnt a chav. Just because their lives exemplify everything that capitalism is bad for, doesn&#39;t mean that their behaviour is either justified or right.

[here for the revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 12:32 am
They certainly aren&#39;t working class though, but they are the product of a failed system.
I agree, they aren&#39;t working class. However i go to a very &#96;prostigious&#96; school, and we have everything we need for a good education, they simply choose to ignore this and throw their lives away for the sake of &#96;looking cool&#96;, it is not the systems fault. if they want to throw their lives away for the sake of &#96;looking cool&#96; fine, just don&#39;t get in the way of others success

[The Grey Blur]

I&#39;ve been jumped three times in Belfast, once by loyalists, once by chavs and once by punks. I have lots of protestant, chav and punk friends. Maybe people should stop generalising people and actually get out in real life and judge people as individuals.

[Hate Is Art]

Originally posted by here for the [email protected] 19, 2007 05:55 pm
I agree, they aren&#39;t working class. However i go to a very &#96;prostigious&#96; school, and we have everything we need for a good education, they simply choose to ignore this and throw their lives away for the sake of &#96;looking cool&#96;, it is not the systems fault. if they want to throw their lives away for the sake of &#96;looking cool&#96; fine, just don&#39;t get in the way of others success
What? Are you even a revolutionary leftist? Your &#39;success&#39;? Of course, you&#39;re entitled to it because you go to a &#39;prostigious&#39; school. Is it so &#39;prostigious&#39; that you haven&#39;t even taught you to spell Prestigious?

Everything about the alienation of working class kids that makes them to turn to violence is the systems fault.

[Mukunda]

Originally posted by Hate Is [email protected] 19, 2007 09:18 pm
Everything about the alienation of working class kids that makes them to turn to violence is the systems fault.
Rubbish, you can&#39;t blame the system for everything, people are responsible for their own behaviour, the system can mold that they, but we are responsible for our own actions.

[here for the revolution]

Originally posted by Hate Is [email protected] 19, 2007 09:18 pm
What? Are you even a revolutionary leftist? Your &#39;success&#39;? Of course, you&#39;re entitled to it because you go to a &#39;prostigious&#39; school. Is it so &#39;prostigious&#39; that you haven&#39;t even taught you to spell Prestigious?

Everything about the alienation of working class kids that makes them to turn to violence is the systems fault.
i am a fukkin leftist, i passed a TEST to get in this skool my rich &#96;daddy&#96; didnt pay for me to get in, i live side by side with these chavs in a crappy house, some who go to the worst schools in the county, some who go to the same one as me. it was only some crappy test that decided who went to a good school, not how rich you were. i look one way ive got mr moneybags next to me, i look the other and ive got the kid who lives in a council flat with his divorced mum. and ill tell you who the chavs are at my school, the rich kids, the ones who show off their new phones and ipods and £50 nike schoolbags, thats the systems fault, giving these idiots the money not making poor kids into chavs. i accept some poor people are chavs, but the majority i know are rich. also idc i cant spell &#96;prestigious&#96;. as mukanda put it you cant blame everything on the system, if you do then you are most likely a complete screw-up yourself, sometimes it is lifestyle. i have a **** home life, and it has never turned me into a chav like so many people have thought, ive been through depression and EVERYTHING and ive somehow managed to stay on trak and not end up a chav, sure it is quite often a symbol of rubbish home life but not always, i know i see these people every day of my life, and don&#39;t you dare accuse me of not being leftist, if i get a good education then there is more chance of me making a difference, I AM NOT PAYING FOR IT.IF I CAN PASS A SIMPLE TEST TO IMPROVE MY LIFE WHY NOT????

[here for the revolution]

Originally posted by Hate Is [email protected] 19, 2007 09:18 pm
Is it so &#39;prostigious&#39; that you haven&#39;t even taught you to spell Prestigious?


oh yeh i meant to put rich in &#96; &#96; as well im poor but finally...for insultin me &#96;hate is art&#96; im gonna bite ur ass

nice english u put there dont ya fink? shows my PROSTIGIOUSness is a good fing, glad to hav u on the left wing m8, im sure ul help a lot

[here for the revolution]

and another thing &#96;HATE IS ART&#96;, at no point did i say that i was a genius and was having success, i simply have the politeness not to throw spanners in the works of other peoples success. who lets face it would still be useful in a communist society, we would still need scientists, mathematicians etc. deliberately stopping this would grow a nation as thick as pigpoo who wouldn&#39;t be any use to anyone. I AGREE A GOOD EDUCATION SHOULD BE AVAILABLE TO ALL but at the end of the day the rubbish schools are rubbish due to the behavioural problems of the students, which is caused by another factor, which is what we are now arguing over.they don&#39;t want to listen in class and learn, if they did then the rubbish schools would become better, as shools are usually judged on grades.

i hope that we can all move on from discussing my leftism as you have all now hopefully realised that &#96;hate is art&#96; is a plonker :P , and actually get back to discussing WHY britain is the worst place to be a kid.

equality is a right not a privilege

[Whitten]

Chavs are uneducated because they choose to be. They turn away fron the poor education they are actually offered and, in my experiance, attempt to ruin the chance of everyone else in their classes to get an education.

The majority of Chavs become Lumpen, regardless of their parents backgrounds, and I know a good deal of them from middle class backgrounds (they can afford more "bling").

They have no right to cause general harassment of decent hard working people for their own enjoyment.

[Fodman]

that study proved that inequality is the cause of crime - the 4 countries with the lowest crime rates in the study were all countries with the lowest economic inequality.

hmm....

[grove street]

Originally posted by Mukunda+February 19, 2007 10:19 pm--> (Mukunda @ February 19, 2007 10:19 pm)
Hate Is [email protected] 19, 2007 09:18 pm
Everything about the alienation of working class kids that makes them to turn to violence is the systems fault.
Rubbish, you can&#39;t blame the system for everything, people are responsible for their own behaviour, the system can mold that they, but we are responsible for our own actions. [/b]
&#39;&#39;Men are created by circumstances just as much as men create circumstances&#39;&#39;. Karl Marx

It&#39;s a two way thing.

Our job is to empower and educate the working/under class, not make excuses for them.