The Iron Cross

[EwokUtopia]

What does everyone here think of the Iron Cross symbol? Is it as tainted by ascism as the other symbols of Nazi/Fascist regime like the Fasces and Hakenkreutz (I refuse to call it a swastika, because it wasnt, no Nazi ever said "Swastika", and we taint Eastern traditions by this association of two very different symbols)

Point in case, we often see people wearing the West Coast Choppers shirts, and I doubt Im the only one here who sees that symbol and wonders if the wearer is a skinhead before I read the words of the logo. Is the Iron Cross merely a symbol, as harmless as the 5-pointed star (which also has somewhat removed bad connentations-American Empire anyone?), or is the Iron Cross forever stained by the remnant of its fascist use?

[Red Menace]

I think its safe to say that the image of the "iron cross" has been tarnished, and will remain so for the next few centuries to come. I don't imagine it will forever remain a symbol of a failed facist idealogy, but there is no way in taking back the image of the "iron cross" to what it was originally, at least for the next few 100 years.

[Comrade Marcel]

The image has definately been tarnished somewhat, but in any case if one doesn't relate it to nazi and pre-nazi Germany, it is related to other racial or some form of (extreme, fundemental) Christianity.

He-Man with Iron cross...
http://www.cartonionline.com/gif/CARTOON/he-man/He-man_01.jpg
http://www.bigredhair.com/halloween/2005/he-man.jpg
...lol

German nazi ss soldier with iron cross...
http://home.att.net/~delaglio.frank/EberhardKopke.jpg

German WW I with iron cross...
http://www.axishistory.com/fileadmin/user_upload/h/heer-officer-closeup.jpg

German imperial navy flag from ww i (my father actually has one of these in his apartment because he used to study navy and battle ships, subs, u-boats, etc. and liked Germanies technologies)
http://www.sms-navy.com/SMS_Flag-s.gif

[RNK]

I don't really attribute the Iron Cross to Nazism. I do, however, attribute it to German imperialism, as the symbol has been used before and after the Nazi 3rd Reich, more often than not associated with some form of tyranny or oppression. The German Armed Forces still boast that symbol on the sides of their military vehicles.

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 10, 2007 04:51 am
German WW I with iron cross...
http://www.axishistory.com/fileadmin/user_upload/h/heer-officer-closeup.jpg
Dude man, thats totally WWII.....WWI germans didnt have the bloody eagle on their uniforms.

Not to be a stickler, but yeah...

[bcbm]

Meh. Many nazis use it as a kind of covert symbol, but other folks use it for its original meaning, without any racist affiliation, so it is hard to make a blanket judgement on it.

[Sand Castle]

Most people at my school just thing it's "a cross" and don't associate it with anything other than West Coast Choppers or Triple H (the WWE wrestler). I found a black colored iron cross pin on the ground last year. It was broken. I asked if it belonged to any of my friends and they said, "No, we don't watch West Coast Choppers." I said I thought it was more of Nazi thing then WCC and one of them said they thought that design of cross was Celtic. So I don't think this cross is associated with anything in particular. I guess what people will associate it with depends on the area you're in.

[WP_Joel]

The iron cross is simply a symbol of national chauvenism. Just like the stars and stripes or the union flag. Non of which I'm particuarly fond of.

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 03:42 pm
... we don't watch West Coast Choppers
Its a show?!?!?! I never knew what the fuck it was, other than a silly excuse for Iron Crosses on Hoodies worn by greasy pseudo-bikers.

[Sand Castle]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 05:57 pm

Its a show?!?!?! I never knew what the fuck it was, other than a silly excuse for Iron Crosses on Hoodies worn by greasy pseudo-bikers.
Yes, it's a show about motorcycles or something. I don't know why that show uses it as its logo. It doesn't bother me that they do, it just raises questions.

[welshred]

Isnt the cross some sort of logo?

[Coggeh]

It does associate with fascism but i see alot of people who draw and wear it who don't even know what fascism believe so don't start hurling rocks at random people who decide to wear it ..... just yet :P

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by EwokUtopia+February 10, 2007 08:07 am--> (EwokUtopia @ February 10, 2007 08:07 am)
Comrade [email protected] 10, 2007 04:51 am
German WW I with iron cross...
http://www.axishistory.com/fileadmin/user_upload/h/heer-officer-closeup.jpg
Dude man, thats totally WWII.....WWI germans didnt have the bloody eagle on their uniforms.

Not to be a stickler, but yeah... [/b]
Germany had Eagles within it's symbolism long before world war II.

The German Imperial Navy of WW I used the eagle on their flag:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Imperial_Navy

I don't know if it was on WW I uniforms though. The site the image is hosted on says it is, but it could be wrong. I can't seem to find many images of German military uniforms from the first world war, but for sure they had the iron cross.

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by sultan+February 12, 2007 06:33 pm--> (sultan @ February 12, 2007 06:33 pm)
[email protected] 12, 2007 05:57 pm

Its a show?!?!?! I never knew what the fuck it was, other than a silly excuse for Iron Crosses on Hoodies worn by greasy pseudo-bikers.
Yes, it's a show about motorcycles or something. I don't know why that show uses it as its logo. It doesn't bother me that they do, it just raises questions. [/b]
I think the show is different and it's called "American Chopper":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Chopper

It's a reaity show based on a family owned shop that makes custom motorcycles.

There was a thread about it on stormfront; they where upset when they found out the family is Jewish (or they suspected it), but before that it was a favourite show for some of them. :lol:

Then again, there could be two shows...

edit: ok, the show is American Chopper and it is related to WCC.

[bcbm]

American Chopper isn't that bad of a show.



...what, it was late at night and I was bored!

[Sand Castle]

Originally posted by black coffee black [email protected] 13, 2007 04:46 pm
American Chopper isn't that bad of a show.




We never said it was bad.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by sultan+February 13, 2007 10:48 am--> (sultan @ February 13, 2007 10:48 am)
black coffee black [email protected] 13, 2007 04:46 pm
American Chopper isn't that bad of a show.




We never said it was bad. [/b]
I didn't say you did, though I suspect it isn't a commonly watched show among the residents here.

[Sand Castle]

Originally posted by black coffee black [email protected] 13, 2007 04:56 pm

I didn't say you did, though I suspect it isn't a commonly watched show among the residents here.
I don't know about the other users, but I find it boring (no offense). Automaniac was pretty cool, though. But Automaniac didn't involve an iron cross, which means I have now put us off topic. YAY!

[welshred]

I find american chopper boring, I dont know if its just me or does anyone else think that at times it is scripted?

[ElliDisaster]

I consider the Iron cross pre-fascism and that because Hitler never really invented his own symbols but always nicked them, I dont consider it Fascist.
Has nothing to do with this tho but its like saying the pentagram is Militarist because the Americans had it on there Fighter planes.

[RedKnight]

I once saw a wristband with ironcrosses on a red background, in a christian bookstore. :blink:

[Sand Castle]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 05:31 am
I once saw a wristband with ironcrosses on a red background, in a christian bookstore. :blink:
It was probably just a regular Christian thing. There are several designs of crucifixs out there. The iron cross was just a design stolen by Christian fascists because they thought it looked good. I know you know that already. I'm sure everyone also knows that not all religous people are fascists, Christians included. I'm religous (raised Catholic), but I'm not fascist. But there I go restating the obvious again.

[Lenin II]

I think the iron cross symbol is fine. What I'm pissed about is how neo-Nazis fucked up the Celtic cross for everyone. Hell, Stormfront even has it as their symbol, for god's sake.

Originally a symbol for the Celts of ancient Ireland and Scotland, the Celtic cross has been stolen by many white supremacist groups, beginning with the far-right National Front in England. The cross is often accompanied by the slogan, “White Pride World Wide.” To white supremacists, it carries the hatred of a burning cross—it reminds them that Jews and blacks, among others, are inferior beings to the Anglo Saxon race. And that’s too bad, because it’s a cool looking symbol.

[RASHskins]

Yea those damn neo nazi's ruin everything. Like if you were irish or scottish and got it just to symbolize you were you would automatically be branded a racist.

[socialistpunk]

the iron cross is just a award symbol for valour in the german army also was used by the tutonic knights of germany in the middle ages so its got its routes furthur back then ww2 and is'nt really a nazi symbol more of a german symbol in my view

[A-S M.]

I have a hooligan sweater with the iron cross on it, I won't keep wearing it... it's pretty ^^

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 06:40 pm
Isnt the cross some sort of logo?
The cross used by the Germans is actually also referred to as the 'Matese cross' and to this day it still appears on the flag of Malta-
http://www.appliedlanguage.com/flags_of_the_world/large_flag_of_malta.gif

[BOZG]

It wasn't until the G8 that I realised that the German army still use the Iron Cross.

[BOZG]

The Maltese Cross and Iron Cross are different.

[RedArmyFaction]

i don't see the iron cross as fascist or racist.i t was usedl ong before the nazis

[ChickenJoe]

Yeah the Iron Cross has been around for centuries and many countries and governments have used it....and the only reason that the nazis used it was because it was already a medal for the armed forces of germany.

[Sir_No_Sir]

Yeah, it totally depends on the context. I think that in most instances, it's not a racist/fash symbol. Hell, i'm wearing a U of I shirt right now that has a blue cross similar to it...

[Never Give In]

It is not as tainted as the Swastika (I don't say Swastika either, but the actual Swastika was tainted because of the Hakenkreutz), but it is sometimes associated with Nazism, but only by people who don't know that it has been a German Military symbol for Centuries. It's more Nationalist than Nazi.

[Never Give In]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 02:10 am
What does everyone here think of the Iron Cross symbol? Is it as tainted by ascism as the other symbols of Nazi/Fascist regime like the Fasces and Hakenkreutz (I refuse to call it a swastika, because it wasnt, no Nazi ever said "Swastika", and we taint Eastern traditions by this association of two very different symbols)

Point in case, we often see people wearing the West Coast Choppers shirts, and I doubt Im the only one here who sees that symbol and wonders if the wearer is a skinhead before I read the words of the logo. Is the Iron Cross merely a symbol, as harmless as the 5-pointed star (which also has somewhat removed bad connentations-American Empire anyone?), or is the Iron Cross forever stained by the remnant of its fascist use?
The Fasces was an Italian Fascist symbol that I think pictured a bunch of branches or some shit like that. it was supposed to mean Strength Through Unity, in Mussolini's book. Hakenkreutz is the only real alternative (and more accurate) name for Swastika.

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by Never Give [email protected] 08, 2007 05:37 pm
The Fasces was an Italian Fascist symbol that I think pictured a bunch of branches or some shit like that. it was supposed to mean Strength Through Unity, in Mussolini's book. Hakenkreutz is the only real alternative (and more accurate) name for Swastika.
On a different note, does anybody else remember when Bush was giving one of his early speeches about the "imminent evils of terrorism" and he compared the terrorists to the fascists which share the same evil?

Funny thing is he said it infront of this:
http://www.sovereignearth.org/catalog/images/fasces_US_congress.jpg


Was I the only one who was floored by laughing at the irony here? I know it was lost on all of his supporters, but still, made me laugh in a very cynical and sardonic way.

[Comrade Rage]

The Iron Cross has been used by the German Army since 1074 and still is the official symbol of the German Army. Several of ancestors have been awarded them. Hitler just stole most of German symbolism and stuck his swastikas on whatever. (The swastika isn't even his.)
I have seveal Iron Cross pins and chains, but WITHOUT the swastika in the center and the '1939' or '1944' in it.

(Very late to this thread, I know.)

[Dimentio]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 02:10 am
What does everyone here think of the Iron Cross symbol? Is it as tainted by ascism as the other symbols of Nazi/Fascist regime like the Fasces and Hakenkreutz (I refuse to call it a swastika, because it wasnt, no Nazi ever said "Swastika", and we taint Eastern traditions by this association of two very different symbols)

Point in case, we often see people wearing the West Coast Choppers shirts, and I doubt Im the only one here who sees that symbol and wonders if the wearer is a skinhead before I read the words of the logo. Is the Iron Cross merely a symbol, as harmless as the 5-pointed star (which also has somewhat removed bad connentations-American Empire anyone?), or is the Iron Cross forever stained by the remnant of its fascist use?
The choppers are just using it to be provocative. The Malteser cross is a symbol for the crusades and for the Prussian Military.