Communism and sexual/social liberalism...

[Cheung Mo]

How did the division between communists who believe that such things as homosexuality, polyamory, and sexual fetishism are examples of the deviance and decandence of the bourgeoisie and communists who believe that sexual liberty (and related social freedoms) are being repressed by the bourgeoisie come about?

I'm firmly in the latter school of thought and have a hard time accepting thoose who fall into the former school as being comrades...Maybe it's because I turned towards ultra-secularism and social liberalism long before I considered myself leftist and am stuck thinking in that framework still.

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by Cheung [email protected] 10, 2007 01:01 pm
How did the division between communists who believe that such things as homosexuality, polyamory, and sexual fetishism are examples of the deviance and decandence of the bourgeoisie and communists who believe that sexual liberty (and related social freedoms) are being repressed by the bourgeoisie come about?

I'm firmly in the latter school of thought and have a hard time accepting thoose who fall into the former school as being comrades...Maybe it's because I turned towards ultra-secularism and social liberalism long before I considered myself leftist and am stuck thinking in that framework still.
I really don't think that the former is that prevalent at all in this time, particularly in more developed countries, though I do know that historically, a lot of communists thought that sexual exploration was a product of capitalism and would be done away with in a post-revolution society.

[Whitten]

I'm also in the later school. I honestly see those "socialists" who oppose social liberty as being social conservatives first, but ones who have advanced into blaming capitalism and liberalism (both economic and social) for social deviance and what they consider immorality.

[WP_Joel]

Possible oppertunism by communists to appeal to the convervative sections of society maybe?

[Demogorgon]

The former attitude exxists simply because those who think that way absorbed certain prejudices and never thought to question them. It happens. Normally very sensible people will often have some ridiculous views simply because they have never seriously thought about the issue at hand.

[Hate Is Art]

I think the sexually conservative element of prevalent in some strands of leftist thought has almost completely died out.

Iarose from some early leftists being linked with Christian thought, for example the Fabians and early Labour movements, at a time when atheism and secularism where not rife but religious morality was seen as the 'norm' the industrialised Victorian society that most early leftists where living in.

[Janus]

How did the division between communists who believe that such things as homosexuality, polyamory, and sexual fetishism are examples of the deviance and decandence of the bourgeoisie and communists who believe that sexual liberty (and related social freedoms) are being repressed by the bourgeoisie come about?
Old Left vs. New Left. A certain portion of the older communists as well as the communists in developing areas try to ignore such issues and appeal to the societally conservative populace. It's not surprising.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Yeah Janus is right. Its basically Old Left vs. New Left type of thing as well as the social conservatism of the area in question.

[seraphim]

The same way that those divisions came about in society in general because it's how it should be the latter are right and the wrong, simple really.

[SPK]

Originally posted by Cheung [email protected] 10, 2007 01:01 pm
How did the division between communists who believe that such things as homosexuality, polyamory, and sexual fetishism are examples of the deviance and decandence of the bourgeoisie and communists who believe that sexual liberty (and related social freedoms) are being repressed by the bourgeoisie come about?
Some people want to overthrow capitalism, because they want a genuinely-new world with new modes of everyday life – which includes different ways of structuring the family, gender, sexuality, and so on. They believe that capitalism hinders, at central points, such developments. Other people want to overthrow capitalism, because they want to conserve existing modes of everyday life. And they believe that capitalism hinders, in key ways, that goal. Historically, the latter position has obviously included forms of homophobia and male supremacy, among other things.

Capitalism produces constant upheavals in society and opens new up new possibilities, for at least some. The ability to enter the labor force and get a job (however limited and problematic that clearly has been) was important, for example, in women being able to shed the traditional obligations of family and motherhood. It was important for queer people, as well, in being able to create communities and live their lives in accordance with their desires. These upheavals and openings drive, in part, the resistance from more conservative quarters. However, capitalism cannot fully develop these possibilities nor make them freely accessible to all workers and the oppressed. This incomplete reality drives, in part, the resistance from more radical quarters.

Support for sexual liberation in particular is much more prevalent on the left today. I doubt that the more general phenomena has changed much, though, and we should be wary of that. Biases and prejudices in our cultures are not something that is merely carried-over into revolutionary struggles – they are not neutral or disconnected from the underlying dynamic of progressive movements. They can be, and have been, a conscious impetus for certain backwards segments of those struggles.