Marxism for Gang Bangers 101

[R_P_A_S]

There has been plenty discussion on what class gang members fall under, and what role they will play in the revolution. However I get the feeling that many of you don't have any personal experience with actual gangs and gang members, or perhaps you don't even know any. (Is not a bad thing nor an accusation! I'm just saying!)

However I do know many people who gang bang, and who are members of some pretty violent gangs here in California and I have friends who are in prison for crimes committed for their gangs.

There have been times that I've talked to some of them about marxism and such things. but the attention span is not that great. And besides they have better things to worry about like "making money, watching out for enemies and the police" and can you really blame them?

Let's analyze what the mentality and the concerns are for the youth and adults who are gang members in the ghettos of America. Lets point out what these things are and in simple terms using their very own environment and lives as an example show them how they are too oppressed, they are not alone and that they are victims of not only their neighborhood violence BUT of a BIGGER problem, a BIGGER enemy that not only attacks them but the entire oppressed population.

I hope all that make sense. and that by now you understand that I'm not saying or trying to say anything new. I'm just trying to simplify marxism as much as possible so that it hits home for every person. It has to be personal so that everyone can see we are all oppressed by the same oppressor. and since this oppressor has also turned us against each other by teaching us racism and by type casting us with social classes, stereo types and religion. He has left us to fight each other compete against each other so that all attention is withdraw away from it, the oppressive state, capitalism, the bourgeoisie, etc.

OK! now back to the Gangs and gang banger issue..

lets start from the beginning... there will be question with numbers. if you want to answer a question please put the NUMBER of the question next to your answer.. here we go. and if you want to add questions feel free to do so and place a number too!

****KEEP IN MIND THAT WE ARE TRYING TO SIMPLIFY THINGS SO THAT THESE GUYS CAN UNDERSTAND IT, TRY TO STAY AWAY FROM DEEP TERMINOLOGY! JUST HIT THEM WITH FACTS THAT CAN HIT HOME!********

1. The place where these people are born and grow up in.
-how or who started the ghettos? why do they exist and how come nothing is done to better them?

[Spirit of Spartacus]

Gang-bangers?

Err...you sure you got that right?

[ComradeR]

Gang-bangers?

Err...you sure you got that right?
Yeah he's right, gang members often refer to themselves as "gang-bangers" and gang activity is often referred to as "banging" or "gang-banging".


1. The place where these people are born and grow up in.
-how or who started the ghettos? why do they exist and how come nothing is done to better them?
No one "created" ghettos, they are are merely symptoms of the horrible inequality created by capitalism. They're not improved because a) there's no real profit to be made by doing it, and b) they serve a purpose by helping to keep those who have the most to gain, and thus more likely to create a revolution from uniting by keeping them fractured. At lest that's my understanding of it.

[jaycee]

I think you have to recognise the differences in gangs and their hierarchy rather than talking about gangs as a whole. The gang bosses are just like capitalists, but their field is in an area of trade deemed illegal by other capitalists, just as the people doing the pushing etc reflect the position of workers.

Gangs aren't oppressed ordinary gang members are tho.

[bcbm]

No one "created" ghettos

Actually, many were created through racist redlining policies in the 1950's.

[BreadBros]

Originally posted by black coffee black [email protected] 12, 2007 05:47 pm

No one "created" ghettos

Actually, many were created through racist redlining policies in the 1950's.
In the bigger American cities their existence predates even that. In most cases ghettos were often at one time neighborhoods exclusively populated by either blacks or immigrants to keep them segregated from the rest of society. Some of the more famous ghettoes have even passed down from one poor immigrant generation to another. There are two examples that come to mind. The Lower East Side in NYC was once the haven of poor Irish immigrants, later became the haven for Jewish and Italian immigrants during the turn of the century, then Latino immigrants in the middle of the century, most recently Chinese immigrants and now its in the process of being gentrified totally by yuppies. Similarly Boyle Heights in LA (a "notorious" neighborhood for gang activity) was once completely Jewish, then became very Japanese and is now almost entirely Latino. I think that sequence of historical change should greatly show anyone how systematic poverty, racism and anti-immigrant American society has been since its inception and continues to be and would hopefully give some perspective to any gang members, although as RPAS said most of them are likely caught up in other far more urgent life-or-death matters.

[Sadena Meti]

Man my mind is in the gutter. I thought this was going to be some humorous post on "a socialist approach to group sex."

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by rev-[email protected] 12, 2007 07:03 pm
Man my mind is in the gutter. I thought this was going to be some humorous post on "a socialist approach to group sex."
LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!

[Janus]

how or who started the ghettos? why do they exist
Our "ghettoes" were originally based on racial divides that later grew into socio-economic divides.


and how come nothing is done to better them?
In order to properly deal with many gangs, poverty, etc. in the US. It requires a full revamping of the political and social system; something that is simply not in the foreseeable future.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

since they probably really hate the cops, tell them the marxist opinion.

Tell them that the cops are merely tools of their real enemies.

Tell them about communism in the sense that it is not a quiet and polite politics, getting communism is brutal hostile and aggressive, at least towards our class enemies and their lackies.

[Red October]

Originally posted by rev-[email protected] 12, 2007 02:03 pm
Man my mind is in the gutter. I thought this was going to be some humorous post on "a socialist approach to group sex."
is there a way to do that?

[Les Enragés]

When the revolution starts gangs will side with the side that will promote their immediate pecuniary interests. Most of the gang members will betray the workers revolution and side with the bourgeoisie. Only few will be won over to our side, surely.

[Cryotank Screams]

My question is, how can you possibly espect the lumpenproletariat to ever be considered a revolutionary class, when it goes strictly against the definition, and are unproductive and regressive, and will never join with revolutionary forces?

You don't need much knowledge or experince with gangs, and gang members to make this assumption/assertion.

[Red October]

in a post-revolutionary society (hopefully), there would be no need for people to turn to gangs in order to make a living. you might still have gang bosses and such, but how would they function without a large pool of desperate people to exploit? during a revolution gangs could be easily manipulated by the government to oppose the revolution, but once it succeeded i think they would fade away for the most part

[Question everything]

My question is, how can you possibly espect the lumpenproletariat to ever be considered a revolutionary class, when it goes strictly against the definition, and are unproductive and regressive, and will never join with revolutionary forces?

sorry this is an innocent question but the definition of Lumpenproletariat I read defined them as unemployed, or part of organisations such as gangs, or petty thieves, if I'm right then aren't they even angry at the system? wouldn't they be even more desperate for a chance at living a life without police and poverty?

[Red October]

Originally posted by Question [email protected] 12, 2007 05:06 pm

My question is, how can you possibly espect the lumpenproletariat to ever be considered a revolutionary class, when it goes strictly against the definition, and are unproductive and regressive, and will never join with revolutionary forces?

sorry this is an innocent question but the definition of Lumpenproletariat I read defined them as unemployed, or part of organisations such as gangs, or petty thieves, if I'm right then aren't they even angry at the system? wouldn't they be even more desperate for a chance at living a life without police and poverty?
depends. some people classified as lumpenproletariate such as beggars and such would benefit greatly from an end to capitalism. other lumpenproletarians thrive off the misery caused by captialism (gang bosses, pimps, drug lords, etc).

[Cryotank Screams]

Originally posted by Question [email protected] 12, 2007 06:06 pm
sorry this is an innocent question but the definition
I define the lumpenproletariat as the following;


'refuse of all classes,' including 'swindlers, confidence tricksters, brothel-keepers, rag-and-bone merchants, organ-grinders, beggars, and other flotsam of society.'


the proletariat and bourgeoisie were productive and progressive, advancing the historical process by developing society's labor power and its capabilities, whereas the 'lumpenproletariat' was unproductive and regressive.

[rouchambeau]

You know, Cryotank Screams, you would do well to back up your assertions and do a little more than say "well, Marx said 'x', so x is true."

[Cryotank Screams]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 06:42 pm
You know, Cryotank Screams, you would do well to back up your assertions and do a little more than say "well, Marx said 'x', so x is true."
You do well to actually come with an argument against my posts if you have a such a disliking towards them as to post this nonsense, and really my posts in this thread are quite explicit in what I mean, and my assertions are quite clear, even though I didn't give any specific ones per se, it would be only logical to assume the business of gang members and gangs and apply it to the theories of Marx provided, to see my argument.

[R_P_A_S]

lets please try to stick on ways to tell and explain the gang members..

1. who the real enemies are!

2. and how even their enemies form rival gangs and rival races also share in the same struggle as they do. and as every person world wide!!!

i think for them understanding why they live the way they do and how life came to be like that is very important. many just thing thats how life is and thats how its always gonna be.

explain in PLAIN english how the system just puts them there so they can continue fighting each other killing each other. instead of directing all attention and their aggression to the system. etc. etc.

[R_P_A_S]

anymore? im actually watching this thing on National Explorer.. about the MS 13... so lets get this thread going!

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 11:03 pm
1. who the real enemies are!

The real enemies are the fucks with loads of money that can own factories and other places that people work, each one of them keeps 100+ brothers down - they make each man work for them and take the money that is reall made by the fuy working in the factiry. They do the same with women but even worse because they make most women feel they can't even work in the facoties and shit The real enemy doesn't need to com to your house to steal shit, the real enemy steals shit and then steals more when they ask you to "pay" for your house.

I hope that makes sense and is plain proletarian english.



2. and how even their enemies form rival gangs and rival races also share in the same struggle as they do. and as every person world wide!!!
Every person that has to exist in this program, where the rich run everything and they don't want to share, no matter how much you earn by dealing or stealing. YOur real enemey wears a suit and every time you hit a guy in another gang it's better for them, they can keep going and have nothing to fear. All the race and place divisions help them earn real money off real people who try to go legit, because everything legit is paying the rich theives and everything against other gangs and other racs helps - the rich don't give a shit when you're killing - they never lose their own.

As I said before, I hope that makes sense.

[insurgent]

Originally posted by R_P_A_S+February 12, 2007 03:03 pm--> (R_P_A_S @ February 12, 2007 03:03 pm)

1. who the real enemies are!

2. and how even their enemies form rival gangs and rival races also share in the same struggle as they do. and as every person world wide!!!

[/b]

Originally posted by "R P A S"@
1. who the real enemies are!

Do you think it would be hard to show gang members that the government is the enemy? It would only take a few people in each ghetto that understand the problem to educate their neighbors. Have you seen dont be a menace to south central while drinking your juice in the hood? Wasnt that the movie that had the political guy that no one listened to. Maybe I'm totally wrong :lol: but I just thought of that for some reason. Am I thinking of a different movie? This is gunna bother the hell out of me. He knew all the crazy conspiracy theories and he'd go rant about them and shit.

Anyway, I think a lot of them already know who the enemies are. Changing enemies to enemy is the thing that needs to be done.



"R P A S"
]2. and how even their enemies form rival gangs and rival races also share in the same struggle as they do. and as every person world wide!!!

That would be very challenging and I have no idea how to unite them because they hate each other and I cant even begin to understand why.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by insurgent+February 13, 2007 02:08 am--> (insurgent @ February 13, 2007 02:08 am)
Originally posted by R_P_A_S+February 12, 2007 03:03 pm--> (R_P_A_S @ February 12, 2007 03:03 pm)

1. who the real enemies are!

2. and how even their enemies form rival gangs and rival races also share in the same struggle as they do. and as every person world wide!!!

[/b]

"R P A S"@
1. who the real enemies are!

Do you think it would be hard to show gang members that the government is the enemy? It would only take a few people in each ghetto that understand the problem to educate their neighbors. Have you seen dont be a menace to south central while drinking your juice in the hood? Wasnt that the movie that had the political guy that no one listened to. Maybe I'm totally wrong :lol: but I just thought of that for some reason. Am I thinking of a different movie? This is gunna bother the hell out of me. He knew all the crazy conspiracy theories and he'd go rant about them and shit.

Anyway, I think a lot of them already know who the enemies are. Changing enemies to enemy is the thing that needs to be done.



"R P A S"
]2. and how even their enemies form rival gangs and rival races also share in the same struggle as they do. and as every person world wide!!!

That would be very challenging and I have no idea how to unite them because they hate each other and I cant even begin to understand why. [/b]
well.. um then i guess you have nothing to contribute. I'm not going to preach to them.

[Organic Revolution]

well i hang out with a lot of bangers, and when we have real conversation, they acknowledge that the real people who hold them down are the rich. the logic they tell me is that the rich send in the 5's to watch there nieghborhood, and since they way they dress they cant get a job, and so they sell drugs, and get locked up.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by Organic [email protected] 13, 2007 02:50 am
well i hang out with a lot of bangers, and when we have real conversation, they acknowledge that the real people who hold them down are the rich. the logic they tell me is that the rich send in the 5's to watch there nieghborhood, and since they way they dress they cant get a job, and so they sell drugs, and get locked up.
IF YOU SAY RICH.. then they automatically will think the lil rich girl at school or the average rich person.. noo thats not really the case.

[Purple]

Marx, the sociologist, would probably consider them alienated from society, which results in a seperation from the mainstream, as they are
unable to fit in with the general values, norms, and expectations.

According to Marx they either commit suicide(thats a bit of a excessive presumption, though) or start small time rebellion, often directed towards other proletarians, which generates a type of circle of misfortune(Communist Manifesto).

Have you ever seen a gang member activly opposing the biased power structure in society? In any case, that is what should be encouraged, instead of directing crimes against people of the same bottom class. Enlightenment is the key for all rebellion. One must know where to direct ones own individual power!

[Ultra-Violence]

http://diyzine.com/videoblackriders.html

There trying to do something revolutionary with gangs check it out

[CrimsonTide]

Originally posted by Cryotank Screams
My question is, how can you possibly espect the lumpenproletariat to ever be considered a revolutionary class, when it goes strictly against the definition, and are unproductive and regressive, and will never join with revolutionary forces?
No offence, pal, but you can go fuck yourself. I'm a lumpenprole (unemployed) and i'm just as revolutionary as any of you.

Seriously, man, how the fuck can you blame people for being unemployed when the system of Capitalism itself forces many people into this underclass?

If you can't see that, you're not revolutionary, asshole, and when the revolution finally comes, you can for damned sure bet you'll find my gun at your head.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by CrimsonTide+February 15, 2007 11:18 pm--> (CrimsonTide @ February 15, 2007 11:18 pm)
Cryotank Screams
My question is, how can you possibly espect the lumpenproletariat to ever be considered a revolutionary class, when it goes strictly against the definition, and are unproductive and regressive, and will never join with revolutionary forces?
No offence, pal, but you can go fuck yourself. I'm a lumpenprole (unemployed) and i'm just as revolutionary as any of you.

Seriously, man, how the fuck can you blame people for being unemployed when the system of Capitalism itself forces many people into this underclass?

If you can't see that, you're not revolutionary, asshole, and when the revolution finally comes, you can for damned sure bet you'll find my gun at your head. [/b]
its cool bro! i see what you mean and understand where you are coming from. but at the same time many of us.. including my self are still learning and might not have all the answers, or fully understand this stuff. so it can be difficult to articulate. i speak from experience.

lets take it easy and try not to insult comrades. I notice sometimes we are quick to tell someone fuck you! instead indulging in debate. so that we can further our thoughts.

[Question everything]

Man my mind is in the gutter. I thought this was going to be some humorous post on "a socialist approach to group sex."

accually I thought the same thing... you should really be more specific R P A S :P 'course my mind is all ways in the gutter (I'm not exactly sure what he means by that but I'm guessing he means really "out of it")


If you can't see that, you're not revolutionary, asshole, and when the revolution finally comes, you can for damned sure bet you'll find my gun at your head. but not at me right? I stuck up for you :wub: ( :P ) but you've got a point, still I think you are using different definitions of Lumpen pole. still you're right, I think that if you can't accept the lumpen pole. as a revolutionary you won't get very far... still Pimps aren't going to turn around and hug communism, Drug lords are counter-revolutionary... however there sub-ordonates are not, likely the class would divide in the event or revolution

OH and Purple, I wanted to use that avatar :P , you Canadian?