Anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism

[razboz]

I was recently accused of being an anti-semite after i voiced strong opinions on Zionism.

What i started wondering is: Does being anti-israel means being anti-jewish?


Most people condemn anti-judaism and many of those who condemn zionism also condemn it.

However should this be the case? Many people who say that there is a Jewish conspiracy are classified under "insane" or "stupid". But in Palestine we have witnessed an actual jewish conspiracy to take land from the palestinians. ANd i am not making this a race issue, because that's bollocks. I am making this a religion issue, because the Israelis have already done this.

So what I'm asking is : is anti-judaism (i use this instead of the term "anti-semitsm") necessarily wrong? I know the jews are unbeleivably touchy about themselves, like they have some special right over the rest of us for having their grand parents/parents killed.

ANti-zionism necessarily means being anti-jewish after all. So how can anyone both claim to not hate jews and hate israel? What kind of justification is there to this?

I am prepared to change my mind on this one so please discuss.

Oh and by hate i mean "have strong discordances with" or "not approve of" and not "want to kill/destroy"

[ahab]

just because you are anti-zionism doesnt mean you dont like jews, there are jews all over the world, not just in Israel, zionism is an israeli thing. Zionism is more about land is it not? Its the jewish right to have Israel, which is bullshit btw. If you oppose zionism, that doesnt mean you dont like jews lol

[chimx]

Its not as if the Palestinian mandate was Yesterday, or that Herzl was speaking of a jewish homeland last week. There are generations upon generations living in Israel right now, and having the hardened stance to advocate the dissolution of Israel completely is both naive and unkind. The mistreatment, segregation and exploitation of Palestinians is what is the problem. Telling the Jews to leave isn't going to solve anything.


ANti-zionism necessarily means being anti-jewish after all. So how can anyone both claim to not hate jews and hate israel? What kind of justification is there to this?

I think that is a very historically insensitive position to take. Regardless of whether Jews constitute their own ethnic group is irrelevant. They are perceived by people to be their own ethnic group and have had to deal with centuries of racism and oppression because of it. Solving racism with more racism isn't going to aid Palestinians.

[LSD]

What i started wondering is: Does being anti-israel means being anti-jewish?

No. No more than being anti-Nazi meant being anti-german or being anti-appartheid meant being anti-white.


Many people who say that there is a Jewish conspiracy are classified under "insane" or "stupid". But in Palestine we have witnessed an actual jewish conspiracy to take land from the palestinians.

No "we" haven't.

Conspiracies are clandestine, the Zionist agenda is anything but. And the fact that some Jews have decided to enact a racist expansionist policy is hardly evidence for a "jewish conspiracy".

In fact all that it shows is that Jews are just like any other human being and can get caught up in reactionary racist politics.


So how can anyone both claim to not hate jews and hate israel?

Easily.

[Councilman Doug]

I know the jews are unbeleivably touchy about themselves, like they have some special right over the rest of us for having their grand parents/parents killed.

No, you think Jews are generally "touchy". To actually know something you must at least have some evidence and clearly none exists for such an ignorant statement.

If you do in fact beleif this you probably do hold some anti semetic sympathies.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2007 02:30 pm
Most people condemn anti-judaism and many of those who condemn zionism also condemn it.
What is this bullshit quibble? Anti-semitism vs anti-judaism? Prejudice and bigotry have to be opposed, period. Please, explain where you stand on that.

(Just as a minor side point: Anti-semitism simply means "discrimination against or prejudice or hostility toward Jews." Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/anti-semitism). It doesn't specify racist or religious hatred. So your "anti-Judaism" is, in fact, included in that.[/url]

From your later paragraphs you're apparently saying it's OK to target a religious group, just not a race. "ANd i am not making this a race issue, because that's bollocks. I am making this a religion issue,"

Take a look at what's happening in Iraq right now, or any of the many other pogroms or systems of discrimination promoted against religious groups. All of those are every bit as unacceptable and reactionary as racism.

That includes bigotry directed against Jews based on their religion. Both the Middle East, and even more medieval Europe have a long history of that. Long before it occurred to anyone to claim Jews were an inferior race. Are you saying it's OK to revive that?

Please, justify yourself.


However should this be the case? Many people who say that there is a Jewish conspiracy are classified under "insane" or "stupid". But in Palestine we have witnessed an actual jewish conspiracy to take land from the palestinians.

How is that a conspiracy? Conspiracy implies secret cabals maneuvering behind the scenes. The Zionist movement, in contrast, openly advocated turning Palestine into a "Jewish National Home", won the support of imperialist powers for this project, and carried it out in broad daylight by brute force.


ANd i am not making this a race issue, because that's bollocks. I am making this a religion issue, because the Israelis have already done this.

How is this a religion issue? A lot of Israel's founders weren't Jews by religion, like Prime Minister Golda Meir for example.

See earlier on how bigotry against a group singled out by religion is every bit as much "bollocks" as bigotry against a group singled out by skin color or "race". It's completely arbitrary how people are singled out for scapegoating. If there were no other differences to use, the system would make a big deal out of eye color or being left-handed.


ANti-zionism necessarily means being anti-jewish after all. So how can anyone both claim to not hate jews and hate israel?

What? Did you have to hate Dutch people in order to oppose apartheid?

No, this is bullshit. Anti-Zionism means being against the creation of a colonial-settler state that put European Jews ruling over the remnants of the native Arab population.

It does not mean being anti-Jewish. In fact many Jews oppose Zionism, even more opposed it in the past, and there's a whole critique of Zionism purely on the basis that it can't meet the needs of the Jewish people. Instead, it's concentrated many of them in one place, amid hostile neighbors, and dependent on the imperialist powers. Imperialist powers which probably will have to rely on fascism and scapegoating Jews for the sins of capitalism, again, at some point in the future.....

Is this some kind of desperate plea for attention?

[luxemburg89]

I am not anti-semitic. I have jewish friends etc same old cliché. i also oppose zionism. There should be no jewish race, or a christian or a muslim, it should all be one (without a bloody religion). Why should one religion have a special land for them, what makes one race above another - no race is above another. Zionism is segregation comrade. You are not anti-semitic my friend, whoever said that was talking out of their arse.

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

It's a cheap, lame trick to say one is anti-semitic if they despise Israel. I am opposed to any and all millitaristic states, Israel included. Yet I am a firm admire of the tenacity of Jewish people such as Abbie Hoffman and his fellow Yippies, the Jewish anarchist movement, and others who have opposed the power structure of today's society. There are plenty of Jewish people who find Israel reprehensible.

[WP_Joel]

I went to a seminar entitled "anti zionism is not anti semitism". It was by a rabbi from a very small sect of orthodox Jews who are mainly ostracized by the wider Jewish community for their attitude towards the state of Israel.

He gave a very religious arguement in the sense that he said that Zionism was simply an abhorration from Judaism (as it is comparatively new) and that from a religious stand point (ie religious texts) the state of Israel should never have been created.

He argued for a one-state solution of Palestine in which Jews and Muslims were both a part of.

He did only really give across religious arguements and came across as a bit of a self-hater. However it was very good to hear a rabbi who was anti-zionist which I doubt is a common occurance.

[keelan]

Does being anti-israel means being anti-jewish?

No i think its what Israel and the US want people to beleive so it would make it harder to question their policies without being called a bigot.

[Councilman Doug]

You are not anti-semitic my friend, whoever said that was talking out of their arse.

How is making a hateful statment against Jews in general not anti semetic?

[Luís Henrique]

To the people who are supportin razboz,

please read carefully what he is stating:


Many people who say that there is a Jewish conspiracy are classified under "insane" or "stupid". But in Palestine we have witnessed an actual jewish conspiracy to take land from the palestinians.

Now, take notice that there is a conflation here.

"Many people" do not state that there are "Jewish conspiracies".

What those "many people" state is that there is a "Jewish conspiracy" in which all Jews are involved, and that has, as its aim, "controlling the world".

Of course Jews do conspire: some of them, for instance, conspired to kill Itzhak Rabin. It has to do with the fact that Jews are human, and humans conspire.

But there is not such a thing as "the Jewish conspiracy" to "control the world".

To come with the idea that it is somehow justified to entertain "Jewish conspiracy" fantasies, because (some) Jews have "conspirated" to steal land from Palestinians, is either very naïve, or very subtly playing on other people's naïveté.

So, unhappily, I have to ask,

What are you doing, razboz?

Luís Henrique

[Coggeh]

Cospiracies are things that cannot be proven , in alot of cases, but in this case it should not be discounted . also it is not anti semitic to disagree with the current state of israel , they formed racially segregated lands from arabs ... and then they go on to talk about how they were victims of racist attacks .. F**K THEM !

[Coggeh]

But what ive said does not count all jews .... theirs a good movement of israelis in israel fighting for socialism so for every cloud their is a sliver lining

[Sean]

Capitalism = Jews.
And like flies to shit the morons swarm...

The term anti-semite is a powerful propaganda tool to stifle all opinion contrary to the American and British line on Israeli actions in the middle east. I'll informed assholes DO exist though.

However, the term anti-semite really bugs me as it has created this country-race-religion one size fits all hate crime against any action a government makes. Its a beautiful piece of propaganda really, and unfortunately enough dickheads mouth off with a racist agenda to effectively drown out intelligent thought.

[EwokUtopia]

As crazy as it sounds, it wasnt until after I became extremely pro-palestinian that I came to have a profound respect for Jewish culture. I do not associate Israel with Jews, and such an association, be it done by Zionists or anti-Zionists is anti-semitic. Israel is a nation, and as a nation, it is completely seperate from the Jewish people on whole. Many many Jews ferverently oppose Israel and Zionism, they are our some of our most staunch allies in the struggle against Zionism. Most of the support for Israel in America comes from Christian Zionists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism), not Jewish Zionists. We must remember that, contrary to the claims of the far right, America is not controlled by Jews, but by White Conservative Christian Fundamentalists.

[razboz]

I will find msyelf respectfully disgreeing with you Ewok Utopia.

Surely you cannot actually beleive that the jewish relgion is not at all related to the Jewish State of Israel? That is absolutely astounding for me to hear...

Israel is Jewish state. Not a secular one in any shape, flavour or form. I would love to see you justify on non-religious grounds the existance of the right of return laws on non judeo-centric terms....

Seriously i am completely dumbfounded by this view Ewok. Please justify/expand?

Disclaimer: I am not anti-semitic READ (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=22496&st=200)

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Coggy+February 11, 2007 11:56 am--> (Coggy @ February 11, 2007 11:56 am) Cospiracies are things that cannot be proven , in alot of cases, but in this case it should not be discounted . also it is not anti semitic to disagree with the current state of israel , [/b]
What kind of conspiracy are you referring in the context of this discussion?


coggy
they formed racially segregated lands from arabs ... and then they go on to talk about how they were victims of racist attacks .. F**K THEM !

Who's they?

How does the actions of the israeli state lessen the seriousness of racist attacks against jews generally? Or Israeli jews specifically?

[Coggeh]

Originally posted by black [email protected] 15, 2007 02:59 pm

What kind of conspiracy are you referring in the context of this discussion?



Who's they?

How does the actions of the israeli state lessen the seriousness of racist attacks against jews generally? Or Israeli jews specifically?
Razboz:

"we have witnessed an actual jewish conspiracy to take land from the palestinians."

They .... The Israeli state.They go on and on about racist attacks on them but they throw Arab civilians off their land and build a big wall around their homes...... is that not racism ?

Calling the Israeli state racist does not mean i hate Jews.I hold alot of respect for Israeli citizens who see past their state lies and try to find unity between them and the Palestinians .

It doesn't but 2wrongs don't make a right, complaining about the brutal holocaust one day and then killing innocents Arabs the other 364days is just plain hipocracy .

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by coggy+--> (coggy)Razboz:
"we have witnessed an actual jewish conspiracy to take land from the palestinians."[/b]

How are the policies of the Israeli state an 'actual jewish conspiracy'?


coggy
It doesn't but 2wrongs don't make a right, complaining about the brutal holocaust one day and then killing innocents Arabs the other 364days is just plain hipocracy .

So 'FUCK THEM!'? I dont understand, do you care about racism against jewish people (and israeli jews specifically) or not?

On the one hand you dont think the racist policies of the israeli state lessen the seriousness of racist attacks against jews, but your previous response was 'fuck them!', implying that perhaps such attacks are deserved, or dont matter or that you dont really care because of the 'hypocrisy' you talk about? Can you clarify exactly what you mean please.

[Coggeh]

I wasn't the one who brought up the conspiracies i was simply defining it .

Obviously i do care about racism ,can you make sense of any posts ? .... I'm just stating if you go around talking about how racism is evil and then practice racism on other people is just simple hipocracy .

"So Fuck Them" ( im talking about the Israeli State and im saying fuck them because of the their hipocracy concerning the issue of racism , im not saying that the attacks on the jewish community as a whole are a lessened in anyway but don't complain about them unless you yourself are not a racist (which Israel clearly is)

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 09:10 am
I will find msyelf respectfully disgreeing with you Ewok Utopia.

Surely you cannot actually beleive that the jewish relgion is not at all related to the Jewish State of Israel? That is absolutely astounding for me to hear...

Israel is Jewish state. Not a secular one in any shape, flavour or form. I would love to see you justify on non-religious grounds the existance of the right of return laws on non judeo-centric terms....

Seriously i am completely dumbfounded by this view Ewok. Please justify/expand?

Disclaimer: I am not anti-semitic READ (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=22496&st=200)
The state of Israel is a unified political entity, the worldwide Jewry is not. You can not associate the Jews with anything because such association is a blatant generalization. True, the Israeli policy of aparthied is completely Judeocentric, but this is Israel that is favouring the Jews, not so much the Jews favouring Israel. That having been said, Im sure that if some poll were conducted you would find Jewish support for Israel at least above 50%. But I do not judge a people based on what their majority thinks, if 90% of Jews are Zionists, I will continue to look with admiration at the remaining 10% as the representitives for the Jews in my mind.

Point in case, we often hear praise of the proletariate in every sector of this site, but one must realize that the proletariate does not especially support communism. If you were to conduct another magic poll of all working class people and who among them supports radical left politics, you would find that the working class in support of the left (In the West at least) is a minority. However, we do not judge the proletariate based on what the ignorant many feel, we instead focus on the positive aspects, such as countering the omnipresent propaganda system that keeps the working class ignorant.

Also, when speaking of the Jews, one must distinguish between Judaism and the Jewish people, they do not allways synch up. Certainly Israel is a state of institutionalized Judaism, but judaism is not a solid religion, many religious Jews (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mebuDbe-4Is) oppose Israel out of religious means.

Now of course, the religious Jews who oppose Zionism are not representive of all Jewish opposition to Israel. Noam Chomsky is a prime example, but there are many others. Not In My Name (http://www.nimn.org/) instantly comes to mind, but Im sure you could find more.


I guess I could say I associate Israel with the Jews, but I dont associate the Jews with israel, if this makes any sense. However, I also associate Israel with Christian Fundamentalism, as it is essentially a proxy crusader state funded by the Pat Robertson Vanguard.
One must allways remember that not all Jews are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jews.

[RedSabine]

Race is meaningless. No race is better than any other race. Being anti-semetic and being anti-zionist are two very different things. Being anti-zionist is being anti-rascist. Being anti-semetic is being rascist. Therefor, they cannot go together.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 05:37 am
I wasn't the one who brought up the conspiracies i was simply defining it .

That you didnt bring it up is irrelevant, as you were re-posted what another member had said as your response; that is an endorsement of that members position or at least their choice of words.

And if you are going to do that, can you please explain how the policies of the Israeli state are a 'jewish conspiracy' as razboz claimed and you repeated?

[Coggeh]

You asked what kind of conspiracies are you refering too in your first responce post ... i so I quoted razboz . I never said that was my opinion.

[Coggeh]

Lets get my views straight here because you do seem to love taking things out of context just to bring a comrade down .I DO NOT have any dislikeing for jews as a race or a religion what i do have a problem with is the Israeli State ,when i say "they" i mean the state! unless ive specifically said otherwise . I am an anti-zionist not anti-semitic.

[pastradamus]

Originally posted by black rose+February 16, 2007 08:36 am--> (black rose @ February 16, 2007 08:36 am)
[email protected] 16, 2007 05:37 am
I wasn't the one who brought up the conspiracies i was simply defining it .


And if you are going to do that, can you please explain how the policies of the Israeli state are a 'jewish conspiracy' as razboz claimed and you repeated? [/b]
Its not a jewish conspiricy but it most definetly has a large element Zionists' conspiring. He simply mis-stated himself.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 03:10 am
I will find msyelf respectfully disgreeing with you Ewok Utopia.

Surely you cannot actually beleive that the jewish relgion is not at all related to the Jewish State of Israel? That is absolutely astounding for me to hear...

Israel is Jewish state. Not a secular one in any shape, flavour or form. I would love to see you justify on non-religious grounds the existance of the right of return laws on non judeo-centric terms....
I'm not going to justify them - but certainly plenty of secular Zionists would. And most of Israel's founders were secular, not particularly observant Jews, some of them atheists. The modern Zionist movement actually had to reject the traditional conception the Jewish religion had held for centuries - that the return to Zion could only happen when the Messiah returned.

Note that Israeli law doesn't say you have to be of the Jewish religion to be a Jew. In fact, a large part of the Israeli Jewish population, and political leadership, is not religiously observant.

The Law of Return classifies Jews as 1)Those whose mothers are Jewish or 2)Those who convert to the religion of Judaism. A lot more people fall under 1 than 2.

Some people argue for this on the basis that Israel exists for the sake of the Jewish people/nationality/ethnicity, and that converting is one way to become part of that nationality. That may actually be the most common way this discriminatory law is justified.

In any case, Israel's discriminatory laws certainly codify the supremacy of the Jewish nationality within it, in a basically racist way. Not necessarily the Jewish religion.

You're right the Israeli state isn't secular - for example, religious courts do have state enforcement powers. Jewish rabbinical students get draft exemptions. Etc. But religious Jews are not necessarily privileged over secular Jews - economically, the reverse may be true.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by coggy
You asked what kind of conspiracies are you refering too in your first responce post ... i so I quoted razboz . I never said that was my opinion.

Then why quote it?

You referred to a concept, when i asked you to explain what you meant by this concept you referred me to another person explaination - when you do something like that it is an endoresment of that explanation; if that quote didnt accurately represent your understanding of the concept you wouldnt have used it when i asked YOU to explain what YOU meant.

Now if that is not accurate, please explain in your own words, what YOU meant when you used the term 'jewish conspiracy'; i understand you were referring to the taking of land, im not interested in what the 'conspiracy' has achieved, but rather - on what basis you define this as a 'jewish conspiracy'.

[Coggeh]

Now if that is not accurate, please explain in your own words, what YOU meant when you used the term 'jewish conspiracy'; i understand you were referring to the taking of land, im not interested in what the 'conspiracy' has achieved, but rather - on what basis you define this as a 'jewish conspiracy'.

I've never pointed this out as a "jewish conpiracy" I've always pointed the blame at the state , not the jewish community .

Once again , I meant absolutly nothing when i defined ! what a conspiracy meant , i was replying to razboz i wasn't, stateing this as a jewish conspiracy .

Stop hovering over the same point , ive cleared this up time and time again ,why keep asking ?

[razboz]

Id just like to respond on the point of the Jewish conpiracy:

I personally define a conpiracy to be an association of criminals whose goal is to acheive conceive and/or carry out a crime. In this sense there has been a jewish concpiracy. It did not involve all jews. However it was initiated by jews (the zionist council coems to mind at this point) though ultimately carried out by a proxy (Western powers, the UK being one) and ultimately it was aimed to benefit the Jewish community exclusively which is enough to make it a conpiracy which is Jewish, i.e. a Jewish Concpiracy. Now if we define Jewish conpiracy to mean the global domination over economics, politics and so on as some kind of ceovert "Puppeteer" government ( to use the words f the banned member Proudhon) then i can find no concrete evidence pointing to this.

I just thought it could be useful to clear that up, having used the term.

@ Severian

I tend to use the term Jew or "of the Jewish religion" interchangable or in the stead of " of Jewish Nationality". I fail to see any real difference between the two. If you claim to be of the Jewish Nationality how can you deny your belonging to the Jewish Religion? Judaism is after all only defined by religion and not ( as some racists on both sides of the fence argue) etnicity or "race". I can almost never tell the difference between a jew and the next person (unless their wearing a kippa/flag of israel/david's star). For example there are black jews (from ethiopia i beleive) which cannot possibly be of the same ethnicity of european jews.

I say all this because we are talking of the jews as if they can be identified in any way from the next person. they cant. they're just regular individuals. Except they have religion, and some have nationalism.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 10:52 am
I tend to use the term Jew or "of the Jewish religion" interchangable or in the stead of " of Jewish Nationality". I fail to see any real difference between the two. If you claim to be of the Jewish Nationality how can you deny your belonging to the Jewish Religion?
Millions do deny it, and will go on denying it no matter how much it confuses you. If your theory doesn't conform to reality - change your theory, don't deny reality.

Again, especially in Israel. I keep making this point, and you keep ignoring it. According to Wikipedia:
As of 1999, 5% of Israeli Jews defined themselves as Haredim ("ultra-orthodox"); an additional 12% as "religious"; 35% as "traditionalists" (not strictly adhering to Jewish law or halakha); 43% as "secular"; and 5% as "anti-religious." Among all Israeli Jews, 65% believe in God and 85% participate in a Passover seder [1].
source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Israel)

So right there, 45% of Israeli Jews don't even believe in God. It's more among Israeli Jews of European descent - and that's who founded Israel.

Also from that Wikipedia article:Gallup International reports that 25% of Israeli citizens regularly attend religious services, compared to 15% of Jewish French citizens, 10% of Jewish UK citizens, and 57% of Jewish American citizens.

Even in the U.S.:
According to the AJIS, "More Jews than most other Americans respond 'None,' when asked 'What is your religion, if any?'.... Fewer Jews than members of most other American religious groups agree with the essential proposition of religious belief that 'God exists.'" Twenty-seven percent of all Jews are uncertain or reject theism, with only 14% of Americans saying they have no religion. The AJIS reported that by 2001 only 51% still believed in some form of Judaism, a 12% decline since 1990. By my reckoning, by this writing, a majority of US Jews reject Judaism. Even the NJPS 2000-1 concedes that only 46% belong to synagogues. That minority divides up 39% Reform, 33% Conservative, 21% Orthodox, 7% other types.
Emphasis added.
source (http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner10242003.html)

Jews in Central and Eastern Europe, and immigrant Jews from those countries, spoke Yiddish, which set them apart in language and culture - even if they abandoned religion. And of course Israeli Jews speak Hebrew, so right there another language-culture-nationality distinction.

Like it or not, Jews are a nationality as well as a religious group. More a nationality than a religious group, although a nationality partly defined through religion. That isn't the same thing as "race", which doesn't really exist for anyone. Jews are a nationality disappearing in the U.S. through assimilation and intermarriage, sure, but that's not the same as gone.

The Jewish people has long been recognized as a nationality, including by all factions of the socialist and communist movements of Central and Eastern Europe. Socialist and communist party programmes dealt with Jews as a nationality comparable to Germans, Czechs, Slovaks, Poles, Ukrainians, etc.

Zionism also treated Jews primarily as a nationality, and portrays itself as a "national liberation movement" - it does not think of itself as primarily a religious movement. To some extent that's changed after the foundation of Israel, with the religious extremist parties - whose base of support is often Arabic Jews.

Zionism's historic self-justification has often been parodied as "God doesn't exist, but he gave us this land."

[EwokUtopia]

Zionism is a half-baked national idealogy, but one must always remember that it is kept afloat by western, predominantly American, support. This support comes from the Christian Right, who are pissed off about waiting around for Jesus to come back, so they are trying to fulfill biblical prophesy themselves to bring about the Apocalypse. This is not a conspiracy theory, talk to any Christian Fundamentalist and he will tell you the same (but with a little more enthusiasm).




Reminds me of a joke I made up one fine day this month:




What does Michael Richards career have in common with Jesus Christ?


Neither of them are bound for a second comming.