Scandinavia

[DiggerII]

I've heard loads of different opinions on whether or not Scandinavian countries like Norway and such are socialist. I'm curious to hear some thoughts.

[cenv]

Definitely not socialist in the Marxist sense of the word. That much isn't even debatable. It's fact.

Scandanavian countries have, without exception, highly capitalistic systems with a tiny layer of "socialistic" features such as public health care. They include within them all the exploitation inherent to capitalism.

[DiggerII]

(to play devil's advocate) countries like Norway do have a heavy graduated income tax which Marx and Engels called for in the Manifesto, and pretty much all of that tax money is spent on the people making poverty rates low and quality of life pretty darn good. so where does such exploitation come in? Again, just playing devil's advocate.

[Janus]

Sweden and some of the other Scandinavian countries are good examples of democratic socialism in which progressive reforms are pursued by the government as well as nationalization of industries and the development of social services.

[DiggerII]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 05:26 am
Sweden and some of the other Scandinavian countries are good examples of democratic socialism in which progressive reforms are pursued by the government as well as nationalization of industries and the development of social services.
janus, do you think they could lead to communism?

[Janus]

No, because the working class doesn't hold power. The ruling class is still made up of the bourgeois thus democratic socialism is simply a lighter form of capitalism.

[cenv]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 04:51 am
(to play devil's advocate) countries like Norway do have a heavy graduated income tax which Marx and Engels called for in the Manifesto, and pretty much all of that tax money is spent on the people making poverty rates low and quality of life pretty darn good. so where does such exploitation come in? Again, just playing devil's advocate.
Hmm. Well, if you want to turn this into a debate, perhaps you'd care to remind me who owns the means of production? Who controls society? ;)

[DiggerII]

i'm simply asking about the mentioned exploitation. granted that the means of production are privately owned, but there is a butt load of government intervention is all business in social democracies, so I'm just trying to grasp the fact that people are still exploited.

[Kia]

Doesn't Norway have one of the highest GDPs in the world? Interesting what can be done with socialist democracy.
Luxembourg is counted as a Scandinavian country? If so they'd be a great example of why communism cant happen. They are a very well of society but from what I know most of the power and control really lies in families that have influence in the political system. Also supposedly they have an 80% or higher population of roman catholics which would most likely be against any form of communism.

[DiggerII]

highest in the world? i think that might be pushing it. Tell me if you think otherwise though.

[Janus]

so I'm just trying to grasp the fact that people are still exploited.
Even workers in a nationalized industry are being exploited; it's just that they are being exploited by the state itself thus making it no different from an ordinary corporation.


Doesn't Norway have one of the highest GDPs in the world?
It has one of the highest GDP per capita in the world.

[RGacky3]

They are what I would call Social-Democrat or Walfare Capitalist. Basically Capitalism with a somewhat Socialist Concience.

These systems generally fail (as they are all over europe), because a Capitalist nation with a concience cannot compete with Capitalist nations without one, they start loosing jobs, loosing investment, people don't put money in those places, jobs move, government goes into debt, and generally it reverts back to non Social-Democrat Capitalism.

Being half Norwegian and having a norwegian Citizenship really helps me though :D, free healthcare, free education, and good Social Security, also Unions are very Strong there, but I don't know how long Oil (and too a lesser extent Fish) Money can sustain that, or how long the Capitalist class will let it go on (I fear Norway might go the way of most of the rest of Europe).

I actually think Social-Democrat and Walfare Capitalist systems hurt the Socialist movement because it tries to make people comfortable under Capitalism, making them less likely to rebel.

In europe there was a big Anarchist/Socialist movement, and the Social-Democrat movement really hurt that, but now that the Social-Democracies are kind of being undone the Anarchist/Socialist movement is comming back.

America experimental here and there with Social Democracy especially with FDR, but it never really caught on, here what hurt the Anarchist/Socialist movment the most was probably the Cold war, but like Europe its slowly comming back.

[norwegian commie]

I love in Norway and i dont feel i live in a socialist society. The welfare is good and all, but there are so many other sides of a society. Racism forishes, sexual haracment is up the roof. And unemployment is somewhat high, atleast at the minorities.

Anyways, Norway has Capitalism. No doubt. It is a market driven economy.
Lots of years agou the social-democrats thougt of instating a planned economy but they decided not to.

We are best friends eith the US, boicott palestine. And on the next election some extreme rightist motherfuckers will win. Called the progress party. They will lower taxes for the rich but some for the poor. Lower the cost of alcohol, and on and on like the rightists like to do. They alsoe want to remove the right to vite if you are a criminal.

So, i our current goverment there are socialists, yes. But they are in minority. I think about 15 representatives out of 189 total, or 87 on the left. We need a revolution here too guys. And there are classes, sadly the poor votes for the progress party (wich is a bullshit name as they want to reinstate the system as it was in early 1900 with 1% tax. There are lots of poor and homeless.

In norway when the commuists got larger they practicaly removed their rights. Thay got no jobs, atleast no high positoned jobs. They were constantly envestigated. Socialist thing to do? I think not.

However it is a nicer system than many, true. But not socialist.



They are what I would call Social-Democrat or Walfare Capitalist. Basically Capitalism with a somewhat Socialist Concience.

Belive me there are ruthless capitalists here to!


I actually think Social-Democrat and Walfare Capitalist systems hurt the Socialist movement because it tries to make people comfortable under Capitalism, making them less likely to rebel.

True, that is a problem.

[LuXe]

Norway definetly is capitalist for sure.

Fremskrittspartiet, (The Progress-party) as NC called it, has gained some votes, and will probably win this next election. They are a bunch of racist dicks with extreme prejudice against anything non-norwegian. They belive more orisons is the only way to solve drime, and they therefore also increase police fundings. The rich gain greatly from their politics.

RV Rød Valgallianse (Red ellectional-alliance) is a small communist party. These old men only get like 2-3% of the votes though.

Our prime minister right now is from Arbeiderpartiet. (The workers party) They are at least better then most the rightists we have, even though I disagree with them.

Norway is a nice country to live in, if you stay away from the bottom-level of society.

I am currently seking entry in a "junior high-school" (Dunno what they are called outside the USA) at Akademiet, (Media and communication) because I want to become a journalist, and to write articles so I can influence many people with this.