School Uniforms

[Coggeh]

I personally are against uniforms in general but not when concerning the school.

Your thoughts?



-Cogz

[which doctor]

Of course I'm against them.

I can't imagine any logical reason why anyone would want them.

[Coggeh]

Because in a capitalist society their are working class and upper class in schools , the uniforms create a classless enviorment , one would not have to worry about not having as good as clothes as the other .I don't see any reason why they shouldnt be uniforms in school besides the fact that you just don't like them ....

[Sir_No_Sir]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 08:37 pm
Because in a capitalist society their are working class and upper class in schools , the uniforms create a classless enviorment , one would not have to worry about not having as good as clothes as the other .I don't see any reason why they shouldnt be uniforms in school besides the fact that you just don't like them ....
You can be classless and not the same.

[Coggeh]

But what if one student can't afford good clothes because of the fraud that is capitalism , what happens then ? ...

[Question everything]

I got a school uniform, but it doesn't matter we know who is rich and who is poor... it's just a way for them to control you... I think...

[Coggeh]

Think outside the box , how is making the classroom classless a way of controlling you ?

[Fawkes]

I once had to write a really long essay on this same topic. I am definitely against mandatory uniforms in public schools. I'm assuming that you are talking about elementary school and high schools. Students at elementary and high schools are still in their developmental stages, and thus are very subject to change from outside sources. In other words, they are easily molded. Compare these twp scenarios: a boy grows up in a very right-wing, conservative, fundamentalist family where he is taught that homosexuality is an abomination and is not a good thing. Now, there is another boy who grew up in a relatively liberal family where he was taught to respect all people and their right to love anyone they please. Tell me know, which kid is more likely to be homophobic at an older age? Chances are, the one that grew up in the conservative family will be.

Now, think about a kid that grew up going to a school where everybody is required to dress the same and put him next to someone who grew up going to a school where everybody could dress however they chose to. Which kid do you think is more likely to grow up to think that all people should look the same?

By placing kids in an environment where everybody is supposed to dress and look the same, that will have an effect on the kid when s/he grows up and they are more likely going to believe that everybody should look the same than they would be if they grew up in an environment where everybody did not have to dress a certain way.

School is supposed to prepare kids for the real world when they are older, and I can not think of a better way to shield them from what the real world is than to make them think that everybody looks and dresses the same way.

[TC]

State schools in capitalist states shouldn't compel people to dress a certain way because it infringes on their freedom of personal expression and identity.


I would however support kids wearing Red Guard uniforms to school while demanding governance over the school by the student body.

[Rollo]

I am completely for school uniforms. I went to a school that had no uniform for a year and there was a small group of kids who would constantly pick at everybodys clothing and also often teased an eight year old boy that came from a poor family.

[anarchista feminista]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 09:29 am
I am completely for school uniforms. I went to a school that had no uniform for a year and there was a small group of kids who would constantly pick at everybodys clothing and also often teased an eight year old boy that came from a poor family.
yes, agreed. especially in pubic schools. it kinda sucks though coming from an all girls catholic school they are fairly strict on uniform and there&#39;s no room for individuality. including the colour of hairbands... <_<

[cb9's_unity]

The uniform theory in it&#39;s very essance is not too bad but my problem is that every school i know that has uniforms takes it a step too far. Boys can not have long hair and any bit of individuality is taken from them, in the case of things like hair style it reaches beyond the boundries of school and affects a student no matter where they may be. I also have a problem with girls being forced to where skirts in some uniform schools.

Also no matter what class and money is going to be a factor in a capitalist societies school. Because though there cloths are the same the rich kid will still show off his brand new mustang and maby even more if he can&#39;t brag about what he is wearing.

[Sir_No_Sir]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 09:38 pm
Think outside the box , how is making the classroom classless a way of controlling you ?
There is no class division within a student body, the teacher is the exploiter in the classroom setting.

[TC]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 11:29 pm
I am completely for school uniforms. I went to a school that had no uniform for a year and there was a small group of kids who would constantly pick at everybodys clothing and also often teased an eight year old boy that came from a poor family.
So what?

I&#39;m sorry but the solution to people teasing each other for their clothing is not to take away their civil liberties and make them all dress the same way.

That would be like suggesting that students ought to come to school in face veils so they don&#39;t tease each other for how they look&#33;

When social equals with no power over each other pick on each other they need to work it out amongst themselves or choose to simply not associate with each other. I&#39;m sorry but the "popular crowed" are not obligated to play with kids who just aren&#39;t cool, thats their right and people in actual positions of power like teachers and parents shouldn&#39;t try to take that right of free association away from them either.

[welshred]

Yep uniforms are a good idea, the richer kids always make fun of others who have clothes which arent the same standard.

[Fawkes]

Saving a kid from some ridicule does not outweigh the bad parts of having school uniforms.

[Coggeh]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 10:57 pm
I once had to write a really long essay on this same topic. I am definitely against mandatory uniforms in public schools. I&#39;m assuming that you are talking about elementary school and high schools. Students at elementary and high schools are still in their developmental stages, and thus are very subject to change from outside sources. In other words, they are easily molded. Compare these twp scenarios: a boy grows up in a very right-wing, conservative, fundamentalist family where he is taught that homosexuality is an abomination and is not a good thing. Now, there is another boy who grew up in a relatively liberal family where he was taught to respect all people and their right to love anyone they please. Tell me know, which kid is more likely to be homophobic at an older age? Chances are, the one that grew up in the conservative family will be.

Now, think about a kid that grew up going to a school where everybody is required to dress the same and put him next to someone who grew up going to a school where everybody could dress however they chose to. Which kid do you think is more likely to grow up to think that all people should look the same?

By placing kids in an environment where everybody is supposed to dress and look the same, that will have an effect on the kid when s/he grows up and they are more likely going to believe that everybody should look the same than they would be if they grew up in an environment where everybody did not have to dress a certain way.

School is supposed to prepare kids for the real world when they are older, and I can not think of a better way to shield them from what the real world is than to make them think that everybody looks and dresses the same way.
You really do think kids are lab rats don&#39;t you ?

Think about it , who or what stops him from dressing as he wants OUTSIDE of school ?

If you personnel expression makes another student feel like crap and ashamed of going to school then that should be taken away. No one says kids are supposed to look the same they don&#39;t make you all dye your hair the same colour or wear eye contacts that make your pupils all blue Its not some big capitalist conspiracy its school .You are allowed question everything your thought (e.g history) in my experience anyway .

School is supposed to prepare you for the real world .... What happens when you get a job and they want you to wear work clothes are you going to say "no they don&#39;t represent my personnel freedom " ?

[Fawkes]

You really do think kids are lab rats don&#39;t you ?
There is no denying that what people experience when they are young has a profound effect on their entire lives.


Think about it , who or what stops him from dressing as he wants OUTSIDE of school ?
For the most part nobody, but kids spend huge amounts of their time at school.


If you personnel expression makes another student feel like crap and ashamed of going to school then that should be taken away.
TC did a good job at explaining why this should not be the case.



No one says kids are supposed to look the same they don&#39;t make you all dye your hair the same colour or wear eye contacts that make your pupils all blue Its not some big capitalist conspiracy its school
They make you all dress the same and, usually, make you wear your hair a certain way.


You are allowed question everything your thought (e.g history) in my experience anyway .
Actually, often times you are not, and if you try to, the teacher just won&#39;t allow you to speak.



School is supposed to prepare you for the real world .... What happens when you get a job and they want you to wear work clothes are you going to say "no they don&#39;t represent my personnel freedom " ?
What happens when you&#39;ve spent your entire life thinking everybody should dress the same way and than you walk down the street and, "shit, everybody looks different, what is this abomination".

[Coggeh]

What happens when you&#39;ve spent your entire life thinking everybody should dress the same way and than you walk down the street and, "shit, everybody looks different, what is this abomination".



Oh like someone isn&#39;t going to walk down the street for the first time in theirs live until their 20 :rolleyes:

[Fawkes]

I was exaggerating.

[Coggeh]

lol sure you were....now ill go back to what ever it is i do .........

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 05:10 pm
lol sure you were....now ill go back to what ever it is i do .........
How about you respond to my post.

[An archist]

the idea that school unifroms would erase social differences between students is bollocks, most schools where uniforms are mandatory ask students to buy the clothes themselves, so the rich kids buy a sweater from, say lacoste, while the poor kid buys one from the second hand shop.
They&#39;re both wearing the mandatory uniform, but the difference is visible to almost every student in the school.

[Coggeh]

Nothing stops you from expressing yourself outside of school.And no schools don&#39;t make you wear your hair in a certain way, i know lots of crazy long haired people in my school .

Well saying they don&#39;t take your question , then who or what stops you from having your opinion or stating it in an essay , a speech or before or after class .

[Fawkes]

I went to a school where we had to wear uniforms and yes, they did make us wear our hair a certain way. Nothing stops you from expressing yourself out of school, but why shouldn&#39;t you be able to do so in school?

Nothing stops you from having an opinion, but you&#39;re generally not allowed to voice it in schools if it is to radical.

Also, this should definitely be moved out of DIY.

[Sir_No_Sir]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 10:24 pm
Nothing stops you from expressing yourself outside of school.
Do you live on Earth?


Well saying they don&#39;t take your question , then who or what stops you from having your opinion or stating it in an essay , a speech or before or after class .


What makes people hear you?

[Coggeh]

Its not your choice whether they hear you or not ...its theirs .

[Sir_No_Sir]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 10:46 pm
Its not your choice whether they hear you or not ...its theirs .
Doesnt everyone get a shot at being heard? In the classroom this would happen.

[Coggeh]

And what stops it from not happening ? as part of English classes you get your chance when you have to read out an essay you wrote.

[Comrade_Scott]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 01:44 pm
Saving a kid from some ridicule does not outweigh the bad parts of having school uniforms.
look at it this way i wear my new air force and g-unit to school, and someone sees them and likes it so he takes it upon himself to rob me.... thats why i am for uniforms that and the ridiculing

[apathy maybe]

I can absolutely see the argument for having a basic school uniform (not a fucked up really strict one like has been mentioned, the colour of the fucking hair band and the length of hair is just stupid).

There are a few different arguments. From the teachers or schools position, it makes it shit easier to tell who is a student and who isn&#39;t. It also helps to distinguish between children from different schools (assuming they have different uniforms ...).

From a kids position, it means that they don&#39;t have to worry about what to wear. You might not care about a kid being teased, but I&#39;m guessing you didn&#39;t have to put up with it. It means that the children do look similar enough that they aren&#39;t going to get teased over what they are wearing.

Assuming that there isn&#39;t some fucked up rule about hair length or hat colour or hair band colour, there is also room for individuality.


That said, I don&#39;t actually support these arguments (except for the kid getting teased argument). In fact, in a decent learning environment, the teachers would rapidly put a stop to any teasing (or other bullying) that was going on.

So no, I don&#39;t support school uniforms. I support learning environments where children are safe and can feel safe, but not where they are forced to think the same or look alike.

[Mujer Libre]

School uniforms are just another way of controlling kids&#39; individuality, along with rules about hair and jewellery or the way they&#39;re taught to regurgitate the curriculum. Yuck.

On the argument that uniforms create a &#39;classless&#39; environment- bullshit. The poorer kids will still have second hand uniforms, or less jewellery or fewer toys and gadgets (like mobile phones, mp3 players or whatever). So having uniforms is attempting (poorly) to replace one problem by creating another. No thanks.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by ML
So having uniforms is attempting (poorly) to replace one problem by creating another. No thanks.

Precisely.

The problem is of course capitalism, it is incredibly naive to assume its possible to mask class differences simply by forcing children to wear the same clothes at school.

[Hiero]

I didn&#39;t mind wearing a uniform. I went to a public school that had a basic uniform. I just had to wear the correct colours and either a polo or button up shirt. For about 12 years I got by with my school uniform and 2 extra sets of cloths. Aslo at my school you could have you hair anyway you wanted, I had natural dreas in year 10 and all I got was dirty looks.

Fawkes claim&#39;s are exaggerated.

[Fawkes]

No, I&#39;m not at all exaggerating. In elementary school, we had to wear a button up shirt and a tie that had to come from a certain maker. Also, boys were not allowed to have their hair go below their collar.

[Hamster]

I am glad, that I didn&#39;t have to wear uniforms at high school. Although I wore cheap clothes, I have no experiences with bullying because of my dress (Actually, I was sometimes teasing people with fancy expensive clothes, but I was a kid... :blush: (Just a little...)). When some bastards want to bully someone, they find their reason. They don&#39;t need price of clothes (It&#39;s a good one though). I had only several minor problems with (old) teachers, but I wasn&#39;t only punk at school and no one really cared about it...

I&#39;m against. I see no real reason for uniforms.

TragicClown: Red Guard uniforms?? WTF?? :lol:

[Coggeh]

Originally posted by black rose+February 15, 2007 05:06 am--> (black rose &#064; February 15, 2007 05:06 am)
ML
So having uniforms is attempting (poorly) to replace one problem by creating another. No thanks.

Precisely.

The problem is of course capitalism, it is incredibly naive to assume its possible to mask class differences simply by forcing children to wear the same clothes at school. [/b]
I agree ;) . If you do want to put a stop to uniforms and not have the ridiculing of kids , best way to do it is to get out their and spread the word of socialism , only in a non capitalist society could you go to school wearing your own clothes (having only the plus&#39;s of no uniforms and none of the negatives e.g kids being picked on)

I still make the point as long as were living in a capitalists enviorment we should stick with uniforms in schools ,they may not mask them completely but they create the illusion of classlessness in schools . :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: < (illusion) :) see lol

[Question everything]

Thank you, every body in my school knows who is rich and who is poor... uniforms don&#39;t help, I still say it is just another way to control...

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by coggy+--> (coggy)
I still make the point as long as were living in a capitalists enviorment we should stick with uniforms in schools ,they may not mask them completely but they create the illusion of classlessness in schools .[/b]

Like i mujer libre and i said before, it is foolish to think that in a capitalist society it is possible to mask class differences; or that &#39;hiding&#39; classes is desireable:


ML
On the argument that uniforms create a &#39;classless&#39; environment- bullshit. The poorer kids will still have second hand uniforms, or less jewellery or fewer toys and gadgets (like mobile phones, mp3 players or whatever). So having uniforms is attempting (poorly) to replace one problem by creating another. No thank

[Hiero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 08:46 am
No, I&#39;m not at all exaggerating. In elementary school, we had to wear a button up shirt and a tie that had to come from a certain maker. Also, boys were not allowed to have their hair go below their collar.
You are exaggerating the consequences of uniforms.

[Fawkes]

How so? I don&#39;t see how it&#39;s any different than the growing up in a fundie family example that I provided earlier.

[Coggeh]

Originally posted by black rose+February 17, 2007 02:47 am--> (black rose @ February 17, 2007 02:47 am)
Originally posted by [email protected]

I still make the point as long as were living in a capitalists enviorment we should stick with uniforms in schools ,they may not mask them completely but they create the illusion of classlessness in schools .

Like i mujer libre and i said before, it is foolish to think that in a capitalist society it is possible to mask class differences; or that &#39;hiding&#39; classes is desireable:


ML
On the argument that uniforms create a &#39;classless&#39; environment- bullshit. The poorer kids will still have second hand uniforms, or less jewellery or fewer toys and gadgets (like mobile phones, mp3 players or whatever). So having uniforms is attempting (poorly) to replace one problem by creating another. No thank [/b]
In my experience you cant tell who&#39;s rich or poor , just because you have jewelery doesn&#39;t mean your rich :blink: and just because you have none doesn&#39;t mean your poor ,also the people could be working jobs themselves and be able to pay for mp3&#39;s and phones ... doesn&#39;t mean their rich , a person could have none because of strict parents , doesn&#39;t mean their poor. so you can&#39;t judge by jewelery or "gadgets" by whos rich or not . The only way i see is by clothes or shoes .... Therfore uniforms are good at creating the illusion of classlessness .

And just because someone grows wearing uniforms doesn&#39;t mean he&#39;s gonna become a complete right wing fascist nut , now does it ?

In capitalism it is hard to mask classlessness if not impossible but thats why everyone should be active in changing the system , if you don&#39;t like uniforms then do something about (not in your school) but out in the streets trying to change the system itself . And once we&#39;ve toppled the capitalist bourgeois goverment and replace it which a workers state .... you will have no uniforms :)

[Sir_No_Sir]

Classlessness is not conformity

[Fawkes]

And just because someone grows wearing uniforms doesn&#39;t mean he&#39;s gonna become a complete right wing fascist nut , now does it ?
Well, obviously not. But, they&#39;d be more likely to, like I said, feel as if people should dress similar to each other than if they did not wear uniforms as children.

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2007 11:58 am
Classlessness is not conformity
Quoted for truth.

[Coggeh]

You mean like , if they were grown up with uniforms , that they&#39;d be a bit obsessed with the latest styles and stuff ? ....

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2007 12:02 pm
You mean like , if they were grown up with uniforms , that they&#39;d be a bit obsessed with the latest styles and stuff ? ....
What? No, I mean, if they grow up with uniforms, they would be more likely to feel as if everybody should dress similar than if they did not grow up with uniforms, which I have stated about ten times already.

[Coggeh]

Surely a price to pay for a sense of classlessness lol , don&#39;t like it ? take my advice from my 2nd last post .

[Fawkes]

No, not a price to pay for a sense of "classlessness". Your second to last post made no sense whatsoever.

[Coggeh]

The one before it lol ... (sorry .. should have specified there should i )

[Fawkes]

Well, in response to that post, no, conformity is not an appropriate price to pay for a false sense of "classlessness".

Also, why the hell is this in DIY? It should be moved to Learning or Discrimination.

[TC]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2007 05:29 pm
Well, in response to that post, no, conformity is not an appropriate price to pay for a false sense of "classlessness".

Also, why the hell is this in DIY? It should be moved to Learning or Discrimination.
you&#39;re right, moved.

[YSR]

Shouldn&#39;t we, as class conscious proletarians, be encouraging an environment without a fake "classlessness"? We should be encouraging proletarian children to understand their role in society and begin finding ways to resist it.

Plus, as has been said ten million times, uniforms limit personal freedom, which is bullshit.

[here for the revolution]

school uniform steals your uniqueness, it is similar to the way in which hitler made all Jews be given the same names at one point in WW2, it steals your identity and makes you a victim of capitalism, it makes you easier to control and pick on as a group. When I&#39;m in my school uniform rival schools can tell where im from, they can gang up easily with people from their own school and then surround a smaller group of rival schoolkids. school uniform is stupid, and is a measure which capitalist schools employ to subdue us, it is not right. if there are other kids who cannot afford clothes then thats a flaw of capitalism, and showing this combats capitalism, allowing yourself to be subdued like a flock of sheep is wrong, not uniqueness

[Prairie Fire]

All of the arguments against school uniforms up to this point have not been really worth mentioning, as everyone of these persyns cites examples from their own
CAPITALIST schools. I wou d be interested to hear some testaments from Schools in the USSR, China, Cuba, Albania, North Korea, or any other socialist state before I would condemn the idea of uniforms.

Fawkes

Now, think about a kid that grew up going to a school where everybody is required to dress the same and put him next to someone who grew up going to a school where everybody could dress however they chose to. Which kid do you think is more likely to grow up to think that all people should look the same?

:lol: Fawkes puts forward the line that school uniforms create/propagate xenophobia. It is interesting that he didn&#39;t say "...likely to grow up to think all people should DRESS the same" he said "...LOOK the same", possibly implying that school uniforms would propagate racism. This is fucking ridiculous. If anything, it would help eliminate racial tensions, as children of different colours and ethnicitys, despite possible economic inequalities, would see that they are all the same.


Fawkes also talks a lot about how students at his school had to cut their hair as part of a school dresscode. Now me, I have long fucking hair, so thats a subject close to my heart as well, but a school uniform doesn&#39;t imply haircuting, so this is irrelevant and specific to your school.We are discussing the concept of a school uniform in general.

An Archist

the idea that school unifroms would erase social differences between students is bollocks, most schools where uniforms are mandatory ask students to buy the clothes themselves, so the rich kids buy a sweater from, say lacoste, while the poor kid buys one from the second hand shop.
They&#39;re both wearing the mandatory uniform, but the difference is visible to almost every student in the school.

I&#39;m sorry, I was under the impression that this was a socialist forum. :rolleyes: I thought we were discussiong the merits of school uniforms under socialism, not under this rotten capitalist system. Under socialism, doesn&#39;t it stand to reason that the state/society would provide the uniforms to all students, all of equal quality?

Most of the arguments against school uniforms are, unfortunately, not only citing currect capitalist examples, but are based on the idea that it compromises individuality.

First of all, as coggy allready pointed out, we are talking about SCHOOL uniforms.
Students would still be able to wear a kilt, a shower cap and bunny slippers outside of school if they wanted to, just that they would have to wear a uniform for
like 7 hours a day, 5 days a week (or so.).

Second of all, must EVERYTHING take a backseat to the persynal whims of an individual? Must every single persyn be euphoric about what they are doing at all times? Sheesh, I thought we were socialists here&#33; I thought we were building a society based on the MASSES, based on the good of the MANY, not on the selfish fucking hedonisitic whims of the few. If school uniforms can help to eliminate contradictions among the people, and put thousands of kids in a better position, who gives a shit if a couple of little Emo Fucks don&#39;t want to wear uniforms?


I&#39;m basing my poin tof view on practicality. While you can&#39;t really take examples from schools with uniforms under capitalism, you can get a lot of insight from schools that don&#39;t have them. Forgive the anecdote, but when my dad was a kid, him and his sisters were poorer then the rest of the class, and their clothes showed it. The got tormented for it, and the teacher did nothing to discourage it
(in fact, she would take them in front of the class, and inspect them for lice.).
More recently, when I was in elementary school, there were kids who had shabbier clothes than every the other students , and they were targeted for it, by both teachers and students. Maybe it has a lot to do with society, but in the school any sort of class contradictions are amplified. If everyone has the same clothing,
same quality, it puts everyone on an even playing field. There may be other things for kids to get picked on for, but it eliminates one of them.

Besides, what you wear doesn&#39;t determine your inividuality. In fact, in my experience, those that dress the most outrageous, especially emo bastards, are the biggest conformists of all :lol: .

[Demogorgon]

I remember when i was at school they had to tighten uniform rules for the younger kids because the well off ones with all thest stuff were bullying those who couldn&#39;t afford the latest fashions.

In the ideal world there would be no need for them, but I&#39;ll tell you this, the uniforms did put a stop to that bullying.

[stu_t]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2007 11:49 pm
I remember when i was at school they had to tighten uniform rules for the younger kids because the well off ones with all thest stuff were bullying those who couldn&#39;t afford the latest fashions.
If school uniforms are to help the les affluent kids then why are they so bloody expensive?

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by stu_t+February 18, 2007 11:58 pm--> (stu_t @ February 18, 2007 11:58 pm)
[email protected] 18, 2007 11:49 pm
I remember when i was at school they had to tighten uniform rules for the younger kids because the well off ones with all thest stuff were bullying those who couldn&#39;t afford the latest fashions.
If school uniforms are to help the les affluent kids then why are they so bloody expensive? [/b]
Well there is a problem. Though here in Scotland school uniforms are usually the cheapest clothes you can get for kids

[apathy maybe]

OK, this is just a quick comment to RavenBlade&#39;s rant.

The arguments against uniforms apply equally in capitalist and "socialist" countries. They remove individuality and freedom.

In capitalist countries they do nothing to prevent teasing based on the level of income of the parents (speaking from my own experience in high school). Besides which kids will always find something to tease about.

And to repeat what I have already said, in a decent school, the teachers will stop teasing and other bullying. Children have a right to be safe and to feel safe, that is one of the jobs of a teacher in a school. If kids are getting teased and nothing is being done, then move them to a different fucking school (or teach them how to fight back and/or ignore, both also work).

[Patridiot]

I remember when i was at school they had to tighten uniform rules for the younger kids because the well off ones with all thest stuff were bullying those who couldn&#39;t afford the latest fashions. In the ideal world there would be no need for them, but I&#39;ll tell you this, the uniforms did put a stop to that bullying.
That&#39;s not an argument for school uniforms, but an anti-bullying argument. Of course I am against bullying and other kinds of oppression. But I&#39;m also against collective punishment, which the introducing of school uniforms are if they are introduced in a anti-bullying purpose. Bullying should be obstracted against the oppressors/bullies, not against the inoccent or the victims by forbidding things that people can be bullyed for. With your argument, wouldnt you also wanna forbid different kinds of appearences, tastes, opinions and personalities? Since all those attributes are things that people are getting bullyed for.

[Hiero]

Originally posted by Fawkes+February 19, 2007 04:08 am--> (Fawkes @ February 19, 2007 04:08 am)
[email protected] 18, 2007 12:02 pm
You mean like , if they were grown up with uniforms , that they&#39;d be a bit obsessed with the latest styles and stuff ? ....
What? No, I mean, if they grow up with uniforms, they would be more likely to feel as if everybody should dress similar than if they did not grow up with uniforms, [/b]
This does not happen. In Australia there is a dominant culture which through social pressure forces some norm in clothing in different situations. For instance it is ok to where just shorts and thongs for at the beach, though in the CBD there is pressure to wear a shirt and in some restuarants the closed shoes are required. Wearing a uniform at school does not control these social pressures. Fasion control has been around probally before school uniforms.

It could be possible that if ALL schools enforced a hard uniform policy that it will effect latter fashion. Not all schools enforce such uniform policy. Interaction in the wider world thoose who wear the strict uniforms wear different styled cloths within the common fasion, after they finish school and while they are in their school years.


which I have stated about ten times already.

And? We understand what your saying, however this has not materialised in the real world.

[Everyday Anarchy]

Originally posted by Coggy+--> (Coggy)In my experience you cant tell who&#39;s rich or poor , just because you have jewelery doesn&#39;t mean your rich and just because you have none doesn&#39;t mean your poor ,also the people could be working jobs themselves and be able to pay for mp3&#39;s and phones ... doesn&#39;t mean their rich , a person could have none because of strict parents , doesn&#39;t mean their poor. so you can&#39;t judge by jewelery or "gadgets" by whos rich or not . The only way i see is by clothes or shoes .... Therfore uniforms are good at creating the illusion of classlessness .[/b]How are clothes or shoes any different from everything you explained in that post? Maybe they are working jobs themselves to be able to pay for clothes and shoes... doesn&#39;t mean they&#39;re rich. Maybe they don&#39;t have nice clothes or shoes because of strict parents, doesn&#39;t mean they&#39;re poor.
So using your very own argument, we can conclude that uniforms don&#39;t mask classes because clothes or shoes don&#39;t show class in the first place.

Now obviously, I don&#39;t believe that clothes or shoes honestly don&#39;t denote a child&#39;s class. But I also think it&#39;s extremely naive to say that having the latest mp3 players, cell phones, cars, or any other possessions don&#39;t show if someone is rich or poor.




Comrade_Scott
look at it this way i wear my new air force and g-unit to school, and someone sees them and likes it so he takes it upon himself to rob me.... thats why i am for uniforms that and the ridiculingThis is a stupid argument. I hope it&#39;s obvious as to why. So because one person may rob you, it&#39;s only right to strip everybody of their individuality? People get their shoes stolen all the time outside of school as well. Would you support national uniforms?

[Fawkes]

Fawkes puts forward the line that school uniforms create/propagate xenophobia. It is interesting that he didn&#39;t say "...likely to grow up to think all people should DRESS the same" he said "...LOOK the same", possibly implying that school uniforms would propagate racism. This is fucking ridiculous. If anything, it would help eliminate racial tensions, as children of different colours and ethnicitys, despite possible economic inequalities, would see that they are all the same.
Oh god, I had a typo and used the wrong word....


Fawkes also talks a lot about how students at his school had to cut their hair as part of a school dresscode. Now me, I have long fucking hair, so thats a subject close to my heart as well, but a school uniform doesn&#39;t imply haircuting, so this is irrelevant and specific to your school.We are discussing the concept of a school uniform in general.
If you minus the part about haircutting from my argument, it still doesn&#39;t change.



This does not happen. In Australia there is a dominant culture which through social pressure forces some norm in clothing in different situations. For instance it is ok to where just shorts and thongs for at the beach, though in the CBD there is pressure to wear a shirt and in some restuarants the closed shoes are required. Wearing a uniform at school does not control these social pressures. Fasion control has been around probally before school uniforms.
Even though that may be the case, why should we encourage another form of social pressure?

[red_orchestra]

If we are trying to abolish the class system - in theory at least uniforms are a way to do this. It levels the playing field so to speak. I have no problems with uniforms...

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 09:04 pm
If we are trying to abolish the class system - in theory at least uniforms are a way to do this. It levels the playing field so to speak. I have no problems with uniforms...
As someone else said before me, classlessness is not conformity. We should not try to create a false illusion of classlessness which doesn&#39;t work anyway, we should create the real thing.

[red_orchestra]

Conformity to a social norm is not necessarily a bad thing - but it can be sometimes. Using uniforms to flatten out the division between rich and poor is a temporary measure within a group has been seen to create a positive atmosphere in schools. It works in North Korea, Cuba, Myanmar, China....Laos... shall I continue...

Classless societies take time to create, and will require revolution.

[Fawkes]

But, like many people before me have stated, uniforms don&#39;t create a classless environment in schools. If you want reasons why, just scroll up.

[Everyday Anarchy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 08:33 pm
It works in North Korea, Cuba, Myanmar, China....Laos... shall I continue...
Yes, please do continue. I&#39;d love to hear some of the other shitholes* you&#39;re basing your argument on.


*EDIT:
I don&#39;t mean this in a nationally superior way, but rather as a description of the politics, society, and wellbeing of those nations, Cuba and possibly China being exceptions.

[Fawkes]

Actually, could you provide a source stating if those aforementioned nations use mandatory school uniforms? I&#39;m just curious.

[Kami]

I went to school in Britain. I managed to get into a private school on a scholarship, and had to wear a hideous maroon school uniform (blazer, shirt and tie).

However, I lived on a council estate in the shit end of town, while most lived in quite nice areas of the nearby city.

Personally, I was quite glad for this. I grew quickly, and my uniform (provided out of the school&#39;s thrift shop) was pretty much all the clothes I had at the time not from a charity shop.

However, I don&#39;t support them. Some of those days I was there I sweated bucketloads, and we weren&#39;t allowed to even take of our ties. Not only that, but even though my clothes weren&#39;t that good, I&#39;d like to have been able to express myself more easily in such a way. I&#39;m not good at talking to people, so appearance counted for more with me.

[Knight of Cydonia]

most of student of Indonesian schools are wearing a uniform..all of indonesian schools actually.and the cost is too damn expensive :mellow:

[phoenixoftime]

School uniforms are a good idea in principle, but they are often misused by the powers that be. A lot of people have brought up the conformist argument, but personally I find it pretty shallow if the only way you can show your individuality is through your clothing. Sure, I still like to choose the clothes I wear, but I&#39;m far more worried about the things I do not the things I have.

Uniforms are demanded by communities for reasons other than a superficial attempt at classlessness. They are liked by some because it provides an easy way to identify a person as a &#39;minor&#39; - particularly with teenagers the negative image in which they are often portrayed can then lead to discrimination. When it comes to rich private schools, they are viewed as a symbol of their heightened status in the community.

Then you have the problem that uniforms tend to be private property and unsubsidised. If you&#39;re a poor, single mother struggling to keep dinner on the table, chances are your kids will have less shirts than the stock broker&#39;s children down the road. Hence the uniform of the poor kid gets creased, smelly and dirty quicker than the rich one.

IMO, if school uniforms & dress regulations are going to be effective, they should be: Designed / written with democratic consultations of the student population, and any policies enforced by students themselves. Preferably they should be issued on loan by a central Uniform Store in equal quantities to each student, or if sold, subsidised for low income families. They also should be practical and modern, not designed by someone living seventy years ago.

[Fawkes]

School uniforms are a good idea in principle, but they are often misused by the powers that be. A lot of people have brought up the conformist argument, but personally I find it pretty shallow if the only way you can show your individuality is through your clothing.
It&#39;s not the only way that people show their individuality, but it is definitely one of the main ways. Though I still don&#39;t agree with it, you made a good post.

[Luís Henrique]

In an ideal world, I should be able to go to a burial naked, wearing two different tennis shoes and a red tie. Or to the beach dressed in a tuxedo. And people wouldn&#39;t bat an eye.

In an ideal world, people would "express their individuality" by writing, speaking, singing, playing an instrument, drawing, painting, sculpting, acting, making movies. And, yes, even cooking or... dressing. But anyone should see the difference in importance between writing a book or an essay, and dressing whatever (quite certainly mass-manufactured) clothes.

In an ideal world, people wouldn&#39;t confuse "expressing their individuality", with expressing their belonging to social groups like social classes or those "tribes" such as punks, emos, plocks, nerds, hippies, yuppies, preppies or whatever.

In this very real world, in which people don&#39;t go to places without dressing the conventional "appropriate" attire (and cause scandal when they do), in which people are not able to express their individuality in meaningful ways (and so have to pretend they are "expressing individuality" by dressing mass-made clothes, sometimes even displaying commercial propaganda), and in which people believe they are being "individuals" when they dress informal uniforms instead of formal ones...

... in this real world, we should not discuss whether schools should impose uniforms on pupils or not, but demand that students have a say in the making of school codes - including dressing codes.

Luís Henrique

[apathy maybe]

In Tasmania, you can leave school in grade 10 (about age 16). You then have the option to go to years 11 and 12 (most people do).

In the public system, the schools for year 11 and 12 are different for years 7 to 10. There are a number of differences, one the teachers are called by their first name, two there is a lot more freedom regarding subject choices (in fact, if you have the prerequisites you can do anything you want), three there is no school uniform.

What is the difference between year 10 and year 11? I was hardly more mature (I was already pretty mature :P). The difference was a different school attitude. The entire atmosphere was different. The teachers acted as if the students were adults (well to those who deserved it anyway), they did not force the students to do work or turn up to class and so on. Most of the students were there to learn, not because they were forced to be (as with previous years).

The lack of a uniform did nothing for the school, but a uniform would have had a major detrimental affect on the learning environment.

The school was more like a university, open and free, it was a free learning environment, and I enjoyed it more then my previous years.

The school I went to for years 7-10 occasionally had "free clothes day", where you could wear what you wanted. It didn&#39;t lead to a break down in public order, it didn&#39;t lead to an increase in harassment. All it did was allow the students not to have to wear a crappy uniform for one day a term.


So, why can&#39;t all days be a "free clothes day"? It works at the year 11 and 12 level, why not at the year 10 level? Or below?

[RevMARKSman]

Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 22, 2007 07:13 am
In Tasmania, you can leave school in grade 10 (about age 16). You then have the option to go to years 11 and 12 (most people do).

In the public system, the schools for year 11 and 12 are different for years 7 to 10. There are a number of differences, one the teachers are called by their first name, two there is a lot more freedom regarding subject choices (in fact, if you have the prerequisites you can do anything you want), three there is no school uniform.

What is the difference between year 10 and year 11? I was hardly more mature (I was already pretty mature :P). The difference was a different school attitude. The entire atmosphere was different. The teachers acted as if the students were adults (well to those who deserved it anyway), they did not force the students to do work or turn up to class and so on. Most of the students were there to learn, not because they were forced to be (as with previous years).

The lack of a uniform did nothing for the school, but a uniform would have had a major detrimental affect on the learning environment.

The school was more like a university, open and free, it was a free learning environment, and I enjoyed it more then my previous years.

The school I went to for years 7-10 occasionally had "free clothes day", where you could wear what you wanted. It didn&#39;t lead to a break down in public order, it didn&#39;t lead to an increase in harassment. All it did was allow the students not to have to wear a crappy uniform for one day a term.


So, why can&#39;t all days be a "free clothes day"? It works at the year 11 and 12 level, why not at the year 10 level? Or below?
Kind of the same story here. In the catholic elementary school I went to, there were uniforms and "dress-down days" where you had to bring in a quarter to not wear your uniform. Now I go to an alternative school, where the teachers are called by first names and (like the high school) no school uniforms. However you still have to complete a certain number of credits in each subject to graduate.

Again, the removal of uniforms led to a much more student control over expression, behavior, etc. Now everyone can talk about D&D (well, everyone but me) without worrying about whether their shirts are tucked in.

[Fawkes]

Kind of the same story here. In the catholic elementary school I went to, there were uniforms and "dress-down days" where you had to bring in a quarter to not wear your uniform. Now I go to an alternative school, where the teachers are called by first names and (like the high school) no school uniforms. However you still have to complete a certain number of credits in each subject to graduate.
That could&#39;ve been written by me and it would&#39;ve been true.

[Question everything]

I just spent the whole day out of uniform (I messed up and put on a plain shirt) and no one seemed to notice :lol: don&#39;t know what it has to do with anything but I just felt like posting something random

[Ol' Dirty]

I have no idea how I feel about school uniforms

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 05:57 pm
I have no idea how I feel about school uniforms
Productive...........

Read all of this thread and see which side you agree with ;) ;) .

[which doctor]

In a socialist society school uniforms would have even less relevance than in a capitalist society. In a socialist society brand name elitism would not exist because the "brand names" would be free to everyone. There would be no taunting based on economic position.

School uniforms in capitalism are meant to instill obedience and a business (fuck business) like atmosphere in schools. There are trying to make our schools into fucking workplaces&#33; Which they practically already are.

School uniforms in socialism and anarchism would have little or no purpose. Individuality is something that can only contribute to personal learning, which is what schools should be for.

[ScottishSocialist13]

Originally posted by Coggy+February 18, 2007 04:55 pm--> (Coggy @ February 18, 2007 04:55 pm)
Originally posted by black rose+February 17, 2007 02:47 am--> (black rose &#064; February 17, 2007 02:47 am)
[email protected]

I still make the point as long as were living in a capitalists enviorment we should stick with uniforms in schools ,they may not mask them completely but they create the illusion of classlessness in schools .

Like i mujer libre and i said before, it is foolish to think that in a capitalist society it is possible to mask class differences; or that &#39;hiding&#39; classes is desireable:


ML
On the argument that uniforms create a &#39;classless&#39; environment- bullshit. The poorer kids will still have second hand uniforms, or less jewellery or fewer toys and gadgets (like mobile phones, mp3 players or whatever). So having uniforms is attempting (poorly) to replace one problem by creating another. No thank [/b]
In my experience you cant tell who&#39;s rich or poor , just because you have jewelery doesn&#39;t mean your rich :blink: and just because you have none doesn&#39;t mean your poor ,also the people could be working jobs themselves and be able to pay for mp3&#39;s and phones ... doesn&#39;t mean their rich , a person could have none because of strict parents , doesn&#39;t mean their poor. so you can&#39;t judge by jewelery or "gadgets" by whos rich or not . The only way i see is by clothes or shoes .... Therfore uniforms are good at creating the illusion of classlessness .

And just because someone grows wearing uniforms doesn&#39;t mean he&#39;s gonna become a complete right wing fascist nut , now does it ?

In capitalism it is hard to mask classlessness if not impossible but thats why everyone should be active in changing the system , if you don&#39;t like uniforms then do something about (not in your school) but out in the streets trying to change the system itself . And once we&#39;ve toppled the capitalist bourgeois goverment and replace it which a workers state .... you will have no uniforms :) [/b]
I disagree. When your in school, after a few months, you know who is rich and who is poor. Just by knowing what area they live in, what schoolbag they have, who they hang around with.

I&#39;m against uniform.

[Question everything]

Totally Everybody who goes to a school with uniforms would agree, I know who is rich and who is poor, it&#39;s not hard to figure out...

[Janus]

Another example of instilling school discipline by wasting funds that can be used for other purposes.

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 10:26 pm
Another example of instilling school discipline by wasting funds that can be used for other purposes.
Most schools that require uniforms make the students buy them themselves.