Lenin on Islam

[Mikhail Frunze]

A reference to Chicherin’s letter to the R.C.P.(B.) Central Committee, received by Lenin, in which Chicherin proposed that a special circular, urging the need for tact and care not to offend the Moslems’ religious feelings in conducting anti-religious propaganda, should be sent to the Party organisations of the republics and regions with a Moslem population. Chicherin referred to a speech by N. N. Narimanov as a model of the tactful approach to Moslems. In Chicherin’s letter Lenin underscored the passages proposing the publication of the circular and characterising Narimanov’s speech (Central Party Archives of the Institute of Marxism-Leninism of the C.P.S.U. Central Committee).
http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1921/mar/31.htm

I think we should faithfully follow the instructions of Comrade Lenin and avoid offending Moslems.

But at the same time, should Islam come into conflict with socialism like it did in Albania or Afghanistan, it must be mercilessly smashed.

And I supported the Serbs in the Yugoslav wars because they fought to preserve a progressive, socialist Yugoslavia whereas the Muslims were supported by imperialists and their theocratic mujahideen surrogates. And I'm not going to be sensitive to the opinion of Muslims given the murderous legacy of Turkish Muslim imperialism in the Balkans and Moorish imperialism in Spain for which there should be reparations.

[Entrails Konfetti]

:blink:

Did I just see that?

[UndergroundConnexion]

One Name : Malcolm X

Think about this

[Knight of Cydonia]

huh????

do you really think that the Serb are fought to preserve a progressive, socialist Yugoslavia? duh....

[Severian]

Originally posted by Mikhail [email protected] 11, 2007 12:12 am
And I supported the Serbs in the Yugoslav wars because they fought to preserve a progressive, socialist Yugoslavia
In other words, you support anything which you see fitting with Kremlin foreign policy, and oppose anything which you see as opposed to it. Hello, the USSR doesn't even exist anymore.

But if you could dig up that Narimanov speech that might be interesting. And yes, it's necessary to be tactical, which sometimes means tactful, in dealing with people's religious sensibilities. Especially if you're coming from another culture or nationality; you don't want to be perceived as the continuation of chauvinism or of the hostility of one religious group towards another.

Much less to be that continuation, which is a real danger. Actually happened in Yugoslavia, for example.

[Mikhail Frunze]

In other words, you support anything which you see fitting with Kremlin foreign policy, and oppose anything which you see as opposed to it. Hello, the USSR doesn't even exist anymore.

The Kremlin had nothing to do in influencing my stance. The Serbs fought to preserve Yugoslavia whereas the Hrvati fought to establish a neo-Ustaše state. The mujahideen fought in Bosnia to establish a caliphate.

[Eleutherios]

Whether we like it or not, we are going to have to offend Muslims at some point. As materialists, we have to inform them that the world is much older than their Qur'an states and that our species evolved through a process of natural selection that did not involve their non-existent deity Allah. We are going to have to inform them that the Sharia law that their Qur'an proscribes cannot be the foundation of the legal code of a communist society, because it is cruel, barbaric, sexist, homophobic, and oppressive.

One has a choice between the Qur'an and communism; one cannot have both. The more one embraces communism, the more one has to reject fundamental principles of the Qur'an.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

I think we should faithfully follow the instructions of Comrade Lenin and avoid offending Moslems.

But at the same time, should Islam come into conflict with socialism like it did in Albania or Afghanistan, it must be mercilessly smashed.


I fully agree with that course of action.

In a Muslim-majority country, it is a BAD idea to fuck around with their religious beliefs. At least not directly.

The best way to destroy the Islamic influence on people's minds is to go step by step. Call for secularism first. Slowly drive out religious teachings from schools. Fight for women's rights.

Step by step.

To call openly for atheism in some conservative Muslim societies is kind of like saying "I'm sick of life, please come shoot me."

[Spirit of Spartacus]

Whether we like it or not, we are going to have to offend Muslims at some point. As materialists, we have to inform them that the world is much older than their Qur'an states and that our species evolved through a process of natural selection that did not involve their non-existent deity Allah.

That's the problem.

It is somewhat difficult for you to imagine the sheer amount of faith which people place in their religious beliefs here in the "Islamic" world.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for materialism, comrade, but trust me, you can't make materialists of Muslims by just walking up to them and attacking stuff that they're prepared to die for.

There is a more round-about way of achieveing all of the stuff you mention above.

For one, encourage a secular, scientific education, and try convincing them that religion is a personal matter which shouldn't be brought into politics. That's the line that I have to follow with Muslim people around me.

When you encourage a scientific education, and try to sideline religious teaching (while at the same time affirming your belief in freedom of worship), it naturally allows people to think more freely...it allows them to think outside that Islamic box.



We are going to have to inform them that the Sharia law that their Qur'an proscribes cannot be the foundation of the legal code of a communist society, because it is cruel, barbaric, sexist, homophobic, and oppressive.

Well, we could do that, but it would be a shortcut to political isolation. We might as well shut ourselves up in a cave or someplace.

No comrade, this won't work.

A better way to sell this very idea to a Muslim worker or peasant would be:

"Your religion is yours. My religion is mine. It becomes difficult when we try to impose our beliefs on the state. Don't you think it would be great if everyone could worship whatever they wanted, and the state didn't intervene with their religious freedom?"


One has a choice between the Qur'an and communism; one cannot have both. The more one embraces communism, the more one has to reject fundamental principles of the Qur'an.

Comrade, I'm sure you agree that communism is not something that we can achieve in a single blow.

Society progresses towards socialism, its an organic process. Instead of directly attacking the Koran, it would be a better idea to try and sideline it by offering an alternative scientific education.

But trust me, the Muslim society that I live in will hang on to its religious illusions for at least another two generations even AFTER we introduce a fully secular system of education.

Hang on, I'm not saying that we don't fight reactionary Islam. If reactionary Muslim extremists get in the way of a socialist revolution, by all means shove them out of the way by force.

But you must try to get along with the religious convictions of the oppressed classes of Muslim societies. At least for a while...

[norwegian commie]

Id just like to point out to you that Islam is not a one sided religion. Sharia laws is not a widespread law, hidjab is not as much of a widespread pheromone as one would think. Even in Palestine you would rarely see religious clothing like hidjab, or especially niqab. However as imperialism is raging in Palestine and other nations under Islam, extremism is growing. But there are many muslims that recjevts the parts of the q'uran that is the most extreme, like hidjab, sharia ext..

But yes we must also criticize that religion for its lacks and faults. I personally belive that religion will die if we accomplish a successful communist society.

[Vargha Poralli]

More over to my knowledge both Burqa and Hijab are never mentioned in Quaran or any "dress code" and "beard code" etc.It is just mentioned in some Hadiths which really varies from soem sects to another sects.

Regardless we better don't mess with Religion in general whether Protestant or Catholic etc. We better work to abolish the material conditions that enables religion to gain power and religion will become an artifact of the past times to future generations.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

More over to my knowledge both Burqa and Hijab are never mentioned in Quaran or any "dress code" and "beard code" etc.It is just mentioned in some Hadiths which really varies from soem sects to another sects.

That's essentially correct.

The beard and the burka (full face-veil) are not enjoined by the Koran. As for the Hijab (head-scarf), that too is not mentioned directly.
Instead, the Koran tells both men and women to wear a "modest" garment.

But whatever, this is not the issue.

Islam is a reactionary force in the long-run, and it must be smashed. If global imperialism places us communists a position where we have to work with reactionary Islamists to fight a greater oppression (i.e. imperialism), then so be it.

But our loyalty is ONLY to the Muslim masses, not to the reactionary faith which they follow.

It would be politically immature to directly attack this faith, but in the long-run, we have to drive it out and replace it with scientific inquiry.

[Lamanov]

Originally posted by Mikhail [email protected] 11, 2007 06:12 am
And I supported the Serbs in the Yugoslav wars because they fought to preserve a progressive, socialist Yugoslavia whereas the Muslims were supported by imperialists and their theocratic mujahideen surrogates.

Serbs did not fight to preserve "socialist Yugoslavia". They fought (under the command of nationalist leaders, of course, for their interests) to remain in domain of all-Serb national territory and political body.

I don't want to burst you bubbles but most of "nostalgists" today for the old days can be found amongst Muslims (Bosniaks), usually in big Bosnian cities such as Sarajevo and Tuzla.

[Hang Jebat]

i don't understand why some of you think that confrontation between Islam and communism exists....i am a 4th year student of economics and in my curriculum we have to study the history of Islamic economic thought....the idea of Marx and Ricardo was based on the views and thoughts of two prominent Muslim scholars,Ibn Khaldun and Nizam Al-Mulk....Ibn Khaldun is the one that viewed wealth as stored up value and give the world the labor theory of value 400 years before Ricardo was even born....Nizam Al-Mulk preached about social welfare and the class struggle long before Mr and Mrs Marx conceived their baby Karl....what i'm trying is that if Karl Marx knew the true teachings of islam...he will not be against it...

karl marx denounce religion because of the corruption of Christianity and the fact that christianity is against science....Islam,on the other hand embraces science and viewed it as a means to get closer and understand Allah better....many muslim scholar like ibn sina,al-razi,al-ghazali and al-khawarizmi were inspired after reading the qur'an...

the moor were never a tyrannical ruler....if you read jean plaidy's book titled "the Spanish inquisition" you would know that the golden age of spain coincides with the moorish rule...at that time,Muslims,Christians,jews,Arabs and Spaniards live and existed peacefully...there were never religious or ethnic based oppression by the moors...the real tyrant were isabel,ferdinand and the inquisitors who killed millions of muslims and jews.....

i thought the leftist movement is all about freedom and the class struggle and against racial and religous profiling,ethnic-cleansing,genocide and racial hatred....what some of you have said is against the views of Marx and against what commandante che Guevara died for....

if some of you are wondering...i am a muslim....however where most of my brothers and sisters support capitalism...i am truly against it and shared the same view as the socialist and the communist....it is sad to see that the current climate of "lslamphobia" is affecting my leftist friends...and some of you is sounding more like them capitalist bastards...shame on you!!!

[Vargha Poralli]

Originally posted by Hang [email protected] 19, 2007 07:10 pm
i don't understand why some of you think that confrontation between Islam and communism exists....i am a 4th year student of economics and in my curriculum we have to study the history of Islamic economic thought....the idea of Marx and Ricardo was based on the views and thoughts of two prominent Muslim scholars,Ibn Khaldun and Nizam Al-Mulk....Ibn Khaldun is the one that viewed wealth as stored up value and give the world the labor theory of value 400 years before Ricardo was even born....Nizam Al-Mulk preached about social welfare and the class struggle long before Mr and Mrs Marx conceived their baby Karl....what i'm trying is that if Karl Marx knew the true teachings of islam...he will not be against it...

karl marx denounce religion because of the corruption of Christianity and the fact that christianity is against science....Islam,on the other hand embraces science and viewed it as a means to get closer and understand Allah better....many muslim scholar like ibn sina,al-razi,al-ghazali and al-khawarizmi were inspired after reading the qur'an...

the moor were never a tyrannical ruler....if you read jean plaidy's book titled "the Spanish inquisition" you would know that the golden age of spain coincides with the moorish rule...at that time,Muslims,Christians,jews,Arabs and Spaniards live and existed peacefully...there were never religious or ethnic based oppression by the moors...the real tyrant were isabel,ferdinand and the inquisitors who killed millions of muslims and jews.....

i thought the leftist movement is all about freedom and the class struggle and against racial and religous profiling,ethnic-cleansing,genocide and racial hatred....what some of you have said is against the views of Marx and against what commandante che Guevara died for....

if some of you are wondering...i am a muslim....however where most of my brothers and sisters support capitalism...i am truly against it and shared the same view as the socialist and the communist....it is sad to see that the current climate of "lslamphobia" is affecting my leftist friends...and some of you is sounding more like them capitalist bastards...shame on you!!!
I am not a born Muslim, an Atheist and agree with most of the things you have said comrade. Unfortunately Muslims today in Western World are generally associated with Osama Bin Laden and the propaganda mill is so effective that it had even affected some "communists" in the west.

Anyway Historical role of Islam (http://www.marxists.org/archive/roy/1939/historical-role-islam/index.htm) an article by Indian communist/Radical humanist M.N Roy could give another view of Islam.

[ComradeRed]

Ibn Khaldun is the one that viewed wealth as stored up value and give the world the labor theory of value 400 years before Ricardo was even born....Nizam Al-Mulk preached about social welfare and the class struggle long before Mr and Mrs Marx conceived their baby Karl....what i'm trying is that if Karl Marx knew the true teachings of islam...he will not be against it... And yet even before they, Mr. Aristotle began his work in Economics that Marx was inspired by; and the ancient greeks originated the idea of class struggle (at one point in the Republic, Socrates even mentions directly about the two camps [rich and poor] and how they were "constantly" at war with one another).

So what I'm wondering is whether or not Marx was really an ancient greek :rolleyes:

[Vargha Poralli]

Originally posted by ComradeRed
at one point in the Republic, Socrates

Correct me if I am wrong Republic was written by Plato ?

Anyway what Hang Jebat trying to say is that Islam is not as orthodox as it is portrayed by the western media.

[RedCommieBear]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 04:08 pm
And yet even before they, Mr. Aristotle began his work in Economics that Marx was inspired by; and the ancient greeks originated the idea of class struggle (at one point in the Republic, Socrates even mentions directly about the two camps [rich and poor] and how they were "constantly" at war with one another).

So what I'm wondering is whether or not Marx was really an ancient greek :rolleyes:
Precisely. Marx didn't create class struggle, he just applied a name to a concept that has been known to humanity for millions of years.

[jaycee]

what you say about islam being for science is certainly true of early islam, it was indeed very advanced in terms of its appliction of science and rational thought. In fact in the ancient muslim cities they used to hold meetings between all the various religions of the time (and athiests,) in which no reference to holy scripts could be made, becausse they realised that this would kill rational debate.

However modern day islam tnds not to be as bothered with rational debate if the science disagrees with the holy book.

[Hang Jebat]

That is the current problem of today's Muslim......they trapped in the rhetoric that was created by their own enemy.....The suicide bombers for an example....maybe they were led into a distorted path and some will say that they're backs were against the wall... however if you want to detonate yourself don't do it in a public place where there is civilians and children...do it in your enemy's military base or police precincts. They think by doing that they will solve their problems....that is how brainless people will think!! The only way to succeed is by working hard,gaining as much knowledge as possible and capturing the economic and the business aspects of your country.....although i hate them zionist jews bastards with all my heart for slaughtering my Palestinians brothers and sisters, they rebuild themselves after the holocaust(that i believe was OVERLY EXEGERRATED) with working extra hard to succeed in their endeavors, mastering knowledge and science and through economics and business.

When a muslim gave views that is supporting communism and socialism to another muslim they will see the leftist-muslim as an Infidel or a Non-Believer....they never try to understands what communism and socialism is all about and only thinks that COMMUNISM IS BAD because they watch too many John Wayne movies....the majority of today's muslim are CAPITALIST PAR EXCELLENCE!!!!

The major problem of today's muslim is that they don't follow the real teachings of islam...for instance,they hardly read although the first verse of the qur'an commands them to read.....they don't read things that are unfimiliar to them...for instance my university's library(I live in a muslim country) don't have books written by Karl Marx,P.Sweezy and Ernest Mandel....what a shame....because of their extremist thoughts and attitudes their enemies are succeeding in painting a very ugly picture of them....Islam has replaced communism as the number one enemy of the West...

[Idola Mentis]

There's always a way out. Most currently fashionable interpretations of the Quran creates a deadlock for thought and possible lifeforms. Islamic theology needs a good shake-up. One way I've heard suggested is a looser interpretation of the scripture, something that's been done to soften the dead-hand-grip of christianity several times in the past

If you read islamic laws in original context, they were in fact a tremendous, even revolutionary, step forward for people's security and freedom. But asking if these ideas went as far as they could have at that time, stopping just short of completely dissolving middle eastern civilization, or if they stopped despite having the potential to go further is rather moot now.

In regard to modern contexts, Islamic law has coagulated, instead of continuing the program it started - one of increased freedom, security, equality, respect, modesty etc. But any interpretation which is able to read islamic scripture as a sign pointing forward rather than a finished map would have a hell of a time getting any attention today...

[RedCommieBear]

although i hate them zionist jews bastards

Jew bastards?


they rebuild themselves after the holocaust(that i believe was OVERLY EXEGERRATED)

There's no way it could have been exaggerated! Do you seriously contend that hundreds of thousands who managed to survive were all part of a grand Zionist conspiracy?

[Idola Mentis]

Europe has been dealing with the trauma of the holocaust of decades now, and still isn't really over it. I can see how it could appear exaggerated seen from outside europe. After all, the world wars were nothing worse than the horrors of colonialism, brought home.

How can there be any reason to hate jews, or even zionists, in general, for what some of them do? Should I hate all surgeons because some of them drink on the job?

[Hang Jebat]

maybe we should discuss this in a different topic...anyways...after much reading i do firmly believed that the holocaust was overly exegerrated by the zionist for their own gain...it is a fact that the zionist were one of the largest financial backer of the thrid reich....they have their reason to aid hitler financially to kill other jews...

I would like to state here that i have no hatred or whatsoever against the jewish people....as a muslim the majority of my prophet are jews..however i am STRONGLY AGAINST the zionist regime that currently are illegally occupying palestine and killing innocent palestinian lives....i also don't recognize israel as a sovereign state......

[Zero]

Originally posted by "Hang Jebat"
I would like to state here that i have no hatred or whatsoever against the jewish people....as a muslim the majority of my prophet are jews.Way to exercise your free will there buddy.

[Ihavenoidea]

Originally posted by Spirit of [email protected] 13, 2007 08:21 am


It would be politically immature to directly attack this faith, but in the long-run, we have to drive it out and replace it with scientific inquiry.
In essence I really do feel we have to drive it out.


The religion, in essence, uses itself to justify its followers actions. I do not think communism will stand for it.

Watching a women getting beat by her husband/father/boyfriend/brother and then not being able to do anything about it because of accusations of intolerance. perhaps then the muslim peopel will riot andwe will have to take them down. That is just a scenario. Nothing more. An extreamly plausiable scenario. And because muslims are KNOWN to be extreamly ..... 'sensitive' (lmao) to any kind of what they feel to be opression of their culture.

And ultimately their culture conflics with communism.

And yeah.. some of the koran is revolutionary. but the rest is pure shit. Please see the Islam and islamophobia thread for links, quotes movies and other things i posted supporting this statment.

[LebaneseCommunistParty]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 02:53 am
Whether we like it or not, we are going to have to offend Muslims at some point. As materialists, we have to inform them that the world is much older than their Qur'an states and that our species evolved through a process of natural selection that did not involve their non-existent deity Allah. We are going to have to inform them that the Sharia law that their Qur'an proscribes cannot be the foundation of the legal code of a communist society, because it is cruel, barbaric, sexist, homophobic, and oppressive.

One has a choice between the Qur'an and communism; one cannot have both. The more one embraces communism, the more one has to reject fundamental principles of the Qur'an.
Even supposed "extremist" groups like hezbollah do not promote shariah rule. Islam is much more flexible than you think. Many of them believe in separration of church and state. Establish a communist state, but assure them it will not interfere with their religious duties as long as they do not interfere with the state, and there will be absolutely no problems.

[Ihavenoidea]

oh really?

Stop every muslim man from beting their wife or females in their family, let the women take off their headscarves, Give females more then just 2% of pollitical office, stop assasinating women who want to break away from the muslim faith, stop assasinating people who do not want to be muslim and want to publish books or movies aboutt he horrors of the islamic faith.

And then it will be as flexible as hell! Then we can talk about having Islam in a communist society. lol.

Marijuanarchy, nice post.

AND BTW: Did you not read a thing MA posted? Ultimatly it does conflict with communism. Read the post I made before you. Communism isnt going to stand for some punks fucking up human rights and then hiding behind a religious book or right. It just wont happen. Ever. We are not going to pave way for you. You dont get special treatment.

If islam conflicts with communism, then it is islams fault, Not communism. Communism wants to make it fair for everyone. Unfortunatly I do not see much fairness in Muslim states. Or human rights for that matter.

So like I said: Either change the way you guys live, or communsim isnt going to pave any gold brick way for you. And dont say "it is our culture tho" Because your culture is runed by your religion, just like your countries.


-Bella

[LebaneseCommunistParty]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 03:44 am
oh really?

Stop every muslim man from beting their wife or females in their family, let the women take off their headscarves, Give females more then just 2% of pollitical office, stop assasinating women who want to break away from the muslim faith, stop assasinating people who do not want to be muslim and want to publish books or movies aboutt he horrors of the islamic faith.

And then it will be as flexible as hell! Then we can talk about having Islam in a communist society. lol.

Marijuanarchy, nice post.

AND BTW: Did you not read a thing MA posted? Ultimatly it does conflict with communism. Read the post I made before you. Communism isnt going to stand for some punks fucking up human rights and then hiding behind a religious book or right. It just wont happen. Ever. We are not going to pave way for you. You dont get special treatment.

If islam conflicts with communism, then it is islams fault, Not communism. Communism wants to make it fair for everyone. Unfortunatly I do not see much fairness in Muslim states. Or human rights for that matter.

So like I said: Either change the way you guys live, or communsim isnt going to pave any gold brick way for you. And dont say "it is our culture tho" Because your culture is runed by your religion, just like your countries.


-Bella

Stop every muslim man from beting their wife or females in their family, let the women take off their headscarves,

Again that is a generalization. Most muslims in Lebanon do not even wear headscarves and none beat their wives. Saudi Arabia and Iran is a different story my freiend. I am not going to sit here and defend islam, because i do not care for religion. But here in Lebanon, the communist party enjoys the support of many islamic groups, and the communist party and hezbollah joined each other in calling a general strike against the american-backed gov't of Lebanon, for the common goal of anti imperialism. Communists are respected as extreme intellectuals throughout the muslim community here, and Ziad Rahabny one of the most respected musicians in lebanon is an active member of the communist party.

"What we would have liked is for our socialist brothers in Lebanon to fight against imperialism and Zionism shoulder to shoulder. This fight is not only our fight. It is the common fight of all those oppressed across the world. Don't forget that if the peoples of Palestine and Lebanon lose this war, this will mean the defeat of all the oppressed people of the world. In our fight against imperialism, the revolutionaries should also undertake a responsibility and should become, in the hearts of our people of Palestine and Lebanon," Leader of Hezbollah, Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah.

"Hasan Nasrallah: We salute the leaders and the peoples of Latin America. They have resisted the American bandits heroically and have been a source of moral strength for us. They are guiding the way for the oppressed peoples. Go and wonder around our streets..! You will witness how our people have embraced Chavez and Ernesto Che Guevara. Nearly in every house, you will come across posters of Che or Chavez.

What we are saying to our socialist friends who want fight together with us for fraternity and freedom is: Do not come at all if you are going to say "Religion is an opiate". We do not agree with this analysis. Here is the biggest proof of this in our streets with the pictures of Chavez, Che, Sadr and Khamenei together. These leaders are saluting our people in unison. So long as we respect your beliefs, and you respect ours, there is no imperialist power we cannot defeat!"

[Orange Juche]

Leninism is far more dangerous than Islam.

[Publius]

Did you honestly just say that no Muslims in Lebanon beat their wives? The fuck?

[Idola Mentis]

Aw, c'mon. Don't read people like the devil reads the bible. :) He probably meant that wife-beating is unlikely to be more common in Lebanon than anywhere else. At least islam isn't likely to be an important factor in any variation, one way or another.

While some people seem to think being religious require them to leave their brains at the door, that's a property of the people, not the religion in question. Islam can't be proven to be the cause of every evil ever perpetrated by muslims.

[Cheung Mo]

Originally posted by LebaneseCommunistParty+March 05, 2007 07:13 am--> (LebaneseCommunistParty @ March 05, 2007 07:13 am)
[email protected] 05, 2007 03:44 am
oh really?

Stop every muslim man from beting their wife or females in their family, let the women take off their headscarves, Give females more then just 2% of pollitical office, stop assasinating women who want to break away from the muslim faith, stop assasinating people who do not want to be muslim and want to publish books or movies aboutt he horrors of the islamic faith.

And then it will be as flexible as hell! Then we can talk about having Islam in a communist society. lol.

Marijuanarchy, nice post.

AND BTW: Did you not read a thing MA posted? Ultimatly it does conflict with communism. Read the post I made before you. Communism isnt going to stand for some punks fucking up human rights and then hiding behind a religious book or right. It just wont happen. Ever. We are not going to pave way for you. You dont get special treatment.

If islam conflicts with communism, then it is islams fault, Not communism. Communism wants to make it fair for everyone. Unfortunatly I do not see much fairness in Muslim states. Or human rights for that matter.

So like I said: Either change the way you guys live, or communsim isnt going to pave any gold brick way for you. And dont say "it is our culture tho" Because your culture is runed by your religion, just like your countries.


-Bella

Stop every muslim man from beting their wife or females in their family, let the women take off their headscarves,

Again that is a generalization. Most muslims in Lebanon do not even wear headscarves and none beat their wives. Saudi Arabia and Iran is a different story my freiend. I am not going to sit here and defend islam, because i do not care for religion. But here in Lebanon, the communist party enjoys the support of many islamic groups, and the communist party and hezbollah joined each other in calling a general strike against the american-backed gov't of Lebanon, for the common goal of anti imperialism. Communists are respected as extreme intellectuals throughout the muslim community here, and Ziad Rahabny one of the most respected musicians in lebanon is an active member of the communist party.

"What we would have liked is for our socialist brothers in Lebanon to fight against imperialism and Zionism shoulder to shoulder. This fight is not only our fight. It is the common fight of all those oppressed across the world. Don't forget that if the peoples of Palestine and Lebanon lose this war, this will mean the defeat of all the oppressed people of the world. In our fight against imperialism, the revolutionaries should also undertake a responsibility and should become, in the hearts of our people of Palestine and Lebanon," Leader of Hezbollah, Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah.

"Hasan Nasrallah: We salute the leaders and the peoples of Latin America. They have resisted the American bandits heroically and have been a source of moral strength for us. They are guiding the way for the oppressed peoples. Go and wonder around our streets..! You will witness how our people have embraced Chavez and Ernesto Che Guevara. Nearly in every house, you will come across posters of Che or Chavez.

What we are saying to our socialist friends who want fight together with us for fraternity and freedom is: Do not come at all if you are going to say "Religion is an opiate". We do not agree with this analysis. Here is the biggest proof of this in our streets with the pictures of Chavez, Che, Sadr and Khamenei together. These leaders are saluting our people in unison. So long as we respect your beliefs, and you respect ours, there is no imperialist power we cannot defeat!" [/b]
You had me up until Khomeini. Khomeini and his cronies butchered their leftist allies of the Iranian revolution once they had the power to do so.

Mossadegh was a devout Muslim and an enemy of fundamentalism, unchecked capitalism, dictatorship, and Western colonialism. He would have built a far better Iran and a far better Middle East than either the Shah or the Ayatollahs had those worthless fucks Churchill and Eisenhower not worked with their cronies in the Iranian military and other reactionary segments to overthrow him in Operation Ajax.

[вор в законе]

Funny thing is that Iran's Communist Party during that time was against Mossadegh, especially when he tried to nationalize Iran's gas, because the Soviets had gas deals with the previous Shah which they didn't want to be disrupted. Mossadegh himself, though nationalist, was quite shocked when he saw the Communists following Kremlin's line and being against his nationalizations.


You had me up until Khomeini. Khomeini and his cronies butchered their leftist allies of the Iranian revolution once they had the power to do so.

Khamenei and Khomeini are differen't people. Though there is no big difference really since Khamenei is simply the one who has replaced Khomenei as the religious leader of Iran.

[RNK]

Stop every muslim man from beting their wife or females in their family,

Actually, the majority of Muslims do not agree with beating wives or any females for that matter. Even semi-fundamentalist Muslims urge against this. IMO, the proportion of Muslims who enjoy beating and abusing their wives is probably about as proportionate as it is in Christianity, where many believe that women are nothing but completely subservient to their husbands.


let the women take off their headscarves,

Again I think this is a misconception. Many Muslim women prefer the headscarves -- in Islam, the headscarf is essentially equivilent to having a crucifix hanging up on the wall, or a cross on a necklace (though more ordained). It is a tradition, just like baptism, annointing, etc. And again, the majority of moderate Islam isn't very critical of this. Most moderate muslim women wear it by choice, and it is the women themselves who stand up and protest when some white judicial authority declares the headscarves illegal (as in France, Canada, etc).


Give females more then just 2% of pollitical office,

It's not much different in any "christian" western country. 20 years ago the west was probably at the same point that most moderate Islamic republics are at now in terms of women in official positions.


stop assasinating women who want to break away from the muslim faith,

Again this sort of action is condemned by the majority of moderate Islam. It is only fundamentalists who defend this sort of action. It is also due to cultural, and not religious, differences.


stop assasinating people who do not want to be muslim and want to publish books or movies aboutt he horrors of the islamic faith.

Again, I think you're being slightly discriminatory, or lightly ignorant. You're trying to paint out the entirety of the Islamic faith to be brutal, repressive fundamentalists. This isn't the case; no more than it is with Christian-dominated republics. Sufficed to say, the vast majority of Muslims do not assassinate non-Muslims. On the contrary, since 2001, it is Muslims, not Christians or Jews, who have been slaughtered whole-sale like cattle by an "opposing" religion.

Anyway, I'm just pointing out, there is very little religious difference between Christianity and Islam. Both are prone to fundamentalists who say and attempt to do crazy things. Pat Robertson goes on national TV and declares that a political opponent of the USA should be killed; likewise, many fundamentalist Muslims say the same about Tony Blair and George Bush. Also, fundamentalist Muslims have been responsible for a plethora of terrorist attacks that have probably killed tens of thousands in the past 5 years; similarly, "Christian" nations led by "deeply religious" people (ie, George W. Bush and is proclamation that he is on a "mission from God" -- his words, not mine) have killed tens of thousands (or more) of people in the past 5 years.

Most religious practices, when pursued lightly or moderately, are not a problem. What do we care if someone wants to believe in God so they can sleep at night? That's their choice. It's when fundamentalism springs up that it becomes a problem. This has manifested itself in all religions; in George W. Bush's christian crusade; in Osama bin Laden's islamic jihad; in Israel's jewish "zionism".


Funny thing is that Iran's Communist Party during that time was against Mossadegh, especially when he tried to nationalize Iran's gas

IS it because the Soviets were the main purchasers, or is it because Mossadegh wanted to nationalize the oil industry on bourgeois terms? Nationalizing oil isn't always a good thing; if a country is simply replacing foriegn capitalist control with domestic capitalist control, nobody really wins except capitalists.

Anyway, even today there are many Iranian communist groups that oppose the current Iranian republic; some openly and violently.

[Cheung Mo]

The Soviets likely had deals with the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company that would have disrupted by Iran's nationalisation. If that were the case, intefering with nationalisation was a shortsighted move on the part of the Kremlin and its allies: I think Mossadegh would have been thrilled to gave Moscow a fair rate if they had sided openly with Mossadegh to *gasp* give the Iranian people control of their own oil rather than let those fucks in London swindle them (which was the whole point of Operation Ajax...London was pissed that nationalisation would have robbed them of dirt cheap oil acquired without the consent of the Iranian people).

It's not only time "leftist" governments and parties supported reactionary policies of this nature: Ceausescu's economic policies were essentially a matter of fellating Richard Nixon for money and starving his own people to pay the debt to Washington (sounds like what neo-liberal regimes in Africa, Asia, and Latin America do nowadays).

[вор в законе]

IS it because the Soviets were the main purchasers, or is it because Mossadegh wanted to nationalize the oil industry on bourgeois terms? Nationalizing oil isn't always a good thing; if a country is simply replacing foriegn capitalist control with domestic capitalist control, nobody really wins except capitalists.

Anyway, even today there are many Iranian communist groups that oppose the current Iranian republic; some openly and violently.

As Cheung Mo said, the Iranians had deals with the previous regime. The Gas Industry was almost entirely on British hands during that time, thus Nationalizing would have been a step forward for that time. As a matter of fact when Mossadegh saw the Communists opposing his nationalisation program he was quite shocked. In fact the policy of the Communist Party was irrational and it isolated them from the Iranian working class, which saw them as nothing more than Soviet Union's embassy. These can be validated by Iranian comrades.

The Iranian Communist groups are unfortunately very weak now. But there is a lot of revolutionary potential in Iran, given that 70% of the country are people under the age of 30. Hopefully it wont be another Rose or Orange revolution but a Red one.

[Raj Radical]

Its predicated that if Arab Muslims would have expanded into the whole of Europe, technologically, the western would would be 500 years ahead of where we are today.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Raj [email protected] 07, 2007 04:36 am
Its predicated that if Arab Muslims would have expanded into the whole of Europe, technologically, the western would would be 500 years ahead of where we are today.
I can't see how that assertion could ever be substantiated given thats not what happened?