China and Taiwan

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

essentially, what is the history between these two countries.

Is Taiwan an actual country?

And what is the solution?

Because, i heard it could mean China and the U$ go to war.

[EwokUtopia]

Hah, the US and China will never go to war, because neither are led by suicidal idiots (Bush is not in charge) and the leaders of the world, evil as they may be, do not want to exterminate themselves in a fatal third world war....wheres the profit in that?

As for Taiwan and China, two groups of capitalists squabbling over who is more Chinese and who should represent China. Taiwan has more or less stopped doing this because they realize it is a futile as an ant challenging an elephant. Its really inconsequential who rules the island of Taiwan, both are capitalists (despite the red stars and omnipresence of the late Chairman Mao) and both are Chinese, so there wouldnt be a huge cultural and nationalistic friction if one rules the other as there is in Tibet. The Kuomintang was a fascist peice of shit, but they are no longer really in complete power of Taiwan, so I am a little more sympathetic to them now.

I dont think this is an issue that will be solved at the point of a gun. Way too much friction around it. When was the last time a superpower invaded an ally of another superpower?
Oh yes, I remember, September 1939.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Taiwan was the island the Koumitang retreated to after the 1949 defeat. It remained a US backed military dictatorship until the early 90s I think. Right now they have an extremely corrupt and nationalistic government in place that is resisting the PRC. The PRC however, wants the ROC (Taiwan) back and has threatened war if the ROC actually formalizes its de facto independence from the PRC. The US, I think supports the ROC but since it has heavy investments in the PRC supports it as well.

That is basically my understanding of the situation.

[Cheung Mo]

As one who is hostile to both Washington and Beijing, I believe that the Taiwanese people (excluding the fascists who lost the Chinese Civil War and their descendants, who deserve no political and human rights whatsoever) have the absolute right to decide their future without any political, military, or economic interference from Washington or Beijing.

And while I deplore the economic liberalism of the Chen administration (although at best, the KMT would be just as bad), it is laughable to compare the corruption of Chen and his political allies (which I do believe to exist) to the fetid pile of rot and deadwood that makes up the Kuomintang and the other pan-Chinese parties of the far-right.

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by Cheung [email protected] 10, 2007 06:05 pm
excluding the fascists who lost the Chinese Civil War and their descendants, who deserve no political and human rights whatsoever
What do you mean by this? I dont think you can simply revoke anybodys human rights simply because you dont like them. Would you impale the former Kuomintang on giant pikes? Would you hang-draw-quarter them? Howabout good old crucifixion?

As leftists, I think we have the obligation to not be brutal sadistic fucks, Human rights are not up for grabs.

[Whitten]

Originally posted by EwokUtopia+February 10, 2007 06:37 pm--> (EwokUtopia @ February 10, 2007 06:37 pm)
Cheung [email protected] 10, 2007 06:05 pm
excluding the fascists who lost the Chinese Civil War and their descendants, who deserve no political and human rights whatsoever
What do you mean by this? I dont think you can simply revoke anybodys human rights simply because you dont like them. Would you impale the former Kuomintang on giant pikes? Would you hang-draw-quarter them? Howabout good old crucifixion?

As leftists, I think we have the obligation to not be brutal sadistic fucks, Human rights are not up for grabs. [/b]
No they're not but some people just lose there's by being evil pricks.

[Janus]

Is Taiwan an actual country?
It depends on what you mean by country. Taiwan is definitely a country in terms of geography after all, Taiwan is a geographic designation. As for whether or not it's a sovereign nation, then yes it is one in all but name.


And what is the solution?
Unification is the only short-term solution to the tensions that continue. Of course, this is doubtful with the recently elected Taiwanese President Chen in power.


Because, i heard it could mean China and the U$ go to war.
In the past perhaps but now it is very unlikely as they are so economically tied.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by EwokUtopia+February 10, 2007 06:37 pm--> (EwokUtopia @ February 10, 2007 06:37 pm)
Cheung [email protected] 10, 2007 06:05 pm
excluding the fascists who lost the Chinese Civil War and their descendants, who deserve no political and human rights whatsoever
What do you mean by this? I dont think you can simply revoke anybodys human rights simply because you dont like them. Would you impale the former Kuomintang on giant pikes? Would you hang-draw-quarter them? Howabout good old crucifixion?

As leftists, I think we have the obligation to not be brutal sadistic fucks, Human rights are not up for grabs. [/b]
It's not that we think fascists are nerdy and uncool, its that they are active suppressors and exploiters of the working class and working class movements. During the dictatorship of the proletariat, why shouldn't they be liquidated? They liquidated us during the dictatorship of the bourgiousie. We're not liberals.

[Xiao Banfa]

excluding the fascists who lost the Chinese Civil War and their descendants, who deserve no political and human rights whatsoever

Cheung Mo never ceases to repulse.


During the dictatorship of the proletariat, why shouldn't they be liquidated? They liquidated us during the dictatorship of the bourgiousie. We're not liberals.

Well the difference is marxism is about the flowering of humanity and the realisation of human potential.

The proletariat is the class that will lead humanity into a world in which we behave not as beasts but as liberated humans free from power and greed and other negative aspects of "human nature". These are positive goals.

We want to keep our humanity, if we avoid killing enemies of the socialist order unless we really need to we will preserve our humanity.

This doesn't mean imposing an inflexible code which inhibits the victory of our cause. That however is different to the mentality that we have a carte blanche to behave as murderously as the bourgeoisie because "they did it to us".

[Mikhail Frunze]

Is Taiwan an actual country?

Of course not. Taiwan is an inseparable province of the People's Republic of China. The "Republic of China" regime has no international legitimacy.

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 01:47 am
It's not that we think fascists are nerdy and uncool, its that they are active suppressors and exploiters of the working class and working class movements. During the dictatorship of the proletariat, why shouldn't they be liquidated? They liquidated us during the dictatorship of the bourgiousie. We're not liberals.
Liquidated how? If by removed from power, by violence if necessary, then yes, i agree with you, but once they are removed from power, they should be treated in a humaine and civilized way, no matter how brutal and appauling their actions were. Revenge is a fruitless endevour, what do you hope to achieve by it? Removal from power by use of violence is one thing, inflicting violence on prisoners as a way of retribution is another.

So are only Liberals opposed to the ability of the state (dictatorship of the proletariate is a form of state control) to take away anybodys fundamental human rights? If this makes me a liberal, then slap my ass and call me a Kennedy

This whole "they did it to us so we should do it back to them" mentality is so childish.

Besides, a dictatorship of the proletariate has never historically been a good thing. It creates an unstable amount of power that provides the perfect climate for sadistic paranoid fucks like Kim Jong Il and Joseph Stalin to rise. The dictatorship of the proletariate does not advance any revolution. It stalls it, corrupts it, brings it into state capitalism, and eventually back to regular capitalism. Mao's China and Lenins USSR were once "dictatorships of the proletariate", and my god, what sucess stories! Why we have lovely people like Hu Jintao and Vlad Putin running those dictatorships of the former proletariate. Grow up man, things have changed since 1917, and refusal to change and take the lessons of history to heart is, dare I say it, reactionary.

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by Mikhail [email protected] 11, 2007 06:47 am

Is Taiwan an actual country?

Of course not. Taiwan is an inseparable province of the People's Republic of China. The "Republic of China" regime has no international legitimacy.
All nations are fictional. They are invisible lines arbitrarily drawn on a map with silly little peices of coloured cloth flying over them as a symbol of a ficticious concept of national unity. It doesnt matter if the peices of cloth have the stars and stripes, or the sickle and hammer, the fact that they represent national divisions runs far deeper than the idealogies supporting these divisions.

Пока есть государство, нет свободы. Когда будет свобода, не будет государства: While the State exists, there can be no freedom. When there is freedom there will be no State.
- VI Lenin (before his revolution was betrayed by the inevitable corruption of state power, which really broke the ice when the ice pick broke Trotsky's skull)

[China studen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 12:05 am
essentially, what is the history between these two countries.

Is Taiwan an actual country?

And what is the solution?

Because, i heard it could mean China and the U$ go to war.
Oh! My God!

Please be clear about a fact: Taiwan is since the ancient
times a China's part, Taiwan all has not always become "the country"!

Taiwan sooner or later all must return to the People's Republic of
China bosom!

[Mikhail Frunze]

All nations are fictional.

No, they are not. A nation is by definition a people united by language, history, culture, and so forth. You can argue that political boundaries are artificial but you cannot say the same for a nation. It is impossible to deny that Japan, for example, is a nation. But it is valid to argue that Iraq is an entirely fictional state. Same goes for all the meaningless political boundaries drawn up in Africa by the imperialists.



They are invisible lines arbitrarily drawn on a map with silly little peices of coloured cloth flying over them as a symbol of a ficticious concept of national unity.

It's clear you do not know what a nation is. A nation is not a recognized political state but is simply a group of people united by language, culture, and history. Pakistan is not a nation but the Pashtuns are. Iraq is not a nation but the Kurds are. Iran is not a nation but the Persians are. And so forth.

[EwokUtopia]

I think I am obviously speaking of nations as synonymous with states, which they are. What is nationalism but extreme power to the state with chauvanistic rhetoric to juice it up?

United Nations anyone??

The word nation, like most words in the english language has several meanings, but I am obviously reffering to its most common connentation which is synonymous with state power.

[Xiao Banfa]

Nations have been developed by historical circumstances.

A given nation shares a common philosophical mentality, language and culture.
Some nation-states are artificial collections of nations (France- Basqueland, Brittany, Provence etc.)

Sometimes through the progression of history these groups merge to form a shared national identity with varying degrees of unity.

Whether a nation wants independence is really up to the people of that nation.

In many cases a nations must liberate themselves from imperialism first before we can move beyond the idea of nations and towards a common humanity.

Since such a move must happen on the basis of a level playing field.

To prematurely disregard nations is idealist- also premature and unscientific.

[Xiao Banfa]

Btw, the Kuomintangs Taiwanese "independance" is just an engineered piece of bullshit.

It's like if the was an anti-imperialist revolution in the Phillipines :D and a bunch of fascists fled to offshore island and set up a traitorous dictatorship allied with imperialism.

I say fuck 'em. I have no sympathy for Taiwanese "independance".

[Janus]

Taiwanese independence is a bit more complicated than that. It has actually existed for much longer than the GMD occupation in 1949. It originally resulted from cultural and ethnic divisions and the movement really took off during the Japanese occupation and resurfaced once the GMD took over. Thus, the matter of independence isn't simply a GMD engineered event (the GMD actually opposes independence for several different reasons) but is due to much older and larger factors.

[Xiao Banfa]

Yeah sorry. That's right, the Guomindang don't want independence now.

Have they ever wanted it. I mean they did lay more foundations due to the occupation.

I just really think reunification would heal a lot of divisions. Of course it may mean allowing a different political system. For the interim, at least.

Who knows how and when it will happen.

[Janus]

Have they ever wanted it.
No, they disapproved of it during Jiang Jieshi's rule because it conflicted with his desires to seize back the mainland and re-unite China. Their current position is that immediate independence is too dangerous and risky of a matter to pursue.