Reforms, do they ultimately make us lazy?

[R_P_A_S]

I was just thinking about reforms. and reformist politicians, protest, and such things. Though at the moment It might seem good and needed by that particular group of people. In reality is an other big bone thrown at the people. something we can chew on for a lil' while... until we finish it.

As Capitalism grows so does the social gap and class antagonism! Our needs aren't met by "our government" they're just pacified, like the one you shove on a baby to suck on!

Reforms are better than nothing I suppose. But if you think about it, It's also an other weapon by the bourgeois to take our minds of the real problem and to slow down any movement. I would say it just satisfies SOME people. and all the sudden they aren't "activist" or "revolutionaries".

We fall back into the mentality Capitalism infected us with, survival of the fittest or the shallow cold hearted one, "get your money."

At home we sit watching yet another group of people; marching, protesting, demanding their rights! and their reform. And since is not our problem we don't really care. we aren't out there supporting them. That's what Capitalism does to you.

It makes you not care about your fellow proletariat. Because It has giving you all these "freedoms" to work hard, just so you can live and eat, so you can pay for your college tuition , your healthcare. It has flooded you with bills and cluster your own existence with images of its self.

From your Boss at work, to the parking meter outside, your electricity and water bill, your landlord and your insurance company. It's everywhere and your sole purpose in life seems to be going to work so that you can meet it's needs for your money, so that you can have "freedom" to enjoy life!

So do we take the bone, for now? Like we been for hundreds of years? Or do we throw it back and demand, take the whole food on table?

[Hit The North]

Reforms aren't handed out like sweets by the bourgeoisie. They have to be fought for by workers and they have to be defended by us.

Reforms aren't illusory. They are attempts to remedy real problems faced by the working class: health care, right to education, health & safety, progressive taxation, protection against unemployment, etc. The problem is that reforms are only a partial and temporary solution to out problems.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by Citizen [email protected] 07, 2007 08:40 pm
Reforms aren't handed out like sweets by the bourgeoisie. They have to be fought for by workers and they have to be defended by us.

Reforms aren't illusory. They are attempts to remedy real problems faced by the working class: health care, right to education, health & safety, progressive taxation, protection against unemployment, etc. The problem is that reforms are only a partial and temporary solution to out problems.
i don't know if you were implying that I said they were handed out.. I wasn't I pointed out protest, and marches.

[Fawkes]

In the 1890s, the anarchist Emma Goldman campaigned against the eight-hour workday, not because she thought people should work longer hours but because she thought that workers should not depend on the state to improve their condition. But at one of her speeches, an old worker came up to her and told her that he agreed with her argument, agreed that workers should reject palliatives and should not have the state act for them. But, he added, he was old -- he wasn't going to see the revolution, and a legislated shorter workday would give him some real liberty right now. Goldman changed her mind about the need for reforms, and concluded that seeking reforms in the here and now was important.


That quote was taken from this interview.
I posted this in a different thread on here and it is basically an anarchist historian defending the need for reforms. It's a pretty good interview.

[Hit The North]

Originally posted by R_P_A_S+February 07, 2007 09:43 pm--> (R_P_A_S @ February 07, 2007 09:43 pm)
Citizen [email protected] 07, 2007 08:40 pm
Reforms aren't handed out like sweets by the bourgeoisie. They have to be fought for by workers and they have to be defended by us.

Reforms aren't illusory. They are attempts to remedy real problems faced by the working class: health care, right to education, health & safety, progressive taxation, protection against unemployment, etc. The problem is that reforms are only a partial and temporary solution to out problems.
i don't know if you were implying that I said they were handed out.. I wasn't I pointed out protest, and marches. [/b]
Yeah, but the thread title 'do they make us lazy' suggests it. I was merely pointing out mobilization of workers and their organizations are necessary to realize and defend reforms.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by Citizen Zero+February 07, 2007 09:00 pm--> (Citizen Zero @ February 07, 2007 09:00 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 09:43 pm

Citizen [email protected] 07, 2007 08:40 pm
Reforms aren't handed out like sweets by the bourgeoisie. They have to be fought for by workers and they have to be defended by us.

Reforms aren't illusory. They are attempts to remedy real problems faced by the working class: health care, right to education, health & safety, progressive taxation, protection against unemployment, etc. The problem is that reforms are only a partial and temporary solution to out problems.
i don't know if you were implying that I said they were handed out.. I wasn't I pointed out protest, and marches.
Yeah, but the thread title 'do they make us lazy' suggests it. I was merely pointing out mobilization of workers and their organizations are necessary to realize and defend reforms. [/b]
I KNOW! but its obviously you didn't really read on. some people mobilize to get certain shit done. stuff that directly affects them.. once they get a new law passed or some sort of reform.. they got back to their lives.. while there's other people the next city over fighting for the same thing.. or for a different thing. they most likely wont care because is not their problem.. you get what im saying?

[Kia]

Thinking about reforms in a leftist point of view they are both needed and a hindrance.
On one side we need certain reforms to be passed so that the proletariat can survive. Take for example the current big debate on gay rights in America. If laws are not passed to allow equality to gays throughout America then they shall never gain the equality they deserve. In situations like this we need to push for reforms. Civil rights is something usually that needs reforms; rather then us leaving the ruling government alone in an attempt for them to commit more atrocities so we can benefit from it.
The other side of the reforms issue is that they can be nothing more then "bones" tossed to please the public and keep them under control. Also there are some "reforms" which in actuality do nothing more then remove liberties from the public or do very little to change the current issue.

Basically each reform and the current problem around it needs to be evaluated by the individual separately to see whether or not it is beneficial or critically needed.


I KNOW! but its obviously you didn't really read on. some people mobilize to get certain shit done. stuff that directly affects them.. once they get a new law passed or some sort of reform.. they got back to their lives.. while there's other people the next city over fighting for the same thing.. or for a different thing. they most likely wont care because is not their problem.. you get what im saying?

This does happen. Take black civil rights for instance; millions of people were outraged by the racism of the current government and demanded change. However once these changes were reached many people basically went back to their everyday lives. The thing is that more people were aware of the problems with the government during the push for civil rights and afterwards then ever before. Even if they don't suddenly realize that the government needs to be changed, everyday one of these issues occurred a little bit more of this realization creeps into the general public and we get one step closer.

[Red Menace]

The problem with reforms is that once a union or whatever manages to pass a reform bill, the capitalist will find a way to compensate for their loss in profits.

Such as if a reform bill is passed to require that a company have their facilities cleaned and in top physical peak condition on a regual rountine basis, when before the company got by, by keeping conditions in the workplace at a bare minimum, so that it wouldn't be considered a health risk. The company saved mass profits from this, by not having to pay repair men, janiters, new parts, etc.... But since the reform has been passed that they are required to keep it in top physical condition, and so they lose mass profits in their stores all across the country. So they begin laying off hundreds and hundreds of its empolyee's, raising the price on the product, etc... to compensate for the lossess. As soon as one problem is fixed, another problem is created to compensate.

[grove street]

Reforms can help lead the way to revolution.

It can work like a drug, give the proletriate a taste of things to come and they will be lining up for another hit.

[Janus]

It won't give them as much of a "taste of what to come" as it will sedate them into supporting the ruling class.


once they get a new law passed or some sort of reform.. they got back to their lives.. while there's other people the next city over fighting for the same thing.. or for a different thing. they most likely wont care because is not their problem.
Right. Reforms do not seek to change the underlying issues that are causing the problems they are simply diversions.

Besides, the period of major reform is pretty much over for the developed nations. As reforms become increasingly untenable, one can only imagine that the capitalist class will only start cracking down as part of an overall reaction. We're seeing that occur today as we speak.

[Question everything]

after a revolution the gouvernement is very in touch with the people, then they hand out reforms like candy, but in capitalism it doesn't take long for the country to fall back into the Oligarichic system, reforms is a diversion to pacify us, to make the workers happy and often the gouvernement takes credit for them, or makes it look like they have changed since then (civil rights movement)...

[WP_Joel]

The fight for immediate demands (reforms) is necessary in creating a revolution. However those immediate demands do not extend beyond the boundries of capitalism and therefore agitation is needed to link those immediate demands with the overall picture of overthrowing the bourgeoisie and for those demands to adapt to the struggle ahead.