On the Road for the People

[China studen]

On the Road for the People

The Korean people lead a genuine life under the socialist system where the masses of the people are masters of everything and everything serves them. This system is associated with the wise leadership of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il who have always travelled down together a path of dedication to the people, placing The people are my god as their lifelong motto and political philosophy.

President Kim Il Sung, who embarked on the road of revolution in his early years shouldering the destiny of the people deprived of their country, authored the Juche idea, organized and led the anti-Japanese revolutionary struggle to victory, accomplishing the historic cause of national liberation, and built socialist Korea.

The leader Kim Jong Il, who started his revolutionary activities in his early years with a far-sighted ambition to brilliantly consummate the revolutionary cause of the President, continued his tour of on-the-spot guidance to different places all over the country and energetically led the whole of socialist construction from the time much earlier than 40 years ago when he started work at the Central Committee of the Workers’ Party of Korea to lead our revolution.

During all these years they meditated and thought together, and created and led construction together, hewing out the grim revolutionary road for scores of years together, making their common mission and goal of “only for the sake of the people” and “together with the people” run through their revolutionary struggle.

Through their extraordinary inquiry and energetic ideological and theoretical activities they further consolidated the ideological basis of our-style people-centred socialism with the Juche idea that the masters of the revolution and construction are the masses of the people and that they are also the motive force of the revolution and construction.

Kim Jong Il has written numerous works including On the Juche Idea, where he has given the most valuable ideological and spiritual wealth to the Korean people by rearing the Juche idea initiated and implanted in the hearts of the Korean people by Kim Il Sung into dense forests and bringing about a rich harvest.

They raised the existence and value of man onto the highest plane and brilliantly illuminated a shortcut to the socialist construction for realizing the independent demands of the people with the rays of the Juche idea.

The idea and theory on the three revolutions, ideological, technical and cultural, which the Korean people hold fast to as the general line in the socialist construction, are the outcome of the two great men’s joint speculation and inquiry.

They made tours of on-the-spot guidance together to put into practice the lines and policies of the Party and the state. The country’s prosperity and people’s welfare were always the focus of their long discussion and the roads of their field inspection from the steep passes in the northern tip to the foot paths between paddy fields in the western coast have been engraved with the traces of their devotion to their realization.

On their road for the people grand programmes of the socialist construction including the line on the three-major technical revolutions have been materialized with success and the country’s independent national economy further consolidated.

President Kim Il Sung and the leader Kim Jong Il solidified the defence power of the country rock-firm and stoutly defended the socialist motherland by consistently carrying through the Songun revolutionary line of the WPK.

Saying that the substantial superiority of the people-centred socialism incessantly develops by dint of the united strength of the masses of the people, they effected the moral unity of the whole society based on the revolutionary comradeship and sense of moral obligations as an integrated whole of the leader, the Party and the masses, firmly united ideologically and on will.

They developed the WPK into a mother party that enjoys the absolute support and encouragement of the masses of the people and made the people’s power serve them.

They saw to it that the Party strictly adhered to safeguarding the people’s interests as the supreme principle of its activities and it regarded the love for and trust in the people as the core of its policies.

Besides, they enabled the popular masses to exercise their independent rights to the full in political life as the masters of the state and society and made the people’s power organs become staunch protectors of the people and officials of the power organs servants of the people.

The Korean people lead an independent life in the place of eternal happiness thanks to President Kim Il Sung and the leader Kim Jong Il who added lustre to the people-centred socialism with energetic leadership.

The Korean people make a fresh leap in the socialist construction upholding the Songun leadership of
Kim Jong Il.

http://www.kcckp.net/images/periodic/korea/2007/01/2-1-0.jpgPresident Kim Il Sung and the leader Kim Jong Il discuss work at the Sixth Congress of the Workers’ Party of Korea in October 1980.

http://www.kcckp.net/images/periodic/korea/2007/01/2-2-0.jpg
Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il look round the Tower of the Juche Idea in April 1982

http://www.kcckp.net/images/periodic/korea/2007/01/3-1-0.jpg
Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il provide field guidance to the construction of the West Sea Barrage in September 1985.

http://www.kcckp.net/images/periodic/korea/2007/01/3-2-0.jpg
Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il give on-the-spot guidance at the Hwanghae Iron Works in May 1966.

http://www.kcckp.net/images/periodic/korea/2007/01/3-3-0.jpg
Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il look at the samples of labour protection items of coal miners in November 1982.

http://www.kcckp.net/images/periodic/korea/2007/01/4-1-0.jpg
Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il look at the soldiers of the Korean People’s Army under training in April 1987.

http://www.kcckp.net/images/periodic/korea/2007/01/4-3-0.jpg
Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il look at the blankets produced at the Pakchon Silk Mill in April 1984.

[RedStarOverChina]

Originally posted by China [email protected] 10, 2007 02:46 am
http://www.kcckp.net/images/periodic/korea/2007/01/2-1-0.jpgPresident Kim Il Sung and the leader Kim Jong Il discuss work at the Sixth Congress of the Workers’ Party of Korea in October 1980.

Hmm. "Lil' Kim" didn't look all that bad when he was young. :lol:

[China studen]

Originally posted by RedStarOverChina+February 10, 2007 02:18 pm--> (RedStarOverChina @ February 10, 2007 02:18 pm)
China [email protected] 10, 2007 02:46 am
http://www.kcckp.net/images/periodic/korea/2007/01/2-1-0.jpgPresident Kim Il Sung and the leader Kim Jong Il discuss work at the Sixth Congress of the Workers’ Party of Korea in October 1980.

Hmm. "Lil' Kim" didn't look all that bad when he was young. :lol: [/b]
Your capitalism reactionary clique attacks the leader which the
socialism people supports, you have this right?

Chairman Mao Zedong has a famous saying "the investigation not to have
the right to speak". You have the real understanding to Korea?
You know Korean people's idea?

Then your capitalist country state heads? Bush is contemporary Hitler,
Bleir is US'S lap dogs……... ...

[Joseph Ball]

The masses of the Democratic Peoples' Republic of Korea have waged a very heroic struggle against imperialism and for the independence of their country. However, to grasp the line of the self-reliance of oppressed nations, in its most developed form, people should study the line of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, as well.

Obviously, many westerners adopt the line of the gentry, mocking the struggles and sacrifices of those in the oppressed nations and trying to lord it over them.

[Enragé]

China studen,

As you know, communism/socialism is about empowering the people, its about equality, justice and freedom.

Now, dont you think that this comes into conflict with the fact that Kim Jong Il is the leader and has been for so long? The very fact that there is a leader, and that he is worshipped like Jezus or Buddha, doesnt that indicate there is something very seriously wrong with North Korean society?
Also, do you not think it is a bit... odd for a self-professed socialist society that the son of the old "great leader" becomes the new "great leader"? Doesnt that remind you of fuedalism, of monarchy?

Power should lie with the people, period. Not with some leader, no matter how wise he might seem to some.

[Rawthentic]

North Korea is not socialist. Its a state capitalist nation, returned to its historical path after its futile attempt at creating socialism. This dude makes it seem as if North Korea was some kind of worker's paradise. Not quite, Kim Jong Il decides to spend millions of dollars on nukes instead of finding new ways to feed the starving people.

[JKP]

I think this China Studen guy is a right winger who finds this kind of stuff funny.

Juche ideology has next to zero following in the world except in North Korea (and even there I don't think it's very popular...).

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

North Korea's system is a joke, and a travesty. Raging social inequalities between the Party and the rest are as opposite as one can get to socialism.

[China studen]

Originally posted by ahab+February 10, 2007 07:24 pm--> (ahab @ February 10, 2007 07:24 pm)
Originally posted by China [email protected] 10, 2007 02:30 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 02:18 pm

China [email protected] 10, 2007 02:46 am
http://www.kcckp.net/images/periodic/korea/2007/01/2-1-0.jpgPresident Kim Il Sung and the leader Kim Jong Il discuss work at the Sixth Congress of the Workers’ Party of Korea in October 1980.

Hmm. "Lil' Kim" didn't look all that bad when he was young. :lol:
Your capitalism reactionary clique attacks the leader which the
socialism people supports, you have this right?

Chairman Mao Zedong has a famous saying "the investigation not to have
the right to speak". You have the real understanding to Korea?
You know Korean people's idea?

Then your capitalist country state heads? Bush is contemporary Hitler,
Bleir is US'S lap dogs……... ...
ok, calm down, it was a compliment [/b]
Labor Leader of the Revolution, Leader of the Revolution only need the support of the people, not the hypocrisy "of compliment."

[China studen]

Originally posted by Joseph [email protected] 10, 2007 11:33 pm
The masses of the Democratic Peoples' Republic of Korea have waged a very heroic struggle against imperialism and for the independence of their country. However, to grasp the line of the self-reliance of oppressed nations, in its most developed form, people should study the line of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, as well.

Obviously, many westerners adopt the line of the gentry, mocking the struggles and sacrifices of those in the oppressed nations and trying to lord it over them.
Right to say that many Westerners would only use the capitalist mentality, ignorance and pitiful.
Reminder : instead of "Republic of Korea" (South Korea), is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea).

[China studen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 11:53 pm
China studen,

As you know, communism/socialism is about empowering the people, its about equality, justice and freedom.

Now, dont you think that this comes into conflict with the fact that Kim Jong Il is the leader and has been for so long? The very fact that there is a leader, and that he is worshipped like Jezus or Buddha, doesnt that indicate there is something very seriously wrong with North Korean society?
Also, do you not think it is a bit... odd for a self-professed socialist society that the son of the old "great leader" becomes the new "great leader"? Doesnt that remind you of fuedalism, of monarchy?

Power should lie with the people, period. Not with some leader, no matter how wise he might seem to some.
First, I knew most at least that, the socialism at least enable the
people to enjoy the most basic basic necessities of life and the
welfare. Does not like your capitalist country, the poor person
starves to death, freezes to death. Also does not like China, in the
name is "the socialism", but the poor person actually lives was
inferior to dies. Second, you whether did think North Korea lacks "the
democracy"? Asked you did know has a noun to be called "the people's
democratic dictatorship"? The Korean people enjoy the full democracy
in the legal scope, they may participate in the fair election, has
various right. If the socialist countries completely implement west
"the democracy", what then also has with the capitalist country to
distinguish? The capitalist country to the proletariat also is a
dictatorship, if you publicly announced must subvert American the
government, US also can arrest you.Third, North Korea guaranteed citizen's freedom of belief, North Korea
has the Eastern Orthodoxy person, also has the Buddhist, but the
population very are all few. Why? Because the follower discovered "the
god" cannot rescue them, only has the socialism the leader can give
them to be happy. Fourth, I want to ask you: If a person truly very
great, then, it is necessary for to prevent "the personality cult" but
not to acknowledge he is great? This is realistic? Fifth, North
Korea's election is fair, the democracy. Kim Jong Il inherits his
father's enterprise, becomes the head of state, is the entire Korean
people's consistent wish. Please you do not twist the Korean people to
leader's loyalty! Sixth, the son inherits father's position, has held
the post of the national leader to belong to "the feudalism or the
constitutional monarchy"? Then, asks you to explain US'S Bush fathers
and sons, or are Singapore's Lee Kuan Yew, Li Xianlong, whether they
did calculate makes "the constitutional monarchy"? .

[China studen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 12:07 pm
China Studen sells North Korea pretty good! ;)

I say let him post this stuff and the pictures.. why do people make fun of him?
They oppose only then well, otherwise does not have the debate, also
cannot demonstrate their ignorance. :P

I debated for a long time in
China's Internet with the right wing that, my 13 years old argued with
them, present I already 16 years old.

My picture:

[personl picture removed by Dr. Rosenpenis]

[Hiero]

Originally posted by China [email protected] 11, 2007 01:30 am
Chairman Mao Zedong has a famous saying "the investigation not to have
the right to speak". You have the real understanding to Korea?
You know Korean people's idea?


Correct translation. "No investigation, no right to speak".

[China studen]

Originally posted by Hiero+February 11, 2007 12:23 pm--> (Hiero @ February 11, 2007 12:23 pm)
China [email protected] 11, 2007 01:30 am
Chairman Mao Zedong has a famous saying "the investigation not to have
the right to speak". You have the real understanding to Korea?
You know Korean people's idea?


Correct translation. "No investigation, no right to speak". [/b]
My English truly is too bad, I now am exchange with the translation
website with you. :blush:

You knew Mao Zedong's speech, looked like you understood very much to
him?

[China studen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 12:35 am
North Korea is not socialist. Its a state capitalist nation, returned to its historical path after its futile attempt at creating socialism. This dude makes it seem as if North Korea was some kind of worker's paradise. Not quite, Kim Jong Il decides to spend millions of dollars on nukes instead of finding new ways to feed the starving people.
You too have been stupid, your vision also too short and shallow.

Asked that, If a country not formidable protection capability, enemy's
invasion all cannot prevent, what reason discussion economy that also
does have? Yugoslavia is a very good example. Korea so long as
had the nuclear weapon, the beautiful imperialism on does not dare to
invade Korea again, then, Korea only then has the energy
to develop the economy.

[China studen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 12:50 am
I think this China Studen guy is a right winger who finds this kind of stuff funny.

Juche ideology has next to zero following in the world except in North Korea (and even there I don't think it's very popular...).
You thought I am the right wing? Hum, unheard-of absurdity! :lol:

Your unconsciously main body thought all receives the welcome in world many
places, had proven your friendless and un-learned, you for own ignorantly do not feel ashamed, instead must talk nonsense in here, you are unconsciously ashamed?

[China studen]

Originally posted by Question [email protected] 11, 2007 01:52 am
I think Kim Il Jong is just loney so he signed up here to chat ;)

that or he is trying to brain-wash us :unsure:
Congratulates you! You not by Kim Jong Il "brainwashing". You are only
by the capitalism ruler brainwashing.

A stubborn ignorant capitalism pitiful creature!

[China studen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 04:15 am
North Korea's system is a joke, and a travesty. Raging social inequalities between the Party and the rest are as opposite as one can get to socialism.
You can be a slave of capitalism despite ridicule Korea, various
countries progress people all yearned for country. If, some day, you will no longer attack launched by North Korea, just like the attitude of the United States toward China, This can only prove that the country is no longer a socialist country.

[phoenixoftime]

North Korea's election is fair, the democracy. Kim Jong Il inherits his father's enterprise, becomes the head of state, is the entire Korean people's consistent wish.

Please explain exactly how Kim Jong Il was elected.

[China studen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 05:55 am

All the citizens of the DPRK including workers, farmers, servicemen and intellectuals will take part in the (SPA) election as masters of state and society. In the DPRK, the election is freely and fairly held by secret balloting on the principles of universal, equal and direct vote. Every citizen who has reached the age of 17 unrestrictedly participates in elections with equal rights and has the right to elect and to be elected in elections to people's assemblies at all levels. (-KCNA)

Would someone be able to explain how the DPRK electoral system works? I can't seem to find very many sources of info at all, let alone a neutral one.


maybe china student is Kim-Il-Jong? just sayin'...

If china student is Kim Jong Il, can I come and work for the DPRK government? I can't even find a university in my country that offers useful Marxian economic study, let alone someone who will employ me in the field :(

Ooh and I also want to know whether he cried during Team America :lol:

FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS OF CITIZENS

The DPRK practically guarantees the people genuine political freedom and rights according to the fundamental requirement of the Juche idea for enhancing man’s independence and creativity in every way.
In the DPRK the rights and duties of citizens are based on the collectivist principle, “One for all and all for one.”
The Socialist Constitution of the DPRK specifies that the state effectively guarantees all the conditions for the democratic rights and liberties as well as the material and cultural well-being of the citizens.
All the citizens who have reached 17 years of age have the right to elect and to be elected, irrespective of sex, race, occupation, length of residence, property status, education, party affiliation, political views and religion. They also have freedom of speech, the press, assembly, demonstration and association, freedom of religious beliefs and they are entitled to submit complaints and petitions.
The workers, peasants and other working people, as masters of power, participate in state administration and freely engage in socio-political activities in political parties and public organizations. The working people have the right to work and rest, the right to education and free medical care and freedom of scientific, literary and artistic pursuits. Women are accorded equal social status and rights with men. The state affords special privilege to mothers and children.
Marriage and the family are protected by the state. The working people are guaranteed inviolability of the person and the home and privacy of correspondence. The rights and freedom of citizens steadily increase with the consolidation and development of the socialist system.

[China studen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 12:50 pm

North Korea's election is fair, the democracy. Kim Jong Il inherits his father's enterprise, becomes the head of state, is the entire Korean people's consistent wish.

Please explain exactly how Kim Jong Il was elected.
First elects the people's represententative by the most basic
inhabitant unit, the national populace all may participate in the
election. Then by the representative which selects by the people
elects once again, selects the higher paraffin people's
represententative. Finally participates in the voting by these
people's represententative at the national congress.

[Enragé]

see here the impossibility of discussion if you do not accept common grounds of truth, if you do not accept the same sources etc, etc. For all i know i am wrong, or china studen here, but well... he who controls the past controls the present, who controls the present controls the future, and if everyone around me says 2 plus 2 equals 5, now then who am i to say that is not true? How am i to prove it is indeed 4?

China studen, read the american constitution, it too guarantees equality and other noble things
then look at american society, as you can see it does not actually guarantee those things. So, too, we can not be sure if the North Korean constitution is actually implemented, especially since we cannot freely go there.

You talk of the wrongs in capitalist society, to undo the ones, to make them seem not wrong at all, in a self-professed socialist society. Yes, Bush's father was also president, yes, his son gained power because of the power of the clique around him and his father...but is that supposed to prove its alright for the same to happen in the DPRK? If anything, that just proves the DPRK is just as capitalist.

You talk of the DPRK making sure people do not starve, that they have basic necessities. I do not know if that is true, but let us assume that it is. In my country, the netherlands, nobody starves either, everybody has their basic necessities, yet the poor still exist, the working class is still oppressed and the netherlands still is very much capitalist. So, too, does the DPRK providing basic necessities not in any way show it is not capitalist; just that if they let everyone starve there will be none to produce for the leaders, whether they are named "bourgeois" or "Great Leader"

[Enragé]

The state affords special privilege to mothers and children.


why?

[Pirate Utopian]

Originally posted by China studen+February 11, 2007 12:40 pm--> (China studen @ February 11, 2007 12:40 pm)
Big [email protected] 10, 2007 07:16 pm
what toothpaste did Kim Il Sung use?
i want to get teeth that glow in the dark too.
Your mouth too has been smelly, has polluted your tooth, your tooth
forever also is dirty. [/b]
thanks, i'll try not to let it go to my head :rolleyes:

[Hiero]

Yes, Bush's father was also president, yes, his son gained power because of the power of the clique around him and his father...but is that supposed to prove its alright for the same to happen in the DPRK? If anything, that just proves the DPRK is just as capitalist.

No it doesn't. The unrestricted private property, market and imperialism makes the USA capitalist. These things are not the norm in DPRK.


You talk of the DPRK making sure people do not starve, that they have basic necessities. I do not know if that is true, but let us assume that it is. In my country, the netherlands, nobody starves either, everybody has their basic necessities, yet the poor still exist, the working class is still oppressed and the netherlands still is very much capitalist. So, too, does the DPRK providing basic necessities not in any way show it is not capitalist; just that if they let everyone starve there will be none to produce for the leaders, whether they are named "bourgeois" or "Great Leader"

In the Netherlands it is a easy thing for government to make sure the majority of people have the basic neccesities. It has a longer history of capitalism and imperialism. It can provide the demands of the working class for a reasonable living standards.

Korea has a the opposite. It has a history of colonialism. The fact that North Korea today can provide some form of welfare is a huge success. This is done without capitalist expliotation. Without a history of colonialism. It is rather impressive that the DPRK is one of the few indepenent nations.

[Enragé]

No it doesn't. The unrestricted private property, market and imperialism makes the USA capitalist. These things are not the norm in DPRK.

If the state is controlled by one man, or one clique, and it owns the means of production, that isnt fundamentally different from a capitalist nations where a clique also controls the means of production, called the bourgeois, its just a monopoly.


In the Netherlands it is a easy thing for government to make sure the majority of people have the basic neccesities. It has a longer history of capitalism and imperialism. It can provide the demands of the working class for a reasonable living standards.

Korea has a the opposite. It has a history of colonialism. The fact that North Korea today can provide some form of welfare is a huge success. This is done without capitalist expliotation. Without a history of colonialism. It is rather impressive that the DPRK is one of the few indepenent nations.


not the point. My point was that it does not prove the DPRK is socialist.

[China studen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 02:16 pm
see here the impossibility of discussion if you do not accept common grounds of truth, if you do not accept the same sources etc, etc. For all i know i am wrong, or china studen here, but well... he who controls the past controls the present, who controls the present controls the future, and if everyone around me says 2 plus 2 equals 5, now then who am i to say that is not true? How am i to prove it is indeed 4?

China studen, read the american constitution, it too guarantees equality and other noble things
then look at american society, as you can see it does not actually guarantee those things. So, too, we can not be sure if the North Korean constitution is actually implemented, especially since we cannot freely go there.

You talk of the wrongs in capitalist society, to undo the ones, to make them seem not wrong at all, in a self-professed socialist society. Yes, Bush's father was also president, yes, his son gained power because of the power of the clique around him and his father...but is that supposed to prove its alright for the same to happen in the DPRK? If anything, that just proves the DPRK is just as capitalist.

You talk of the DPRK making sure people do not starve, that they have basic necessities. I do not know if that is true, but let us assume that it is. In my country, the netherlands, nobody starves either, everybody has their basic necessities, yet the poor still exist, the working class is still oppressed and the netherlands still is very much capitalist. So, too, does the DPRK providing basic necessities not in any way show it is not capitalist; just that if they let everyone starve there will be none to produce for the leaders, whether they are named "bourgeois" or "Great Leader"
That asked whether I do have to accept you "the recognition fact"?

What is the judgement standard? Your west ideology?

Reminds you once more: You do not think the natural matter strongly lets us accept.

Many matters you did not understand. I although am young, but I have
read many books, knew many people, I know the world each place people
values the similarities and differences. But does not like you, always
one-sidedly regards the question.

The Marxist philosophy request with the diagnostic method viewpoint analysis thing, you has artificially arrived?

I know what you mean, you say "we must look at the issue to see nature." However, I am sure that at least the fact that the Korean People's boundless loyalty to their leader.

I am explained the Bush fathers and sons as the example goal that,

You cannot think at least the Bush fathers and sons are "hereditary"?
Because they are elect through the voter produce. Korea's
leaders also are produce through the election.

You must pay attention, you said the example is only your national
Holland, a developed capitalist country. Then other capitalist
countries? African, Latin America, with Asia's China these capitalism
areas?

[China studen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 02:17 pm

The state affords special privilege to mothers and children.


why?
Because Korea encourages the birth.

[Hiero]

If the state is controlled by one man, or one clique, and it owns the means of production, that isnt fundamentally different from a capitalist nations where a clique also controls the means of production, called the bourgeois, its just a monopoly

There is no dominant market forces in the DPRK. There is not a class collecting profits from exploiting wages. The product of the labour of the workers is spent back onto the people in welfare, national security etc. There is probally a huge bureaucratic group, but this does not mean there is capitalism.

[China studen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 03:21 pm

Yes, Bush's father was also president, yes, his son gained power because of the power of the clique around him and his father...but is that supposed to prove its alright for the same to happen in the DPRK? If anything, that just proves the DPRK is just as capitalist.

No it doesn't. The unrestricted private property, market and imperialism makes the USA capitalist. These things are not the norm in DPRK.


You talk of the DPRK making sure people do not starve, that they have basic necessities. I do not know if that is true, but let us assume that it is. In my country, the netherlands, nobody starves either, everybody has their basic necessities, yet the poor still exist, the working class is still oppressed and the netherlands still is very much capitalist. So, too, does the DPRK providing basic necessities not in any way show it is not capitalist; just that if they let everyone starve there will be none to produce for the leaders, whether they are named "bourgeois" or "Great Leader"

In the Netherlands it is a easy thing for government to make sure the majority of people have the basic neccesities. It has a longer history of capitalism and imperialism. It can provide the demands of the working class for a reasonable living standards.

Korea has a the opposite. It has a history of colonialism. The fact that North Korea today can provide some form of welfare is a huge success. This is done without capitalist expliotation. Without a history of colonialism. It is rather impressive that the DPRK is one of the few indepenent nations.
I approve of your viewpoint very much, I thought NKOS simplified the
question.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

China Studen

Why cant workers in the DPRK form trade unions which are independant from the state?

[Enragé]

That asked whether I do have to accept you "the recognition fact"?

What is the judgement standard? Your west ideology?

Reminds you once more: You do not think the natural matter strongly lets us accept.



This is the whole problem here. Any source i would give would be discredited by you as western propaganda, and any source you would give would be discredited by me as DPRK propaganda.

And we would both be right. Since it is both propaganda.
Yet i see it as more likely, looking at the images coming out of the DPRK and restrictions on travel put on the North Korean people, that the western propaganda is closer to fact. North Korea, is not a good country. This i deduct with my own reasoning.
I sent you a personal message containing various videos on North Korea, what do you think of them?


Many matters you did not understand. I although am young, but I have
read many books, knew many people, I know the world each place people
values the similarities and differences. But does not like you, always
one-sidedly regards the question.

Im not being one-sided. You are the one who is portraying North Korea as a paradise, which i do not think it is.


I know what you mean, you say "we must look at the issue to see nature." However, I am sure that at least the fact that the Korean People's boundless loyalty to their leader./quote]

Lots of right wing americans are sure of the american people's boundless loyalty to George Bush. However, that does not make the US a good country.
Yes im sure you have read many books, but written by whom? By sympathisers of north korea, or even the north korean state!
Surely, you should not blindly trust those writings, as i should not blindly trust western media (which i dont).

[quote]You cannot think at least the Bush fathers and sons are "hereditary"?
Because they are elect through the voter produce. Korea's
leaders also are produce through the election.


And just like the US's election, i suspect them to be rigged, to some degree at least.


Then other capitalist
countries? African, Latin America, with Asia's China these capitalism
areas?


Sure, but the point was that no starvation isnt proof of socialism.


There is no dominant market forces in the DPRK. There is not a class collecting profits from exploiting wages. The product of the labour of the workers is spent back onto the people in welfare, national security etc. There is probally a huge bureaucratic group, but this does not mean there is capitalism.

How do you know?
For all we know Kim Jung Il is living a wealthy life.
And we know for a fact that most money goes to the military, that means to the consolidation of the powerful in North Korea, which means the bureaucrats of the Party

[Honggweilo]

http://www.korea-is-one.org/IMG/KIOdag1-500.jpg
http://www.korea-is-one.org/IMG/KIOdag2-500.jpg
:lol:


Sixth, the son inherits father's position, has held
the post of the national leader to belong to "the feudalism or the
constitutional monarchy"? Then, asks you to explain US'S Bush fathers
and sons, or are Singapore's Lee Kuan Yew, Li Xianlong, whether they
did calculate makes "the constitutional monarchy"?
He did have a point there :lol:

[An archist]

what a coincidence that the man thought of to be best capable of ruling North Korea is the son of the previous ruler.
Yay for pseudo-monarchies!! long live kim-jong il and his children, the future rulers of north korea!

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by An archist+February 11, 2007 03:37 pm--> (An archist @ February 11, 2007 03:37 pm) what a coincidence that the man thought of to be best capable of ruling North Korea is the son of the previous ruler.
Yay for pseudo-monarchies!! long live kim-jong il and his children, the future rulers of north korea! [/b]
Of course! In fact, there's only the Great/Dear Leader and The People...since the People don't even have names because they are a powerless mass and therefore are just named "the People", only the "glorious" Leaders and their offspring are actual individuals and therefore can be the Leaders.

Seriously, do you have an alternative? Only the Kims are mentioned in most of this propaganda :lol:


silly propaganda
The Korean people lead an independent life in the place of eternal happiness thanks to President Kim Il Sung and the leader Kim Jong Il who added lustre to the people-centred socialism with energetic leadership.

"eternal happiness"?????

:lol: :lol: :lol:

(edited to add caps in "Leader"...you don't wanna offend the "Sun of Nation and Mankind" of the DPRK...you never know what they might do to The People)

[Question everything]

Congratulates you! You not by Kim Jong Il "brainwashing". You are only
by the capitalism ruler brainwashing.

A stubborn ignorant capitalism pitiful creature!

I'm no capitalist. I'm just saying that Kim Jong Il isn't my leader of choice :P I'm not being as mean as most people here but North Koreens are starving, and your dear leader is too busy watching american movies and building Nukes to care...

[phoenixoftime]

The Western media often claim that Kim enjoys expensive cognac, caviar and foreign prostitutes while the rest of the country lives in absolute poverty. Would anyone challenge this?

Also, what sort of Juche analysis is offered for the dire state of DPRK's economy, and its drastic food shortages (apart from the recent flooding)?

[China studen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 03:36 pm

No it doesn't. The unrestricted private property, market and imperialism makes the USA capitalist. These things are not the norm in DPRK.

If the state is controlled by one man, or one clique, and it owns the means of production, that isnt fundamentally different from a capitalist nations where a clique also controls the means of production, called the bourgeois, its just a monopoly.


In the Netherlands it is a easy thing for government to make sure the majority of people have the basic neccesities. It has a longer history of capitalism and imperialism. It can provide the demands of the working class for a reasonable living standards.

Korea has a the opposite. It has a history of colonialism. The fact that North Korea today can provide some form of welfare is a huge success. This is done without capitalist expliotation. Without a history of colonialism. It is rather impressive that the DPRK is one of the few indepenent nations.


not the point. My point was that it does not prove the DPRK is socialist.
Korea is a collective total production.

I do not believe that the Netherlands did not die because of poverty. Hunger, corruption…… capitalism are inevitable.
Last year, the U.S. government has admitted the United States has tens of millions of people suffer from malnutrition.

[China studen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 05:24 pm


That asked whether I do have to accept you "the recognition fact"?

What is the judgement standard? Your west ideology?

Reminds you once more: You do not think the natural matter strongly lets us accept.



This is the whole problem here. Any source i would give would be discredited by you as western propaganda, and any source you would give would be discredited by me as DPRK propaganda.

And we would both be right. Since it is both propaganda.
Yet i see it as more likely, looking at the images coming out of the DPRK and restrictions on travel put on the North Korean people, that the western propaganda is closer to fact. North Korea, is not a good country. This i deduct with my own reasoning.
I sent you a personal message containing various videos on North Korea, what do you think of them?


Many matters you did not understand. I although am young, but I have
read many books, knew many people, I know the world each place people
values the similarities and differences. But does not like you, always
one-sidedly regards the question.

Im not being one-sided. You are the one who is portraying North Korea as a paradise, which i do not think it is.


I know what you mean, you say "we must look at the issue to see nature." However, I am sure that at least the fact that the Korean People's boundless loyalty to their leader./quote]

Lots of right wing americans are sure of the american people's boundless loyalty to George Bush. However, that does not make the US a good country.
Yes im sure you have read many books, but written by whom? By sympathisers of north korea, or even the north korean state!
Surely, you should not blindly trust those writings, as i should not blindly trust western media (which i dont).

[quote]You cannot think at least the Bush fathers and sons are "hereditary"?
Because they are elect through the voter produce. Korea's
leaders also are produce through the election.


And just like the US's election, i suspect them to be rigged, to some degree at least.


Then other capitalist
countries? African, Latin America, with Asia's China these capitalism
areas?


Sure, but the point was that no starvation isnt proof of socialism.


There is no dominant market forces in the DPRK. There is not a class collecting profits from exploiting wages. The product of the labour of the workers is spent back onto the people in welfare, national security etc. There is probally a huge bureaucratic group, but this does not mean there is capitalism.

How do you know?
For all we know Kim Jung Il is living a wealthy life.
And we know for a fact that most money goes to the military, that means to the consolidation of the powerful in North Korea, which means the bureaucrats of the Party
I may tell you: Compares with the ordinary Chinese, I wise am very
many to the outside world understanding. Even may say, I grasp the
information (including western media, world left wing revolution
media, the Chinese official media) are possibly more than you. The
ordinary Chinese cannot go to the overseas right wing website through
the network, but I have one kind of software, therefore I may dying on
any website. I knew the capitalism media (in particular Japan, US, how
South Korea) smears Korea. I frequently read their article. But
they cannot deceive me. Why? Because I have the enough understanding
to Korea. Is similar to me to have the full understanding to the
west to be same. I have a cousin in English Birmingham University.

Korea truly limits national's travel, but this kind of household
register system was for the convenience management population, China
before also once like this.

Korea also truly once appeared the grain in the 90's to be
short, but this all was a matter which already passed. North Korea's
economy already restored, they were approaching "the powerful great nation" direction advance.

Chairman Mao once said, "to put right the wrong things, we must too far" (presumably meaning of this). The reason I Jieli to publicize Korea's beautiful, you know : Korea is not so hell. I do not think that Korea is a paradise, but I think Korea, Cuba than China, the United States well

All (300 million) the Americans all infinite are whether loyal to
Bush? Moreover, their loyal degree has high? The Korean people may
fight, the sacrifice for Kim Jong Il. Your inquiry is may understand.
Because you leave North Korea too to be far. But I am not,live in China , my motherland and Korea border on. I have looked at the traveling diary which very many Chinese writes, how regardless of they do treat North Korean the manner are (support or opposition). They all acknowledge a feeling: Each Koreans infinite are all loyal to Kim Jong Il. Certainly, the right wing talks about this fact time, always thought understands with difficulty and surprised.

You also need to know a situation: North Korea liberates from 1945
until now, has not had an opposition government's disturbance, the
rebellion, the revolt... ... In the world which country is such?

I yield, first do not have to discuss "the operation" question.
Since Kim Jong Il's is that high in Korean people mind prestige, has "the
operation" he all to be allowed by reason of people's wish smooth
election.

I only am lift an enough persuasive power the example.

Moreover, I thought the capitalism never can get rid "is hungry" (at
least is minority person).

Kim Jong Il lives wealthily? I may easily affirm that, This is a
rumor.
The capitalism media has a hobby: Describes tyrant's image
their repugnant country Yuan capital.

Tells you a matter: The Hu Jintao most recent several years once
visited Korea. Kim Jong Il greets Hu Jintao at the airport. Kim
Jong Il put on to be very cheap at that time, the very old coat.
China's Internet users saw after, all sends out the discussion, thought Kim
Jong Il too was poor.

[China studen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 06:15 pm
http://www.korea-is-one.org/IMG/KIOdag1-500.jpg
http://www.korea-is-one.org/IMG/KIOdag2-500.jpg
:lol:


Sixth, the son inherits father's position, has held
the post of the national leader to belong to "the feudalism or the
constitutional monarchy"? Then, asks you to explain US'S Bush fathers
and sons, or are Singapore's Lee Kuan Yew, Li Xianlong, whether they
did calculate makes "the constitutional monarchy"?
He did have a point there :lol:
Your west person is not pays attention to "people's wish" very much?

Why doesn't put the attention spot on "Korean people's wish"?

Regardless of the head of state does have any relations with who, so
long as he obtains people's love, is reasonable.

[China studen]

Originally posted by An [email protected] 11, 2007 06:37 pm
what a coincidence that the man thought of to be best capable of ruling North Korea is the son of the previous ruler.
Yay for pseudo-monarchies!! long live kim-jong il and his children, the future rulers of north korea!
I only respect the Korean people the wish.

If you do not acknowledge this fact: The Korean people infinite
support them the leader.

Then, you do not have the qualifications to
discuss "the democracy" and "the human rights"!

[China studen]

Originally posted by El Infiltr(A)do+February 11, 2007 09:10 pm--> (El Infiltr(A)do @ February 11, 2007 09:10 pm)
Originally posted by An [email protected] 11, 2007 03:37 pm
what a coincidence that the man thought of to be best capable of ruling North Korea is the son of the previous ruler.
Yay for pseudo-monarchies!! long live kim-jong il and his children, the future rulers of north korea!
Of course! In fact, there's only the Great/Dear Leader and The People...since the People don't even have names because they are a powerless mass and therefore are just named "the People", only the "glorious" Leaders and their offspring are actual individuals and therefore can be the Leaders.

Seriously, do you have an alternative? Only the Kims are mentioned in most of this propaganda :lol:


silly propaganda
The Korean people lead an independent life in the place of eternal happiness thanks to President Kim Il Sung and the leader Kim Jong Il who added lustre to the people-centred socialism with energetic leadership.

"eternal happiness"?????

:lol: :lol: :lol:

(edited to add caps in "Leader"...you don't wanna offend the "Sun of Nation and Mankind" of the DPRK...you never know what they might do to The People) [/b]
Voluntary support for the Korean people in their countries leaders, and you have to attack them respect as a great man.
This shows that you often say : "democracy" and "respect the will of the people" -- is to the left of the Western democratic camp.
Like their views evaluation others, and to overlook the local people. You are truly ideological dictator, you are full-time friends!

Is at least more joyful than the capitalist country poor people.

They had known the truth, they have the correct belief, they receive the
good education, they have the noble morals, they feel proud for own
country, they live in the equal, the democracy, the stability, peace
socialism paradise.

Capitalism wealthy man? They worried business defeat, worried the
family bursts, worries the nature and man-made disaster... ... They
rich, but they have truely are joyful?

[China studen]

Originally posted by Question [email protected] 12, 2007 01:15 am

Congratulates you! You not by Kim Jong Il "brainwashing". You are only
by the capitalism ruler brainwashing.

A stubborn ignorant capitalism pitiful creature!

I'm no capitalist. I'm just saying that Kim Jong Il isn't my leader of choice :P I'm not being as mean as most people here but North Koreens are starving, and your dear leader is too busy watching american movies and building Nukes to care...
You may not capitalism, but you are loyal slave capitalist system.
Kim Jong Il likes to watch American movies you how sure? Hearsay is the most stupid!

[China studen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 04:06 am
The Western media often claim that Kim enjoys expensive cognac, caviar and foreign prostitutes while the rest of the country lives in absolute poverty. Would anyone challenge this?

Also, what sort of Juche analysis is offered for the dire state of DPRK's economy, and its drastic food shortages (apart from the recent flooding)?
What do you think is "Juche idea" has led to Korea's economic difficulties?

I think the opposite. Without the guidance of the main ideas that Korea may have two results : one with China, betraying socialism, Western economic colony. 2, Russia, capitalist liberalization and ultimately fall into chaos.

Korea's economic difficulties for a number of reasons : one, the main U.S. imperialist blockade and intimidation. 2, the sudden death of Korea's Kim Il Sung, the great leader. 3, frequent outbreaks of natural disasters in that time. 4, the disintegration of the Soviet Union, China betrayed the revolution.

[Enragé]

Korea is a collective total production

so you say.


I do not believe that the Netherlands did not die because of poverty. Hunger, corruption…… capitalism are inevitable.


apparently it isnt. I see no one dying around here of hunger, believe me, and I am very critical of the system we have, in fact i hate it. There is however, no hunger, no starvation.


Last year, the U.S. government has admitted the United States has tens of millions of people suffer from malnutrition.

Im sure they did, but the US isnt the Netherlands.

The netherlands still are capitalist, yet there is no starvation, malnutrition. That is not to say the netherlands is a good country, far from it, its a capitalist shithole, but starvation is not the characteristic of a capitalist nation; private ownership by a small group of the means of production is the dominant characteristic.


Why? Because I have the enough understanding
to Korea

How, have you ever been there?
If you havent, all you know you know through propaganda. The difference between you and me is that you believe North Korean propaganda, and I think western propaganda is more inclined to the truth. But im not the one talking about North Korea all the time, you are.


Korea truly limits national's travel, but this kind of household
register system was for the convenience management population, China
before also once like this.

Right.
And how is it justifiable to force people to stay in a certain place? How is that the freedom and justice of socialism!?


All (300 million) the Americans all infinite are whether loyal to
Bush? Moreover, their loyal degree has high? The Korean people may
fight, the sacrifice for Kim Jong Il. Your inquiry is may understand.
Because you leave North Korea too to be far. But I am not,live in China , my motherland and Korea border on. I have looked at the traveling diary which very many Chinese writes, how regardless of they do treat North Korean the manner are (support or opposition). They all acknowledge a feeling: Each Koreans infinite are all loyal to Kim Jong Il. Certainly, the right wing talks about this fact time, always thought understands with difficulty and surprised.

If i were to scream out loud "FUCK KIM JONG IL! HE'S A BASTARD! A TRAITOR" would i be able to do that?
If so, why isnt there at least 1 someone in north korea doing that?
I mean no matter how infinitely loyal and loving they are to Kim Jong Il, there's bound to be at least one person who disagrees, if it were only for the fact that some people are insane. Well...
where is he?


You also need to know a situation: North Korea liberates from 1945
until now, has not had an opposition government's disturbance, the
rebellion, the revolt... ... In the world which country is such?


Any totalitarian state which completely crushes any dissent?

And maybe there are riots, you just dont hear about it.
Do you think we in the west hear about riots, strikes in china? You'd have to look very hard to find any information on that from here, though it does happen


2, the sudden death of Korea's Kim Il Sung, the great leader.

If all power lies with the people, as it should be in socialism, the death of some leader does not matter.

Yet another indication that there is no socialism in Korea.

[Guerrilla22]

anyone who does not thin that Dear Leader is the greatest person ever is truly ignorant. The DPRK is a socailist paradise, where everyone is living the good life.

[Janus]

They had known the truth, they have the correct belief, they receive the good education, they have the noble morals, they feel proud for own country, they live in the equal, the democracy, the stability, peace socialism paradise.
Is this not hearsay as well?

这不是传言？

china studen, 没有麻烦， 别找麻烦。这些人就不懂你再说什么东西，他们相识愤怒你。我们两个一渠道中文论坛里面去谈话好 不好？

[Question everything]

You may not capitalism, but you are loyal slave capitalist system.
Kim Jong Il likes to watch American movies you how sure? Hearsay is the most stupid!

No you are the most stupid! you think that the media everywhere outside China, and Korea are lying? ha ha ha :lol: you are either Kim Il Jong or a complete tool... :lol: if they media wanted to lie about a state they would do it about Cuba they hate Cuba 1,000,000,000 times more than North-Korea but the media only makes Cuba look bad, it does not lie... and it never said Cubans were starving, or that Fidel is a nut-case....

[Joseph Ball]

I think this stuff about Kim Jong-Il living in luxury while his people starve sounds like western propaganda. There were severe food shortages in the 90s. The DPRK was pretty dependent on trade relations with the Soviet bloc. When the USSR disappeared this caused real problems JUST LIKE IN CUBA. There are signs that the DPRK has got back on its feet since then. We need to investigate more, analyse more. I don't understand why so much right-wing propaganda is recycled on an allegedly socialist website without more analysis. The correct path is to make a united front with all those resisting imperialism, like the DPRK. The predominant anarchist and Trotskyist trends on this website just look like the ultimate in pseudo-revolutionary posturing. Trotskyism and anarchism are just a left-wing excuse for going along with the imperialist line that keeps those in the west (where 90% of Trotskyists and anarchists live) rich and the rest of the world poor.

[China studen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 07:03 pm

Korea is a collective total production

so you say.


I do not believe that the Netherlands did not die because of poverty. Hunger, corruption…… capitalism are inevitable.


apparently it isnt. I see no one dying around here of hunger, believe me, and I am very critical of the system we have, in fact i hate it. There is however, no hunger, no starvation.


Last year, the U.S. government has admitted the United States has tens of millions of people suffer from malnutrition.

Im sure they did, but the US isnt the Netherlands.

The netherlands still are capitalist, yet there is no starvation, malnutrition. That is not to say the netherlands is a good country, far from it, its a capitalist shithole, but starvation is not the characteristic of a capitalist nation; private ownership by a small group of the means of production is the dominant characteristic.


Why? Because I have the enough understanding
to Korea

How, have you ever been there?
If you havent, all you know you know through propaganda. The difference between you and me is that you believe North Korean propaganda, and I think western propaganda is more inclined to the truth. But im not the one talking about North Korea all the time, you are.


Korea truly limits national's travel, but this kind of household
register system was for the convenience management population, China
before also once like this.

Right.
And how is it justifiable to force people to stay in a certain place? How is that the freedom and justice of socialism!?


All (300 million) the Americans all infinite are whether loyal to
Bush? Moreover, their loyal degree has high? The Korean people may
fight, the sacrifice for Kim Jong Il. Your inquiry is may understand.
Because you leave North Korea too to be far. But I am not,live in China , my motherland and Korea border on. I have looked at the traveling diary which very many Chinese writes, how regardless of they do treat North Korean the manner are (support or opposition). They all acknowledge a feeling: Each Koreans infinite are all loyal to Kim Jong Il. Certainly, the right wing talks about this fact time, always thought understands with difficulty and surprised.

If i were to scream out loud "FUCK KIM JONG IL! HE'S A BASTARD! A TRAITOR" would i be able to do that?
If so, why isnt there at least 1 someone in north korea doing that?
I mean no matter how infinitely loyal and loving they are to Kim Jong Il, there's bound to be at least one person who disagrees, if it were only for the fact that some people are insane. Well...
where is he?


You also need to know a situation: North Korea liberates from 1945
until now, has not had an opposition government's disturbance, the
rebellion, the revolt... ... In the world which country is such?


Any totalitarian state which completely crushes any dissent?

And maybe there are riots, you just dont hear about it.
Do you think we in the west hear about riots, strikes in china? You'd have to look very hard to find any information on that from here, though it does happen


2, the sudden death of Korea's Kim Il Sung, the great leader.

If all power lies with the people, as it should be in socialism, the death of some leader does not matter.

Yet another indication that there is no socialism in Korea.
Asked whether certainly has to handle a matter to be able to study it?

The scientist has not gone to the universe, but they have the certain
understanding to the universe. Marx has not experienced the socialism
society, but his talent elaborated this kind of form of society.

Myage limit I cannot alone ride the airplane to go, must have adult's
accompaniment. But my father has gone to Korea. (My father in
politics is not the left wing, even some right deviation).
I look have concerned number and so on Korean picture, phantom, news,
traveling diary to the material which ten thousand records.

Truly, I believed North Korean the propaganda, you believe western the
propaganda. But we have a difference. I have listened to Korea's
propaganda, also has listened to the western propaganda. But you have
only listened to the western propaganda. In other words you are not
many to Korea's propaganda contact.

This is not "forces the people to keep some place". The North Korean
may travel, but must report to the department concerned, in the
ordinary circumstances, the long journey all is permits.

But you must be aware that Korean tourists visited (whether left or right) Why can feel a common fact : Korean people are in favor of Kim Jong Il?
If Korea people is under political pressure to camouflage these feelings Are tourists feel?
Even in some not "mask", the Korean people would heartfelt tribute to their leader.
In addition, I suggest you look at the death of Kim Il Sung, in Pyongyang around the coffins on board the film, the whole film has six, every 30 minutes, people wept and almost all the scenes were shot. Unless from the bottom of my heart, this is not pretend.

The western media is good at fabricating a rumor or the exaggerating
fact. What is strange, the western media actually links a Korea
to appear the rebellion the example all not to be able to find, this
is not strange? Moreover, this is from 1945 to today, more than 60
years! China passes and North Korea is similar, all limits the
foreigner. But China in 1976 erupted "the Tiananmen Incident".

I may tell you: Starts from the 90's, China has the rebellion, the
disturbance every year. Specially 21 worlds starts. China now the
average several days has a time of strike, the protest, the
disturbance. According to mine understanding, the city which I lives
has the external personnel in these years to create a disturbance, the
farmer opposed the government seizes the land the protest, opposition
embezzlement sitting in meditation. The Voice of America, the free
Asian broadcasting station also frequently reported these news, you do
not know? This only can explain you lack the effective information
channel.

Did the head of state suddenly pass away cannot have the influence to
the country?
The Korean people suddenly heard this sorrowful news, therefore was extremely depressed, including the energy which worked all does not have. Even some old people because of are sorrowful excessively died.
This kind to the leader sincere sentiment, you is understands with difficulty.

[China studen]

Originally posted by Question [email protected] 12, 2007 10:21 pm

You may not capitalism, but you are loyal slave capitalist system.
Kim Jong Il likes to watch American movies you how sure? Hearsay is the most stupid!

No you are the most stupid! you think that the media everywhere outside China, and Korea are lying? ha ha ha :lol: you are either Kim Il Jong or a complete tool... :lol: if they media wanted to lie about a state they would do it about Cuba they hate Cuba 1,000,000,000 times more than North-Korea but the media only makes Cuba look bad, it does not lie... and it never said Cubans were starving, or that Fidel is a nut-case....
Then, I seriously ask you to reply: You thought how western the media
did know Kim Jong Il likes watching the American movie?
You must know that,Korea is extremely strict to foreigner's management, the
passenger is cannot go out at will.
Who has the capacity to Kim Jong Il familiar?

[China studen]

Originally posted by Joseph [email protected] 12, 2007 10:32 pm
I think this stuff about Kim Jong-Il living in luxury while his people starve sounds like western propaganda. There were severe food shortages in the 90s. The DPRK was pretty dependent on trade relations with the Soviet bloc. When the USSR disappeared this caused real problems JUST LIKE IN CUBA. There are signs that the DPRK has got back on its feet since then. We need to investigate more, analyse more. I don't understand why so much right-wing propaganda is recycled on an allegedly socialist website without more analysis. The correct path is to make a united front with all those resisting imperialism, like the DPRK. The predominant anarchist and Trotskyist trends on this website just look like the ultimate in pseudo-revolutionary posturing. Trotskyism and anarchism are just a left-wing excuse for going along with the imperialist line that keeps those in the west (where 90% of Trotskyists and anarchists live) rich and the rest of the world poor.
Because the capitalism ideology already penetrated their marrow.

But, I thought the genuine communist should not with the anarchism,
the Trotskyite cooperate.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by china studen
But, I thought the genuine communist should not with the anarchism,
the Trotskyite cooperate.

Why?

And why arent anarchist/trotskyists 'genuine' communists?

[Question everything]

Then, I seriously ask you to reply: You thought how western the media
did know Kim Jong Il likes watching the American movie?
You must know that,Korea is extremely strict to foreigner's management, the
passenger is cannot go out at will.
Who has the capacity to Kim Jong Il familiar?

umm... yea they have footage inside Korea, of North Koreans with western sybols (exsample- Mickey Mouse, Nike... etc) and they have footage of Kim Il Jong Showing off his collection of western movies

[Enragé]

The scientist has not gone to the universe, but they have the certain
understanding to the universe. Marx has not experienced the socialism
society, but his talent elaborated this kind of form of society.


Scientists theorise on what is in the universe, marx theorised on how socialism would be.
You claim for a fact that the DPRK is a good country.

Look, i'm not even wanting to get you to think the DPRK is a bad country, for starters i just want you to think critically about the DPRK's propaganda.


Truly, I believed North Korean the propaganda, you believe western the
propaganda. But we have a difference. I have listened to Korea's
propaganda, also has listened to the western propaganda. But you have
only listened to the western propaganda. In other words you are not
many to Korea's propaganda contact.


Heh.
I have read, listened to, watched plenty of North Korean propaganda.
It is grotesque, it worships one man above all, it is militaristic, suffocating, uniform.
North Korean propaganda does not convince me it is a good country, on the contrary, it convinces me, far more than any western propaganda could, if the severity of North Korea's anti-communism.


This is not "forces the people to keep some place". The North Korean
may travel, but must report to the department concerned, in the
ordinary circumstances, the long journey all is permits.

Why, if they may travel, why do they have to report it to the department concerned? Thats how criminals on probation are treated!


But you must be aware that Korean tourists visited (whether left or right) Why can feel a common fact : Korean people are in favor of Kim Jong Il?
If Korea people is under political pressure to camouflage these feelings Are tourists feel?
Even in some not "mask", the Korean people would heartfelt tribute to their leader.
In addition, I suggest you look at the death of Kim Il Sung, in Pyongyang around the coffins on board the film, the whole film has six, every 30 minutes, people wept and almost all the scenes were shot. Unless from the bottom of my heart, this is not pretend.


I dont know. I have never met anyone from North Korea, or someone who has been there.
But even if it is the case, many in germany loved hitler too. Im sure many in china like the present government as well. Thats called indoctrination, and doesnt mean it is a good country.


I may tell you: Starts from the 90's, China has the rebellion, the
disturbance every year. Specially 21 worlds starts. China now the
average several days has a time of strike, the protest, the
disturbance. According to mine understanding, the city which I lives
has the external personnel in these years to create a disturbance, the
farmer opposed the government seizes the land the protest, opposition
embezzlement sitting in meditation. The Voice of America, the free
Asian broadcasting station also frequently reported these news, you do
not know? This only can explain you lack the effective information
channel.

I know all this, but it is kept quiet as much as possible, behind the facade of China's "prosperity" and "stability".

Since the DPRK is even more closed off, we cannot know if there are rebellions or not.


Did the head of state suddenly pass away cannot have the influence to
the country?
The Korean people suddenly heard this sorrowful news, therefore was extremely depressed, including the energy which worked all does not have. Even some old people because of are sorrowful excessively died.
This kind to the leader sincere sentiment, you is understands with difficulty.

In socialism, there should be no head of state as such. Not to be adored like that in any case. The country is built by the workers, should be governed by the workers, so the only ones worthy of praise are the workers as a collective, not someone calling himself "The Great Leader".

[China studen]

Originally posted by black rose+February 13, 2007 04:16 pm--> (black rose @ February 13, 2007 04:16 pm)
china studen
But, I thought the genuine communist should not with the anarchism,
the Trotskyite cooperate.

Why?

And why arent anarchist/trotskyists 'genuine' communists? [/b]
Their theory has violated genuine Marx-Leninism.
They are the ultra-leftist, their theory cannot obtain the majority of people's
approval.

[China studen]

Originally posted by Question [email protected] 13, 2007 09:49 pm

Then, I seriously ask you to reply: You thought how western the media
did know Kim Jong Il likes watching the American movie?
You must know that,Korea is extremely strict to foreigner's management, the
passenger is cannot go out at will.
Who has the capacity to Kim Jong Il familiar?

umm... yea they have footage inside Korea, of North Koreans with western sybols (exsample- Mickey Mouse, Nike... etc) and they have footage of Kim Il Jong Showing off his collection of western movies
Evidence? Please provide to me to watch.

[China studen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 10:57 pm

The scientist has not gone to the universe, but they have the certain
understanding to the universe. Marx has not experienced the socialism
society, but his talent elaborated this kind of form of society.


Scientists theorise on what is in the universe, marx theorised on how socialism would be.
You claim for a fact that the DPRK is a good country.

Look, i'm not even wanting to get you to think the DPRK is a bad country, for starters i just want you to think critically about the DPRK's propaganda.


Truly, I believed North Korean the propaganda, you believe western the
propaganda. But we have a difference. I have listened to Korea's
propaganda, also has listened to the western propaganda. But you have
only listened to the western propaganda. In other words you are not
many to Korea's propaganda contact.


Heh.
I have read, listened to, watched plenty of North Korean propaganda.
It is grotesque, it worships one man above all, it is militaristic, suffocating, uniform.
North Korean propaganda does not convince me it is a good country, on the contrary, it convinces me, far more than any western propaganda could, if the severity of North Korea's anti-communism.


This is not "forces the people to keep some place". The North Korean
may travel, but must report to the department concerned, in the
ordinary circumstances, the long journey all is permits.

Why, if they may travel, why do they have to report it to the department concerned? Thats how criminals on probation are treated!


But you must be aware that Korean tourists visited (whether left or right) Why can feel a common fact : Korean people are in favor of Kim Jong Il?
If Korea people is under political pressure to camouflage these feelings Are tourists feel?
Even in some not "mask", the Korean people would heartfelt tribute to their leader.
In addition, I suggest you look at the death of Kim Il Sung, in Pyongyang around the coffins on board the film, the whole film has six, every 30 minutes, people wept and almost all the scenes were shot. Unless from the bottom of my heart, this is not pretend.


I dont know. I have never met anyone from North Korea, or someone who has been there.
But even if it is the case, many in germany loved hitler too. Im sure many in china like the present government as well. Thats called indoctrination, and doesnt mean it is a good country.


I may tell you: Starts from the 90's, China has the rebellion, the
disturbance every year. Specially 21 worlds starts. China now the
average several days has a time of strike, the protest, the
disturbance. According to mine understanding, the city which I lives
has the external personnel in these years to create a disturbance, the
farmer opposed the government seizes the land the protest, opposition
embezzlement sitting in meditation. The Voice of America, the free
Asian broadcasting station also frequently reported these news, you do
not know? This only can explain you lack the effective information
channel.

I know all this, but it is kept quiet as much as possible, behind the facade of China's "prosperity" and "stability".

Since the DPRK is even more closed off, we cannot know if there are rebellions or not.


Did the head of state suddenly pass away cannot have the influence to
the country?
The Korean people suddenly heard this sorrowful news, therefore was extremely depressed, including the energy which worked all does not have. Even some old people because of are sorrowful excessively died.
This kind to the leader sincere sentiment, you is understands with difficulty.

In socialism, there should be no head of state as such. Not to be adored like that in any case. The country is built by the workers, should be governed by the workers, so the only ones worthy of praise are the workers as a collective, not someone calling himself "The Great Leader".
I have the reason to judge the thing. If I contact anything to
believe, then, present I possibly am the right wing, the Trotskyite or extremely the left wing.

This is one kind "the household register system". Is facilitates the management population for the government. This suits the population quantity many socialist countries the national condition. China's now still had this kind of system the trace.

However, the world is a country where national leaders can be so unanimously in love? (60 years is not changed) l
s the embodiment of the superiority of socialism, collectivism victory. If the Korean people do not unite, they might collapse in the early 1990s.

But this is a special situation. North Korea in the ancient times was
China's dependent country, afterwards became Japanese the colony. Is
Kim Il Sung constructs Korea great socialist countries. The Kim
Il Sung 13 years old join the revolution, finally has expelled the
Japanese. He causes world many countries the people envy North Korea.
He founded the great thought. He causes Korea to become the
industrialized country, in the short several dozens years, he causes
the lives of the people at the heaven. (Although the 90's later
appeared the economic crisis. But this will be the later matter)
lf the people wholeheartedly will mourn the extraordinary personality
which they will convalesce. Why does this have to blame the
government?

[Question everything]

North Koreas Gave up worshiping God inorder to properly lick the great leader's boots. :lol:

[Enragé]

This is one kind "the household register system". Is facilitates the management population for the government. This suits the population quantity many socialist countries the national condition. China's now still had this kind of system the trace.


What?
How does this negate the right people should have to go wherever they want?
I dont care if china used to have it, china never was communist or socialist either.


However, the world is a country where national leaders can be so unanimously in love? (60 years is not changed) l
s the embodiment of the superiority of socialism, collectivism victory.

No, its not. Its the embodiment of totalitarianism and the effects of propaganda and oppression to those who think differently.

To have a "Great Leader", whether it is Mao, or Kim Jung Il, or Trotsky, or Kropotkin is inherently anti-communist, anti-socialist.


Is
Kim Il Sung constructs Korea great socialist countries. The Kim
Il Sung 13 years old join the revolution, finally has expelled the
Japanese. He causes world many countries the people envy North Korea.
He founded the great thought. He causes Korea to become the
industrialized country, in the short several dozens years, he causes
the lives of the people at the heaven.

No he didnt
Who built North Korea, who built the houses, the factories, the roads, the railways, who built and make up the army?
the workers, NOT Kim Jung Il.

Or do you think Kim Jung Il did everything and everyone just sat by "hey look at Kim making everything for us"?


lf the people wholeheartedly will mourn the extraordinary personality
which they will convalesce. Why does this have to blame the
government?

Because as explained earlier, the leader didnt do it, the government didnt do it, the workers did!
That people are so brainwashed reminds me of capitalist society, where people talk of a boss of a business as someone who "built his company"...while clearly the workers did.

[The Author]

Originally posted by [email protected] February 14, 2007, 12:30 p.m.
the embodiment of totalitarianism

Oh Jesus Christ, there is no such thing as "totalitarianism"! See one of my earlier posts (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=59520&st=25&#entry1292220341), in which I quoted another member on what the definition of totalitarianism is.

---


I just love it how people on the one hand say "we've never visited the D.P.R.K. (or Cuba, take your pick), so we don't know too much about the country and its social system." Yet on the other hand, these same people jump on the anti-communist bandwagon and say (as if it were irrefutible fact!) that the D.P.R.K. (or Cuba) are not socialist, is 100% capitalist, state-capitalist, (insert random anti-communist, Anarcho-Trotskyite phrase here), etc. Like others who pointed out on this thread earlier, we need more facts before passing judgment!

[Fawkes]

Their theory has violated genuine Marx-Leninism.
So what, you think M-Lism is the only genuine communist theory?

[Enragé]

Oh Jesus Christ, there is no such thing as "totalitarianism"! See one of my earlier posts, in which I quoted another member on what the definition of totalitarianism is.

totalitarianism is a system in which a single body (whether it is a man, a party, or the state) controls society not only on the political playing field, but also the cultural one. It basicly controls the entirety of public life.


I just love it how people on the one hand say "we've never visited the D.P.R.K. (or Cuba, take your pick), so we don't know too much about the country and its social system." Yet on the other hand, these same people jump on the anti-communist bandwagon and say (as if it were irrefutible fact!) that the D.P.R.K. (or Cuba) are not socialist, is 100% capitalist, state-capitalist, (insert random anti-communist, Anarcho-Trotskyite phrase here), etc. Like others who pointed out on this thread earlier, we need more facts before passing judgment

Read my post again.
Never did i say that the DPRK is totalitarian.

I just said that
"However, the world is a country where national leaders can be so unanimously in love? (60 years is not changed)"
is not the embodiment of socialism, but the embodiment of totalitarianism

[China studen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 06:18 pm

Their theory has violated genuine Marx-Leninism.
So what, you think M-Lism is the only genuine communist theory?
Right. Only Marxism-Leninism（Perhaps including Mao） is truly correct Scientific Communism.

[BreadBros]

China Student, in regards to your question on the decadence of Kim Jong-Il compared to most of the Korean populace...

First of all, here are two news articles you should read:
http://article.joins.com/article/article.a...450717&ctg=1000 (http://article.joins.com/article/article.asp?total_id=2450717&ctg=1000) (in Korean)
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,...1999378,00.html (http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1999378,00.html) (in English)
Kim Jong-Il's niece recently committed suicide in Paris, she was there after having been sent to study there. The article also states that 3 of Kim Jong-Il's sons have been sent abroad to study and the North Korean state is now rewarding individuals for good service by stationing them overseas. How does Kim Jong-Il afford to have his relatives educated at elite institutions in France if he is not incredibly wealthy? Even in the United States you have to be VERY VERY wealthy to be able to sent your children abroad to study at boarding schools.
Here is the wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang_Geum-song

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1907197.stm


Konstantin Pulikovsky, a Russian emissary who travelled with Mr Kim by train across Russia reported that the North Korean leader had live lobsters air-lifted to the train every day which he ate with silver chopsticks.

The two men shared champagne with a bevy of female companions of "utmost beauty and intelligence", according to Mr Pulikovsky.

Mr Kim also has a reputation as a drinker. He was seen draining 10 glasses of wine during his 2000 summit with the South Korean President Kim Dae-jung and is known to have a taste for Hennessy VSOP cognac.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by China studen+February 15, 2007 01:15 am--> (China studen @ February 15, 2007 01:15 am)
Originally posted by black [email protected] 13, 2007 04:16 pm

china studen
But, I thought the genuine communist should not with the anarchism,
the Trotskyite cooperate.

Why?

And why arent anarchist/trotskyists 'genuine' communists?
Their theory has violated genuine Marx-Leninism.
They are the ultra-leftist, their theory cannot obtain the majority of people's
approval. [/b]
Leninism is only one of many theoretical strands of Marxism, and only one school of communist thought generally; it is not some kind of supreme truth, or Infallible doctrine - there is no such thing as as a one 'true' or 'genuine' school of communist thought; such an idea is an of itself anti-materialist.

As for gaining the peoples approval, who are you to declare what ideas the people will or will not accept?

The anarchist revolution in Spain shows that anarchist ideas can be accepted by the majority of the people, and further, put into practice successfully.

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by China studen+February 14, 2007 10:12 pm--> (China studen @ February 14, 2007 10:12 pm)
[email protected] 14, 2007 06:18 pm

Their theory has violated genuine Marx-Leninism.
So what, you think M-Lism is the only genuine communist theory?
Right. Only Marxism-Leninism（Perhaps including Mao） is truly correct Scientific Communism. [/b]
Bull-fuckin'-shit. You can't say that because no communist theories have ever been successful.

[China studen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 05:24 pm

This is one kind "the household register system". Is facilitates the management population for the government. This suits the population quantity many socialist countries the national condition. China's now still had this kind of system the trace.


What?
How does this negate the right people should have to go wherever they want?
I dont care if china used to have it, china never was communist or socialist either.


However, the world is a country where national leaders can be so unanimously in love? (60 years is not changed) l
s the embodiment of the superiority of socialism, collectivism victory.

No, its not. Its the embodiment of totalitarianism and the effects of propaganda and oppression to those who think differently.

To have a "Great Leader", whether it is Mao, or Kim Jung Il, or Trotsky, or Kropotkin is inherently anti-communist, anti-socialist.


Is
Kim Il Sung constructs Korea great socialist countries. The Kim
Il Sung 13 years old join the revolution, finally has expelled the
Japanese. He causes world many countries the people envy North Korea.
He founded the great thought. He causes Korea to become the
industrialized country, in the short several dozens years, he causes
the lives of the people at the heaven.

No he didnt
Who built North Korea, who built the houses, the factories, the roads, the railways, who built and make up the army?
the workers, NOT Kim Jung Il.

Or do you think Kim Jung Il did everything and everyone just sat by "hey look at Kim making everything for us"?


lf the people wholeheartedly will mourn the extraordinary personality
which they will convalesce. Why does this have to blame the
government?

Because as explained earlier, the leader didnt do it, the government didnt do it, the workers did!
That people are so brainwashed reminds me of capitalist society, where people talk of a boss of a business as someone who "built his company"...while clearly the workers did.
I have repeatedly explained to you : In the current world, not everyone has the freedom to go anywhere else!
In the planned economy, the government must grasp local conditions, such as the number of the population. This can be fair, reasonable distribution of material. In addition, the activities also help to restrict the city's arbitrary order. Now, the Chinese people living in cities are nervous every time out. because of the mobility of the population have no control.

Therefore, raises many security issues. China is a socialist country in the Mao Zedong era.

Then I would like to ask : Why are other "totalitarian" regime failure. Korea is so successful? The only one special?

Korea has never denied working class in the excellent performance of actual production. But, who is to lead the people in achieving independence? Who ordered the army to defeat the U.S. aggressors? Who diligence to run around the country, encouraging people to rebuild their country?

China has launched the 1960 "Great Leap Forward." At that time, people are loyal to Chairman Mao, full of enthusiasm for the labor. But the policy that is wrong, but the economy is even worse.

In Korea, Kim Il Sung, the people are full of confidence, but he reasonably. Korea has the right economic policies of rapid economic growth, like "horses."

[Black Dagger]

China studen, why do you support Pol Pot?

[China studen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 01:55 pm
China Student, in regards to your question on the decadence of Kim Jong-Il compared to most of the Korean populace...

First of all, here are two news articles you should read:
http://article.joins.com/article/article.a...450717&ctg=1000 (http://article.joins.com/article/article.asp?total_id=2450717&ctg=1000) (in Korean)
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,...1999378,00.html (http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1999378,00.html) (in English)
Kim Jong-Il's niece recently committed suicide in Paris, she was there after having been sent to study there. The article also states that 3 of Kim Jong-Il's sons have been sent abroad to study and the North Korean state is now rewarding individuals for good service by stationing them overseas. How does Kim Jong-Il afford to have his relatives educated at elite institutions in France if he is not incredibly wealthy? Even in the United States you have to be VERY VERY wealthy to be able to sent your children abroad to study at boarding schools.
Here is the wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang_Geum-song

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1907197.stm


Konstantin Pulikovsky, a Russian emissary who travelled with Mr Kim by train across Russia reported that the North Korean leader had live lobsters air-lifted to the train every day which he ate with silver chopsticks.

The two men shared champagne with a bevy of female companions of "utmost beauty and intelligence", according to Mr Pulikovsky.

Mr Kim also has a reputation as a drinker. He was seen draining 10 glasses of wine during his 2000 summit with the South Korean President Kim Dae-jung and is known to have a taste for Hennessy VSOP cognac.
You are playing tricks on me? I need: "Kim Jong Il likes watches the
American movie" the movie.

What do you give me the such many western media the report to have to
use? If the western media report is credible. This world was not the
present appearance.

[China studen]

Originally posted by black rose+February 15, 2007 02:56 pm--> (black rose @ February 15, 2007 02:56 pm)
Originally posted by China studen+February 15, 2007 01:15 am--> (China studen @ February 15, 2007 01:15 am)
black [email protected] 13, 2007 04:16 pm

china studen
But, I thought the genuine communist should not with the anarchism,
the Trotskyite cooperate.

Why?

And why arent anarchist/trotskyists 'genuine' communists?
Their theory has violated genuine Marx-Leninism.
They are the ultra-leftist, their theory cannot obtain the majority of people's
approval. [/b]
Leninism is only one of many theoretical strands of Marxism, and only one school of communist thought generally; it is not some kind of supreme truth, or Infallible doctrine - there is no such thing as as a one 'true' or 'genuine' school of communist thought; such an idea is an of itself anti-materialist.

As for gaining the peoples approval, who are you to declare what ideas the people will or will not accept?

The anarchist revolution in Spain shows that anarchist ideas can be accepted by the majority of the people, and further, put into practice successfully. [/b]
I just want to note the words : I think (and that the majority of communists) -- Marxism-Leninism is the true inheritor.

If Western Marxism, Trotsky Marxism, anarchism is feasible. Why do they have never tried to deny the regime?

Facts have proved that Marxism-Leninism is the mainstream, and the majority of communist support.

[China studen]

Originally posted by Fawkes+February 15, 2007 09:28 pm--> (Fawkes @ February 15, 2007 09:28 pm)
Originally posted by China [email protected] 14, 2007 10:12 pm

[email protected] 14, 2007 06:18 pm

Their theory has violated genuine Marx-Leninism.
So what, you think M-Lism is the only genuine communist theory?
Right. Only Marxism-Leninism（Perhaps including Mao） is truly correct Scientific Communism.
Bull-fuckin'-shit. You can't say that because no communist theories have ever been successful. [/b]
You stupid droppings!

Korea, Cuba (Nepal is forthcoming)still implemented the socialism, the socialism
was the communism initial stage.

[China studen]

Originally posted by black [email protected] 16, 2007 12:51 pm
China studen, why do you support Pol Pot?
Pol Pot, I know there are many mistakes. He also attacked most of the communists.

But I think that he made an independent Cambodian his aggression against the United States, he heroically resisted the Vietnamese invasion. These contributions, it seems that the law is being ignored.

In addition, from the point of view of historical materialism. Commenting on a figure we should also take into account the historical background. In those years, international widespread extreme leftist ideas, it has also affected him.

Moreover, although the policy mistakes. But he is a good starting point, he wants his own prosperity of the country. Regretted that the opposite.

I have more sympathy for his old age, he was a traitor incarcerated.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by china studen+--> (china studen)I just want to note the words : I think (and that the majority of communists) -- Marxism-Leninism is the true inheritor.[/b]

As i said before,

Leninism is only one of many theoretical strands of Marxism, and only one school of communist thought generally; it is not some kind of supreme truth, or Infallible doctrine - there is no such thing as as a one 'true' or 'genuine' school of communist thought; such an idea is an of itself anti-materialist.


Originally posted by china [email protected]

If Western Marxism, Trotsky Marxism, anarchism is feasible. Why do they have never tried to deny the regime?

Anarchism was tried successfully in Spain.


china studen

Facts have proved that Marxism-Leninism is the mainstream, and the majority of communist support.

Leninism is largely 'mainstream' because it was the official ideology of a super-power - it had the backing of powerful international force, the USSR, but being mainstream does not make Leninism more 'true' or genuine than any other school of communist thought; and the 'facts' have also shown that where Leninism has been implemented the result has been state-capitalism, and then eventually regular capitalism (as in China, Vietnam, eastern europe etc.)

[Honggweilo]

Originally posted by China studen+February 16, 2007 01:03 pm--> (China studen @ February 16, 2007 01:03 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 09:28 pm

Originally posted by China [email protected] 14, 2007 10:12 pm

[email protected] 14, 2007 06:18 pm

Their theory has violated genuine Marx-Leninism.
So what, you think M-Lism is the only genuine communist theory?
Right. Only Marxism-Leninism（Perhaps including Mao） is truly correct Scientific Communism.
Bull-fuckin'-shit. You can't say that because no communist theories have ever been successful.
You stupid droppings!

Korea, Cuba (Nepal is forthcoming)still implemented the socialism, the socialism
was the communism initial stage. [/b]
They surely have undergone the scientific test of practice and developed through time. And basically its quite logical for a marxist-leninist to say that his ideology is true scientific socialism, since everyone is convinced by their own ideology. Al the left-communst/cliffite trots/"independent" marxist ect.. claim the same thing of their own ideology by constantly repeating their vision on "true communism/socialism" (which have in most cases not stood the test of practice and therefore isnt yet scientifically proven and is, as BR himself points out, anti-materialist).

[Black Dagger]

Please dont' pretend that marxism is a science, its embarrassing for revleftists generally.

[Honggweilo]

Originally posted by black [email protected] 16, 2007 01:21 pm
Please dont' pretend that marxism is a science, its embarrassing for revleftists generally.
then what is it then :huh: ? since when is an ideology based on philosophy, political and social economics not a science? Metaphysic idealism then? what kind of comment is that?

[apathy maybe]

I am alright. Fawkes is just a FUCK WIT! But anyway ...



Originally posted by Black Dagger
Please dont' pretend that marxism is a science, its embarrassing for revleftists generally.I agree.


In addition, from the point of view of historical materialism. Commenting on a figure we should also take into account the historical background. In those years, international widespread extreme leftist ideas, it has also affected him.Historical materialism is fucked. That isn't going to make me many friends, but I had to say it.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by ddxt301+February 16, 2007 11:26 pm--> (ddxt301 @ February 16, 2007 11:26 pm)
black [email protected] 16, 2007 01:21 pm
Please dont' pretend that marxism is a science, its embarrassing for revleftists generally.
then what is it then :huh: ? since when is an ideology based on philosophy, political and social economics not a science? Metaphysic idealism then? what kind of comment is that? [/b]
Marxists as modernists love the idea of marxism being a 'science', because science in their minds provides the ultimate in intellectual credibility. Whilst marxism may have 'scientific' emphasises in its philosophy (the emphasis on materialism for example), that does not make marxism itself an actual science --> it is a socio-political philosophy; try asking your science teacher if marxism is a 'science', see what they say ;)

[The Author]

From the Merriam-Webster dictionary on the definition of "science:"


1 : the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding
2 a : a department of systematized knowledge as an object of study <the science of theology> b : something (as a sport or technique) that may be studied or learned like systematized knowledge <have it down to a science>
3 a : knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method b : such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena : NATURAL SCIENCE
4 : a system or method reconciling practical ends with scientific laws <cooking is both a science and an art>
5 capitalized : CHRISTIAN SCIENCE

If we study this definition, we can see that Marxism definitely is a science, as it is a system of knowledge which was tested successfully in practice. A social science studied and used by the working class, to be precise.


Originally posted by black [email protected] February 16, 2007, 11:20 pm
try asking your science teacher if marxism is a &#39;science&#39;, see what they say

He will probably naturally tell you that "Communism is dead," "millions of people died in prisons," "individual rights are violated by Communists," etc. I&#39;d think a little more critically before asking the science teacher a question such as that one.

[China studen]

Originally posted by black rose+February 16, 2007 01:11 pm--> (black rose @ February 16, 2007 01:11 pm)
Originally posted by china studen+--> (china studen)I just want to note the words : I think (and that the majority of communists) -- Marxism-Leninism is the true inheritor.[/b]

As i said before,

Leninism is only one of many theoretical strands of Marxism, and only one school of communist thought generally; it is not some kind of supreme truth, or Infallible doctrine - there is no such thing as as a one &#39;true&#39; or &#39;genuine&#39; school of communist thought; such an idea is an of itself anti-materialist.


china [email protected]

If Western Marxism, Trotsky Marxism, anarchism is feasible. Why do they have never tried to deny the regime?

Anarchism was tried successfully in Spain.


china studen

Facts have proved that Marxism-Leninism is the mainstream, and the majority of communist support.

Leninism is largely &#39;mainstream&#39; because it was the official ideology of a super-power - it had the backing of powerful international force, the USSR, but being mainstream does not make Leninism more &#39;true&#39; or genuine than any other school of communist thought; and the &#39;facts&#39; have also shown that where Leninism has been implemented the result has been state-capitalism, and then eventually regular capitalism (as in China, Vietnam, eastern europe etc.) [/b]
I did not say that it is "the eternal, divine truth." I just stressed : Marxism-Leninism recognized by the majority of communists. People&#39;s eyes are discerning.

Anarchism in Spain successful? When? Spain&#39;s civil war when? But then, Marxism-Leninism and so many of the factions involved in the war. Moreover, the results of a conspiracy or Franco.

Indeed, Leninism has been the official propaganda. But those who do not seize power in the country-Leninism is also very popular. For example, Peru, Colombia, the Philippines, Nepal.

Soviet Union, China, Eastern Europe, Vietnam&#39;s failure has nothing to do with Leninism. Khrushchev revisionism in the Soviet Union, when it has become (gradual transition to capitalism) countries. Deng Xiaoping in China often. Vietnam Le Duan often. Moreover,Korea and Cuba are still very strong.

[Guerrilla22]

No let&#39;s not engage in a debate about whether or not Marxism is scientific or not. Next we&#39;ll be debating whether or not political science is really a science and the arguments will only become more and more abstract. Let us just say that since many of Marx&#39;s conclusions about historical materialism have in fact proven to be true, then we can definitely say that yes, certain aspects of Marxist theory are scientific.

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by Kim Jong Il bored &#39;cause he no longer has nukes to play with
You stupid droppings&#33;

Korea, Cuba (Nepal is forthcoming)still implemented the socialism, the socialism
was the communism initial stage.

I don&#39;t appreciate being called "stupid droppings" :( :( :( .

I know that socialism is the initial stage, thank you very much.

So what if they implemented socialism, they have yet to reach communism which is why no communist ideology has ever been proven to work on a large scale.

ddxt301: Love the new sig quote ;) .

[apathy maybe]

Originally posted by CriticizeEverythingAlways+February 17, 2007 05:47 am--> (CriticizeEverythingAlways @ February 17, 2007 05:47 am) From the Merriam-Webster dictionary on the definition of "science:"


1 : the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding
2 a : a department of systematized knowledge as an object of study <the science of theology> b : something (as a sport or technique) that may be studied or learned like systematized knowledge <have it down to a science>
3 a : knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method b : such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena : NATURAL SCIENCE
4 : a system or method reconciling practical ends with scientific laws <cooking is both a science and an art>
5 capitalized : CHRISTIAN SCIENCE

If we study this definition, we can see that Marxism definitely is a science, as it is a system of knowledge which was tested successfully in practice. A social science studied and used by the working class, to be precise. [/b]
Firstly, using a dictionary to define science is like using a dictionary to define anarchism. It isn&#39;t going to work. A better option would be to actually go and read some philosophy of science. Feryaband, Kuhn, Popper and others. The fact is though, that none of these three actually presented a good explanation of what science is.

Definitions of science have to include what is considered now to be science, and also previous things that are also considered science. They shouldn&#39;t be too broad so as to included things that are not science (such as astrology).


Science isn&#39;t simply the "state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding", otherwise we could say that Newton&#39;s laws are not scientific. Because they are based on ignorance or misunderstanding. We could also say that my knowledge of how computers work is science using this definition. No it isn&#39;t.

All those definitions have problems. 3 is the best of the lot. If we take a, "knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method", that is good. But it leaves a lot to be desired. What is the "scientific method"? If we examine what Kuhn thought, virtually anything goes. If enough people agree with it. Feryaband does think anything goes. Obviously not everything is scientific method. Marxism does fit this definition to a point, however, these "general truths" have not been shown to be completely true. Not only that, it only fits parts of Marxism (not dialectical materialism for example, which many people think is an essential part of Marxism).

Onto the second part of that definition, b. "[S]uch knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena". Well no. Marxism doesn&#39;t fit this, as it isn&#39;t concerned with the physical world. People might argue that it is ... They mention materialism and so on. But the facts are that, despite us living in the physical world, not enough is understood about both individual psychology and interactions between individuals or individuals in large groups. Until psychology and sociology become "hard" sciences, Marxism will have no hope of fitting this second definition.

(And most real scientists don&#39;t consider any of the "social sciences" to be scientific. I don&#39;t have a problem with that, even though I am a "political scientist". We don&#39;t do science, no matter how much we make up theories and test them.)



Originally posted by black [email protected] February 16, 2007, 11:20 pm
try asking your science teacher if marxism is a &#39;science&#39;, see what they say

He will probably naturally tell you that "Communism is dead," "millions of people died in prisons," "individual rights are violated by Communists," etc. I&#39;d think a little more critically before asking the science teacher a question such as that one.
Only if they are an arsehole. If your science teacher is an arsehole, find another one. And frankly, if they do come out with comments like that, complain to them that they aren&#39;t being helpful and are wandering outside the domains of both the question and the area of their expertise, and complain to the principle that they are an arsehole.

None of my teachers would have given me crap like that. If they didn&#39;t have an answer, most of them would have gone and looked one up for me. My science teachers would have been amazed that I was showing an interest in what science actually is (the philosophy of science) while I was still at school.



Guerrilla22
No let&#39;s not engage in a debate about whether or not Marxism is scientific or not. Next we&#39;ll be debating whether or not political science is really a science and the arguments will only become more and more abstract. Let us just say that since many of Marx&#39;s conclusions about historical materialism have in fact proven to be true, then we can definitely say that yes, certain aspects of Marxist theory are scientific.Or in fact simply good guess work. The mere cataloguing of facts is not science.

Political science is not scientific, neither is Marxism. As I said above, certain aspects of Marxism can be considered "scientific" by some definitions, but by no means all.

[Enragé]

I have repeatedly explained to you : In the current world, not everyone has the freedom to go anywhere else&#33;

Yes, but that does not make it right.

In the current world capitalism is dominant.
Does that make capitalism right?
ofcourse not.


In the planned economy, the government must grasp local conditions, such as the number of the population

Emigration is only a problem when significant amounts of people leave, now, should significant amounts of people leave if it was made illegal then it shows that the government of the DPRK is not loved.

In other words, control of emigration is only necessary in a country where the government is not loved, where life is so shitty people rather leave than stay
So the logical conclusion is; the DPRK is a bad country.


China is a socialist country in the Mao Zedong era.

No, if it was it would have been the "Workers&#39; Era" not the "Mao Zedong Era".


Korea is so successful? The only one special?


in what way is korea succesful?

Nazi germany was "succesful" too, it managed to conquer large parts of europe and murdered 10 million civilians
now is that something we want to emulate?
i think not.


But, who is to lead the people in achieving independence? Who ordered the army to defeat the U.S. aggressors? Who diligence to run around the country, encouraging people to rebuild their country?


The working class is perfectly capable of leading itself.
An order which is not obeyed is but a shout in the wind.

When people see the need to do things, such as rebuilding their country, they do so, if they do not, they dont.


China has launched the 1960 "Great Leap Forward." At that time, people are loyal to Chairman Mao, full of enthusiasm for the labor. But the policy that is wrong, but the economy is even worse.


yes, and why was it so disastrous?
Because people were afraid to say it actually was a disaster, because if they did they might be branded a traitor. False reports about the harvest were given out, because if they did not produce enough, they were traitors.


Anarchism in Spain successful? When? Spain&#39;s civil war when?

between &#39;36 and &#39;39 the war raged. The "Marxist-Leninists" stabbed the anarchists in the back, who actually put the whole "land to the peasants&#33; factories to the workers&#33;" thing in practice

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_spain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War

statistical information regarding the extent of the collectivisation;
http://libcom.org/library/statistical-info...nish-revolution (http://libcom.org/library/statistical-information-on-socialisation-in-the-spanish-revolution)

[Guerrilla22]

Political science is not scientific, neither is Marxism. As I said above, certain aspects of Marxism can be considered "scientific" by some definitions, but by no means all.

Not to get way off topic, but politcal science is a science. Its a social science, in that politcal scientist come to their conclusions through scientific analyisis.

[black magick hustla]

marxism is is an approach to sociology and economics, it is soft science.

however marxism is not a hard science.

[apathy maybe]

OK, so staying off topic. Guerrilla22 you are correct when you say that Marxism is a social science. But I don&#39;t consider the social sciences to be scientific. Yes they may use the scientific method (whatever that is), but the fact remains that not enough is known about human behaviour either in large groups or small ones for them to be classified as a "hard science". And frankly, I don&#39;t consider any of the social sciences to be really science.

In the hard sciences (chemistry for example) there is a large mass of knowledge that is undisputed and that can be tested at any time (and frequently is by school students). Whenever you add Sodium Chloride to water, it dissolves giving sodium ions and chloride ions. This happens every single time.

However, none of the social sciences have such a large body of knowledge. Even where there is undisputed knowledge (such as about some aspects of human behaviour), there are disputes about why it happens. And knowing why is a much a part of science as simply knowing that something happens.

When the social sciences are up to the standard of even Newtonian physics (which is completely wrong by Einsteinian standards), in regards to the level of predictive capability, then I will concede that they are really sciences.

[Guerrilla22]

In the hard sciences (chemistry for example) there is a large mass of knowledge that is undisputed and that can be tested at any time (and frequently is by school students). Whenever you add Sodium Chloride to water, it dissolves giving sodium ions and chloride ions. This happens every single time.

In some instances. There are many other instances within the so-called "hard sciences" were the conclusions reached are deducted from logical analysis, therfore they are theory. Not every conclusion reached by these sciences can be varified by testing, not even close. Therefore if you except for example, chemistry as a science you have to accept sociology, physchology and politcal science as sciences.

[black magick hustla]

the thing is that many approaches in sociology can be completely wrong, while not so many approaches in mainsream chemistry are wrong.

you cannot compare both. you cannot have controlled experimentation in economics--there are just so many people, and so many forces that influence economic forces.

[Guerrilla22]

No, but you can have scientific analysis, which has been my point all along.

[refuse_resist]

I thought I would share this NLG report that was written in 2003, which is fairly recent. I&#39;m hoping some of you will find it informative...

[QUOTE]NORTH KOREA: THE GRAND DECEPTION REVEALED

The Preliminary Report of the October 2003 National Lawyers Guild/American Association of

Jurists Delegation to the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea

I. The Delegation and its Purpose
II. First Impressions
III. The Role of Lawyers
IV. War Crimes
V. The Demilitarized Zone (DMZ)
VI. The Countryside and Hours of Talk
VII. The Circus
VIII. Human Exchanges
IX. Particular Observations
A. The Juche idea of Socialism
B. The Role of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il
C. The Legal System
D. Education
E. Health Care
F. Housing
G. Work Conditions
H. Political System
I. Military Service
J. Reunification
K. The Role of Women
X. War and Peace
XI. Final Observations and Future Activities

I. The Delegation and its Purpose

On September 29th, 2003 four lawyers from the National Lawyers Guild of the United States, Peter Erlinder, Professor of Law at the William Mitchell School of Law in St. Paul, Minnesota, Neil Berman, Attorney in Boston, Massachusetts and Eric Sirotkin and Jennie Lusk, Attorneys in Albuquerque, New Mexico as well as a member of the American Association of Jurists, Christopher Black, Barrister in Toronto, Canada, traveled to North Korea, formally the Democratic Peoples’ Republic of Korea (DPRK) at the invitation of the Korean Democratic Lawyers Association (KDLA).

We came to North Korea in order to increase bonds between lawyers in North Korea and the west, as well as to increase understanding between the peoples of North America and North Korea in order to reduce the risk of war between the DPRK and the United States of America.

The visit had several specific purposes: (1) to develop personal and professional relationships with lawyers in North Korea with a view toward understanding their legal system and its role in society, (2) to determine and understand the views of the people of the DPRK with respect to war and peace and its link to the problem of reunification of the “two” Koreas, and (3) to observe as best we could the real situation for the people of the DKRP in the context of the information being propagated in the western press of an Orwellian, totalitarian, impoverished and starving society - allegations which have been used by the United States to justify all its recent wars of aggression. We felt it essential to let the North Koreans know that many Americans and Canadians have a deep desire for peace and oppose the rhetorical “axis of evil” posture announced by the current U.S. administration.


Most of us met in Beijing as virtual strangers, but we parted company days later as friends, transformed by our experience. We came from different backgrounds, different areas of law and represented several political and philosophical points of view. We had one essential thing in common; the real fear of a war between the United States and the DPRK and a deep desire to know the truth. All felt misled over the years by the U.S. government through its misinformation used to justify wars against Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq. We no longer accept bald allegations of “widespread violations of human rights”, the need for a “war on terrorism”, war to destroy “weapons of mass destruction,” or the need to fight wars to preserve and expand our Western way of life. As world citizens we felt obliged to reveal the truth and to take steps to build, rather than destroy, relationships, even with those whom we may disagree.

The delegation met with KDLA members, government officials and military officers, and discussed comparative judicial systems and strategies for building bridges for peace between DPRK and the United States. We toured Pyongyang, traveled hundreds of kilometers into the countryside, visited the Demilitarized Zone (DMZ) on the Northern side at the infamous joint use area of Panmunjom, and interviewed U.S. soldiers and business consultants from around the world who, much to our surprise, were discovered working in North Korea,

II. First Impressions

On September 29th we went to the embassy of the DPRK in Beijing to obtain our visas. It was there that our eyes first began to open. Also waiting for visas were a young Irishman who wanted to tour the country and a Canadian representative of Saskatchewan farmers providing aid to North Korean farmers, whose aid is matched by the Canadian government four to one. Before leaving to North Korea we had already become aware of the many nations in Europe and across the planet that have formal diplomatic relations with the DPRK, but we were not ready for the many international contacts we would make over the next week.

On September 30th we went to the international airport at Beijing to board the Air Koryo plane to Pyongyang, the capital of North Korea. It was at the Beijing Airport that the image of an isolated country truly began to dissolve. In the check-in line and afterwards on board the full plane we met our Canadian Saskatchewan consultant, a Swede who was going to help farmers learn how to handle cows, a couple of Congolese diplomats, British journalists, a Russian establishing art exchanges, a teacher from Liverpool and, from the sound of the different accents, people from several other countries.

At the airport in Pyongyang we waited for some time while bags were x-rayed coming into the country. One member reported much of her nervousness dissolve as she waited in line and watched guards laughing and joking with each other. It was not a highly charged and intimidating scene, and was more relaxed than most U.S. airport security.

We were met by Mr. Jo Chol Ryong and Mr. Bang Gum Chan of the Korean Democratic Lawyers Association and taken in a small bus to a large guesthouse just outside the city. It was grey and misty but we tried to take in everything we saw. Our first impression of the city was that it was large city of two million, green, fairly modern, quite beautiful in parts especially near the Taedong River. There were more cars than we had heard about, but their relatively low numbers meant quiet streets with primarily pedestrians and cyclists. People appeared active and heading home after a days work, as in most countries for that time of day.

The initial impression of some off the delegation was that there was a feeling of tension hanging in the air, as if they had been at war for a long time. We received some very questioning stares, but these would become mixed with smiles and inquisitiveness. Some delegates felt tense and a bit disoriented, but this proved to be a clash between our initial fears and concerns, and the stark reality of where we were. As we would tour the country and cities in the next few days, and have more human exchanges, this would dissipate.

Throughout the days ahead we were moved by the level of North Korean pride and determination to overcome obstacles, including diplomatic and economic ones by the United States, and sympathized with their need for perpetual readiness for war and their experience of centuries of invasions and occupations. The Korean experience must be viewed through this lens.

Some of the buildings we passed were impressive in size and style. But we noticed right away the complete absence of any old-style buildings. Nothing in the city was older than 50 years and most was much newer. The American planes had bombed the entire city multiple times in the Korean War and obliterated virtually everything in it. Indeed U.S. reports cite a general ordering a stop to the bombing of Pyongyang since “nothing worthy of a name” was left standing. A 1951 international women’s delegation reported U.S. bombers shooting fleeing civilians in the North Korean countryside.

The Delegation questions why such carpet-bombing of civilian urban areas is rarely prosecuted as a war crime. Clearly in light of the photographs we saw, the leveling of entire cities and civilian targets stands as a heinous act equivalent to the bombing of London, Coventry, Rotterdam, Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo, and Hiroshima.
Upon arrival we had an unexpected experience. In the lobby of our guesthouse hotel was a large muscular fellow who was clearly not Korean. We asked where he was from and he said Hawaii. We were curious as to why there might be other Americans here and became more curious when he told us he was a Major with the U.S. Military. He was there with his unit on a joint project with the North Koreans to recover remains of U.S. soldiers during the Korean War. This seemed strange as we had been led to believe that we were on the verge of war with this country. Further discussions over the next few days with the soldiers in the unit served as important corroboration for our observations. The soldiers indicated that the DPRK was not what they had been led to expect, that people were very friendly to them and that they had traveled extensively in the countryside and the people appeared well fed. As we would also discover, they said. “Crops were growing everywhere,” In addition, it was surprising that the DPRK permitted the soldiers to install and use a radio to communicate with each other and the U.S. in our Pyongyang guest house.


III. The Role of Lawyers

After settling in we had a formal dinner with our hosts and a lawyer who was head of the Government Liaison for International NGOs, Mr. Ri Myong Kuk. He spoke of the DPRK’s Nuclear Deterrent Force being necessary in light of U.S. world actions. If the U.S. signed a peace treaty and non-aggression agreement with the DPRK, it would de-legitimize the presence of American troops in the South and lead to re-unification, he said. He then turned to all of our roles as lawyers, “It’s important that lawyers are gathering to talk about this as “lawyers regulate the social interactions within society and within the world.” He pointed out that our work parallels the responsibilities inherent on interactions between countries. He agreed that the path to peace includes “having to help open the heart.”

The delegation agree that lawyers have a key role to play in the current situation. The Korean standoff raises serious issues of international law that must be addressed. The history between the two nations is replete with promises and breached promises, something that lawyers deal with regularly. Simple promises, if they had been kept, could have changed the course of human history and despair on the peninsula. For example we read the armistice agreement signed at the DMZ in which Article IV promised, “within three months higher level meetings would be held to settle through negotiation the question of withdrawal of all foreign forces and peaceful settlement.” This was not accomplished because the U.S. refused to meet, despite requests over the years by the North Koreans to meet anywhere and anytime. Over fifty years later the troops remain and no peace treaty has been signed. South Korea never even signed the armistice agreement. The 1953 cease-fire agreement provided that both sides “shall not engage in any blockade of any kind of Korea.” This binding agreement appears to be violated by the U.S. conduct to intercept and discourage the transport of goods, food and other materials to the DPRK.

A lack of good faith in discussions, sometimes referenced in the law of contracts as a covenant of good faith and fair dealing, appears violated in many situations. Wendy Sherman, Clinton’s advisor on North Korea, had indicated that when they entered into the famous Agreed Framework of 1994, wherein the North Koreans would be trading their nuclear capability for two light water reactors and fuel oil, and in exchange for working toward normalizing political and economic relations, the Administration had no intention of complying with the agreement. The Clinton Administration believed the Kim Jong Il administration would collapse long before the U.S. had to provide the reactors. This lack of good faith in international relations surrounding a matter of such importance to the world would be against the common law if the breach of promises were between private parties.

Couple this with the Bush administration declaration of North Korea as a member of the “axis of evil,” and advocating regime change, and we realize that the U.S. must be held accountable for its failure to deal fairing and in good faith with the DPRK. Our research demonstrates that it was the United States that breached nearly all of its obligations under the 1994 Geneva Agreed Framework before the DPRK returned to its nuclear program. The delegation feels that the U.S. government cannot advocate the rule of law and democracy, when in fails to model it itself.

Clearly lawyers play an important part in pointing out breaches of agreements and violations of law, but more importantly we can help to demonstrate why trust has been violated by the conduct of the United States. Our group pondered what types of legal actions could be brought to illuminate the situation and bring peace. This will continue to be explored by the Project.

IV. War Crimes

On our first night we met in out hotel room to de-brief from arrival. The enormity of our task as North American lawyers in the DPRK at this moment in history was clear. As we shared our feelings and thoughts, suddenly the world faded to darkness. The power outage had us scrambling for flashlights, solar lamps supplied in our rooms and candles. It was a strange moment and the silence was a stunning reminder of the role technology plays in our lives. Before leaving we had read articles that claimed that this “hermit kingdom” had no power at night and was a dark spot from space. President Bush presents this map in speeches to claim that “the light of freedom” shines only in the South. Yet, we would learn over the next few nights, and even later that evening, that this too was an exaggeration. We had power throughout the other nights of our visit, and with the exception of an occasional rolling blackout for a few minutes, the lights do shine in Pyongyang. We also saw lights on in blocks of apartment buildings as we drove through Pyongyang at night. We suspect that the photo from space was taken during one of the blackouts.

The next day we were taken around Pyongyang by our hosts to the “Victorious Fatherland Liberation War Museum.” The first part of the Museum addresses the struggle against the Japanese from 1925 until liberation in 1945. The “second stage” of the war is devoted to the war against” U.S. Imperialist Aggressors” and the victory they assert the North Koreans achieved in the war. Clearly the North Koreans, along with some million-plus Chinese forces, did preserve their territory during the war, but at great costs.

Before leaving on the trip we researched extensively about the Korean War in an effort to better understand the feelings and motivations of the North Koreans. We had not realized the extent of the level of destruction and human suffering during the war. In Washington we have monuments to the 53,000 U.S. soldiers who died, but there were more than 3.5 million victims of the war, resulting in one in ten Koreans being wounded or killed. The New York Times reported that 17,000,000 pounds of Napalm were sent to Korea in the first 20 months of the war. The North also suffered years of US bombing that leveled nearly the entire Country. The U.S. commander halted the strikes near the end of the war because, he said, there was “nothing standing worthy of a name.” More bomb tonnage was dropped on Korea by the U.S. than they dropped on Japan in the entire Pacific action in World War II. One delegation member exclaimed before the trip “Can you imagine the pain, anger and mistrust of the equivalent to a twin towers attack in every neighborhood?”

The museum has a broad collection of documents, photos and physical evidence of war crimes committed by the United States and its U.N. allies in the Korean War. The museum holds many documents captured in the American embassy by North Korean forces when they overran South Korean defenses in Seoul. Assuming they are legitimate, which they appear to be, the documents are compelling evidence that the United States planned an attack on North Korea in 1950 and used the South Korean army to claim an attack by North Korea. This allowed the United States to persuade the UN Security Council to vote, in the absence of two of its permanent members, the USSR and China, for support for a UN action under US command to repel the “attack form the North.” The museum presented the vote as invalid because of the absence of the USSR and China, concluding that the U.S. manipulated the absences, rendering the entire “police operation” in Korea illegal. In addition, the conclusion was that the illegal action was a cover for the attempt by the United States to conquer and occupy North Korea with a view toward potential invasions of Manchuria and Siberia. Members of our group took notes of these documents and photographs.

We were later provided with the reports on US War Crimes committed in Korea compiled during the war itself by the International Association of Democratic Lawyers (IADL) in 1952 and the Report of the Committee of the Women’s International Democratic Federation in Korea in 1951. The National Lawyers Guild had been part of the IADL, which prepared their report in 1952. The reports are displayed prominently in the Museum and serve as important international legal corroboration of the DPRK positions.

The NLG delegation urges its membership to investigate further DPRK’s allegations that its protests of international law violations have been ignored by the United Nations. The international delegations in North Korea in 1951 and 1952 documented directly the violations, and DPRK evidence of biological and chemical warfare during the Korean War have been confirmed. The delegation urges that the 1951 and 1952 reports be reissued, offering the ill-informed people of the West another truth about the Korean War, and a means of understanding the reality of the fear Koreans live under every day, dreading and fearing a similar attack in the future.

It is important in international affairs to acknowledge and take responsibility for actions. The Japanese has had to express its “heartfelt apologies and remorse” over the pain inflicted in their occupation of Korea. The South African Truth and Reconciliation process has demonstrated that “without truth, you can have no reconciliation.” The atrocities committed under apartheid were exposed and the denial of the white community broken through the “truth” searching process.
The delegation concluded during this trip from their observations and the research already compiled that there were extensive violations of international law and possible war crimes committed during the Korean War that have never been prosecuted or exposed publicly. When the truth is more widely acknowledged, peace and understanding can follow.
The most graphic examples of war crimes became evident during over visit to the town of Sinchon in the province of Hwang Hoe. It was here that troops from the South and U.S. soldiers appear to have engaged in egregious war crimes. We strolled past rows of photographs and depictions of the attacks on civilians and photos of charred and decapitated bodies. Documentation seized from the South supported a policy of hunting and killing Communist party members “and their families.” We saw the documentary evidence of the over 500 people who had been forced into a ditch, doused with gasoline, and set on fire and left to burn to death. We stood in an air raid shelter with still walls blackened with burnt flesh where over 900 people, including, women and children huddled during the onslaught, while U.S. soldiers were seen pouring gasoline down the air vents of the “shelter” and setting it on fire. The murders were allegedly conducted and ordered by a U.S. officer named Harrison, who also dropped lit dynamite down a nearby shelter as well.

When we emerged from the shelter there were hundreds of North Korean soldiers being told the heartfelt story from a woman whose family had died at Sinchon. Her voice shook with emotion and the soldiers watched us carefully as we moved forward to place some flowers at the monument and mass grave site of Sinchon. Shame does not even begin to describe the feelings we experienced at Sinchon, but it has bolstered our commitment to work for peace and demonstrate that war cannot be an option.



V. The Demilitarized Zone (DMZ)

One of the most dramatic moments of the trip came at the DMZ and the infamous joint use bunkers of Panmunjom. However, the drama was not what was expected. Before coming to the DPRK, we had read about the DMZ being the most tense and dangerous place on the planet. We were ready for a highly charged military fortress flanked by machine guns, barbed wire and masses of military personnel. That was not what we discovered.

The standoff at the bunkers where soldiers stare each other down across an imaginary line seemed filled with showmanship and a certain level of absurdity. When we arrived, U.S. and South Korean soldiers, reportedly chosen for their size, watched us through field glasses as we approached the borderline. We met in the joint use shared space and in the building where the armistice agreement was signed. The beautiful hills of the DMZ, along with the five rivers that poor into the lush landscape, make it more suited for an eco-park than a war staging ground.

The drama came not from the military standoff, but from the heart-felt exchanges we had with military officers on the North side of this fractured land. When we arrived and descended the steps of the bus we were met by Major Kim Myong Hwan, the officer in charge of negotiations between the north and south in the DMZ. When he recognized one member of our delegation from a previous trip, they embraced him and a laugh and beautiful smile spread across his face. “Welcome my old friend,” he said. He and Peter then held hands as they laughed and reminisced through translation a short, but meaningful connection from two years prior that obviously had touched both of their hearts.

Major Kim smiled and shared his dreams of having wanted to be a writer or journalist, but described in more somber tones the story that led him and his five brother to “walk the line in the DMZ” as soldiers. He wanted to tell his story to us as Americans and as lawyers “because lawyers bare trust and justice in their hearts.” He softly assured us that their struggle is clearly “with the American Government, not the American people.” He described being “lonely for his family lost” at Sinchon – his grandfather strung up a pole and tortured, his grandmother dying from a bayonet in her belly. Tears welled up ion his eyes as he described his father being orphaned at six years old and his father’s inability as a young child to defend his family. “So we have to do it,” he said. Astutely, he declared that we “do not oppose the American People. We oppose U.S. hostile policy and its efforts to exercise control over the whole world and inflict calamity on other people.”

As we walked along an overlook he pointed to a South Korean outpost that still flew the United Nations Flag. To fly the UN flag, he said, is illegal, when they are not commanding nor funding the operation. The UN exists “to ensure peace,” not push to ignite a war. He regretted the UN supporting role in the war, but then stated that today most countries that took part in the UN operation now have formal diplomatic relations with the DPRK. He understood very well that “the UN is sometimes misused by the United States.”

At another location some miles away on the DMZ we met a Colonel who set up field glasses through which we could see across the divide. We could see a concrete wall built on the South side, a violation of truce agreements. The major described such a permanent structure as a “disgrace for the Korean people who are a homogenous people.” A loud speaker continuously blared propaganda and music from speakers on the south side. The irritating noise goes on for 22 hours a day, he said. Suddenly, in another surreal moment, the bunker’s loudspeakers began belting out the William Tell overture, better known in America as the theme from the Lone Ranger.

The Colonel urged us to help people see what is really going on in the DPRK, instead of basing their opinions on misinformation. He told us “We know that like us the peace loving people in America have children, parents and families.” We told him of our mission to return with a message for peace and that we hope to return someday and “walk with him together freely in these beautiful hills.” He paused and said, “I too believe it is possible.”

VI. The Countryside and Hours of Talk

Much is written about the alleged starvation, even referred to as intentional, of the North Korean people by their government. On our trips in the countryside, both north and south of Pyongyang, we covered nearly 500 kilometers. During that time we had the opportunity to see agricultural communities and small towns. We noticed that the people on the whole looked well dressed and active. We saw no one who looked malnourished or emaciated and our observations were confirmed by many of the foreigners we met who had dealings around the country. The DPRK has very little are able land and we saw crops being harvested everywhere it was possible to grow them. It appears every square inch of arable land is cultivated, and on the roofs of their country cottages people had planted vines of what looked like melons or squash. The people we passed on the road or in rural towns looked relaxed. The images of children heading to school or playing, or women sitting side saddle on bikes as their husbands pedaled, provided human moments that make war unthinkable. No one seemed dispirited or broken.

We noted that this was not the Orwellian society George Bush and much of the media is trying to portray. The countryside appeared to us to be more typical of the poorer part of Europe, for example rural Greece, or Spain or Portugal. Three members of the delegation who had experience in Africa noted that the country appeared much more prosperous than most places they had been in Africa. This was confirmed by the Congolese visitors we met, who indicated that people in many parts of the Congo would love to have the standard of living apparent in North Korea. The landscape, with its mountains in the background, and ravines, its trees, its rivers and arid parts, and houses with white walled, ochre tiled roofs was similar to southern parts of Europe.

Another surprise was the absence of a police presence throughout the country. We never saw a single policeman with a gun or even a club. The only police we saw were police officers, mainly women, directing traffic at certain intersections. There were occasional guard stations along the road down south as we approached the DMZ. We saw soldiers in many places, usually helping harvest crops or working in the fields or helping on a construction site. But we rarely saw a soldier armed. The contrast between North Korea and its lack of policemen and North America in which armed police in bulletproof vests are commonplace was more than striking - it was startling. If the presence or absence of armed policemen is a criterion for a free society then this speaks volumes about the nature of the two societies.

The towns we passed through although not rich by any means appeared prosperous enough and we could see factories in operation as well as farming. There was clearly a lack of farm machinery as most of the farming we saw was done by manual labor, but this is at least in part due to fifty years of sanctions, the inability to purchase the proper equipment, and fuel shortages related, in part, to shifts in policy by the DPRK in reliance upon the 1994 Agree Framework. We also saw several unrepaired bridges washed out and damaged during the floods in 1995-96 and more recently during a typhoon which devastated the country. We learned that the floods had been catastrophic, wiping out crops and homes, bridges and hydro-electric stations, and flooding mines. It is clear that they suffered from a series of calamities that would have left any country in devastation, regardless of its economic policies. It is to their credit that, despite these disasters, despite the continuing US economic embargo, and despite efforts among some nations to delay food and other aid in the hopes the current government will collapse, they have managed to survive and revive their economy and provide a basic standard of living. They freely admit that after the floods food shortages caused serious deprivations.

VII. The Circus

International relations can sometimes seem like a circus. So it was no surprise when we found ourselves one evening attending a circus performance in Pyongyang. It was a Cirque du Soleil type performance, with acrobats, ice-skating, and a live orchestra. The breathtaking spectacle was made more remarkable by the presence of a large number of soldiers and sailors in the audience who laughed loudly at the clowns and comics and oohed and aahed like the rest of us at the high wire acts. The monolithic robotic repressive army described in the western press became as it appears, a mere figment of the imagination, as we shared joy and laughter rather than threats and rhetoric. We realized that the governments of nations often forget that the alleged “enemy” is really made up of people with hearts and feelings, and that armies are often staffed by teenagers and young men and women. We are walking a tightrope in a nuclear standoff, but for a moment, all differences faded and smiling together at the folly of humanity ruled the day.

The circus also further dissolved the stories of North Korea’s isolation. People attending came from different parts of the world, and from everyday North Koreans as well. But most surprising was when a young man who asked in English where we were from approached us after the performance. It turned out he was with a group of tourists from… South Korea&#33;

VIII. Human Exchanges

The key to the success of any delegation is to have as much human exchange as possible and to then encourage governments to address international relations through a human filter. Former Archbishop Desmond Tutu has eloquently stated that

Their humanity is caught up in our humanity, as ours is caught up in theirs…when I dehumanize you, I inexorably dehumanize myself….

One of our final contacts with people came picnicking along side groups of North Koreans along a crystal clear river in the mountains. We were surprised at the relaxed atmosphere among the people themselves and with us. After learning that there were Americans there, one group next to us sent us over a huge plate of clams. We spoke with them and exchanged hopes for peace and relayed greetings from the millions of peace-loving Americans. As we walked another group wanted to take our photos and to sing them a song. While the delegation disavows any notion of in-tune group harmony, we sang “We Shall Overcome” as the group clapped and smiled joyfully at this likely first for both of us. As we finished they surrounded us and joyfully filled our pockets with apples, as our eyes filled with tears of appreciation. Little did we know upon going to this country, where its populace was allegedly being starved, that we would have our pockets stuffed with produce&#33;

When we returned to our hosts at our picnic site, we were entertained with beautiful Korean songs with each of them taking turns. Playfully each person would finish singing and they would point to another who had to step up and sing. We know that if the contest between the lawyers of each nation were singing that this would have ended with our defeat quite swiftly&#33; We ended up singing old anti-war and protest songs by a creek in the woods of North Korea with pockets bulging with fruit. The threat of war seemed not only far away, but inconceivable.

On our way back to Pyongyang we stopped at a resort hotel in a valley below the picnic area to drop off our hostess who had prepared the food for our picnic, only to run into busloads of Chinese tourists. Isolation does not appear to be the objective of the DPRK. We remember that it was the government based Democratic Lawyers Group that had reached out and invited us to the DPRK.

On a side note, during these days with our hosts and with others we met we never got the impression that anyone felt afraid to talk to us or to approach us or to answer our questions. On the contrary, we were constantly impressed by the sincerity and directness of the Korean people. Our two hosts, Mr. Jo and Mr. Bang earnestly tried to answer all our questions on very aspect of society. No question seemed off limits or answered in an apparent desire to avert the truth. As trial lawyers we have substantial experience and training in telling when someone is being evasive or untruthful. As a group we concluded that we were not being misled, nor were answers intended to divert us from a deeper inquiry. We covered the gamut, including women’s involvement in the high levels of government, criminal justice, capital punishment, crimes against the state and nuclear weapons. Our hosts seemed eager to provide us information and share their experiences. We were treated to the sharing of family photos and laughter over children, ping-pong and the state of the world.

Others we encountered and spoke to also appeared to us to be sincere and direct in their responses to our questions and honestly were trying to make us understand them as a people and to understand their brand of socialism in Korea. We never felt we were being manipulated or used and we were not paraded in front of the media or used for any internal propaganda purposes. We felt like honored and respected guests.


IX. Particular Observations:

A. The Juche idea of socialism

Our delegation began an exploration of the Juche form of socialism developed by the North Koreans to better understand the goals and intentions for society in North Korea. An interesting expansion of socialist philosophy is present in the very symbol of the nation and Juche, wherein the hammer and sickle are joined by an artist’s calligraphy brush, symbolizing the intellegencia and artists, along with the industrial and agricultural workers.

In simple terms Juche is the Korean word for independence, which is the basis of their external and internal policies. The North Koreans consider that no country can maintain true independence of action unless they are truly sovereign. Having experienced multiple invasions over 5,000 years and believing that socialism can be constructed in a single country if the motivation is there, the North Koreans try to maintain as much independence as possible while recognizing their interdependency with the outside world. They also translate this into society itself. “Juche” is often translated as “self-reliance.”

For the North Koreans, Marx and Lenin were great revolutionaries insofar as analyzing capitalist society and its transformation into socialism is concerned, but they could not and did not understand what it meant for human beings to live in a socialist society. These 19th century philosophers could only speculate about what a socialist society would be like. The North Koreans believe that it was Kim Il Sung who developed a philosophy of a socialist society. While statutes and murals abound to the later founder of the Country, Kim Il Sung, we observed no references to Marx and other international socialist leaders.

The Koreans believe they have a way of looking at society that can maintain socialism and the revolutionary and humanistic forces that are needed too maintain and improve it. Kim Il Sung stated that individuals in the society must have independence, creativity and consciousness. If any one of those three is missing no one can be a complete progressive human being and no socialist society can exist. It is the North Koreans’ contention that the fall of the USSR can be primarily ascribed to the mistake of the Soviets in failing to create and sustain this idea and spirit in the USSR, the result being a loss of faith in the revolution in the USSR and a regressive slide back into capitalism.

This appears also to be their concern for China as well, that it has slipped into capitalism due to a complete misunderstanding of what a socialist society is and can be both for the collective society but also for the individual as well. Certainly our delegation’s observations in Mainland China supported that the market system is booming and that vestiges of Mao’s China appear hidden in the seams.

This notion of the role of the individual in socialist society and how it is actually being played out in North Korea will be one of the topics for further delegations to follow-up on. Whether the North Koreans can maintain their approach with increasing joint ventures with corporations and further tourism remains to be seen. Furthermore, unlike stated justifications for isolating other socialist regimes over the years, such as their desire to export revolution, similar concerns seem inapplicable in the North Korean context. We appear to be maintaining this state of war and isolation, not because they are a threat to the rest of the world, but soley because of their ideology.


B. The Role of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il

The U.S. government and press have continually demonized the leadership of North Korea as “evil dictators,” the “last emperors”, “ruthless.” and murderers of their own people. In fact, the U.S. President G.W. Bush went so far as to make insulting and discriminatory comments, calling Kim Jong Il a “pygmy” and that “little” dictator. This attack on leaders that appear to harness great respect from within their country appear misguided and intended to thwart peace. The delegation voiced concerns as to whether efforts to demonize and dehumanize another country’s leader aids in preparing the American people for another war. Saving face in Korean society, called ch’emyon, is very important and we urge our leaders to understand Korean culture when they deal with this complex nation. We cannot be respected unless we respect others.

One afternoon we visited the birthplace of Kim Il Sung, the first leader of the DPRK. He appears highly respected and much loved here because he fought his entire life for the sovereignty, independence and dignity of the Korean people, first against the Japanese, then against the Americans. Despite the allegations made by some in the west that a “personality cult” exists in North Korea, that was not our impression. On the contrary we found that their former leader Kim Il Sung is regarded in much the same way as people regard, for example, Mao in China, Churchill in WW II Britain, or Washington in the United States. Our visit to the birthplace, as one delegation member noted, might have been a stroll around Mt. Vernon – the home of George Washington.

Kim Jong Il appears to be respected as someone who continues to fight for the same principles as his father. He was not immediately appointed after his father’s death, but took a long period of mourning. The Korean Workers Party and National Assembly took much time and allegedly engaged in extensive discussion before electing him. He had been heading the military for some time and continued in this role in the interim. However, there appears to have been some chaos and an actual vacuum of leadership during this time-period. This may have contributed to the economic struggles of the late 1990’s.

We learned that under the Juche principle, a strong leader is necessary to guide the will of the collective as represented in the Workers Party and the Assembly. However, as discussed below, the North Koreans have an elaborate system from the shop or farm level up to receive input on key national issues. How well this is utilized is a project for further delegations, but to assert that there is no democratic participation, only top-down decisions, in the DPRK appears an exaggeration.

We did not meet Kim Jong Il, something that appears possible on a later delegation. We also cannot on such a short trip have sufficient time to assess the basis of his apparent support. However, the absence of weapons and visible military intimidation makes the usual explanation of a brutal intimidating dictatorship suspect. We do know that a state of war leads to a nation rallying around its leadership and North Korea has had the threat of war hanging over it for over fifty years. Until there is peace, it is unlikely that we will fully understand the strengths and weaknesses of the current leadership.

From all observations, in light of the survival of their nation under great pressure and great obstacles, it appears that there are many positives that are overlooked by the simplistic rhetorical bashing of the media. We can only conclude that the people we met appear to have genuine respect for the insights and actions of the “Dear Leader” who is guiding their country. Yet, we questioned whether challenging him openly would result in prison or other penalty. From our own experiences in the U.S. or Canada, we have seen people in our own countries persecuted for their beliefs and opinions. We have watched while Muslims are attacked or detained without due process, teachers fired if they opposed the war and brutal attacks by police against those opposing the war in Iraq. Look at the reaction to Michael Moore as “disloyal” for calling the war fictitious and saying to President Bush “Shame on you, Mr. President.”

Our hosts answered that such challenges to the Leadership rarely happen. The reasons for this might be tied to the Juche philosophy, the reluctance to question a leader during a state of war (something Americans can relate to), peer social pressure or, as some in the West allege, fear of retaliation. We simply cannot know about a broad cross-section of DPRK citizens from our short trip. As more delegations travel to the DPRK, and a peace economy and society prevails, we will begin to understand this relationship more.

One morning we traveled to the north of the country to beautiful Mt. Myohyang and the Museum of Presidential Gifts. The museum itself is impressive in size and architecture, but its placement is stunning. One overlook where we enjoyed some ginseng tea took our breath away and several of the delegation noted it was one of the most beautiful spots they had ever seen. The museum contains all the gifts given to Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il by visitors and leaders of other countries. The stated purpose of the museum is to share the gifts with all of society, but it also serves to project to the people the respect given to their leadership by the international community. These gifts comprise all types of works of art and other objects from every country in the world including the United States. It was a spectacular display of fine artwork, furniture and even a car.

Some of the gifts were breathtaking, some surprising. For instance there were two gifts from Jimmy Carter and even one from the Reverend Billy Graham, described as “the religious leader of America.” Whether that is Mr. Graham’s description of himself or the Koreans’ misunderstanding or an exaggeration of his position was unclear. Yet, most Americans would not have realized in this world of myths and rhetoric that the North Koreans not only allowed Billy Graham to come to North Korea, but permitted him to preach in churches there.

The delegation came away from North Korea believing that the U.S. administration spends too much time demonizing the leadership of North Korea and forgetting that it is also a nation of millions of people who are peace-loving and, in the words of the North Korean Colonel we met at the DMZ, of people who “have children, parents and families.” Even our own experience shows that during times of threats and war, the best and worst in governmental leaders comes out. When former U.S. Jimmy Carter went to North Korea in 1994 it was in part because he was shocked that with a crisis brewing, no one was speaking with Kim Il Sung. Carter and Kim met, dined together, took a boat trip and lived the Winston Churchill declaration that it is always better to “talk, talk, talk than to fight, fight, fight.” From the understandings of the needs of each side in that meeting, an agreed framework was negotiated by the Clinton White House that reduced the threat of war.

It is clear that the North Korean leadership is willing to meet at anytime with the United States. Secretary State Madeline Albright found Kim Jong Il to be not what she had expected in her visit to Pyongyang. In fact, Kim Jong Il had invited Bill Clinton in 2000 and a trip was being discussed at the end of his administration, but the election debacle of 2000 and developments in the Middle East ended that dream.

The delegation is greatly saddened by the shift from a policy of dialogue to one of demonization and commits to work to reverse this dangerous and provocative trend. It welcomes quite recent moves in the Bush administration to reconsider signing a non-aggression agreement, but urge them to also establish formal diplomatic and economic relations and agree on a timetable to remove U.S. troops. It takes more than promises to be non-aggressive, as a nation’s actions must reflect their words.

C. The Legal System

We were told that the legal system is based on the Napoleonic Code, but it appears to be more in line with the German Civil code, as introduced by the Japanese. There is a structured court system in both the criminal and civil fields, and that there is a system of family and tort law as well. In our short trip we could not learn the details of the DPRK legal system and we need to go back to learn more. We asked to be taken to courts and law faculties to speak to professors and students, but due to the short nature of the trip, and a misunderstanding about our arrival date, it was not possible to arrange. We have also asked to visit courts, but it was not possible on this trip.

Through discussions and research de discovered that the law of criminal procedure provides that court proceedings shall be open, but also contains a clause that allows a hearing to be closed if “there is a fear of exercising a bad effect on society.” Such a provision could lead to abuses and to better understand it we need a sense as to how many proceedings are really open. Is it used more broadly than some of the privacy and national security claims made in the U.S., or the current military tribunals for alleged terrorists, to justify closed or secret hearings? However, our hosts assured those of us from the delegation who plan to return, that our future delegations would include visits to the courts and meetings with more lawyers and judges.

We were struck by the design of the DPRK criminal justice system. We even found in a bookstore the Criminal Procedures Act of the DPRK in English. Several principles seem quite progressive and reflect more of restorative justice, than retributive justice. The prime objective of the criminal justice system is rehabilitation or setting an example, not punishment,. There is an element of the latter, as there are jail terms for crimes, but this is not the major thrust of their system. In fact, they have codified a process by which those affected by the decision or the conduct of the accused have a real role in the process and those that contributed to the delinquent act or were involved in educating the person (i.e. a parent or friend) have to be available in the process to receive a “lecture” from the court. Penalties include submitting the accused to “social” or “public education.” Those arrested are required to have their families notified within 48 hours. A defense counsel is to be provided to represent the rights of the accused.

We were told that there was no death penalty and that the maximum penalty for any crime is 12 years, with the objective being to try to determine why the person committed the crime and to help that person become a productive member of society. A lack of a death penalty was seen by the delegation as a sign of a civilized nation. There appear to be labor camps where people work out their sentences. No effort was made to hide the presence of these camps. The U.S. media’s recent reports on the poor conditions, high mortality rate and lack of proper care or food, in the camps requires further investigation. In light of the false and exaggerated claims about starvation in the country in general, these reports must be viewed with a grain of salt. We will ask to visit these camps on future delegations.

We asked about the penalties for crimes against the state and whether there was a separate system for those crimes. There is not, but provisions are made for crimes that present a “social danger.” This seems consistent with a socialist society organized around the “common good,” but very general and could be subject to abuse. How it is applied remains to be discovered. However, the North Koreans we met with seemed professed to not understanding how someone would really formally challenge the decisions of the collective, as there is, according to them, an elaborate mechanisms for participation and input at various levels off society.

D. Education

As in Cuba, education is free up to Ph.D level. University students are paid a small stipend. Universities and specialty colleges have been established for all regions of the country and entry is by competitive examination. Any student can apply to go to any university or college as long as they pass the entrance examination. After the completion of their education DPRK tries to place the students in the field in which they are trained. Apparently the country has the capacity to enroll between 40 and 60% of the high school students in university at this time.

E. Health Care

Again as in Canada, Cuba, and much of Europe, health care is completely free of charge. Moreover, doctors make house calls in rural areas. Every city has a main hospital and there are specialty hospitals in the larger towns. The system is then composed of regional, district and local clinics all staffed by doctors and nurses so that no one in the country is without medical care. Further, doctor visits each village or city district to ensure preventive techniques are used and that people are doing their best to keep fit. There is an on-going keep fit program in place in the country in which the population has to maintain a certain level of fitness appropriate for age categories. However, in light of economic sanctions there is a shortage of medical supplies.

The floods and drought periods caused disruption of the food supply and caused malnutrition but this appears to have been overcome and the population generally appeared in good condition. Contrary to claims that the disabled are hidden away by the secret regime, we observed disabled people in public who needed canes or had amputated limbs. Further, a woman with a developmental disability was among the friendly picnickers we encountered. According to the North Koreans, parents of children born with chronic conditions receive an extra stipend for their care at home, so long as they are able to stay in the home.

F. Housing

Housing is also free and consists either of fairly modern high rises or traditional cottage style houses with brick walls and tile roofs. While many of the high rises looked in need of paint or plaster, they appeared well kept and clean. On an evening drive through Pyongyang one of our delegation observed beauty and barber shops on the ground floor of an apartment building. We also observed work crews working on refinishing buildings within Pyongyang. While the homes lack many modern conveniences, we saw TV antennae attached to many of them. Housing is allotted by local peoples’ committees in each area who decide who in the area gets which accommodation taking into account various family needs and availability. Young people who are single and not away at school generally live with their parents until marriage at which time they are provided free accommodation.

G. Work Conditions

Labor unions exist but strikes are almost unknown as the government consults with the unions and managers on all aspects of work including wages and work conditions on what seemed to be a consensual basis. More needs to be learned about this process and the issues of unions in socialist states with only governmental employers are very complex. The next delegation hopes to tour plants and meet with worker groups.

Miners and steel factory workers—those whose labor is most dangerous and difficult -- earn more than lawyers or doctors. The professionals take their reward out of the mental satisfaction of the job itself and the prestige which comes with it. So, unlike our society, it is those who work the hardest physically who make the most. Workers are encouraged to speak out if they have ideas on improving things and committees exist at the shop levels for input.

We received some magazines showing the foreign trade of the DPRK. One publication asserts that it has trade with over 100 countries and the government claims as a basis of trade policy that it is based on “the principle of independence, equality and mutual benefit.” The manufacturing sector produces generators, compressors, pumps, automobiles and trains; mines include lead, zinc, cadmium and steel. We saw photos taken within plants of very modern looking equipment, but did not have time to tour facilities. The textile plants and silk mills produce items and the many rivers make fisheries a growing business. Of interest was their development of solar battery production, seawater plants for health and longevity, peppermint oil, Insam ginseng and medicinal herbs.

H. Political System

As in Cuba and other one party socialist societies, North Korea has a system of direct democracy in which elections are held for local peoples committees, district and provincial committees and to the Supreme People’s Assembly. The absence of other parties is not considered a failing, as the entire society is socialist. The question of multiple parties did not even seem understandable to those we spoke to. The delegation questioned whether within that system, there is in fact more participatory democracy than in the American federal system or the parliamentary system in which democracy ceases to operate once the elections are over. It is more circular, with local committees sending up to the next level requests, complaints and so on and so on up to the national level with discussion, at least in theory at these levels and then feedback to the local level until an agreement is reached based on resources available and circumstances.

However, the issue is not whether we agree with DPRK’s system or feel that our democracy is better or more just. The sharing of ideas, principles and approaches can only come after establishing trust and building relationship. The delegation feels that it is incumbent on the United States to commit to peace and demilitarization of Korea and to agree to more exchanges. Through these exchanges ideas also change hands and both societies can benefit from the dialogue. Certainly we cannot say that only one political system is successful and generates a participatory and healthy society. We hope that future delegations can learn more about political dialogue within the DPRK system and share the pros and cons of our system without blame or judgment.


I. Military Service

Military service is compulsory for young men and lasts for three years. Young men can choose to defer their service until after university. Women are not obliged to serve in the armed forces, but a significant number do so out of a feeling of duty to the defense of the country. Substantial pride was evident in the manner in which troops appeared to hold themselves in public and through our personal contacts with officers at the DMZ as discussed above.

J. Reunification

The goal of the DPRK and the Republic of Korea (ROK) has been to reunify the country. Kim Il Sung, just prior to his death in 1994, wrote a statement that declared that the two countries must make all efforts to achieve reunification. A monument to that historic document is found on the north side of DMZ. The country has been one for 1300 years, and two for only 58. In 2000, a joint declaration arose after a meeting between the Presidents of the two splintered nations to use respective proposals for a confederation to promote reunification. They agreed to economic cooperation and exchanges in “civic, cultural, sports, public health, environment and all other fields.” The delegation urges the U.S. to support, rather than continue to frustrate, these efforts and exchanges. If the South Koreans can commit to such relations isn’t it incumbent upon the U.S. to follow its lead?

The DPRK officials provided us with their written proposal for unification that calls for a Federation with a joint Supreme Assembly to pass laws for the federation, but one that allows each side to maintain its systems of government. Whether this is achievable remains uncertain, but the point remains that both sides want to have a united and peaceful nation. Therefore, it is our observation that the U.S. “defenses” may be doing more than “protecting” the South Koreans.

In fact, a unified and peaceful Korea, with a combined population of 77 million people, coupled with the growing economic power of China and the increased trade with Japan, makes Asia an increasing threat to the economic prowess of the United States. Already China is the largest manufacturing country in the world and has had an unparalleled growth rate of 10-15% per year for over twenty years. It was the opinion of the delegation that by maintaining instability in Asia, the U.S. can maintain a massive military presence and keep China at bay in its relations with South and North Korea and Japan and use it as a lever against China and Russia.

With the pressure to remove the U.S. bases in Okinawa, the Korean military operation remains a central point of American efforts to dominate the region. Furthermore, when read in light of the Cheney/Rumsfield and right wing pronouncements for a New American Century and the Clash of Civilizations, wherein they plan to fight several simultaneous theatre wars to preserve Western culture against Islam and then Asia, it is clear there is more at work here than we are being told.


K. The Role of Women

Most of people we spent extensive time with were men. We asked about the Supreme Assembly and saw photos of it. Women had not achieved proportional representation there In talks about gender issues there appears to be a great deal of respect for women, and an indication that they are recognized as capable for any job. However, whether this translates into a cultural paternalism was not clear. Clearly the dress is conservative and women did not appear objectified in the same ways they sometimes are as in the west. We met several very strong assertive women who were guides at some of our stops and who clearly and strongly put forth the Country’s positions. However, our nightly dinners with DPRK lawyers were all male. Further, the women entertainers and guides we encountered were often in “traditional” dress of organza in stark contrast to the garb of women in other jobs. The North Koreans have invited us to send a woman’s attorney delegation this next year and assured us that they would make arrangements to have the delegation meet with women lawyers and judges.

X. War and Peace

The U.S. military estimates that a new Korean war would lead to as many as I million people killed, including 80-100,000 Americans, out of pocket expenses of over &#036;100 billion and an impact on the region of over 1 trillion dollars. Therefore, war is not a viable or civilized option. Yet, the U.S. continues to spend from 20-30 million dollars a year to maintain equipment and the military in South Korea. The delegation feels that this money could easily be diverted to the U.S. for health care or other important social functions.

The fundamental foundation of North Korean policy is to achieve a non-aggression pact and peace treaty with the United States. The North Koreans repeatedly stated that they did not want to attack anyone, hurt anyone or be at war with anyone. But they have seen what has happened to Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq and they have no intention of having that happen to them. It is clear that any U.S. invasion would be defended vigorously and that the nation can endure a long, arduous struggle.

The DPRK has given mixed signals on whether or not it has nuclear weapons. It refers to a “nuclear deterrent force.” One officer told us that they do not have such weapons and other officials indicated that they did. So one can conclude nuclear deterrent force exists, though it may be bluster to make the US think twice about an attack.

Nevertheless, the question is not whether the DPRK has such weapons, but whether the U.S., which has nuclear arm capability on the Korean peninsula, is willing to work with the North toward a peace treaty. In the end the cat and mouse game of “do they or don’t they” begs the question. We found North Koreans avid for peace and not attached to having nuclear weapons if peace can be established. However, in this age of “regime change” in Iraq, “pre-emptive war” doctrines, the U.S. efforts to develop low yield nuclear weapons and its abandonment of international treaties, it was not surprising to us that the DPRK would play the nuclear card. The tragedy is how can the American people fail to demand that their leaders exhaust all avenues of dialogue and peacemaking before even contemplating aggression and the continual deceptions being spun to justify maintaining a state of militarism on the Korean Peninsula.

XI. Final Observations and Future Activities.

Multiple reasons exist for having international delegations such as ours. First, we can be witnesses for peace and observe what is going on in another country. Second, we can carry messages of peace and friendship to countries under attack by our policies. Finally, we can carry back information to our country to have people better understand what is going on. We have engaged in all of these tasks and will continue to perform them. The above report seeks to share our observations and activities.

We are currently planning three delegations in the year 2004 and have invited DPRK to the National Lawyers Guild Convention in October 2004. One of the delegations will focus on women’s issues and one will combine the trip with a visit to South Korea for a regional progressive lawyers conference.

As to messages of peace we have taken steps to share them at every opportunity. Congressman Dennis Kucinich told the delegation to carry a message to Kim Jong Il that “there is someone running for President who won’t demonize him, genuinely believes in peace between our nations and will stop all the rhetoric.” At Mt. Myohyang we left a written message for all visitors to see that was immediately written out and translated in Korean:

To the People of the DPRK:

Thank you for the many inspirations from our trip to Mt. Myohyang and across the country. We carry you in our hearts as we head back to the United States and Canada to work for Peace, Friendship and a positive future for our nations and the our world.

The USA/CANADA NLG Peace Delegation October 2003

When we met with groups of people in parks or at gatherings, or even with soldiers along the DMZ, we let them know that there are millions of peace-loving Americans who are supportive of a peaceful co-existence with the DPRK. As with Americans before we left, the Koreans seemed relieved and hopeful that our trip can play a part in healing this conflict.

Upon leaving we left our hosts and the government with a message of thanks for their warm hospitality and declared:

[refuse_resist]

The DPRK&#39;s Socialist Constitution...

Here is an unofficial translation of the amended and supplemented socialist constitution of the DPRK which was adopted on Sept. 5 by the first session of the 10th Supreme People’s Assembly.

Preface
Chapter1 Politics
Chapter2 Economy
Chapter3 Culture
Chapter4 National Defense
Chapter5 Fundamental Rights and Duties of Citizens
Chapter6 The Structure of State
Chapter7 National Emblem, Flag, National Anthem and Capital

Preface

　The Democratic People’s Republic of Korea is a socialist fatherland of Juche which embodies the idea of and guidance by the great leader Comrade Kim Il Sung.

The great leader Comrade Kim Il Sung is the founder of the DPRK and the socialist Korea.

Comrade Kim Il Sung founded the immortal Juche idea, organized and guided an anti-Japanese revolutionary struggle under its banner, created revolutionary tradition, attained the historical cause of the national liberation, and founded the DPRK, built up a solid basis of construction of a sovereign and independent state in the fields of politics, economy, culture and military, and founded the DPRK.

Comrade Kim Il Sung put forward an independent revolutionary line, wisely guided the social revolution and construction at various levels, strengthened and developed the Republic into a people-centered socialist country and a socialist state of independence, self-sustenance, and self-defense.

Comrade Kim Il Sung clarified the fundamental principle of State building and activities, established the most superior state social system and political method, and social management system and method, and provided a firm basis for the prosperous and powerful socialist fatherland and the continuation of the task of completing the Juche revolutionary cause.

Comrade Kim Il Sung regarded “believing in the people as in heaven” as his motto, was always with the people, devoted his whole life to them, took care of and guided them with a noble politics of benevolence, and turned the whole society into one big and united family.

The great leader Comrade Kim Il Sung is the sun of the nation and the lodestar of the reunification of the fatherland. Comrade Kim Il Sung set the reunification of the country as the nation’s supreme task, and devoted all his work and endeavors entirely to its realization.

Comrade Kim Il Sung, while turning the Republic into a mighty fortress for national reunification, indicated fundamental principles and methods for national reunification, developed the national reunification movement into a pan-national movement, and opened up a way for that cause, to be attained by the united strength of the entire nation.

The great leader Comrade Kim Il Sung made clear the fundamental idea of the Republic’s external policy, expanded and developed diplomatic relations on this basis, and heightened the international prestige of the Republic. Comrade Kim Il Sung as a veteran world political leader, hew out a new era of independence, vigorously worked for the reinforcement and development of the socialist movement and the nonaligned movement, and for world peace and friendship between peoples, and made an immortal contribution to the mankind’s independent cause.

Comrade Kim Il Sung was a genius ideological theoretician and a genius art leader, an ever-victorious, iron-willed brilliant commander, a great revolutionary and politician, and a great human being. Comrade Kim Il Sung’s great idea and achievements in leadership are the eternal treasures of the nation and a fundamental guarantee for the prosperity and efflorescence of the DPRK.

The DPRK and the entire Korean people will uphold the great leader Comrade Kim Il Sung as the eternal President of the Republic, defend and carry forward his ideas and exploits and complete the Juche revolution under the leadership of the Workers’ Party of Korea.

The DPRK Socialist Constitution is a Kim Il Sung constitution which legally embodies Comrade Kim Il Sung’s Juche state construction ideology and achievements.

http://www1.korea-np.co.jp/pk/061st_issue/98091708.htm

[apathy maybe]

Originally posted by Guerrilla22
No, but you can have scientific analysis, which has been my point all along. And my point is that just because you can have a scientific analysis (whatever that is), doesn&#39;t make it a science.

You can have a scientific analysis of astrology, doesn&#39;t make it a science. You can have a scientific analysis of lots of different thigns, but until there is actually a base of knowledge that can be tested and explained, there isn&#39;t a science.


And can someone please edit the above two posts, strip out those massive quotes and put them on a webpage somewhere? Not only are they fucking up the formatting, but they are way too long to be useful.

[Hiero]

Originally posted by apathy maybe+February 20, 2007 12:36 am--> (apathy maybe @ February 20, 2007 12:36 am)
Guerrilla22
No, but you can have scientific analysis, which has been my point all along. And my point is that just because you can have a scientific analysis (whatever that is), doesn&#39;t make it a science.

You can have a scientific analysis of astrology, doesn&#39;t make it a science. You can have a scientific analysis of lots of different thigns, but until there is actually a base of knowledge that can be tested and explained, there isn&#39;t a science.


And can someone please edit the above two posts, strip out those massive quotes and put them on a webpage somewhere? Not only are they fucking up the formatting, but they are way too long to be useful. [/b]
Then what is science? Do you consider there to even be science?

[Guerrilla22]

Exactly, I shouldn&#39;t have to explain why scientific analysis is scientific. Coming to logicl conclusions based on analyzing information is scientific, &#39;nuff said&#33;

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 10:02 am
Exactly, I shouldn&#39;t have to explain why scientific analysis is scientific. Coming to logicl conclusions based on analyzing information is scientific, &#39;nuff said&#33;
Obviously, but there&#39;s a difference between being &#39;scientific&#39; and practicing an actual &#39;science&#39; - anyone can use aspects of the scientific method; however marxism will not be a science until marx&#39;s theory is tested and holds up and we&#39;re not at that point in history yet.

[Guerrilla22]

I was actually refering to social sciences, anyways, what was this thread about originally?

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 12:17 am
I was actually refering to social sciences, anyways, what was this thread about originally?
How awesome Kim Jong Il is.

[Black Dagger]

Is this thread window-tingy squished for everyone else? Any idea why that is?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

It was because refuse resists&#39; post was too long. I edited it. Must be a flaw with the software.


Marxists as modernists love the idea of marxism being a &#39;science&#39;, because science in their minds provides the ultimate in intellectual credibility. Whilst marxism may have &#39;scientific&#39; emphasises in its philosophy (the emphasis on materialism for example), that does not make marxism itself an actual science --&#62; it is a socio-political philosophy; try asking your science teacher if marxism is a &#39;science&#39;, see what they say

Marxism is a science, plain and simple. Only someone who either doesn&#39;t know what science is, or "rejects" science, would say otherwise. "Marxism" is an outlook that comes from the scienitific method applied to human society, and the development thereof.

And who gives a fuck what a "science teacher" says? I had a history teacher tell me that Columbus discovered America. He was wrong.

Anyway, Marxism is often defined by bourgeois sources as a "social theory." Wikipedia says "Social theory refers to the use of theoretical frameworks to explain and analyze social patterns and large-scale social structures." In otherwords, a science to explain things.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by CDL+--> (CDL)"Marxism" is an outlook that comes from the scienitific method applied to human society, and the development thereof.[/b]

There&#39;s a difference between using scientific principals and actually having a sound &#39;science&#39; - like physics is a science or biology is science (the former being a &#39;harder&#39; science). Further out you&#39;ve got things like psychology which is a science but less rigorous, then further out from that still you&#39;ve got things like marxism.

You need to be able to test scientific hypothesis, marx&#39; hypothesis will not be validated until capitalism has been superceded by a communist society following a proletarian revolution. Merely constructing a theory using a materialist analysis is not the equivalent of &#39;a science&#39;, at the most it could be said to be &#39;scientific&#39; - but &#39;scientific&#39; in a basic structural sense, not in the sense that it is a tested hypothesis.

And if you do think that marxism is actually a &#39;science&#39;, i guess you&#39;re also saying that marxists are scientists? :P

I just dont see utility of &#39;proving&#39; that marxism is a science, its really irrelevant to the question of human liberation.


CDL
And who gives a fuck what a "science teacher" says?

That&#39;s not my point, i meant simply any person with a sound knowledge of the philosophy of science.

[The Author]

Concerning the question of succession in the D.P.R.K. which was raised earlier in this thread, I&#39;d like to point out some information written in a book titled “North Korea after Kim Il Sung,” edited by Dae-Sook Suh and Chae-Jin Lee. I quote paragraphs from said book in Pages 22 through 24.


Page 22

It was not until September 1973, at the Seventh Plenum of the Fifth Central Committee, that Kim Jong Il was elected to the Secretariat asasecretary; five months later, at the Eighth Plenum of the Fifth Central Committee, he was elected as a member to the Political Committee. Of course, such “important” elections were not made public at the time. The agenda of the plenums dealt with the task of the three revolutions (ideological, technical, and cultural) that had been initiated at the Fifth Party Congress in 1970. There were reports by Kim Il Sung on general mobilization for construction and a report by Yang Hyong-sop on the complete abolition of taxes, but neither plenum addressed the election of new members to the Secretariat of the Political Committee.

However, it does seem that at these meetings serious questions were raised about Kim Jong Il, the three-revolution movement, and possibly the succession, because the Ninth Plenum of the Fifth Central Committee was held in secret. Even its exact date was unknown: It was held sometime after February 1974 and sometime before February 1975, when the Tenth Plenum was held. Kim Jong Il’s election as a member of the Secretariat and the Political Committee was unusual to say the least; no one had ever been elected to the top leadership organization of the Central Committee without first being elected to the Central Committee. Such extraordinary personnel actions and the secret meeting of the plenum signaled that the larger issue of selecting Kim Jong Il as the successor to Kim Il Sung was imminent.

It is assumed that the selection of Kim Jong Il was made at the Ninth

Page 23

Plenum of the Fifth Central Committee and that the meeting of the plenum was most likely held in April 1974. It was not Kim Il Sung who recommended Kim Jong Il as successor but his old partisan comrades such as Kim Il, Yim Ch’un-ch’u, and O Chin-u. At first, Kim Il Sung was supposedly not in favor of the idea, citing the fact that his son was still too young for the job. Indeed, at the time, Kim Jong Il was only thirty-two years old, younger than Kim Il Sung was when he took power in 1945 at the age of thirty-three. It may have taken some persuasion on the part of the leaders of Kim Il Sung’s own generation to convince him that a successor must be chosen not from the older but from the younger generation. Kim Il Sung supposedly acquiesed to such a demand from the leaders of his generation only after careful deliberation.

There is speculation that a number of high party officials at the Ninth Plenum opposed the selection of Kim Jong Il as successor. For example, Kim Tong-gyu, who ranked third behind Kim Il Sung and Kim Il in the Political Committee of the Central Committee at the time, suddenly disappeared from all public functions shortly after the Ninth Plenum, and he was never mentioned again in the North. It was also after the Ninth Plenum that North Korean media began to use a mysterious term, “party center,” to refer to Kim Jong Il. The succession of Kim Jong Il was implied in a Nodong sinmun article to commemorate the forty-second anniversary of the founding of the Korean People’s Army on April 25, 1974. The article mentioned that the people should support the “party center” generation after generation.

It was not Kim Il Sung who tried to force the mantle of power onto his reluctant or indifferent son; it was Kim Jong Il who actively sought to succeed his father. To gain his father’s blessing, Kim Jong Il worked hard throughout the 1970s under his father’s tutelage. In addition to making films for his father, Kim Jong Il led various campaigns to increase industrial and agricultural production by mobilizing young people. He took charge of the Three-Revolution Team Movement and later developed it into the Three-Revolution Red Flag Movement to improve the sagging economy. Kim Jong Il and the young people of his generation went out to the factory and farms to encourage tired old workers to increase production by using new methods and new technology. In the beginning, Kim Jong Il failed miserably in the campaign. Many older workers resented working under the watchful eyes of the younger cadres, who knew nothing about the work. Their new methods were unworkable and their new technologies needed explanation and proper application. Industrial as well as agrarian production dropped sharply in the mid-1970s. Kim Il Sung made serious efforts to teach his son and the young people how to conduct mass campaigns to increase production. At the same time, he had to encourage the tired workers to continue the pace they were used to and gradually to adopt new methods whenever possible.

Page 24

Toward the end of the 1970s, it was claimed that the Three-Revolution Team Movement and the Three-Revolution Red Flag Movement were successfully concluded, and in December 1979 Kim Jong Il was awarded the highest medal in North Korea, the Kim Il Sung Medal, First Class, for his accomplishments. In addition to the production campaigns, Kim Jong Il launched a campaign to compile the complete works of his father into a new series called Kim Il Sung chojakchip (Works of Kim Il Sung). This effort to compile all of Kim Il Sung’s writings, including his earlier collection of selected works, has thus far filled thirty-four volumes. Kim Jong Il began to refer to his father’s idea as “Kimilsungism,” in line with such terms as “Marxism” and “Leninism.”

Kim Jong Il worked hard to impress his father that he was a pious son who would honor his father. He built several landmark monuments to his father, including a tower for the [I]chuch’e[/I} idea and an Arch of Triumph to commemorate his father’s triumphant return to North Korea from Manchuria. There were celebrations for his father’s seventieth and eightieth birthdays on a scale larger than any other tribute ever made to Kim Il Sung. Through these efforts, Kim Jong Il also wanted to prove to his father that he was an able person who could meet his father’s expectations. Kim Jong Il wanted the job, and Kim Il Sung seems to have acquiesced and supported his son’s quest.

[China studen]

Originally posted by apathy maybe+February 17, 2007 02:43 am--> (apathy maybe @ February 17, 2007 02:43 am) I am alright. Fawkes is just a FUCK WIT&#33; But anyway ...



Black Dagger
Please dont&#39; pretend that marxism is a science, its embarrassing for revleftists generally.I agree.


In addition, from the point of view of historical materialism. Commenting on a figure we should also take into account the historical background. In those years, international widespread extreme leftist ideas, it has also affected him.Historical materialism is fucked. That isn&#39;t going to make me many friends, but I had to say it. [/b]
If you are opposed to materialism, will inevitably slide toward idealism.

[China studen]

Originally posted by black rose+February 17, 2007 03:20 am--> (black rose @ February 17, 2007 03:20 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 11:26 pm

black [email protected] 16, 2007 01:21 pm
Please dont&#39; pretend that marxism is a science, its embarrassing for revleftists generally.
then what is it then :huh: ? since when is an ideology based on philosophy, political and social economics not a science? Metaphysic idealism then? what kind of comment is that?
Marxists as modernists love the idea of marxism being a &#39;science&#39;, because science in their minds provides the ultimate in intellectual credibility. Whilst marxism may have &#39;scientific&#39; emphasises in its philosophy (the emphasis on materialism for example), that does not make marxism itself an actual science --&#62; it is a socio-political philosophy; try asking your science teacher if marxism is a &#39;science&#39;, see what they say ;) [/b]
Marxism is a science. For example, dialectics. Scientific theories can be used as the experimental guidance.

[China studen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 05:07 pm

I have repeatedly explained to you : In the current world, not everyone has the freedom to go anywhere else&#33;

Yes, but that does not make it right.

In the current world capitalism is dominant.
Does that make capitalism right?
ofcourse not.


In the planned economy, the government must grasp local conditions, such as the number of the population

Emigration is only a problem when significant amounts of people leave, now, should significant amounts of people leave if it was made illegal then it shows that the government of the DPRK is not loved.

In other words, control of emigration is only necessary in a country where the government is not loved, where life is so shitty people rather leave than stay
So the logical conclusion is; the DPRK is a bad country.


China is a socialist country in the Mao Zedong era.

No, if it was it would have been the "Workers&#39; Era" not the "Mao Zedong Era".


Korea is so successful? The only one special?


in what way is korea succesful?

Nazi germany was "succesful" too, it managed to conquer large parts of europe and murdered 10 million civilians
now is that something we want to emulate?
i think not.


But, who is to lead the people in achieving independence? Who ordered the army to defeat the U.S. aggressors? Who diligence to run around the country, encouraging people to rebuild their country?


The working class is perfectly capable of leading itself.
An order which is not obeyed is but a shout in the wind.

When people see the need to do things, such as rebuilding their country, they do so, if they do not, they dont.


China has launched the 1960 "Great Leap Forward." At that time, people are loyal to Chairman Mao, full of enthusiasm for the labor. But the policy that is wrong, but the economy is even worse.


yes, and why was it so disastrous?
Because people were afraid to say it actually was a disaster, because if they did they might be branded a traitor. False reports about the harvest were given out, because if they did not produce enough, they were traitors.


Anarchism in Spain successful? When? Spain&#39;s civil war when?

between &#39;36 and &#39;39 the war raged. The "Marxist-Leninists" stabbed the anarchists in the back, who actually put the whole "land to the peasants&#33; factories to the workers&#33;" thing in practice

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_spain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War

statistical information regarding the extent of the collectivisation;
http://libcom.org/library/statistical-info...nish-revolution (http://libcom.org/library/statistical-information-on-socialisation-in-the-spanish-revolution)
Your logic is wrong&#33; Does anyone leave a country, it can be proved unpopular government of this country?

You must know that the state is the hygiene products. The government is the ruling class. In Korea, the ruling class is the proletariat. By the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. Certainly, they must sentenced escape.

Ridiculous&#33; Mao Zedong era, they are not a socialist country. Then, the world which is a socialist country?

What is the outcome of the Nazis? Is a failure&#33; Korea? Korea from the U.S. blockade. The economy was recovering.

Yes, the people must rebuild their homes. But Instead of drawing people into the building? During the war, a Pyongyang shelled. After the war, Korea has a very short period of time to rebuild the city.

In China, the Great Leap Forward is a failure. But Korea has been successful, and why?