Class Struggle

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

I've been doing some thinking and one of my main concerns is that people will become so caught up with social class that they would automatically assume all of the middle class and all of the upper class are evil and deserve death. Perhaps having a glance at propaganda from certain strains of the anarchist current has lead me to this concern, and I think that people need to think twice before judging.

The thing is, there will be many people with money who at one point empathised with the radical left viewpoint but abandoned it after discouragements of some sort or another. Someone like Engels is a good example of a capitalist communist. And, to elaborate further, there are probably many more people caught up in the rat race who resent their careers but have no way of expressing it.

So enough of the "class war" when there are people out there who could potentially want to help us and also happen to have money. The struggle transcends social class and becomes a struggle between those with power and those without. Provided those fellow travellers acknowledge that they will be treated as equals and not superiors, and that they will not be the sole leaders in a future socialist society where everyone has political power.

And taking a look around here on this site, the fact that we have Internet connections is a strong indicator that the leftist spirit is not something shared only by the working class.

[DiggerII]

[QUOTE=RadioFreeJuan,February 12, 2007 01:41 am] one of my main concerns is that people will become so caught up with social class that they would automatically assume all of the middle class and all of the upper class are evil and deserve death


i don't know about that. it seems to me that there are plenty of people in the middle and upper classes who want to help the exploited peoples of the world. che and Allende are prime examples of such people who were brought up wealthy but dedicated their lives to the poor and oppressed.

[R_P_A_S]

I agree. I can't stress enough how there are many people in the world who just happened to have grown up financially well off, or made their money and are now financially secure who have NO IDEA about how capitalism is a real piece of shit system. They might see how somethings are unfair but just like many people they too think/ "thats how life is" and no one can ever change things.

Is not just the working class who is misinformed and uneducated about their situation. It's also some of this middle class and upper class people.

Not all are evil and not all want to exploit people. they just haven't been "enlighten"

I believe reaching people and making them understand how much better ALL will be if we didn't live under capitalism. is a key move and we should engage in more dialogue before we kick some ass.
remember a revolution needs support and the people have to be all in!

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

i don't know about that. it seems to me that there are plenty of people in the middle and upper classes who want to help the exploited peoples of the world. che and Allende are prime examples of such people who were brought up wealthy but dedicated their lives to the poor and oppressed.


Which is what I'm saying, exactly.

It's just that I was looking at some anarchist graphics today and they left me quite disillusioned, they were all about death to all the rich and the like.

I guess it goes without saying that there will be working people who despise and hate us, too.

[DiggerII]

hmm, for some reason i have a hard time thinking that these graphics really represent anarchist sentiment. I'm not an anarchist personnally, but massive slaughter of the "evil" rich doesn't seem like the thing to do. we're trying to be rid of such cruelty are we not? lol

so i do agree with you it's quite odd, but i'd say take the pictures with a grain of salt.

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

In the end I think that becoming elitist about one's working class background is more of a threat to any revolution than anything else. Everyone is stuck inside the machine, like it or not, and the more people we help escape, no matter what background, the better.

[Rawthentic]

Everybody escapes or nobody escapes.

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

Couldn't have put it better.

[bcbm]

Until the rich and their ****ish allies stop stepping on my back and keeping me in chains, they're my enemy. Period.

[BobKKKindle$]

It is unfair to speak of the capitalist class as being evil. The accumulation of money with which to invest in the production of commodities is, according to Marxist analysis, only possible through the exploitation of workers, granted. However, the capitalist undertakes this exploitation not (solely) because he is greedy, but in order to maintain competition with the other capitalists producing the same commodity as he through investing in constant capital and repairing the deprecitation of fixed capital. In other words, he is simply acting on his class interests. Saying that, though, it is certainly true that people do not act solely according to their class interests - as people have pointed out, many pople from privelaged backgrounds have played an important role in fighting injustice.

Oh, and by the way, Engels may have been wealthy, but he was not a capitalist, because he did not have ownership of the means of production.

[KC]

In other words, he is simply acting on his class interests. Saying that, though, it is certainly true that people do not act solely according to their class interests - as people have pointed out, many pople from privelaged backgrounds have played an important role in fighting injustice.

Yes, this is true to an extent. However, these personal interests will never trump class interests. In fact, the way in which people go about acting on these personal interests are shaped by their class interests.

[bcbm]

However, the capitalist undertakes this exploitation not (solely) because he is greedy, but in order to maintain competition with the other capitalists producing the same commodity as he through investing in constant capital and repairing the deprecitation of fixed capital. In other words, he is simply acting on his class interests

It doesn't matter if they act out of greed or simply their "class interests-" their actions are counter to my interests.

[KC]

It doesn't matter if they act out of greed or simply their "class interests-" their actions are counter to my interests.

Well, yeah, but to call capitalists "evil" or "greedy" is incorrect.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by Zampanò@February 12, 2007 11:42 am

It doesn't matter if they act out of greed or simply their "class interests-" their actions are counter to my interests.

Well, yeah, but to call capitalists "evil" or "greedy" is incorrect.
I never did.

[cenv]

First of all, this isn't something to be described by the adjectives "evil" or "good". It's not a simple black-and-white moral issue. Both the proletariat and the bourgeoisie are greedy in that they seek to establish or maintain a system that puts them in an improved position at the expense of other classes.

You certainly have a point. Some members of the bourgeoisie, or even more likely, the petty-bourgeoisie, will join the working class in revolutionary times. I think that's more true now than ever considering that capitalism is beginning to be develop a threatening aspect towards humanity in general with the prospect of environmental catastrophy and wars more dangerous than ever.

However, it's worth keeping in mind that the idea of class struggle is a generalization. There will certainly be individual elements of the petty-bourgeoisie and even the bourgeoisie that serve the revolutionary cause, but generally, the ruling classes will fall into the counterrevolutionary camp. It's not just a matter of wanting to retain a privileged position in society although that's certainly a large part of it; you also have to keep in mind that for members of the petty-bourgeoisie and bourgeoisie, their entire consciousnesses are shaped by their positions in society. They often will really believe that capitalism is the best possible s ystem. If you don't think that's true, try talking about politics, economics, or general ideas related to the social order with some members of the petty-bourgeoisie or bourgeoisie; you'll be amazed how warped their views of society are simply because they've grown up in affluent families and have a very privileged position in society.

Another thing to remember is that even though we can probably rely on part of the petty-bourgeoisie and a tiny faction of the bourgeoisie to aid the workers' revolutionary struggle, it's up to the proletariat to start the revolution and to awaken society as a whole. While some members of the petty-bourgeoisie and bourgeoisie will indeed join the workers, we sure as hell cannot rely on the petty-bourgeoisie or bourgeoisie to start the revolution for us.

Finally, you mention that not everyone on RevLeft is proletarian. Firstly, you can't simply deduce that because someone has an Internet connection, they're petty-bourgeois or bourgeois; the most you can do is conclude that within the proletariat, they're probably some of the more well-off workers in the larger scheme of things. That doesn't mean they can't be working class. Second, check back in a few years to see how many people here are still interested in working towards a new society and still involved in the struggle; you can bet that of those that are, the vast majority will be proletarian. For most petty-bourgeois leftists, politics is an idle hobby and not usually something important that sticks with them for a long period of time. There are, obviously, exceptions, but it's generally the case that most petty-bourgeois radicals outgrow their revolutionary ideals, more so than proletarians.

Having said that, I'm always happy to fight along side a comrade from petty-bourgeois origins as long as he or she isn't seeking a leadership position in the movement.

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

You summed it up well for me, especially the last sentance. If someone expects to hold a higher station than everyone else then we get a Stalin figure.

[CrimsonTide]

Originally posted by black coffee black metal
Until the rich and their ****ish allies stop stepping on my back and keeping me in chains, they're my enemy. Period.
Amen, in a completely non-religous way.

If the petty bourgeois wish to live, they should stay out of our way on our march to exterminate the true oppressors: The Full Bourgeois.

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

Exterminate as in just remove their ability to dominate everyone else, or exterminate as in exterminate? If the latter, then so much for our equality.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 09:13 pm
Exterminate as in just remove their ability to dominate everyone else, or exterminate as in exterminate? If the latter, then so much for our equality.
We will remove their ability to dominate. If they get in the way, we'll do whatever is neccessary to end that.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 09:41 pm



It's just that I was looking at some anarchist graphics today and they left me quite disillusioned, they were all about death to all the rich and the like.

Those slogans don't literally mean death to all rich people. It's inflamatory propaganda, thats its purpose. However, to state that there would be no casualities amongst the ruling class during a revolution is just plain naive.


and one of my main concerns is that people will become so caught up with social class that they would automatically assume all of the middle class and all of the upper class are evil and deserve death.

Thats not whats happening at all. It's that most people think they can be middle class or that being middle class is actually means something. In reality there is no middle class.


I've been doing some thinking Perhaps having a glance at propaganda from certain strains of the anarchist current has lead me to this concern, and I think that people need to think twice before judging.

What are you referring to?


The thing is, there will be many people with money who at one point empathised with the radical left viewpoint but abandoned it after discouragements of some sort or another.

So what? Winning the hearts and minds of the bourgeois is not our purpose. They are not the revolutionary class so their thoughts don't matter.


So enough of the "class war" when there are people out there who could potentially want to help us and also happen to have money.

Fuck that. Bring on the class war because we aren't going to have the means of production until we TAKE them. Appealing to irrelevant sectors of class society for support of a PROLETARIAN revolution serves no purpose.

Theoretically we should see the re proletarianization of the petty bourgeois to some extent. This is pretty much true as professionals are now seeing class struggles in their own industries. However there will always be sections of the petty bourgeois and even the proletariat which we will not have on our side. Thats why revolutions are hard to win.


Provided those fellow travellers acknowledge that they will be treated as equals and not superiors, and that they will not be the sole leaders in a future socialist society where everyone has political power.

Where has any anarchist organization proposed otherwise? I have yet to see a publication advocating the death of people who voluntarly give up their grasp on the means of prodcution. However the reality is that most will not give up the means of production, thats why its a class war.



And taking a look around here on this site, the fact that we have Internet connections is a strong indicator that the leftist spirit is not something shared only by the working class.

The internet is not a bourgeois luxury. It's afforded by all classes except of course the lumpen class however they have access to the internet as well through libraries and cafes.

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

What are you referring to?

This is a prime example.
*yes, I'm aware it does not represent the entire movement in any way.

http://www.infoshop.org/graphics/classwar_03.gif



So what? Winning the hearts and minds of the bourgeois is not our purpose. They are not the revolutionary class so their thoughts don't matter.



What if we won over the chief of police?

Yes, obviously the people at the top won't want to relinquish anything for the most part, but their immediate subordinates might wish to. And it's always fun to bring up Kropotkin, who was a Prince after all. (obviously a rare thing, but if he had that kind of awakening why can't more people?)

Anyways, most everyone has been patient with me, so I'd like to thank them for that. I suppose my main casus belli here was to wage a war on generalisations. Yes, there is a class struggle (that nobody outside of the leftist community seems aware of) but at the same time when people are willing to say "oh, he's a petite bourgeouise, I won't consider what he has to say" it bothers me. If nobody had considered Guevara, Kropotkin, et al then it would have been a damned shame.

Out of curiousity, has anyone here read "An Appeal to the Young?" Essentially Kropotkin tries to show the well-off young people the benifets of socialism.

[RGacky3]

I'm against a system, not people. Hate the sin not the sinner.

Many people who helped revolutions were well off, and being well off does'nt mean your a Capitalist thats exploiting people, Doctors (and other high payed workers) and the Self Empoloyed don't exploit people but they are well off. Many of these people just follow their Moral tendancy towards Solidarity with his fellow man (I know a lot of people here see Morality as a naughty word, but its there and it exists, and some people follow it and thank God they do)

[YSR]

You have to crack a few eggs to make an omelet.

Nobody wants to "kill the rich" in anything more than a rhetorical sense. Of course, propaganda is propaganda. But class war is real, and we're the ones getting killed. Every day, capitalism, supported and institutionalized by the ruling class, kills more of our comrades.

I'm not crying for those capitalist scum. My tears are too busy being used for our fellow workers and friends who are dying today.

[Janus]

What if we won over the chief of police?
Our goal is to "win over" the masses not bureaucratic officials.


but at the same time when people are willing to say "oh, he's a petite bourgeouise, I won't consider what he has to say" it bothers me. If nobody had considered Guevara, Kropotkin, et al then it would have been a damned shame.
Guevara, Marx, Lenin, and the other revolutionaries spent a lot of time building up trust and support among workers and the people. It's not like they were immediately accepted right when they became communists.

[lentejos]

talking about rich people and how they should be killed if they oppose us, if we achieve communism what should we do with artist? i think they are over payed and also that some of them don't have any brains but if we achieve communism we need some form of art, paintings, literature, music, etc what should we do with them? what about their ideas, we need some of that stuff so we can advance into a more effective society. some of them could actually have some anti-communism ideas but even though we should hear them.



P.S. I'm new i have a lot of questions and sorry for my English i know it isn't very good

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 12:59 am
talking about rich people and how they should be killed if they oppose us, if we achieve communism what should we do with artist? i think they are over payed and also that some of them don't have any brains but if we achieve communism we need some form of art, paintings, literature, music, etc what should we do with them? what about their ideas, we need some of that stuff so we can advance into a more effective society. some of them could actually have some anti-communism ideas but even though we should hear them.



P.S. I'm new i have a lot of questions and sorry for my English i know it isn't very good
hello!

first off, rich people shouldnt be automatically killed, we arent barbarians

class struggle is about seizing in the means of production; if they try to kill us in the revolution, well now, things change a bit...

second, nobody is going to pay artists. people will have so much free time that people who were afraid of doing art because its very difficult to get money from it will be able to do art, and many people will be doing it!

communism will be a society of artists.

for example i may like writing, and with advanced forms of communications like the internet, i could publish my stuff, and if it is good, it will be famous. i wont get money out of it, but again, money will be abolished anyway.

ps many communists were artists, and i dont mean SOVIET STYLE COMMUNISTS. many of the avant garde artists, like surrealists, dadaists, situationists and many many others were communists. so people who say that communist art sucks and it is just limited to socialist realism (which sucks) are stupid and ignorant and dont know what they are saying

[lentejos]

well, that answer my question
i have another, what would be our only obligation, to work? or to do the things you like? what if someone decides not to work, just to sit around and scratch his head? what would we do with him? how can we punish him, what if he sent his son to work? you know like the little guys that are on the streets asking for money...what would be our reaction to those things... and also what are our rights? who can protect us from the big bad neighbor

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

Child labour would not be accepted, that's exploitation and dominance in a big way. As far as people who wouldn't want to work, you'll get lots of different answers but I think that they should either be given the chance to be self-employed and exchange their produce with the community for the right to the community's produce, or if they flat-out refuse to work they should still be given basic human rights like food, water, and heating, but not the full product until they decide to work.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 01:32 am
well, that answer my question
i have another, what would be our only obligation, to work? or to do the things you like? what if someone decides not to work, just to sit around and scratch his head? what would we do with him? how can we punish him, what if he sent his son to work? you know like the little guys that are on the streets asking for money...what would be our reaction to those things... and also what are our rights? who can protect us from the big bad neighbor
well.

many people start to disagree here. my conception of a socialist society is a society governed by democratic workers' assemblies. i think every individual area will find a way to deal with this. most people will work, that is for sure--historically, in stateless societies (think about very old primitive societies, or even today in some african communities where the state still hasnt developed) most people work without really any state compulsion. people who wont work would be ostracized socially, because i mean nobody likes people that do not work!

second i think most people will be able to make work out of what they like, there will be some cases where this doesnt applies but, that type of unwanted work could be spread throughout the community. if i like to do cars, for example, i can do cars and if another person likes to do pants, he can do pants. if he wants a car he could simply take it from me in the same way that if i want pants, i could take them from them.

finally, there is no such thing as "rights", they where invented by people. i think that in a revolutionary and posrevolutionary period most people would be armed and people themselves would protect their interests. if there was some asshole trying to take over there would be many people already armed.

also, we dont really know how a communist society will look. we can guess about some things, given the dynamics of current class society, but we cannot know the precise stuff. marxian socialist is scientific in the sense that marx didnt create blue prints that he expected people would jusT FOLLOW THEM LINE TO LINE, because history doesnt works in that way. systems develop from material circumstance--capitalism didnt exist just because a few people suddenly realized HEY WE SHOULD SCEW OTHER PEOPLE, it just evolved through hundred of years. utopian socialists were the ones that would craft an intricate, hypothetical society and expect that some smart guys would one dbuild it.

hence why marxism is "scientific"

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

Our goal is to "win over" the masses not bureaucratic officials.

But a chief of police, if he was a closet fellow-traveller, could call off the cops.

[lentejos]

but thats were the problems rely, why would i have to give this selfish and stupid guy food and water and cloth if he ain't working, he isn't contributing to society and we still going to take care of him?..... then everyone would try to do these thing, then as marmot say we would all try to be "artist" where the only things we would do is to write or play music. we would create a class that is lower than the proletariat but with the same rights... we would create a laziness society

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

But they wouldn't have electricity. They wouldn't have TV. They would have only the basics. Mind you it would be very rare for someone to refuse work in a society without the problems we have now.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 01:48 am
but thats were the problems rely, why would i have to give this selfish and stupid guy food and water and cloth if he ain't working, he isn't contributing to society and we still going to take care of him?..... then everyone would try to do these thing, then as marmot say we would all try to be "artist" where the only things we would do is to write or play music. we would create a class that is lower than the proletariat but with the same rights... we would create a laziness society
lol no.

as i said before most people arent that lazy, and social acceptance would probably launch them to work.

i think many people would even deny their services to them if they dont work, so they could actually STARVE for just being lazy.

i dont exactly condone the WITHDRAWING OF FOOD from lazy people, but i think it would be something that would naturally happen, like in any past egalitarian society.

and communism is a classless society, there wont be any class-

communists themselves are lazy people, we want to work less and have more!

[Rawthentic]

Because workers have created all the wealth, so it belongs to us.

[lentejos]

i don't say that is good to WITHDRAW food from the lazy people but it will be fun how you see him working after to day starvation

i have another question what would we do in case we have people with out arms or legs, or that are in a wheel chair? they have different needs than ours...what would be a good proposition for them and us?

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

i have another question what would we do in case we have people with out arms or legs, or that are in a wheel chair? they have different needs than ours...what would be a good proposition for them and us?
They deserve all the care and attention they need and if they can't work they don't have to. Mind you if I were paralysed I would still try to find something to do, like writing or something studious.

By the way, your English is quite good.

[lentejos]

By the way, your English is quite good.

thanks



there is no such thing as "rights", they where invented by people. i think that in a revolutionary and posrevolutionary period most people would be armed and people themselves would protect their interests. if there was some asshole trying to take over there would be many people already armed.

but this will lead to chaos in which "similar" people will fight for a cause....because some friend got killed by a white guy or because he got insulted by a Asian guy.... we need some kind of protection for the weak, or for the minority...




if i like to do cars, for example, i can do cars and if another person likes to do pants, he can do pants. if he wants a car he could simply take it from me in the same way that if i want pants, i could take them from them.


But how can we give away a car for a couple of pants? if there isn't money then will have to value something else, like dedication, i don't think that the guy that makes pants would work as hard as the one that make a car.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 02:26 am

By the way, your English is quite good.

thanks



there is no such thing as "rights", they where invented by people. i think that in a revolutionary and posrevolutionary period most people would be armed and people themselves would protect their interests. if there was some asshole trying to take over there would be many people already armed.





if i like to do cars, for example, i can do cars and if another person likes to do pants, he can do pants. if he wants a car he could simply take it from me in the same way that if i want pants, i could take them from them.




but this will lead to chaos in which "similar" people will fight for a cause....because some friend got killed by a white guy or because he got insulted by a Asian guy.... we need some kind of protection for the weak, or for the minority...


not really

most people in switzerland have guns, you dont see MASS MURDER do you?


But how can we give away a car for a couple of pants? if there isn't money then will have to value something else, like dedication, i don't think that the guy that makes pants would work as hard as the one that make a car.

its called a gift economy.

i produce cars, i dont ask for really anything in exchange.

he produces pants he doesnt asks really for anything in exchange.

he takes what he wants from me, and i take what i want from him. similarly, a doctor takes what he wants from me and i take what i want from him.

its not bartering, i.e. exchanging two eggs for pants.

its gift economy.

[( R )evolution]

In the revolution I believe we will spare the people who recount there ways and do not put up a fight but anyway who resists will be shot in the head.

[lentejos]

not really

most people in switzerland have guns, you dont see MASS MURDER do you?

i dont see any mass murder because they have some law protecting the weak, we need a law and who will enforce it? would we have any kind of police?


its gift economy.

could you explain this please? if its gift economy then could i do a door or a paint or a book and exchanged it for a car? or could i take anything with out expecting nobody to tell me something about it? if i do a car could some one just come take it and not give me anything in exchange? do you think people will like these idea?

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 02:44 am

not really

most people in switzerland have guns, you dont see MASS MURDER do you?




its gift economy.


i dont see any mass murder because they have some law protecting the weak, we need a law and who will enforce it? would we have any kind of police?

thousands of workers where armed in the anarchist-socialist regions of catalonia in 1936. you didnt see COMPLETE CHAOS in it.


read homage to catalonia.



could you explain this please? if its gift economy then could i do a door or a paint or a book and exchanged it for a car? or could i take anything with out expecting nobody to tell me something about it? if i do a car could some one just come take it and not give me anything in exchange? do you think people will like these idea?

its not about "liking them" or "not", its something that will need to happen if civiliztion wants to survive and if we dont want to have a MASS HOLOCAUST.

secondly, its not a new idea... gift economy was taken from societies who already practiced it. countless indigenous communities would practice it.

[lentejos]

thousands of workers where armed in the anarchist-socialist regions of catalonia in 1936. you didnt see COMPLETE CHAOS in it.


i haven't read the book of homage to catalonia but i guess they were fighting for the same cause, they didn't have to shoot the guy next to him because they were fighting against the same problem. we know for sure there are some issues with many guy out there that they have some mental issue... take rapers, or neo-nazi people who there only interest is to cause harm, well I'm not sure about the neo-nazi but you get the point we really need a system that give us protection, as i just said it we can't just kill people because they called me an asshole

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

I think that as crime becomes unnecessary and the millitary industries are scrapped to make room for further development of humanitarian causes (if the whole world wishes to follow this line) guns will slowly start to melt away.

[lentejos]

I think that as crime becomes unnecessary and the millitary industries are scrapped to make room for further development of humanitarian causes (if the whole world wishes to follow this line) guns will slowly start to melt away.

i hope it, i hope it does

by the way can you see my picture i just put one but it doesn't show it?

[Janus]

But a chief of police, if he was a closet fellow-traveller, could call off the cops.
Maybe temporarily but he couldn't do it in the long term especially since it is in his best interests to oppose any threat to the state.

[Janus]

i dont see any mass murder because they have some law protecting the weak, we need a law and who will enforce it? would we have any kind of police?
There are still laws but it is the people themselves who will enforce them. And no, there will be no police like the one we have today. Instead, a people's militia will do fine.


we know for sure there are some issues with many guy out there that they have some mental issue... take rapers, or neo-nazi people who there only interest is to cause harm, well I'm not sure about the neo-nazi but you get the point we really need a system that give us protection, as i just said it we can't just kill people because they called me an asshole
Well, those with mental issues should receive help but seriously deranged people will still be dealt with by the community. There are still laws, there is still protection but they are now part of a mass organized system.


by the way can you see my picture i just put one but it doesn't show it?
Try re-uploading it. If it doesn't work then it means that the board can't accept that kind of file.