Help me argue with my grandpa

[insurgent]

I argue with my grandpa a lot about communism and capitalism. He's pretty conservative republican but he won’t actually admit it. He gives all the standard arguments against communism and no matter what I say I can't change his mind.


He has admitted that it was a good idea (I get that a lot and find it funny. "Its a great idea! but it will never work" :rolleyes:) but the state will never "wither away" because power corrupts and nobody will give power up



The Proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the bourgeoise, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e., of the proletariat organized as the ruling class; and to increase the total of productive forces as rapidly as possible

then Marx says


When, in the course of development, class distinctions have disappeared, and all production has been concentrated in the hands of a vast association (associated individuals) of the whole nation, the public power will lose its political character.

He is talking about the proletariat organizing itself as a ruling class, abolishing the old conditions of production, thereby eliminating the existence of class antagonisms, and this will abolish its own supremacy as a class.

Can someone please explain this in a little more detail to me?

[Janus]

Can someone please explain this in a little more detail to me?
How so. You've pretty much summarized it right there: the proletariat will seize the means of production, establish a dictatorship of the proletariat, and progress towards communism.

As for your grandpa, continue discussing with him but don't feel bad if you aren't able to convince him. As people get older, they're less and less likely to ditch their ingrained beliefs.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

^ditto, I think there are comprehensive studies on that subject.

[Sand Castle]

Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2007 09:11 pm


He has admitted that it was a good idea (I get that a lot and find it funny. "Its a great idea! but it will never work" :rolleyes:) but the state will never "wither away" because power corrupts and nobody will give power up



What if the dictator becomes greedy and becomes a tyrant like the previous rulers (Kings and Queens)? Do we elect these dictators every so often? In the book Animal Farm that is what happened with the pigs. Napoleon basicaly became the new Farmer Jones (or whoever). I'm not argueing against anyone, I just have a few questions. If it makes you feel any better about me, I've recently been called a moron on another board.

[Tekun]

Keep arguing with your gramps, sooner or later he'll have to face that socialism/communism is logically better than capitalism for every day folks
Use alot of workers examples to show him how capitalism fucks us all over
For example: why should workers be paid less then they're bosses, for doing far more work?
Or: workers and everyday ppl know more about the problems of society as a whole (because they live in society), than a group of upper class politicians who don't nor will ever live in our neighborhoods, so they should be the ones with political power

[ComradeR]

Originally posted by sultan+February 10, 2007 08:01 am--> (sultan @ February 10, 2007 08:01 am)
[email protected] 09, 2007 09:11 pm


He has admitted that it was a good idea (I get that a lot and find it funny. "Its a great idea! but it will never work" :rolleyes:) but the state will never "wither away" because power corrupts and nobody will give power up



What if the dictator becomes greedy and becomes a tyrant like the previous rulers (Kings and Queens)? Do we elect these dictators every so often? In the book Animal Farm that is what happened with the pigs. Napoleon basicaly became the new Farmer Jones (or whoever). I'm not argueing against anyone, I just have a few questions. If it makes you feel any better about me, I've recently been called a moron on another board.[/b]
I think your confused about what the dictatorship of the proletariat is. It is the period following the revolution, where the working class has seized the means of production and created a workers state. i.e. it's the dictatorship of the working class over the bourgeoisie, not a dictatorship of one person over the people. It's run through workers councils like the Russian soviets, not by the will of one person.

[ComradeR]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 12:22 pm
For example: why should workers be paid less then they're bosses, for doing far more work?
Exactly, like the fact that an average worker must work a full year to earn the same amount a CEO often makes in a day.

[Sand Castle]

Originally posted by ComradeR+February 10, 2007 12:38 pm--> (ComradeR @ February 10, 2007 12:38 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 08:01 am

[email protected] 09, 2007 09:11 pm


He has admitted that it was a good idea (I get that a lot and find it funny. "Its a great idea! but it will never work" :rolleyes:) but the state will never "wither away" because power corrupts and nobody will give power up



What if the dictator becomes greedy and becomes a tyrant like the previous rulers (Kings and Queens)? Do we elect these dictators every so often? In the book Animal Farm that is what happened with the pigs. Napoleon basicaly became the new Farmer Jones (or whoever). I'm not argueing against anyone, I just have a few questions. If it makes you feel any better about me, I've recently been called a moron on another board.
I think your confused about what the dictatorship of the proletariat is. It is the period following the revolution, where the working class has seized the means of production and created a workers state. i.e. it's the dictatorship of the working class over the bourgeoisie, not a dictatorship of one person over the people. It's run through workers councils like the Russian soviets, not by the will of one person. [/b]
Oh, I see now. Maybe they should call it something other than "dictatorship." That would make it more clear to people.

[norwegian commie]

Ive got a couple a things you could say to him.

If he complains about stalin, and the many deaths in "communist" countries. Then say that in India, in their period of Capitalism over 100 million people died UNNESSESARILY. That strictly because of capitalism and capitalists.

And if he say that a planned economy is wothless. Say that a planned economy has caused the fastest, largest economy the world has ever seen. The sovjet union. Industrialised in 20 years. Alfabetised in 10!

[insurgent]

I've told him most of that stuff, but because he is old he wont change his opinion. I can understand that, but I dont understand how he cannot see that just because Bill O' Reilly hates communism doesnt mean communism is bad :lol:

All he ever hears about communism comes from mainstream stuff, but he wont call it propaganda for some reason. But he will tell me that me preaching communism is propaganda.


norwegian commie, I'm curious about how socialistic norway really is. I've been there, and from what I saw it was really clean, and the people were really nice. But there are quite a few threads about how capitalist norway is.

[Les Enragés]

Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2007 09:11 pm
I argue with my grandpa a lot about communism and capitalism. He's pretty conservative republican but he won’t actually admit it. He gives all the standard arguments against communism and no matter what I say I can't change his mind.


He has admitted that it was a good idea (I get that a lot and find it funny. "Its a great idea! but it will never work" :rolleyes:) but the state will never "wither away" because power corrupts and nobody will give power up



The Proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the bourgeoise, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e., of the proletariat organized as the ruling class; and to increase the total of productive forces as rapidly as possible

then Marx says


When, in the course of development, class distinctions have disappeared, and all production has been concentrated in the hands of a vast association (associated individuals) of the whole nation, the public power will lose its political character.

He is talking about the proletariat organizing itself as a ruling class, abolishing the old conditions of production, thereby eliminating the existence of class antagonisms, and this will abolish its own supremacy as a class.

Can someone please explain this in a little more detail to me?
Tell your Granpa to read Homage to Catalonia by George Orwell

[insurgent]

Originally posted by Les Enragé[email protected] 12, 2007 01:21 pm
Tell your Granpa to read Homage to Catalonia by George Orwell
I actually own that book. Excellent idea i never even thought of that