Meinhof gang killer to be freed

[boxinghefner]

Meinhof gang killer to be freed. Heard this first on BBC news 24 today.

There’ve been mixed reactions in Germany, with the Greens and the SPD supporting the move. The Union expectedly, but also the police, have criticised it. The Frankfurter Allgemeine is worried about her lack of regret.


A former member of the Baader-Meinhof gang is to be freed on probation after serving 24 years for her involvement in kidnappings and murders in the 1970s.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6352903.stm

reactions / thoughts?

[StartToday]

Well... they had the right idea. If I were in Germany, I wouldn't mind their release at all. Besides, they are old now- I'm sure they aren't much of a threat anyways.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Revolutionaries support the release of all class war prisoners, the RAF comrades included.

[StartToday]

Yeah I don't think what they did was all that bad, really. Except maybe for the fact that it probably turned a lot of people off to anti-capitalism.

[bolshevik butcher]

No doubt they were genuine revolutionaries, the problem with RAF was that it was elitist, in the through urban guerilliaism the RAF cut itself off from the rank and file working class people and so they became an irrelevancy to the wider class struggle in Germany.

[Black Dagger]

Good news, if only more political prisoners were given the same treatment.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by black [email protected] 13, 2007 08:29 am
Good news, if only more political prisoners were given the same treatment.
All prisoners are political, its only ****s who try to separate themselves as "special" prisoners and try to gain special privileges through that designation.

In any case, though I disagree entirely with the RAF's philosophy and tactics, I am glad to see any comrade free from the clutches of the state. Befreit alle gefangenen!!

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by black coffee black [email protected] 14, 2007 02:24 am
All prisoners are political, its only ****s who try to separate themselves as "special" prisoners and try to gain special privileges through that designation.


Even 'white collar' criminals? :P

[bcbm]

Originally posted by black rose+February 13, 2007 10:44 am--> (black rose @ February 13, 2007 10:44 am)
black coffee black [email protected] 14, 2007 02:24 am
All prisoners are political, its only ****s who try to separate themselves as "special" prisoners and try to gain special privileges through that designation.


Even 'white collar' criminals? :P [/b]
Yes. "Society gets all the crime it deserves" as the saying goes, and that crime is no different. Furthermore, the incarceration of any individuals, even bosses, in prison only serves to benefit the state and other bosses who make profit from the slave labor of prisoners, and the use of all sorts of expensive technology to keep them locked up.

[Black Dagger]

I was just winding you up :P

[bcbm]

Originally posted by black [email protected] 13, 2007 11:00 am
I was just winding you up :P
Keep turning my crank, see what happens. ;)

[TC]

Originally posted by black coffee black metal+February 13, 2007 04:24 pm--> (black coffee black metal @ February 13, 2007 04:24 pm)
black [email protected] 13, 2007 08:29 am
Good news, if only more political prisoners were given the same treatment.
All prisoners are political, its only ****s who try to separate themselves as "special" prisoners and try to gain special privileges through that designation. [/b]
I'm sorry but no.

People who are jailed for domestic or sexual violence aren't political prisoners
People who are jailed for defrauding consumers or clients aren't political prisoners
People who are jailed for murder out of anger or personal reasons aren't political
People who are jailed for endangering the public aren't political prisoners
People who are jailed for white collar theft aren't political prisoners


The only people who are political prisoners are people who were either jailed for their political beliefs (i.e. "prisoners of conscious") and people jailed for crimes committed with political intent against the state, ruling class or political figures or parties.

A huge gulf does separate political prisoners from common criminals and your attempts to minimize this only show your own elitism.

That "****" made war on behalf of the international proletariat against the American imperialist outpost of occupied West Germany, willingly sacrificing her life for the communist movement. You sat at home on a computer as an armchair activist proclaiming yourself in a position to judge real revolutionaries. You're the elitist one.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Feeling is mixed in germany, because despite the demonization of RAF by the state, the west german workers kinda liked people who killed investment bankers, judges and polticians.

And to be honest, its not like anyone at Revleft should give a damn, about capitalists or their poltical lackies.

She has been in prision long enough, and Much to her credit, never apologised for the groups missions.

[Phalanx]

Good news, people who kill former nazis (Hanns Schleyer on the list) shouldn't be imprisoned. It's sickening that he was actually set free even though he was in the SS.

I'd like to see if RAF could possibly make a comeback with her release.

[Janus]

This is really a vestige of a bygone era. There's no need to romanticize or take a walk down memory lane, we need to look towards the future at this point.


She has been in prision long enough, and Much to her credit, never apologised for the groups missions.


Originally posted by AP
The court's written decision noted that Mohnhaupt was not willing to completely repudiate her violent past and that she "has not distanced herself from her deeds in the sense of insight into wrongs that were committed."

But the court reported that Mohnhaupt said at her closed parole hearing that the time for "armed struggle" was over and acknowledged inflicting suffering on the victim's families.

German court paroles ex-RAF member (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070212/ap_on_re_eu/germany_red_army_faction;_ylt=AriZygNW5RYfXvo3vcjt dFJ0bBAF)

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

But the court reported that Mohnhaupt said at her closed parole hearing that the time for "armed struggle" was over and acknowledged inflicting suffering on the victim's families.

Alot of people similar to her renounce armed actions, or say the "time for them is over" after they're arrested. Chairman Gonzalo comes to mind.. as well as members of the Weather Underground.

As to the victim's families, do they "acknowledge" the suffering their family members inflicted on the toiling masses?

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 03:39 pm
I'm sorry but no.
Some people should be in prison?



People who are jailed for domestic or sexual violence aren't political prisoners
People who are jailed for defrauding consumers or clients aren't political prisoners
People who are jailed for murder out of anger or personal reasons aren't political
People who are jailed for endangering the public aren't political prisoners
People who are jailed for white collar theft aren't political prisoners

Almost all modern crime is the result of capitalist society. Furthermore, prisoners represent a hyper-exploited and oppressed group within said society, and their imprisonment is only the benefit of the bosses and the state. No one deserves to be in prison and the abolition of prisons is an important part of any attempt to create a more liberated society. Even stuck within the current mess, there is no use for prisons beyond that of greater control of the under-classes and greater profit to the bosses.


The only people who are political prisoners are people who were either jailed for their political beliefs (i.e. "prisoners of conscious") and people jailed for crimes committed with political intent against the state, ruling class or political figures or parties.

By claiming a special status above that of regular prisoners (not elitist? :wacko:) political militants detract from the prisoners' struggle for prison abolition and freedom and subtly imply by their designation that the prison system is, in fact, legitimate and that some individuals deserve to be there. It also detracts from the struggle outside of the prison walls, as allies are bound up in supporting the militants instead of all those captured and enslaved by the state.


A huge gulf does separate political prisoners from common criminals and your attempts to minimize this only show your own elitism.

Maybe you should look up the definition of elitism, as you clearly do not understand the word. The only gulf between them is that the militants may be more aware of the true role of prisons- more reason not to try and draw differences between prisoners.


That "****" made war on behalf of the international proletariat against the American imperialist outpost of occupied West Germany, willingly sacrificing her life for the communist movement.

Yeah and what a bang up job! They killed a few bosses and Nazis, got plenty of committed and courageous comrades killed or imprisoned in the process, strengthened the German state, broke up the quite strong youth movement and sent some comrades in to complete alienation as isolation and the armed mindset (and occasionally anti-semitism) took control of these groups. Hardly anything to brag about.

I admire their courage and they were absolutely right in believing that something had to be done to attack the state. However, the tactics of spectacular armed specialism they adopted had already been proven a total farce and failure in South America and should have never been brought to Europe. The wave of armed actions that swept Europe did nothing to bolster under-class movements or move anyone towards liberation, except perhaps those few who died free, shooting.


You sat at home on a computer as an armchair activist proclaiming yourself in a position to judge real revolutionaries. You're the elitist one.

Oh please, you don't know shit about me or what I do and have done, so don't start throwing about tired, "revolutionary," internet cliches. And I doubt you've been out shooting people and firebombing supermarkets either. I guess we'll see in June?


------


I'd like to see if RAF could possibly make a comeback with her release.

Why in the hell would you like to see something so asinine and utterly stupid?

[Phalanx]

Why in the hell would you like to see something so asinine and utterly stupid?

Why the hell not? A quarter of West German workers agreed with their views (though maybe not their tactics), and they didn't kill indiscriminately. Killing capitalists and former Nazis is a good thing.

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by black coffee black metal+February 13, 2007 04:24 pm--> (black coffee black metal @ February 13, 2007 04:24 pm)
black [email protected] 13, 2007 08:29 am
Good news, if only more political prisoners were given the same treatment.
All prisoners are political [/b]
That's entirely incorrect. The person sent to jail for beating their wife does not deserve the same status as someone imprisoned for revolutionary activity against the State.

It is usually a deliberate psychological attempt on the half of the State when it attempts to "criminalize" prisoners jailed for political activity.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by Tatanka [email protected] 14, 2007 03:50 pm
Why the hell not? A quarter of West German workers agreed with their views (though maybe not their tactics), and they didn't kill indiscriminately. Killing capitalists and former Nazis is a good thing.
Because spectacular armed actions do nothing to move forward the liberation of the under-classes and have time and time again been proven a dismal failure? There is no place for an armed party to lead us in the struggle against the bosses, and such a party actually gets in the way by prioritizing the armed struggle at the exclusion of all other tactics.

---------


That's entirely incorrect. The person sent to jail for beating their wife does not deserve the same status as someone imprisoned for revolutionary activity against the State.

Both are victims of the same system and both suffer the same fate. Designating different "status" for prisoners upholds the illusion that the prison system is necessary or useful when it isn't. We need to support the abolition of prison, not special status.

[TC]

Originally posted by BlackCoffeeBlackMetal
Some people should be in prison?

Absolutely. What are you nuts???

Do you think society should have to tolerate serial rapists, war criminals, child molesters, slave masters, free to prey on them or do you think they should be jailed?

The collective physical defense of the people requires the ability to protect themselves from harm with force if necessary, that includes imprisoning people who pose a real threat to them.


Almost all modern crime is the result of capitalist society.

Perhaps a majority of crime is economically motivated but plenty of crime is genuinely anti-social behavior victimizing individuals and such behavior existed before the state and capitalism.

Moreover plenty of crime that is the result of capitalism is still wrong, a CEO abusing an illigal immigrant housekeeper is i suppose a crime as the result of capitalism as it creates oprotunity but they should still be jailed.


No one deserves to be in prison and the abolition of prisons is an important part of any attempt to create a more liberated society.

Whether or not you think say, George Bush or Jack the Ripper deserve to be in prison, people have the right not to be victimized or abused, and in order to ensure that right they need to be able to protect themselves by removing people who would do so from society.

A murders right to freedom does not outweigh a victims right to live.

The important part in creating a more liberated society is not to abolish prisons but to abolish prison sentinces for laws that only protect capital and introduce laws to protect workers.

[bcbm]

Do you think society should have to tolerate serial rapists, war criminals, child molesters, slave masters, free to prey on them or do you think they should be jailed?

I do not think they should be free to prey or be in prison. The prison system does nothing to "protect" society beyond physically removing them. If anything, it makes many criminals worse before they are released, which is even more dangerous, and in the mean time they are made to be slaves. Support for prison is support for the bosses and the state, we have better solutions.

Judging from the rest of your response, you obviously are not familiar with Prison abolitionism and are obviously misunderstanding what I am saying.

For a brief intro, try

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_abolition_movement

and maybe we can be closer to being on the same page, or at least have a mutual understanding of what is meant by prison abolition.

[black magick hustla]

any one who agrees with this type of "spectacular struggle", carried out by petty bourgeois adventurers is pretty fucking wrong.

the WU and the RAF had it completely wrong, it doesnt works like that. the only thing that they did is to further alienate people from communist theory.

[Phalanx]

Because spectacular armed actions do nothing to move forward the liberation of the under-classes and have time and time again been proven a dismal failure? There is no place for an armed party to lead us in the struggle against the bosses, and such a party actually gets in the way by prioritizing the armed struggle at the exclusion of all other tactics.

I'll admit that the violence that RAF displayed was misplaced, but everyone has a different idea on how the revolution should occur. RAF didn't actually accomplish much but to strike fear in the ruling classes of West Germany. It showed the ruling classes that they could be targeted, and a significant portion of the West German workers would support their actions. The killing of Schleyer put the ruling classes in panic mode, which of course is bad for the proletariat, but it also brought to light that they weren't invincible.

[Fawkes]

I'll admit that the violence that RAF displayed was misplaced, but everyone has a different idea on how the revolution should occur
But I think that most would agree that there needs to be a very large amount of support amongst the working class before violent actions against the state can be taken out.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by TC
Absolutely. What are you nuts???

So you support the prison system? :wacko:

[ComradeR]

While i agree that the current capitalist prison system is majorly messed up, the idea that you can completely abolish imprisonment is ridiculous, as is the idea that crime will disappear after the revolution. While crime will be reduced it's not going to vanish altogether, so some form of imprisonment will have to be put in place after the revolution. I personally believe that those who commit crimes that deserve punishment (such as rape, murder out of anger or personal reasons, domestic violence, molestation of children etc.) should serve their time working to help the society they harmed and being incarcerated when they're not working, in conjunction with rehabilitation and education programs. But from what i can tell those who want the abolition of imprisonment want to replace it with supervised release, probation, restitution to victims, or community work. But this amounts to a slap on the wrist to those who commit the crime and spiting on the face of the victims.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by ComradeR
But from what i can tell those who want the abolition of imprisonment want to replace it with supervised release, probation, restitution to victims, or community work. But this amounts to a slap on the wrist to those who commit the crime and spiting on the face of the victims.

Alternatives to imprisonment amount to a 'slap on the wrist'?!

You sound like a bourgeois politcian :angry:

The type of people who are scornful of non-custodial sentences, i.e. sentences which are focused on healing the community as opposed to simply throwing people into confinement; the kind of people who are always whingeing about how this or that government is being 'soft' on crime, fuckin disgusting.

What does throwing people in jail achieve? There are literally thousands of reports, inquiries and so forth into that show that prisons dont work, so why on earth would they have a place in a liberated society?

Prisons are archaic systems of oppression and must be abolished.

[Hate Is Art]

The idea that you can completely abolish imprisonment is ridiculous, as is the idea that crime will disappear after the revolution

Property is 9/10 of the law. There will be no reason for people to commit crime after the revolution. But obviously there will be a few people who will be born sociopaths and feel the need to hurt people. I think rehabilition and utilising societal benefits of inclusion over alienation will make crime dissapear almost entirely.

[Honggweilo]

Originally posted by black rose+February 15, 2007 02:29 pm--> (black rose @ February 15, 2007 02:29 pm)
ComradeR
But from what i can tell those who want the abolition of imprisonment want to replace it with supervised release, probation, restitution to victims, or community work. But this amounts to a slap on the wrist to those who commit the crime and spiting on the face of the victims.

Alternatives to imprisonment amount to a 'slap on the wrist'?!

You sound like a bourgeois politcian :angry:

The type of people who are scornful of non-custodial sentences, i.e. sentences which are focused on healing the community as opposed to simply throwing people into confinement; the kind of people who are always whingeing about how this or that government is being 'soft' on crime, fuckin disgusting.

What does throwing people in jail achieve? There are literally thousands of reports, inquiries and so forth into that show that prisons dont work, so why on earth would they have a place in a liberated society?

Prisons are archaic systems of oppression and must be abolished. [/b]
Well i am fully agree with your alternative methodes to pure custodian imprisonment, but isnt that a form a convinement aswell. The Netherlands is known for its "liberal" prison system in comparison the i.e the US and it puts alot of work in re-education and curing people to re-entering society. The deathpenalty is abolished and alot of serious crimes usually get 2 to 8 years of imprisonment. Cells are often more like secured hotels (IF you can pay for your room, otherwise its of to jailmating)Its often compansated with a probation very fast (also due to the lack of prisonspace) due to good behavior with and rehabilitation of velonizers. Compensation to the victims is also largely practiced, often payed out of the pockets of the accused. Also prisoners can earn a wage to pay for their housing and food, but in a capitalist society this is an excuse for cheap labour for colaberating companies.


So anyway, probation is called "TBS" here (Availability to the State). This means some heirarchial structure is in place. The same counted for the rehabilitation of criminal velonizers and bourgeois/petit-bourgeois elements in early China.

So if in a "liberated society" with a "horizontal leadership" controlled by "grassroot democracy", How are the alternatives like community services, rehabilitation and supervized releases not "imprisonment"? Its a limitation of ones civic rights in comparison to other non-velonizing citizens? I think its just a radical reform of the prison system instead of an abolishment.

Anyway, please refute to explain

[bcbm]

Originally posted by Tatanka [email protected] 14, 2007 08:55 pm
I'll admit that the violence that RAF displayed was misplaced, but everyone has a different idea on how the revolution should occur.
That is a pretty weak cop-out.


RAF didn't actually accomplish much but to strike fear in the ruling classes of West Germany. It showed the ruling classes that they could be targeted, and a significant portion of the West German workers would support their actions. The killing of Schleyer put the ruling classes in panic mode, which of course is bad for the proletariat, but it also brought to light that they weren't invincible.

Spectacular armed actions may strike a minimal amount of fear into the ruling class for a time, but they ultimately alienate the proletariat, not to mention the armed individuals themselves, and allow the government an easy hand in "restoring order." It is the lower classes who need to be committing the violence en masse, not just supporting the people with guns.


So if in a "liberated society" with a "horizontal leadership" controlled by "grassroot democracy", How are the alternatives like community services, rehabilitation and supervized releases not "imprisonment"? Its a limitation of ones civic rights in comparison to other non-velonizing citizens? I think its just a radical reform of the prison system instead of an abolishment.

Why did you put things in quotes that BR never said? Obviously when you violate someone else's liberty, there will be some action taken against you. The point of prison abolition is to, instead of just locking someone in a cement room, actually try to figure out what happened and why it happened and work on reintegrating them in to a community, without having to put anyone in chains. And if they don't want to do that, then their life will probably become much more difficult.

[The Grey Blur]

Both are victims of the same system and both suffer the same fate. Designating different "status" for prisoners upholds the illusion that the prison system is necessary or useful when it isn't. We need to support the abolition of prison, not special status
You're confusing long term aims with short term demands...

[bolshevik butcher]

It's frankly ridiculous to say that all prisoners are political. Yes crimes are a result of material conditions but that doesn't nescesserally make everyone a political prisoner, nor does it excuse some crinimal acts, eg rape.

To say that every prisoner is a political prisoner flies in the face of those people jailed due to there role in the class struggle. Would you really say that ever prisoner is a political prisoner like these iranian trade unionists?
http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic...entry1292264171 (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=62645&st=0&#entry1292264171)

The Labour movement has a long history of standing in solidarity with political prisoners long may it continue.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by Permanent [email protected] 15, 2007 10:10 am
You're confusing long term aims with short term demands...
Not really. I have no interest in upholding the myth of prison as a useful institution and am not about to agree that some people "just need to be locked away." If the militants in jail are genuine in their politics, they will continue their work with the other prisoners from the inside. That's more useful than getting some special status and immediately alienating themselves from the rest of the prisoners.

[UndergroundConnexion]

from what I've read, Action Directe (French RAF) , are kept in realy really really bad condition, isolated, in the dark etc. etc. for over 25 years. Even child molesters are treated better.
This explains why many are now very ill.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by bolshevik [email protected] 15, 2007 11:44 am
It's frankly ridiculous to say that all prisoners are political. Yes crimes are a result of material conditions but that doesn't nescesserally make everyone a political prisoner, nor does it excuse some crinimal acts, eg rape.
No one is excusing anything, read the fucking thread before you say the same shit 30 other people have said. Prisons are an institution that exist solely for the benefit of the state and the bosses and those who have been captured and dumped there represent a hyper-exploited class within modern capitalist society. It does not matter what they did, no one deserves to be in prison. It accomplishes nothing but to further destroy them and strengthen the ruling classes. Already the innovations of the prisons are being exported to the outside world; we are all potential prisoners (and this is how the bosses view us!), and soon we will all be prisoners outside the walls. Supporting the prisons directly or indirectly (as through "special" designations) is inexcusable.



To say that every prisoner is a political prisoner flies in the face of those people jailed due to there role in the class struggle. Would you really say that ever prisoner is a political prisoner like these iranian trade unionists?

All prisoners occupy their position because of deviation from the ruling classes' standards. The best thing for jailed militants to do is to continue their work in building class struggle with the other prisoners, not beg for special treatment and seperate themselves from would-be allies. I admire the courage and strength of those who will go to prison for their political beliefs, and many of them are jailed "wrongly" (although expecting to not be punished by the state when one stands in direct opposition to its interests is insanity to me), but I refuse to justify the existence of prisons by arbitrarily determining that some prisoners are more worthy than others.


The Labour movement has a long history of standing in solidarity with political prisoners long may it continue.

We should stand in solidarity with all those exploited and oppressed by the bosses. We are, after all, aiming for the complete destruction of this society.

[Honggweilo]

Originally posted by BMBC+--> (BMBC)Why did you put things in quotes that BR never said?[/b]
I didnt claim he said that, i just indicated what i thought was his point of view on a liberated society. He can correct me if i'm wrong


BMBC
And if they don't want to do that, then their life will probably become much more difficult. By presure of society or some form of detention? because if you just let them free i don't think the majority would have a pretty positive reaction on it.. thats like turning the other cheek crap.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 02:46 pm
By presure of society or some form of detention? because if you just let them free i don't think the majority would have a pretty positive reaction on it.. thats like turning the other cheek crap.
What do you mean "if you?" I wouldn't be doing or deciding anything, it would be a communal decision for what to do with them. But abolishing prison doesn't mean there are no consequences for anti-social actions, it just means that the consequences are not "lock them up and throw away the key."

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by ddt
I didnt claim he said that, i just indicated what i thought was his point of view on a liberated society. He can correct me if i'm wrong

You're wrong. The non-custodial alternatives you attributed to me where actually listed by another member, not me; i was responding to his dismissal of alternatives to imprisonment generally - not endorsing the things he listed as a desireable alternative.

[ComradeR]

But from what i can tell those who want the abolition of imprisonment want to replace it with supervised release, probation, restitution to victims, or community work. But this amounts to a slap on the wrist to those who commit the crime and spiting on the face of the victims.
What i meant when i said this is that letting a serial (killer, rapist, child molester) to just go on parole, from which they can simple walk away from and go on committing those crimes is an insult to the victims. I wasn't referring to ordinary criminals, i should have clarified that.


Prisons are archaic systems of oppression and must be abolished.
I agree prisons as they exist now need to be abolished but imprisonment shouldn't be. People who harm others can't be allowed to just walk free so they can do it again. But they shouldn't be just locked up in a concrete box and left to rot, there needs to be rehabilitation and education programs in conjunction with some form of custodian imprisonment.


You sound like a bourgeois politcian :angry:
Ouch!


Property is 9/10 of the law. There will be no reason for people to commit crime after the revolution. But obviously there will be a few people who will be born sociopaths and feel the need to hurt people. I think rehabilition and utilising societal benefits of inclusion over alienation will make crime dissapear almost entirely.
Crimes such as domestic violence, rape, murder resulting from emotion or an argument, and child molestation are not the result of the economic system and will still exist after the revolution.