religion and the left - why isn't religion and the left comp

[rediska]

I was curious to know what you think on the following subject:
Why is religion often associated with the right wing views?.. From what I know about Christianity it seems that it does have some elements of the utopist communist thinking in it. For example, the early monastery communities (when the Church had not become an influential institution) were pretty much communist – everyone did their share of work and everyone enjoyed the goods produced, even though they were not concerned about the “goods” so much. I’m talking about Christianity because it’s the religion that is mostly associated with extremist right. As to the Eastern religions they also have some elements of communism in them as well (ex. Tibet, before it was conquered by China). Judaism and Islam encourage forming a strong community of their adherents, sharing etc. Bakunin and others label church as “evil”, but they mean a Church as an institution, not the religion itself.
I was raised in an atheist family and I don’t know the religions as well as some of the people probably do. So why is religion (as philosophy) not compatible with the left?

[Xvall]

Religion, Has, and will continue to be used by bad people to exploit others. I do not believe religion is bad, and I am somewhat of an athiest myself. But it seems as though most, if not all religions teach similar values,, such as sharing, working together, and overall haveing a fufilling life. It is times like now however, that militiant fundamentalists like George Bush and Osama Bin Laden take religion to it's extremes, and curve it's goals and ideals. I think in actuallity, religion is very left, but has been manipulated to become a propoganda tool.

- Drake Dracoli

[nkarne69]

we had a good (well something of a good) conversation on religion about a month ago in q&a.

i agree with drake that religion can be a very dangerous weapon of the enemy, however i consider myself a Christian and a Communist, and i'm not alone.

i don't think that, outside of the us, religion is associated with the right. christianity was used to fight Communism because there are certain passages in the Bible which do tell people to submit to authority. on the other hand there is a number of passages ("sell all your possesions and give them to the poor") which are very leftist and their is a history of Christians on the left which has been largely ignored in amerika. A 17th century english Christian by the name of Gerrard Winstanley established an agrigarian commune for the poor by seizing public land in England two hundred years before Marx (of course those evil puritans harrassed him and his followers until they gave up.) there's also the history of liberation theology among catholics in Latin America (progressive and leftist, though usually not Communist). heck our government even helped to plan the assassination of an arch-bishop (Oscar Romero) who was sympathetic to liberation theology in el salvador. there are also a number of leftist "devotional" type writers (i consider them moderates but most of the world would call them leftists) such as Ron Sider, Henri Nouwen, and Richard Foster. Of course in amerika our horribly conservative culture is full of right wing christians, but England and Latin America have plenty of left wing Christians.

[Michael De Panama]

Marx was against the church.

Quite personally, I think religious freedom is very important. However, imposing your religion on others, like the Spaniards did in the Inquisition or like all the Europeans did to the Native Americans, is wrong. Imposing athiesm, however, is just as bad. No belief should be imposed on someone. Freedom of religion is freedom of thought, regardless of whether or not you believe that religion prevents you from thinking for yourself.

[I Will Deny You]

With the exception of scientology, all religions are very, very old. And conservatives, naturally, seem to want to go backwards while progressives want to go forwards. This might be why religious fanatics team up with hardcore right-wingers. Most religions preach treating women as second-class citizens and feminists are naturally on the left.

However, I've worked in homeless shelters run by Catholics who were hard-core leftists on everything except for abortion. So it all depends, really.

[Michael De Panama]

(Scientology is such a load of crap.)

[El Brujo]

Quote: from Drake Dracoli on 10:41 am on April 3, 2002
Religion, Has, and will continue to be used by bad people to exploit others. I do not believe religion is bad, and I am somewhat of an athiest myself. But it seems as though most, if not all religions teach similar values,, such as sharing, working together, and overall haveing a fufilling life. It is times like now however, that militiant fundamentalists like George Bush and Osama Bin Laden take religion to it's extremes, and curve it's goals and ideals. I think in actuallity, religion is very left, but has been manipulated to become a propoganda tool.

- Drake Dracoli


Couldn't of said it better myself. Religion indeed is very leftist if you look at its ideology. Jesus preached that everyone was equal in the eyes of God and hung around the lowest of the low: prostitutes, beggars, etc. He claimed that no rich man could ever be blessed and refused to do miracles privately for the Roman opressors. It had always at first been a progressive movement. Enter the fanatics, power-hungry tyrants that use religion to come to and stay in power, hate groups that use distorted versions of the religion as an excuse to discriminate and it molded a lot of the following into an elitist cult with a "holier than thou" attitude.

If you haven't seen this site yet, its a perfect example of what Im talking about:
http://www.geocities.com/mrspeggymcnamara/index.html

(Edited by El Brujo at 4:43 pm on April 3, 2002)

[Reuben]

Secular freedom is also very important (I.E. the freedom for atheists).

This is undermined by religious schools who are happy to take state funding and have us alll pay for them but only want to admit students who adhere to their religion.

[peaccenicked]

From Engels on Early Christianity.
"In fact, the struggle against a world that at the beginning was superior in force, and at the same time against the novators themselves, is common to the early Christians and the Socialists. Neither of these two great movements were made by leaders or prophets -- although there are prophets enough among both of them -- they are mass movements. And mass movements are bound to be confused at the beginning; confused because the thinking of the masses at first moves among contradictions, lack of clarity and lack of cohesion, and also because of the role that prophets still play in them at the beginning. This confusion is to be seen in the formation of numerous sects which right against one another with at least the same zeal as against the common external enemy. So it was with early Christianity, so it was in the beginning of the socialist movement, no matter how much that worried the well-meaning worthies who preached unity where no unity was possible."

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Drake Dracoli on 2:41 am on April 3, 2002
Religion, Has, and will continue to be used by bad people to exploit others. I do not believe religion is bad, and I am somewhat of an athiest myself. But it seems as though most, if not all religions teach similar values,, such as sharing, working together, and overall haveing a fufilling life. It is times like now however, that militiant fundamentalists like George Bush and Osama Bin Laden take religion to it's extremes, and curve it's goals and ideals. I think in actuallity, religion is very left, but has been manipulated to become a propoganda tool.

- Drake Dracoli


Thats debateable. Religion doesn't need to have anything to do with politics, atleast noth with open minded religous people. Not all Christians are into all that dogmatic bullshit. I for one am a Catholic, but if the Pope told me I couldn't be socialist I wouldn't listen to him

[El Che]

In my opinion all religion is virus. Virus of the mind, virus of lucidity, virus against reason.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from El Che on 4:12 pm on April 3, 2002
In my opinion all religion is virus. Virus of the mind, virus of lucidity, virus against reason.How is humanist Judaism unreasonable?

[Guest1]

I'm of the view that religion is fine as long as we don't allow it to be used against us. I was raised as a muslim, never bought into the "stone adulterers to death" crap that Saudi Arabia and Iran were preaching. I'm now an atheist, but I don't think religion is bad, when it's institutionalized, then it becomes a problem. Why should religion be under the jurisdiction of the government? In such a case (Iran, Israel, Saudi Arabia), it is used by the government to oppress, and that is expected. Any resistance to specific government policies is treated as a crime against God or, in the case of Israel, racism.

[Malvinas Argentinas]

I am christian and communist. And i dont really see why they are uncompatible. I disagree with this point. There is nothing wrong in having religious beliefs.
If fundamentalists use it as a tool, doesnt mean that religion is bad

[Kingnothing]

Personaly i do not think that religous belief and communsim are incompatible, i think that organized religions (ie the vatican) are incompatible with communism. This is becouse they are elitist, pro fascist, and constantly try to impose their visions upon others also becouse they think they are the holders of "truth". But, basically there is nothing incompatible between commusnism and believing in a god (i don´t belive in a god but anyone is free to belive waht they want.). The problem is that these belives have been distorted by organized religion. In latin amercia priests were among the most revolutionary sectors, they were known as the third world priests and in many cases were marxists but all of them rejected the vatican. As one of them said " Si Jesus viviera seria un revolucionario" (if jesus lived, he would be a revolutionary).

[El Che]

"How is humanist Judaism unreasonable?"

How is religion unreasonable? hmm, let me put it another way, religion operates marginaly to reason. Its not unreasonable for one to be religious... That is an individual choice. But religion its self is not "reasonable" in that it places it self above reason. And in so doing escapes all logic and reasoning, more especificaly it escapes questioning and analysis by the same. This is why I call it a virus, a virus that causes you to temporarily malfunction and shut out reason. A virus that makes you acept something as true without any reasonable questioning of what you are assimilating. You may be both reasonable and religious, but you can not be both at the same time, subtile difference there.


When you start to think in religious terms you place reason aside, the more religious you are the more often you place reason aside and the more afected you are by the "virus". An example is fanatism, these are people who have abandoned all reason because they are continuosly under the influence of the virus. They guide all there actions by something other then reason and what you get as end result is maddness. That is an extreme case, but you will no doubt confirm that in religious matters all forms of profane knowledge are considered irrelevante and secondary. To a person such as my self, that considers only profane knowledge to have some validity, religion is the cult of maddness. My words may seem harsh but I like to be blunt and straight forward. Religions have many names shapes and forms, this to me, unimportant. They are only cosmetic changes, matters of detail or degrees in maddness. I can not prove my position as some of you will no doubt remind me but nither do I wish to, its only my opinion and lets leave it at that as far as proof goes. You on the other hand cant prove your religious beliefs either, but nither do you wish to, for you place religion above reason and reasonable proof.

(Edited by El Che at 8:36 am on April 5, 2002)