Wild animals other organisms

[colorlessman]

Do wild animals and other organisms have ownership concepts or instincts like humans do over land, natural resources, knowledge and the earth?

By the way, I don't think private ownership is part of human nature. Our ancestors for a long time lived nomadic lives with out ownership ideas. They traveled along and about and settled in free land. Wherever they felt like it and moved whenever they felt like it. Sort of like free land access. No one had monopoly over land because it belonged to all to use when needed. They respected each other is use of the land and settlement.

Natural resources are a product of the earth not human labour so how do capitalists justify private ownership of such resources?

Commodities are products of human labour so how capitalists justify profits?

[wtfm8lol]

Our ancestors for a long time lived nomadic lives with out ownership ideas. They traveled along and about and settled in free land. Wherever they felt like it and moved whenever they felt like it. Sort of like free land access. No one had monopoly over land because it belonged to all to use when needed. They respected each other is use of the land and settlement.

you have an extremely innocent view of how it was back then. do you honestly think those nomads didn't kill each other all of the time for resources and good hunting grounds?


Natural resources are a product of the earth not human labour so how do capitalists justify private ownership of such resources?

simple: private ownership of resources ensures that they will be used more efficiently than if everyone had free access to them. this is because if someone owns some resource, it is in his best interest to use it as well as he can, whereas if no one owns the resources, an individual person will not gain anything from using them wisely and will not lose anything from using them unwisely.

[JazzRemington]

you have an extremely innocent view of how it was back then. do you honestly think those nomads didn't kill each other all of the time for resources and good hunting grounds?

There's no evidence that they did this all of the time. Certainly, there probably were minor scuffles, but the whole "war of all against all" is counter to anthropological evidence.


simple: private ownership of resources ensures that they will be used more efficiently than if everyone had free access to them. this is because if someone owns some resource, it is in his best interest to use it as well as he can, whereas if no one owns the resources, an individual person will not gain anything from using them wisely and will not lose anything from using them unwisely.

Once again, as with just about everything capitalists and capitalism supporters believe, there is absolutely no conclusive evidence to support this assertion. If private ownership of resources is a good thing, then I wonder why all the fighting in third-world countries is over.

[wtfm8lol]

There's no evidence that they did this all of the time. Certainly, there probably were minor scuffles, but the whole "war of all against all" is counter to anthropological evidence.

are we talking about before there were enough humans to populate all of the desirable lands because if so, obviously there wasn't much need for trouble, but once the most desirable land became scarcer, there wouldve been more violence than appears in your buddy's utopian primitivist view.


If private ownership of resources is a good thing, then I wonder why all the fighting in third-world countries is over.

the fact that they live in shitholes and can't produce enough for everyone to live decent lives

[The Anarchist Prince]

They didn't "casually" move. They moved due to lack of resources, disease, or some other bigger, tougher tribe moving in. It wasn't like "HEY KIDS, WE'RE GOING TO DISNEYWORLD!" .

[colonelguppy]

animals are very territorial, they have developedseveral ways of telling each other what areas belongs to them.

[JazzRemington]

Originally posted by wtfm8lol+--> (wtfm8lol)are we talking about before there were enough humans to populate all of the desirable lands because if so, obviously there wasn't much need for trouble, but once the most desirable land became scarcer, there wouldve been more violence than appears in your buddy's utopian primitivist view.[/b]

Depends on what you were imlpying. Before the agricultural revolution, my assertion stands that there is no evidence to support that people were violently competing with one another. After the revolution, population sizes increased, but they really fought more over resources than available land. Mostly because now they actually had a reason to do it.


the fact that they live in shitholes and can't produce enough for everyone to live decent lives

You've taken my statement out of context. Or I didn't put it in enough of a context. Either way, you've taken it out of context. The fact is that when resources are privatized in first and third-world countries, the result is generally price hikes, which pretty much pisses off the people because they can't obtain access to something they had free access to before.


colonelguppy
animals are very territorial, they have developedseveral ways of telling each other what areas belongs to them.

That's because it's part of some animals instincts to be territorial; however, once again, there's no concrete evidence to support that humans are naturally (i.e. biologically or genetically) predisposed to being territorial.

[colonelguppy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 11:27 am
That's because it's part of some animals instincts to be territorial; however, once again, there's no concrete evidence to support that humans are naturally (i.e. biologically or genetically) predisposed to being territorial.
besides the fact that we do it all the time?

i pretty much agree with you, i just think it's odd that it happens so much with so many people.

[JazzRemington]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 04:42 pm
i pretty much agree with you, i just think it's odd that it happens so much with so many people.
It does happen, but the fact that something happens (however frequently) does not mean that it's genetic, biological, or natural. There is no gene or part of one's biological that drives people toward obtaining property. Such behavior is learned.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 12:08 am
Do wild animals and other organisms have ownership concepts or instincts like humans do over land, natural resources, knowledge and the earth?


All the time: (http://www.wolf.org/wolves/learn/basic/glossary.asp)

Territory - An area occupied by a pack of wolves that can provide sufficient prey to support the pack. It is defended against wolves from outside of the pack and from other animals that might compete for the same resources. Wolves protect their territory by scent-marking, vocal communication and fighting.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by JazzRemington+February 14, 2007 11:04 pm--> (JazzRemington @ February 14, 2007 11:04 pm)
[email protected] 14, 2007 04:42 pm
i pretty much agree with you, i just think it's odd that it happens so much with so many people.
It does happen, but the fact that something happens (however frequently) does not mean that it's genetic, biological, or natural. There is no gene or part of one's biological that drives people toward obtaining property. Such behavior is learned. [/b]
Why do animals do it?

[JazzRemington]

Originally posted by t_wolves_fan+February 14, 2007 06:36 pm--> (t_wolves_fan @ February 14, 2007 06:36 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 11:04 pm

[email protected] 14, 2007 04:42 pm
i pretty much agree with you, i just think it's odd that it happens so much with so many people.
It does happen, but the fact that something happens (however frequently) does not mean that it's genetic, biological, or natural. There is no gene or part of one's biological that drives people toward obtaining property. Such behavior is learned.
Why do animals do it? [/b]
It's mostly instinct, I believe. Since they don't have the higher brain functions humans have, we have to assume that certain species of animals are territorial because of instinct; of course there may be some other reason they do this, but with the lack of those functions that humans possess, the reasons would be pretty slim.

[colorlessman]

I posted some good replies yesterday, but they are all gone because of the server update, backup or something. Totally sucks.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 06:14 am
I posted some good replies yesterday, but they are all gone because of the server update, backup or something. Totally sucks.
Do you want to re-write them?