Role of Capitalism in Africa

[( R )evolution]

Hey guys, I was wondering if it is necerasily bad to allow capitalist empire's like America to industrial and fund African countries. I know that it is bad if they use them as an outpost for there imperalism but is it worth it in the long run to have indusrtialzed African nations rather than shit holes.

[La Comédie Noire]

While I hate Imperialism, These countries need modernization. If they had an agrarian base or some other means of making their own surplus I'd be against it, but they are really up shit creek without a paddle.

Not to mention Aids. :o

I believe the Americans are making China open up markets for them. Or is it of the Chinese's own accord?

[Hiero]

The imperialists undermine modernisation. The imperialists are in Africa today and they still undermine modernisation. They invest in useless industries only to serve a foreign market. Alot of the countries in Africa are under developed because investments follow the world market. The imperialist have been in Africa a long time, they could be there for another 100 years, and make trillions of dollars and the African proleteriat and peasants would probally see very little real industrialisation. You mention in the long run, well this is in the long run, a very long run of imperialism.

It's not like they are going to invest in house material industries or industrialise argiculture for the hell of it. Imperialist intvestments are not unlimited, they are limited to imperialist needs. It's no good for the poor nations if investment comes in the form of toy making machines. You can't convert these machines to make houses or medical machines.

Only through socialist planing, and limited national bourgeois activity for a set time can a nation become industrialised. This is the model that the Soviets followed. They did not rely on imperialist intervention and Africa can do the same thing.

We have to think about interests of class and how they clash. The bourgioes want whatever the market want, so if the market wants diamonds, they invest in Seira Sierra leone. However the proletariat in Seira Leone actually want industrialised agriculture, they want more industry to make homes in Seira Leone. The imperialist bourgeois are useless for modernisation.

[Tekun]

Foreign funding by way of the IMF or the World Bank actually makes Africa a more backwards continent
These two organisations suck the life out of any sort of industrialization or modernisation

[Hiero]

You should check out the books and articles by many of the African socialists. They usually have figues of how much is invested in African countries, how much profit is made and how little ends up back in the country.

[Enragé]

I agree with most of what Hiero said, especially about the whole "do what the soviets did"-thing.

The ideal situation would be revolutions breaking out in western countries, who would then help the underdeveloped nations to industrialise. Kind of like how lenin counted on a german revolution for the succes of the russian one.

another way might be anti-imperialist tendencies coming forward in the way of social democratic parties gaining power, and then concentrating more on the own population, still keeping the free market to a great extent but nationalising certain key industries. Kind of like what the soviets did, but without the purges and gulags.
I just doubt if thats viable in the world we live in today, because of the power of the world market (which basicly goes, give your workers decent pay and decent rights, and the capital goes to...china, or india, or whatever)

[Qwerty Dvorak]

I think capitalism still has an important role to play in the development of Africa, and its preparation for a Socialist revolution. Capitalism has shown itself throughout history to be the best way of developing a nation's industry, the exception to the rule being Stalin's Russia, which subjected the people to more hardship than has ever been seen in a capitalist system. Of course the imperialists today are doing very little good for Africa, and I believe that if any real progress is to be made we as conscious first-world citizens must place responsible treatment of third world nations amongst our top priorities, and campaign for this at every opportunity. Hopefully China's entrance to the market in Africa will give the nations there a few more options, and create a more competitive climate in the third world, where African nations can afford to play the imperialists off one another in order to maximize their gain.

[Janus]

I believe the Americans are making China open up markets for them.
The US isn't making China do anything in Africa especially anything economically.


Or is it of the Chinese's own accord?
Yes, China seeks to develop her economy by seeking markets in Africa.

[manic expression]

Capitalism's role in Africa has been, to me, that of the rapist. Capitalism took unending amounts of natural resources and wealth from the continent, put into motion many conflicts and problems and undermined many cultures and peoples in favor of exploitation.

In some areas, you see "modernisation", but this basically means people become eager consumers, ready to buy the newest American fad. Infrastructure and technology has been improved in some cases, but at what cost? The Romans may have brought better irrigation to the Gauls, but they still ravaged them and effectively destroyed their culture.

I would like to know what others think about the situation in the bigger picture.

[( R )evolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 11:18 am
The imperialists undermine modernisation. The imperialists are in Africa today and they still undermine modernisation. They invest in useless industries only to serve a foreign market. Alot of the countries in Africa are under developed because investments follow the world market. The imperialist have been in Africa a long time, they could be there for another 100 years, and make trillions of dollars and the African proleteriat and peasants would probally see very little real industrialisation. You mention in the long run, well this is in the long run, a very long run of imperialism.

It's not like they are going to invest in house material industries or industrialise argiculture for the hell of it. Imperialist intvestments are not unlimited, they are limited to imperialist needs. It's no good for the poor nations if investment comes in the form of toy making machines. You can't convert these machines to make houses or medical machines.

Only through socialist planing, and limited national bourgeois activity for a set time can a nation become industrialised. This is the model that the Soviets followed. They did not rely on imperialist intervention and Africa can do the same thing.

We have to think about interests of class and how they clash. The bourgioes want whatever the market want, so if the market wants diamonds, they invest in Seira Sierra leone. However the proletariat in Seira Leone actually want industrialised agriculture, they want more industry to make homes in Seira Leone. The imperialist bourgeois are useless for modernisation.
How would you propose to make the direct jump into industrialization if the
continent cannot even feed itself, being that the majority of the fertile lands
are being used for cash crop production?

- How will critical improvements in infrastructure be financed? For example,
Africa does not refine it’s own oil and has not been able to tap into it’s
vast hydroelectric potential.

- Where will the educated workers come from?

- How will you address the massive shortage of medical care plaguing the
continent?


These are some of the questions I am wondering.

[Janus]

How will critical improvements in infrastructure be financed? For example,
Africa does not refine it’s own oil and has not been able to tap into it’s
vast hydroelectric potential.
Many African countries have resources but lack the expertise or are simply inable to develop them.


Where will the educated workers come from?
Currently, there is a major trend towards brain drain in Africa. The first priority would be to stop that.


How will you address the massive shortage of medical care plaguing the
continent?
Develop internal medical care while at the same time dealing with foreign nations in order to get the necessary supplies.

[Severian]

Originally posted by ( R )[email protected] 04, 2007 09:50 pm
Hey guys, I was wondering if it is necerasily bad to allow capitalist empire's like America to industrial and fund African countries.
Well, are they industrializing African countries?

Apparently not, or Africa wouldn't be the least developed continent. All of Africa has been under colonial rule at one time or another - they had their chance to industrialize it if they were going to. Also, they've had a lot of influence over a lot of the post-independence governments - those were often independent in name alone.

Heck, back in the 18th or 19th century colonialism sometimes did help capitalist development of some places - arguably India, for example - but apparently not Africa. In the 20th century and today, it's much less likely that imperialism will play some net positive role in promoting development.

Generally the countries with the most independent economic policies develop more. Even a country like south Korea, sometimes held up as an "open market" success, actually followed a nationalist "developmental state" approach with state coordination of the few giant corporations, and keeping out U.S. and other imports.

The advanced capitalist countries have greatly set back Africa's development. Beginning with the slave trade, which removed a lot of productive workers from Africa and fueled incredibly destructive wars.

Colonialism furthered this - Africa was a source of raw materials and market for manufactured goods. This made it harder for Africa to develop its own industries - to do that it woulda been necessary to protect those industries from competition from European imported manufactured goods.

I recommend How Europe Underdeveloped Africa (http://www.marxists.org/subject/africa/rodney-walter/how-europe/index.htm) by Walter Rodney for a historic look at this.

Today? The imperialists drain huge wealth out of Africa by means of its huge debts and interest payments. Their aid only perpetuates its underdevelopment - for example, by shipping grain as aid they drive African farmers out of business ("the first hit's free".)

Some things they do may accelerate the development of Africa, and the growth of a modern working class there. In those cases, good. Communist internationalists shouldn't join the "anti-globalization" economic nationalists and the "anti-sweatshop" people who pretend they oppose building factories in Africa - for the African's own good!

But the net effect of imperialist involvement - including aid - in Africa - is to perpetuate its economic dependence on the imperialist countries. That shouldn't be surprising - anything else would be contrary to their interests.

[( R )evolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 04:16 am

How will critical improvements in infrastructure be financed? For example,
Africa does not refine it’s own oil and has not been able to tap into it’s
vast hydroelectric potential.
Many African countries have resources but lack the expertise or are simply inable to develop them.


Where will the educated workers come from?
Currently, there is a major trend towards brain drain in Africa. The first priority would be to stop that.


How will you address the massive shortage of medical care plaguing the
continent?
Develop internal medical care while at the same time dealing with foreign nations in order to get the necessary supplies.
I hate to play the devils adovacte but how would you stop the brain drain in Africa? What things would you do to combat this? How should we help the Africans develop these industries. How should you develop medical care if they don't have the expertise or intelligence to do it? The foreign powers can ship supplies but who will administer the medicine?

[( R )evolution]

anyone? Also when I get into arguemnt with cappies I always get the same "I know there was never true communism societies but this is because communism donest work." What is a good educated response to this? I have tried to explain things about the revolution and how russia wasnt industrialized but they still dont understand

[Severian]

Originally posted by ( R )[email protected] 12, 2007 11:48 pm
How should you develop medical care if they don't have the expertise or intelligence to do it? The foreign powers can ship supplies but who will administer the medicine?
Well, the imperialists aren't much interested in solving this problem either, are they? In fact, they're the biggest destination for the "brain drain" of African professionals leaving. Sometimes they actively recruit.

I think the Cuban example gives some idea what can be done. Cuba sends doctors to work free in Africa - more than the World Health Organization does - and they're known for dealing with people as equals and being willing to work in difficult conditions.

Cuba's also trained a lot of African students in Cuban medical schools, and helped set up medical schools in several African countries. The U.S. response to this, BTW, is to actively work to accelerate the "brain drain" by encouraging Cuban doctors working in other countries to defect. source (http://www.coha.org/2006/10/30/cuban-medical-diplomacy-when-the-left-has-got-it-right/)

A revolutionary government in a larger and richer country could do much more.

Part of how Cuba combats the loss of professionals: from the beginning, they emphasize values of social solidarity in their educational system - the purpose of getting an education is not just to make money. Also, they have a rule prohibiting doctors from immediately leaving the country after getting their free medical education.

What could African governments do? Well, for one thing, accept aid that makes them stronger and less dependent but reject aid that makes them more dependent - as Thomas Sankara put it "The only aid we favor is that which puts an end to the need for more aid." He was president of Burkina Faso for a few years in the 80s, and set an example that's worth studying.

Adopt trade policies that encourage and protect national industrial development. Help create farm and other cooperatives. Work out regional cooperation and trade agreements among African countries. Try to build an alliance of Third World countries to collectively repudiate their immoral and unpayable debt to the imperialist banks.

For a start.

[Janus]

I hate to play the devils adovacte but how would you stop the brain drain in Africa?
By creating opportunities for people in their native country.


What things would you do to combat this? How should we help the Africans develop these industries.
Who is "we"? The Western nations have done enough damage. Except for maybe sending in technical expertise, they should probably just lay off.


How should you develop medical care if they don't have the expertise or intelligence to do it? The foreign powers can ship supplies but who will administer the medicine?
Most of the countries are lacking in medical technology and supplies rather than expertise. It's a lot easier to transfer knowledge than it is to transfer expensive materials.