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View Full Version : what is the scientific method? - The historical approach



peaccenicked
9th March 2002, 13:06
Firstly from N. Bukharin.
"2. The Theory of Historical Materialism
The laws of materialist dialectic are all-embracing, general laws of becoming. As we have seen, a deep and all-embracing historicism is at their basis, that is to say, a historicism which can embrace all forms of movement. This Marxist dialectical method is much wider and more universal than the idealist dialectic of Hegel, the limitation of which does not merely lie in exalting a limited sphere of consciousness. into the substance of the universal. The limitation of the Hegelian dialectic also lies in its two most important qualities. Firstly, with Hegel nature has no history.1) Secondly, history itself settles down with the bourgeois landlord state (here Hegel's system in fact conflicts with his method). Both these limitations, which are of quite exceptional importance, are undoubtedly connected with the idealist character of Hegelian dialectic. Hence, by the way, the unsurpassably wretched poverty of those "thinkers" ("manufacturers of ideology", as Marx called them), who suggest that the difference between the Marxian and Hegelian dialectic is simply a matter of a change of label and that in fact Marx remained a Hegelian to the end of his life.2) Whereas Marxian dialectic as a doctrine of historical development was the first to conquer the whole sphere of nature comprehended from the point of view of an historical process, and broke those fetters which Hegel put upon the understanding of social development. This remarkable expansion of outlook proceeds entirely from Marx, a thing which bourgeois investigators cannot understand. Even very recently this sort of gap between nature and society played, and still plays to this day, a very important part. The whole conception of the Rickert school proceeds from the historical character of society and the unhistorical character of nature. The whole laborious differentiation between the generalising method of the natural sciences and the individualising method of the social sciences, between nomothetics (or nomology), on the one hand, and ideography on the other, between "natural laws" and "reference to worth" is founded in the last resort on the absolute rupture between society and nature. This is, in essence, a softened and refined theology, converting human society into a super-natural quantity. Whereas society and nature are a unity, but a contradictory unity. Society itself is a product of the,historical development of nature, but a product which relatively is in opposition to nature, reacts upon it and even in the process of historical development transforms external nature itself into its product (the so-called cultivated landscape). Therefore Marx said that in fact there is one science, the science of history, which embraces both the history of the inorganic world, and the history of the organic world and the history of society.3) In the sphere of the natural sciences this meant a decisive break with mechanistic-mathematical rationalism which in Marx is bound up with the criticism of mechanistic materialism."

Hence the scientific method does not limit itself to a historical formal logic, but applies dialectical logic. ie
A mathematical formula can be understood one sidedly
as an immediate product of logic or it can be understood dialecticaly as a product of history.
A dialectitian might ask why does this formula appear at this moment in time , does it correspond to other developments in other spheres. Whereas the formalist
has no need to go beyond immediate sense data.
Hence the dialetical method covers the history of the development of each process. These processes are governed by laws of movement, negation of negation,
quantity to quality, as listed by Lenin in his Philosophical notebooks on Hegel. These Laws are axiomatic, the axioms can be refined, hence they are not dogmatic.
Hence the method is the study of the self movement of an entitity.
Essentialism says that entity is knowable although not absolutely.
Where as atomism leaves history and reality as an infinite uncorrelatable determinants, ie chaos.


(Edited by peaccenicked at 2:10 pm on Mar. 9, 2002)


(Edited by peaccenicked at 3:26 pm on Mar. 9, 2002)

El Che
9th March 2002, 13:21
Peace would you say that the way something is understood defines its method?

peaccenicked
9th March 2002, 13:40
No, things can be understood intuitively and method can be unconsciously applied. A pariticular understanding itself can only be understood historically ie by placing it in an historical context.

(Edited by peaccenicked at 2:42 pm on Mar. 9, 2002)

El Che
9th March 2002, 13:56
But does this understanding affect the method its self?

peaccenicked
9th March 2002, 14:16
It does not effect the nature of the method
as such.
If you intuitively arrive at a correct conclusion, it must be shown be part of an historical process.
Or it will appear detached from reality.
An unconscious use of a method, does not effect method
for the conscious use of the method would come to the same conclusions, if they are correct, or relatively more correct than what is previously known.

El Che
9th March 2002, 15:32
I agree. But i would say that history is not a factor in scientific method. Would you agree with such a statement?

peaccenicked
9th March 2002, 17:40
no. The scientific method as opposed to formalism
is the historical determination of the nature of a process,
its characteristics and the expression of this thereof.

Rosa
9th March 2002, 20:53
Continuation of disscussion with Dermy in "Are Capis BORG"
I said: "...but call dialectic "objective methodology"?Are you sure?Reconsidered Spinoza's "Ethics" and others?(in fact, no others, just having Spinoza on my mind). And what about Heidegger actually saying that objective lies on strong subjective?
Is the reality only unification of the opposites?What about similar ones? Do you think that they are "unification", or...I understand that you can explain, describe the non-radicals (and they are majority!) using radicals as heuristic instrument,but can that be objective methodology when you can grade the presence of "existing appearances" using Spinoza's methodology?. "

Dermy said that i shouldn’t beleive everything i read…well that was my point!
About my "misunderstanding of your views": i think that what we have here is misunderstanding in matter that we’re trying to resolve: what exactly is purpose of your “objective methodology”?
For me, objective methodology should be an instrument for gaining an objective cognition of the world’s appearances.and using objective methodology, we can separate existing appearances from ones which are just mixture of many other “appearances alone” is this correct? Can you say that some people are nazis, and some are not, when there are people who would kill the jews by their own hand, people who would like someone other to do it for them, people who don’t mind the jews as long they don’t live in their neighbourghood, people who don’t mind them living in the neighbourghood but would not have them for friends, the people who wouldn’t marry the jews, people who would merry the jews? So, answer to me: who of all these people is not a nazi? Suppose that you’ll say “the ones who would merry the jews”,but that’s your subjective judgement. Some skinhead would say “ a person who wouldn’t kill the jews”. But if we want to consider objective atributes of appearances, all we can say that So, nazism is 1 essence which occupies apearances more or less.
BUT, i assume that you want to build methodology for cognition of historical appearances. Like:1) no ratio-2)a little bit of ratio-3)more ratio-4)totally rationalized society-5)a bit of irrationalism-6)totally irationalism …and IN THE SAME TIME: 1A)minimalism in art-2A)more details-3A)more details-4A)baroque-5A)less details-6A)abstract/minimalism--- 1B)woman equal rights as a man 2B)woman less rights than a men (people settled at 1 place, warriors defending teritory become more important) 3B)woman has no rights 4B)woman gains some rights 5B) woman has equal rights like a man… Than match 4) with per ex.3)A and per ex.6B), and you’ll get a conjucture of a precise time . why do you think that spinoza’s hints about nature of existing appearances are a good start-points for developing that instrument? You’re talking about Hegemony and Borg-mind-set, but i can’t find relation betw Spinoza’s and that.
Hegelian dialectic can be the way the essences are spreading apart, and if Borgian mindset is dominant now, and you're’spreading a different one-what’s the problem? Difficulties bcs powerful BORG is making too much obstacles? But what’s that got to do with objective methodology?Were you talking about “metodology of action?” …and found an “objective” one? about heart of the matter: isn’t that something only speculative thinking can reach? And are you trying to develop methodology for that speculative thinking? If you do, then you’re trying to construct logic…
I think that we should clear the nature of methodology we're talking about.

El Che
9th March 2002, 23:18
[/i]"no. The scientific method as opposed to formalism
is the historical determination of the nature of a process,
its characteristics and the expression of this thereof."[/i]

But math is also a science and so is umm phisics. What you say aplies to biology, but how does it aply to these scientific methods?

peaccenicked
9th March 2002, 23:56
El che, in short the answer is yes
A treatment of this can be found here
http://www.dcu.ie/~comms/hsheehan/mxphsc.htm
Rosa I will let dermy speak for himself.
According to Hegel. A speculative truth can transcend the subject object relationship as long as it is not one sided but all sided. Hence it becomes purely objective
and independent of subject.
(however this pressupposes human existence)

vox
10th March 2002, 06:52
"Whereas Marxian dialectic as a doctrine of historical development was the first to conquer the whole sphere of nature comprehended from the point of view of an historical process, and broke those fetters which Hegel put upon the understanding of social development."

I find this a bit troubling, myself. I think you can find this same critique in Against Nature by Steven Vogel, and I think he contradicts Lukacs (see Feenberg, Rethinking Marxism, 11/4.)

Of course, I may be wrong. Still, I fear that Nature is here presented as outside the human sphere, as an object of alienation rather than construction, and that it is, in this way possibly being reified.

But that's just me.

vox

peaccenicked
10th March 2002, 18:51
The contadictory nature of the union of human and natural spheres, is not determined here but in a reading of Marx, it can be concluded, that alienated and constructed nature are themselves in movement from one to the other. Religion is a product of the alienated form, from times when nature enslaved man.
Science arises as a product of man's ability to enslave,
or master nature for his own purposes.

vox
14th March 2002, 12:49
peacenicked,

I have absolutely no idea of what you just said. If you, or someone else, can distill your thoughts into traditional sentences I would appreciate it.

By the way, this is not an attack on you, this is simply an honest criticism.

vox