Religion

[analfilth]

For my religious studies class, I was told to ask a wide variety of people what they believe religion is. What is it's purpose? and Do good things happen due to religion
?

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

This is a famous Marx quote.


Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. [B]Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions[/B]. It is the opium of the people.

He is clearly saying, because the world cane be so awful to people, they choose religion to escape reality.


Do good things happen due to religion

Well not directly from religion. Religion on the whole, has had a bloody history.

However, some religious people have done great and kind things. This though is the question, have they done those things to get into heaven or because they want to end human suffering.

For example, a Lebanese group, called Hizbollah, who are a Muslim group, have fought of f an imperialist Israel, they have helped repair the damage inflicted on southern Lebanon, by building new homes etc. That's definitely something good from a organisation made up largely of religious members.

[RedKnight]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 12:00 pm
This is a famous Marx quote.


Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. [B]Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions[/B]. It is the opium of the people.

He is clearly saying, because the world cane be so awful to people, they choose religion to escape reality.


Do good things happen due to religion

Well not directly from religion. Religion on the whole, has had a bloody history.

However, some religious people have done great and kind things. This though is the question, have they done those things to get into heaven or because they want to end human suffering.

For example, a Lebanese group, called Hizbollah, who are a Muslim group, have fought of f an imperialist Israel, they have helped repair the damage inflicted on southern Lebanon, by building new homes etc. That's definitely something good from a organisation made up largely of religious members.
They also commit acts of terror as well. :angry:

[Fawkes]

This should be in Religion and Theology.

Historically, religion's main purpose was to explain to the people the unexplainable. An example: in Ancient Ireland, the Celts believed that a god by the name of Daghdha created many of the mounds found in that area and that they were doorways from the houes of the gods to earth. They believed that because they could not logically explain the existence of the mounds, so they came up with a way for them to have been formed.

[Eleutherios]

Religion is more than just a means to explain the unexplainable. It's true, ancient peoples did not understand the origins of life, the universe, the weather, fire, dreams, natural disasters, consciousness, diseases, and a host of other things, so they invented gods and spirits to explain them.

But religions have also been means by which powerful people retain their power. If somebody is in power, religious people reason, then God or the gods must have chosen him to be in power, and the person in power will often reiterate this idea. That way, fighting against the established powers seems like a fight against God or the gods themselves.

Of course, this kind of authority by divine fear is not limited to political leaders; clergymen and prophets throughout history have used the same tactic. "Believe what I believe, act as I tell you to act, or you are going against the will of God or the gods."

The Old Testament, as far as I can tell, is largely a rationalization by the political leaders of Israel, appealing to the mythical beliefs of their subjects, to justify their invasion of their Lebensraum and their genocides against the Untermenschen. And of course, the Qur'an was used by Muhammad to justify his military campaign to conquer Arabia.

Religions are based on tradition and authority; without tradition and authority, religions would crumble. Religions need the authority of parents and clergymen to instill these irrational traditions into supple young minds before they are capable of rationally thinking for themselves. By teaching children that faith is a virtue, that they should absolutely and unquestioningly believe tenets for which there is not the slightest shred of evidence, these children grow up gullible and obedient.

In this way, religions are the most successful mind viruses ever; they have a built-in way of reproducing by preying on the gullibility of prepubescent children, and act through social institutions which give them an aura of authority and legitimacy. They prey on our fears of being ostracized for rejecting established social traditions. But there is hope; as the world becomes more globalized and cultures begin to interact with one another more and more, children will increasingly become familiar with other irrational belief systems at younger and younger ages, and they are beginning to realize that they are all equally false. In fact, none of my peers really self-identifies as a member of a particular religion (or if they do, they don't actively practice the religion by praying, reading scripture, going to religious gatherings, etc.).

Do good things happen because of religion? Well, no, not really. Good things happen in spite of religion. We are moral beings because we evolved that way; we humans are social creatures and cooperative behavior is conducive to the survival of our genes. Some of these moral impulses have found their way into parts of religious dogma, it's true, but their ultimate origin is not in religion but in our intrinsic altruism; that's why Jews and Christians tend to follow that bit of the Bible that says not to kill people, but they reject that other part that says to kill people who work on the Sabbath. It is not because of their Bible that they don't typically engage in murder, but because they, like pretty much all other human beings, have an inborn desire to not kill people and also are fearful of the societal consequences of being a murderer.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

They also commit acts of terror as well. mad.gif

lol when?

Hezbollah condemned the 9/11 attacks on the WTC. because it was a civilian building.

really great terrorist attitude there.

[grove street]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 09:15 pm


And of course, the Qur'an was used by Muhammad to justify his military campaign to conquer Arabia.


True, but Arabia before Muhammad took over was ruled by money hungry tribal leaders that exploited the poor. Muhammad overthrow the old tribal leaders in the name of the poor as well as God. Even though he ruled over all of Arabia, he lived a very modest live almost on the brink of poverty, because all the loot that he took during battle was given to the poor.

Muhammad good eaisly be desrcibed as an Arab version of Robin Hood.

[analfilth]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 08:34 pm
This should be in Religion and Theology.

Ahh yes sorry, my bad.

Would you agree that Religion is the response some humyn beings have to the humyn condition when faced with the difficulties of living in the world? They develop an understanding of the universe and their existence, so that life takes on purpose and significance?

[Eleutherios]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 05:28 am
Would you agree that Religion is the response some humyn beings have to the humyn condition when faced with the difficulties of living in the world? They develop an understanding of the universe and their existence, so that life takes on purpose and significance?
It is true that a lot of people use religion as a crutch for dealing with the emotional stress of daily life. And it is also true that a lot of people use religion as a way of putting themselves or their tribe or their species at the center of the universe, because they feel more comfortable believing that they aren't just atoms moving around in the fabric of space-time. I would have to disagree with them, because I believe I lead a more fulfilling life when I am free to define the purpose of my own existence instead of having one pre-defined for me by some cosmic dictator.

However, I think religion is more of a social phenomenon than an individual intellectual exercise in the absurd. Religions are collections of memes that have evolved to become extremely efficient at propagating themselves, in the same way that organisms are collections of genes that have evolved to become extremely effective at propagating themselves. Whether or not a person is religious, and what religion they identify with, is in the vast majority of cases dependent on their parents' religious views and the religious views of their peers, rather than on whether they have dealt with a lot of suffering or a lingering sense of purposelessness.

[C_Rasmussen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 05:34 am
For my religious studies class, I was told to ask a wide variety of people what they believe religion is. What is it's purpose? and Do good things happen due to religion
?
Religion = a good thing taken too far by weakminded individuals.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by C_Rasmussen+February 06, 2007 06:51 pm--> (C_Rasmussen @ February 06, 2007 06:51 pm)
[email protected] 05, 2007 05:34 am
For my religious studies class, I was told to ask a wide variety of people what they believe religion is. What is it's purpose? and Do good things happen due to religion
?
Religion = a good thing taken too far by weakminded individuals. [/b]
I'd like you to back up your assertion that believing an obvious falsehood is a "good thing".

[C_Rasmussen]

Originally posted by Jazzratt+February 06, 2007 12:53 pm--> (Jazzratt @ February 06, 2007 12:53 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 06:51 pm

[email protected] 05, 2007 05:34 am
For my religious studies class, I was told to ask a wide variety of people what they believe religion is. What is it's purpose? and Do good things happen due to religion
?
Religion = a good thing taken too far by weakminded individuals.
I'd like you to back up your assertion that believing an obvious falsehood is a "good thing". [/b]
Oh for fuck sake, does everything have to be so fuckin anal retentive? <_<

*looks at site name again*

Oh right........I forgot...anyway

It was meant as being of comfort for people or for some, something to believe in but was fucked up by fundies.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by C_Rasmussen+February 06, 2007 06:56 pm--> (C_Rasmussen @ February 06, 2007 06:56 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 12:53 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 06:51 pm

[email protected] 05, 2007 05:34 am
For my religious studies class, I was told to ask a wide variety of people what they believe religion is. What is it&#39;s purpose? and Do good things happen due to religion
?
Religion = a good thing taken too far by weakminded individuals.
I&#39;d like you to back up your assertion that believing an obvious falsehood is a "good thing".
Oh for fuck sake, does everything have to be so fuckin anal retentive? <_< [/b]
What the fuck is wrong with you? I was mearly asking you to provide some kind of backing for your claim. YOu are debating in a fucking theology forum after all.


*looks at site name again*

Oh right........I forgot...anyway

It was meant as being of comfort for people or for some, something to believe in but was fucked up by fundies. So you would argue that because it is a comfortable lie it is a good lie? No hope is better than a flase hope, it lays no idiotic expectations at people&#39;s feet.

[C_Rasmussen]

What the fuck is wrong with you?

I have a tendency to overreact, and let my speaking get ahead of my thinking. Something I realize that I have to work on.



I was mearly asking you to provide some kind of backing for your claim. YOu are debating in a fucking theology forum after all.

Yeah true.

@ Bold&#39;d: I &#39;spose, its just I dun post here much and sometimes tend to forget.


So you would argue that because it is a comfortable lie it is a good lie? No hope is better than a flase hope, it lays no idiotic expectations at people&#39;s feet.

If it makes them feel comfortable who cares. For them I guess, its better to believe in something and not be there then to not believe in something and it be there.

[Eleutherios]

So if my doctor finds out I have a terminal disease that will kill me in less than year, and he tells me I don&#39;t have it because it&#39;s more comfortable for me to believe that, that would be okay?

[Democratic Socialist]

Originally posted by RedKnight+February 05, 2007 08:24 pm--> (RedKnight @ February 05, 2007 08:24 pm)
[email protected] 05, 2007 12:00 pm
This is a famous Marx quote.


Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. &#91;B&#93;Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions&#91;/B&#93;. It is the opium of the people.

He is clearly saying, because the world cane be so awful to people, they choose religion to escape reality.


Do good things happen due to religion

Well not directly from religion. Religion on the whole, has had a bloody history.

However, some religious people have done great and kind things. This though is the question, have they done those things to get into heaven or because they want to end human suffering.

For example, a Lebanese group, called Hizbollah, who are a Muslim group, have fought of f an imperialist Israel, they have helped repair the damage inflicted on southern Lebanon, by building new homes etc. That&#39;s definitely something good from a organisation made up largely of religious members.
They also commit acts of terror as well. :angry: [/b]
Your boy Mao, Stalin, and Castro have all done the same in the name of their ideology.

The fact is religion is like any belief system; if perverted, it is dangerous. Marx&#39;s quote reflects immense ignorance because many "communist" countries have adopted his philosophy as a pseudo-religion and have done horrible things in its name.

[grove street]

Originally posted by Democratic Socialist+February 06, 2007 10:14 pm--> (Democratic Socialist @ February 06, 2007 10:14 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 08:24 pm

[email protected] 05, 2007 12:00 pm
This is a famous Marx quote.


Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. &#91;B&#93;Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions&#91;/B&#93;. It is the opium of the people.

He is clearly saying, because the world cane be so awful to people, they choose religion to escape reality.


Do good things happen due to religion

Well not directly from religion. Religion on the whole, has had a bloody history.

However, some religious people have done great and kind things. This though is the question, have they done those things to get into heaven or because they want to end human suffering.

For example, a Lebanese group, called Hizbollah, who are a Muslim group, have fought of f an imperialist Israel, they have helped repair the damage inflicted on southern Lebanon, by building new homes etc. That&#39;s definitely something good from a organisation made up largely of religious members.
They also commit acts of terror as well. :angry:
Your boy Mao, Stalin, and Castro have all done the same in the name of their ideology.

The fact is religion is like any belief system; if perverted, it is dangerous. Marx&#39;s quote reflects immense ignorance because many "communist" countries have adopted his philosophy as a pseudo-religion and have done horrible things in its name. [/b]
First of all religion was never banned in the USSR not even under Stalin. People have the belief that religion was banned in the USSR because of destruction of Russian Orhtodox property, land and the redistribution of wealth once owned by the Russian Orhtodox Church. This was done not out of banning religion, but because the Russian Orhtodox Church supported the Tzar and exploited the poor.

The USSR ended the persecution of Protestants, Jews and Muslims in Russia and through-out the Soviet Union.

[Democratic Socialist]

No, my point was not that religion was banned (although I have my own views about that, especially in Mao&#39;s China) but rather that the communist ideology takes on a religious form of its own. Attrocities are committed in the name of socialism and communism daily, just as they are in the name of Christianity and Islam.

However, you all dismiss these by saying "Stalin wasn&#39;t a real communist" or "Mao wasn&#39;t following true communism." Well, neither are the Christian extremists.

Anything can be used for evil when man takes it to an extreme.

[ComradeR]

but rather that the communist ideology takes on a religious form of its own. Attrocities are committed in the name of socialism and communism daily, just as they are in the name of Christianity and Islam.
If you use reasoning like that then all political and economic ideologies are religious.

[Democratic Socialist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 08:59 am

but rather that the communist ideology takes on a religious form of its own. Attrocities are committed in the name of socialism and communism daily, just as they are in the name of Christianity and Islam.
If you use reasoning like that then all political and economic ideologies are religious.
No, all religions, economic theories, and political ideologies can be made dogmatic and antagonistic by extremists. It occurs in every major belief system the free world has ever seen. To hoist the crimes of extremists in Christianity, Islam, communism, socialism, or any ideology is fallacious.

[Pawn Power]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 06:34 am
For my religious studies class, I was told to ask a wide variety of people
We are not exactly a wide variety of people. :lol:

[Democratic Socialist]

This is true. I would not look for an unbiased cross section of the public&#39;s opinion on religion at a predominantly Marxist forum. You might instead try Political Crossfire if you&#39;re looking for an internet-based solution.

[LSD]

People have the right to believe whatever they want, but there really can be no doubt that as a political force, relgion has done more harm than good.

For each "faith based" charity programs you can name, there are hundred religious groups lobbying against gay rights or against reproductive rights or against medical advances or whatever progressive issue contravenes their "letter from God".

There can be no doubt that there are wonderful religious people out there, but it&#39;s disengenuous to imagine that their charity or kindness stems from their religion.

The United States is probably the most religious country in the first world, certainly it&#39;s far more religious than it&#39;s European counterparts. And yet the United States has a much higher crime rate and a much lower level of social support.

So if there is a relationship between religion and safety, it definitely isn&#39;t a positive one.

Personally, I don&#39;t think society is so reductable as all that. Plus it&#39;s incredibly postmodern to declare that intangibles like "belief" or "religion" are the dominant force in shaping societal relations.

European countries aren&#39;t safer than African ones because of "religion", they&#39;re safer because of money and because of extensive histories of social welfare programs.

Religious apologists like to make a big deal about how much more "moral" they are than everyone else, but that&#39;s PR, nothing more. The reality is that religious people are capable of incredible kindness and horrible atrocity ...just like everybody else.

***

But that&#39;s not to say that religion doesn&#39;t have a social effect. Unfortunately, religion can actually be quite potent.

You see what religion does is stultify values; because of its fundamental claim of "divine inspiration", it can&#39;t change its ideas to match the times. And because it relies implicitly on "faith", it&#39;s followers are doctrinaly forbidden from looking beyond the confines of reactionary dogma.

And so while people have every right to believe in invisible fairies if they want, once they start trying to impose those fairies&#39; "values" onto the rest of, we all suffer.

And, besides, religion comes in many forms, not all of them immediately apparent.

The USSR attempted to replace traditional Russian orthdox Christianity with a Stalinist cult of personality. And although the latter was nominally secular, it had a markedly similar social function as religion.

You see the problem with religion isn&#39;t the specifics, it&#39;s the paradigm that underlies it. So, for instance, changing the details (e.g., swaping "God" for "the party") doesn&#39;t do anything to address the real issue, that of "faith" and the suppression of social progress.

As revolutionaries our focus can&#39;t be what we&#39;re "abolishing", it must be what we&#39;re creating. And while that must be a secular and rational society, it must also be a free and equal one.

Ultimately, it&#39;s those last two that are the most important.

[Democratic Socialist]

Well put, LSD. Very well put. Although I would argue that many people&#39;s faith is the driving force for their charity and goodwill.

[analfilth]

Originally posted by Pawn Power+February 08, 2007 10:36 pm--> (Pawn Power @ February 08, 2007 10:36 pm)
[email protected] 05, 2007 06:34 am
For my religious studies class, I was told to ask a wide variety of people
We are not exactly a wide variety of people. :lol: [/b]
hence the reason why i have in fact asked a lot of other people too, both young and old, religious and non religious, etc.