id cards

[7189]

What do people think of the idea of id cards in Britain? I think they'd be damn good. I don't know why everyone is so dead set against them. They'd solve the illegal immigrants crisis, they'd stop all these rogue traders, and they'd save a lot of administerial costs. All they are is a photo, a name and a government stamp...and a small entry into a database.

People are so demanding of their governments yet at the same time are unwilling to concede the smallest of personal details.

[StartToday]

Well I don't live in the UK, but if I did I would fight the ID cards. Why? Because it's not necessarily even the card itself that poses the problem. It's more of a "if we let them do this, what will it lead to" thing. Like how in the US they want to make it the law to have your pets microchipped. Hmm... what might they propose next? Microchipping kids so they don't get lost? Sure, why not. And then microchipping criminals. And then everyone.

[apathy maybe]

I don't get it, is this a joke? If it is a joke it is a very poor one.

Assuming that the basic ID card is a photo, a name and a government stamp (along with that small entry in that small database). Do you think that it is hard to fake? Do you think it is hard to buy a real card, with fake information? Do you honestly think this will stop illegal immigration?

The only way to stop illegal immigration with this is to,
1) make it compulsory to carry at all times
2) give police wide powers to stop, demand the card and detain if people don't have the card
3) increase police by a huge number so as to actually achieve something like this.

Do you honestly want a police state? Papers please. What you forgot them, 200 pound fine for you laddy. Oh, and we are going to detain you until we can verify your identity, just in case you are an illegal immigrant.


You claim to be a socialist, yet you seem to want a socialist state which doesn't allow free movement of people. Umm...

There are various other flaws with your claims and the proposal, but I'll let others point them out.

[Luís Henrique]

I have an ID card. And, no, I don't live in a police State. :rolleyes:

It is rather irrelevant. Neither it will solve any problems as implied in the OP, nor it will bring 1984 upon you.

Opposing them as a matter of political principles rather seems "libertarian" paranoia.

Luís Henrique

[apathy maybe]

The original poster was arguing that ID cards would "solve the illegal immigrants crisis, they'd stop all these rogue traders, and they'd save a lot of administerial costs".

I was simply showing that to solve the "immigrants crisis" you would need a police state.

The fact that there are a variety of other problems with having centralised government databases has nothing to do with that argument. It won't bring 1984 upon us straight away, but the introduction of such an ID card could lead to a scenario where you are forced to always carry that ID with you, where the police, health officials, transport authorities, school administrators and others all have access to the same information in the same database.

That said, it doesn't have to lead to that, but it could lead to that. And if you don't see a problem with the police being able to see your school record or your medical history, well I guess I don't want to be part of your movement.

[Coggeh]

Dont we have ID cards anyway ? im not following you .....

[An archist]

why oppose id cards?
well, because one thing leads to another, in Belgium we've had id cards for several years, now they introduced a new line of id cards, those with RFID chips, see where this is going?

[Resistencia]

In the Netherlands, where I live, you are supposed to have a ID card when you're 12 years and older. It is prohibited to go on the street without your ID card.
If a cop catches you without one, you get a €50 fine :wacko:

Police state? Nooooo.... :rolleyes:

[StartToday]

Originally posted by An [email protected] 11, 2007 06:30 pm
why oppose id cards?
well, because one thing leads to another, in Belgium we've had id cards for several years, now they introduced a new line of id cards, those with RFID chips, see where this is going?
Exactly my point.

[luxemburg89]

stop illegal immigrants? that sounds like it was written by a daily mail columnist or something. I'm not having a go BUT illegal immigrants are generally running from starvation, suffering and war. It is our duty to help them. If you wanna stay British fine, retain the 'theyr illegal therefore theyr bad' sentament, ok fine. I dont care about Britain anymore, its the most hypocritical nation in the world - i'm not British, I'm internationalist - and i hope the majority of people on this site are too. ID cards are a bad idea - they will increase the anti-muslim, anti-immigrant, anti-anything not fucking British climate we have in this bloody country. If we have these cards - enjoy walking round a city after realising you absent-mindedly forgot it.

[WP_Joel]

Anyone so willing to give up their civil liberties do not deserve them at all.

[Coggeh]

True.Any outrageous laws on i.d cards in Eire?

[The Feral Underclass]

Defending Anonymity (http://flag.blackened.net/af/ace/anon.html): This is a pamphlet put out by the Anarchist Federation that presents the argument against ID cards, explains the laws behind it and suggests action to be taken.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Revolutionaries don't refer to undocumented workers as "illegal immigrants." To us, no worker is "illegal," and all working people have the right to full citizenship, everywhere.

This is liberal (bordering on right) bullshit.

Read this for more on the revolutionary outlook on immigration. (http://freepeoplesmovement.org/fpm/page.php?182)

I have to ask 7189, as a "democratic socialist," do you want to see capitalism overthrown?

[Coggeh]

ya , is 7189 a social democrat or is he a socialist by means of the ballot box ....

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 11, 2007 10:33 pm
Revolutionaries don't refer to undocumented workers as "illegal immigrants." To us, no worker is "illegal," and all working people have the right to full citizenship, everywhere.

This is liberal (bordering on right) bullshit.

Read this for more on the revolutionary outlook on immigration. (http://freepeoplesmovement.org/fpm/page.php?182)

I have to ask 7189, as a "democratic socialist," do you want to see capitalism overthrown?
^ditto. Also, we should oppose each and every action an imperialist government does (aside from pro-worker actions which are 1 per millenium) on the grounds of anti-imperialism

[Kami]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 11, 2007 10:33 pm
This is liberal (bordering on right) bullshit.
Excuse my ignorance, but how is restricting freedom of movement liberal?



^ditto. Also, we should oppose each and every action an imperialist government does (aside from pro-worker actions which are 1 per millenium) on the grounds of anti-imperialism

As for that, it seems a little odd. Even this shambles of a government gets stuff right sometimes (like the proposed amendment of copyright law to allow transfering between media)

[Coggeh]

ugh ......i'm not quite sure by what he meant by it .. but i think he was trying to get the point across that "liberal" is like being a democrat .. its bordering on right if not far right itself. it isnt liberal as in the way we see liberal but it is in the way 80% of clueless people see it ...... :unsure: i think


-Cogz

[Question everything]

ID cards, fight the immigration problem, fight rogue trading? are you serious? everything under gouvernement survaillence? is it just me or do I smell a 4th reich?

[Janus]

Dont we have ID cards anyway ?
Some countries have federal ID cards while others like France, UK, and the US don't.

Why oppose ID cards? Because the only ones who will benefit from it are the government who will be able to exercise a greater deal of control and the corporations who stand to gain a large amount of profits from it.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Excuse my ignorance, but how is restricting freedom of movement liberal?

It's bourgeois liberalism to pretend to be "leftist" and on the side of workers, while opposing the so-called "the illegal immigrants crisis."

[7189]

Unless you have something to hide...what's the problem? Obviously a card with your details on isn't going to result in you being tracked all your lives by a satellite...it's just a record of your presence in the country.

Illegal immigration IS a problem in this country. It's playing havoc with the economy. There's a whole workforce there operating illegally. Also there are grave social matters. There are little pockets where people are completely unassimilated into British society, where barbarous practices are carried out like prostitution and abuse, where people don't even speak English yet claim benefit from the state. I'm sorry but it is a big issue. Let's not forget racism and terrorism, two key issues closely linked with illegal immigrants. With I.D cards we'd be able to achieve an estimate of the number of illegal immigrants in this country, thereby enabling us to tackle these issues with more ease.

This lack of assimilation and integration has resulted in alienation and racism and a divided country...which is not only rife with hatred but also culturally barren and disenchanted. Socialism cannot prosper in such a climate I'm afraid.

[Question everything]

*cough* big brother? *cough* and the immigration is only a problem because the bourgeous make it one... if they were "legal" immigrants they would be doing good for the economy, but because they are "illegal", they work in lousy jobs paid less than minimum wage... also who doesn't have something to hide... if this started in America (which has been mentioned before), along with the "three strikes" rule and the patriot act... everybody but the rich would be in jail for the rest of their lives doing prison labour for the rich...

[Coggeh]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 09:50 pm
With I.D cards we'd be able to achieve an estimate of the number of illegal immigrants in this country, thereby enabling us to tackle these issues with more ease.

This lack of assimilation and integration has resulted in alienation and racism and a divided country...which is not only rife with hatred but also culturally barren and disenchanted. Socialism cannot prosper in such a climate I'm afraid.
Isnt that the same argument Stormfront use ..... that controlling imigration and not race mixing will make everything ok .....I most sincerely question your ideology ,(once again) are you sure your not a social democrat ..... :huh:


-Cogz

[7189]

None of you know my ideology. Nor do I to be honest. Anyone with a set ideology at my age is either deluded or insane if you ask me. I say I'm a social democrat because I think that's the way forward...I'm not a hundred percent certain of it though.

I'm just a bit pissed off with this country that's all. So much hatred everywhere. I really don't know what the solution is.

People don't show respect for the country. Look at all the rubbish everywhere. Look at all the crime. The youth is culturally barren. Chavs everywhere. So much ignorance and racism. There's no collective sentiment.

Capitalism rules the land. Nearly unrestrained, it has permeated into the conscious of this generation, rendering it barren, even sociopathic.

People from other countries come here seeking refuge but meet with this wasteland...it's no wonder they turn to their own communities and don't assimilate. This itself breeds hate.

I reckon a move towards a more state system would help. Get rid of the laissez-faire tendencies of this land. Maybe ID Cards is a step in the right direction.
I don't know. I'm just here to discuss that's all.

Cogz, the problem is we aren't mixing. This is a divided land. In so many ways. There's absolutely nothing socialist about it. So much hatred. It really makes me sick.

[insurgent]

http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=62488


I dont know if you've read that topic or not but ID cards get discussed.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by 7189+--> (7189)I say I'm a social democrat because I think that's the way forward...I'm not a hundred percent certain of it though.[/b]

Forward to what end? State-capitalism?


Originally posted by 7189+--> (7189)People don't show respect for the country. [/b]

Why should they?


Originally posted by 7189

Look at all the rubbish everywhere. Look at all the crime.

Look at all the capitalism!


Originally posted by 7189

People from other countries come here seeking refuge but meet with this wasteland...it's no wonder they turn to their own communities and don't assimilate.

How are refugees not 'assimiliating'?

What are people meant to be assimiliating into exactly?


Originally posted by 7189

This itself breeds hate.

Nah, what 'breeds hate' is the idea of a national culture which everyone must be 'assimiliated' into.


[email protected]

I reckon a move towards a more state system would help.

How could a more powerful state help solve the problems?


7189

Maybe ID Cards is a step in the right direction.


Its a step towards a police-state, nothing more.

[Tatarin]

I say I'm a social democrat because I think that's the way forward...I'm not a hundred percent certain of it though.

Social democracy was, originally, a system of reforms. They believed that society could be changed into a socialist society by reforms. If you believe this, then you are a "true" social democrat. However, as many here know, social democracy abandoned this process and instead stopped at some social reforms in a capitalist system. A good example may be higher taxes to support the poor and those who do not have a job (welfare) - such as the Scandinavian countries.

In other words, social democracy is pretty much dead.


People don't show respect for the country.

Should anyone respect any country? Sure, some countries may be better than others, but all in all, countries make up borders - they divide people, they are basically corporations themselves, with citizens being their employees. You won't see any lines or names on the earth from space...


Look at all the crime.

Of course. If you have the abilities to do something, trading, or cheating, or stealing etc, but not the education to be anything except a janitor (because you or your family didn't have the money), then, would you rather sit on the streets or actually try to survive? Capitalism does this. If you don't have the money, then too bad for you. Change capitalism, and crime would be greatly reduced.


So much ignorance and racism.

The more, the better. So long we don't unite against capitalism.


There's no collective sentiment.

How can there ever be in capitalism? If there would, then capitalism would be dissolved.


People from other countries come here seeking refuge but meet with this wasteland...

Of course many do. There is this saying, the "myth of the west". Many in the former Soviet states, and in many other parts of the world, believe that if they could shape their countries like the west, all problems would be gone. Evidently, this is not so.


it's no wonder they turn to their own communities and don't assimilate. This itself breeds hate.

Of course they don't assimilate if nobody let them assimilate. They immigrate, but quickly discover that people don't like them - even if they are highly educated. They start their own communities with themselves because society, based on capitalism, divides immigrants and natives.


Maybe ID Cards is a step in the right direction.

State and ID cards are not the same thing. A state is in place to govern people by the very same people. If people do not want a government, then there must be no government. ID cards is a method to identify people - a kind of weapon against the people.

In order for a good society to exist, people must be able to choose to make a "crime" (as defined by the majority of people). Many crimes are bad - like killing, raping, racism and so on. But some things, who seem like crime today, are on the contrary a form of protest. Like abortion. Like downloading movies and music from the internet. The French, Russian and American revolutions were also crimes - but they in turn overthrew feudalism and created a better system.

If any organization, a state, corporation or society, can put tags on everybody and keep records on anything, then they can easily make a list on what things people can do and what they can't. Eventually, that list will grow shorter. People should encourage less control by any government and corporation in order to be able to eventually overthrow the current system.

If everything is controlled, and every people tagged, then the ruling organs can easily remove the crucial elements that will sooner or later be the start of revolution.