Mao and Numbers

[Cryotank Screams]

I have read and seen recently that Mao toyed with the idea of getting rid of people's actual names, and instead assigned numbers, and before anyone starts to try to say, this is a bourgeoisie myth outright, there is photographic documentation of this event, in which peasants in Henan (Hunan) during the Great Leap Forward, are working with shirts with numbers on them, so my question what could possibly be the motivation be behind this? I mean I have tried to stand back and figure out, what rational Socialist backing could he possibly have for such endeavor, but I have found none, so any explanation would be greatly appreciated.

[bezdomni]

:lol:

So a picture of some chinese people with numbers on their shirts means Mao was considering changing everybody's name to a number?

You know who usually has a number on their shirt? Prisoners.

Or maybe the numbers represent the 60 MILLION people he killed? :P

These are absolutely ludicrous claims. Mao never advocated such a thing.

[Red Heretic]

Cryotank, get your head out of your ass. This is some of the most ridiculous bullshit I have ever seen in my life. Where did you get this? Source?

[RedAnarchist]

The population of China must have been in the hundreds of millions at that time - how on earth could he done that? I can't imagine Mr 115, 087, 981 or Ms 459, 865, 000.

[Cryotank Screams]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 04, 2007 05:31 pm
Cryotank, get your head out of your ass. This is some of the most ridiculous bullshit I have ever seen in my life. Where did you get this? Source?
My head isn't in my ass, and just because of bunch of Marxists freak out anytime a claim like this is made, doesn't mean that I am not approaching this from a rational standpoint which I am, and I have begun to study Marxist figures and such from an unbiased standpoint, and separate fact from fiction, hence this thread, and my source is picture number 47 from the book the Unknown Story of Mao, and I realize this is a biased book, however this is how it was captioned in the book, and the book was written by someone who researched this for over a decade, and whom has interviewed the likes of Luo Zhang-long, and Yi Li-rong, and the book is both massive, and has lots of notes, resources and what not, so it is safe to say this book is well researched, and thus another reason I posed the question, so before simply dismissing it and throwing a piss fest, why not step back, and discuss this was sort of civility? Hmm? Or is this impossible for you two?

[Cryotank Screams]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 05:34 pm
The population of China must have been in the hundreds of millions at that time - how on earth could he done that? I can't imagine Mr 115, 087, 981 or Ms 459, 865, 000.
Exactly, what I said, which is another reason why I couldn't figure out why Mao would toy with this idea and put it into semi-practice (assuming Chang and Halliday's assertion is correct), and not wanting to just dismiss outright, is what I am trying to figure out.

[Cryotank Screams]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 05:27 pm
These are absolutely ludicrous claims. Mao never advocated such a thing.
So you were there right? You have talked and interviewed people who were there and talked and worked with Mao, and were friends with Mao have you? You have studied Mao and the history of China at great length for years have you?

[bezdomni]

Why don't you find the picture of the peasants with the numbers on their clothes and post it? I don't believe peasants got a uniform in the mail that said "Mao wants you to wear this". The only things I can think of that explain the photo are:
1) It is a fake
2) They're prisoners
3) It's from a movie
4) They're Taiwanese (or at least not in China)
5) They have an odd sense in fashion

Why wouldn't any documentation exist on this, aside from a rabidly anti-communist book?

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by Cryotank Screams+February 04, 2007 09:47 pm--> (Cryotank Screams @ February 04, 2007 09:47 pm)
[email protected] 04, 2007 05:27 pm
These are absolutely ludicrous claims. Mao never advocated such a thing.
So you were there right? You have talked and interviewed people who were there and talked and worked with Mao, and were friends with Mao have you? You have studied Mao and the history of China at great length for years have you? [/b]
Were you?

[Honggweilo]

Wasnt mao from hunan himself? Anyway, these speculations could be anything from prisoners outfits to sport outfits

and my source is picture number 47 from the book the Unknown Story of Mao
The American Goverment even calls this a biased book <_<

Theres an review on the book in dutch from comrades from the Workers Party of Belgium.

http://www.ptb.be/scripts/article.phtml?lang=2&obid=28757

[Cryotank Screams]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 05:47 pm
Why don&#39;t you find the picture of the peasants with the numbers on their clothes and post it?
I tried but couldn&#39;t locate the picture online, hence why I gave specific instructions where the photograph would be located, and to be even more specific it&#39;s in between pages 560 and 561, in the second collection of photos in the book, and they were from Henan (Hunan), which is not only Mao&#39;s home province but also was known for fervent support of Mao, and was among those who were the slower sections of China to support Deng&#39;s reforms, and was known as Mao&#39;s model province.

Also, why am I getting fucking attacked for posing a simple question, based on researched and documented assertions? Did I fucking say these were true or not? No, I didn’t and that is what this whole thread is about, finding out what is true and what is fiction.

[Cryotank Screams]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 05:47 pm
Were you?
No, but I don’t&#39; outright dismiss something because of personal bias, nor do I speak with absolute authority on the subject, I mean I could have used this to slam Mao, and just accepted this as a lesser known "fact," of his rule, however I didn&#39;t, and I am trying to figure out again, what is fact from fiction.

[Cryotank Screams]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 05:47 pm
Wasnt mao from hunan himself? Anyway, these speculations could be anything from prisoners outfits to sport outfits
Yea, it was an area of his most loyal supporters from what I hear, and again an area who was among the slower to accept Deng&#39;s reforms, hence why I thought maybe they might be willing if not more than willing to try this experimental idea, and I did not want to just label them as prisoners without covering all the bases, as it were, first.

[Cryotank Screams]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 05:47 pm
Theres an review on the book in dutch from comrades from the Workers Party of Belgium.

http://www.ptb.be/scripts/article.phtml?lang=2&obid=28757
Is there an english or german translation of this review/text?

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Yes, and the way many poor sods ended up, they would have to have used decimals and fractions.

In the great famine (er..., sorry the Great Leap Forward), you&#39;d be referring to Mr 0.4 and his wife Ms 0.267, just before they snuffed it.

[Cryotank Screams]

Originally posted by Rosa [email protected]uary 04, 2007 06:32 pm
Yes, and the way many poor sods ended up, they would have to have used decimals and fractions.

In the great famine (er..., sorry the Great Leap Forward), you&#39;d be referring to Mr 0.4 and his wife Ms 0.267, just before they snuffed it.
Proof and resources?

[Spirit of Spartacus]

Originally posted by Cryotank Screams+February 04, 2007 10:47 pm--> (Cryotank Screams @ February 04, 2007 10:47 pm)
Rosa [email protected] 04, 2007 06:32 pm
Yes, and the way many poor sods ended up, they would have to have used decimals and fractions.

In the great famine (er..., sorry the Great Leap Forward), you&#39;d be referring to Mr 0.4 and his wife Ms 0.267, just before they snuffed it.
Proof and resources? [/b]
There was indeed a famine. How much of it was caused by the CCP is the question to be considered.

[Cryotank Screams]

Originally posted by Spirit of [email protected] 04, 2007 10:33 pm
There was indeed a famine. How much of it was caused by the CCP is the question to be considered.
I was actually talking about the subject of this thread which Rosa mentioned, and I think she said it was true (unless I misinterpreted her post, in which case I apologize), so I asked her for sources and proof.

[Vargha Poralli]

Originally posted by Rosa [email protected] 05, 2007 04:02 am
Yes, and the way many poor sods ended up, they would have to have used decimals and fractions.

In the great famine (er..., sorry the Great Leap Forward), you&#39;d be referring to Mr 0.4 and his wife Ms 0.267, just before they snuffed it.
I guess that is a sarcasm. Am i correct Rosa ?

/***********************************************&#092;

As for the OP I think it is really ridiculous propaganda CS. Mao is guilty for what he did after he took power I think there is no need to invent some crazy claims like this. If possible please scan the page from the book and post it even though the one of the authors of that book has a lot of axe to grind against Mao and many of her claims had been debunked and ridiculed both by Chinese and the western historians alike.

[Guerrilla22]

I think they should do that in the uS, that way no one would ever mispronounce your last name. I want to be number 22.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

G.Ram:


I guess that is a sarcasm. Am i correct Rosa ?

Sly critique, too.


Proof and resources?

I&#39;ll leave that to you detectives.

I am a mere philosopher.

[Cryotank Screams]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 04:04 am
As for the OP I think it is really ridiculous propaganda CS. Mao is guilty for what he did after he took power I think there is no need to invent some crazy claims like this. If possible please scan the page from the book and post it even though the one of the authors of that book has a lot of axe to grind against Mao and many of her claims had been debunked and ridiculed both by Chinese and the western historians alike.
I am not inventing anything, I have just been studying Mao, Lenin, Stalin, and Communism, and it&#39;s history more closely, and in the biography I am reading came across this and not wanting to dismiss it right off the bat, decided to try to find out if it was true or not, and if so, then why, that is all, hence this thread, I am not out to try to "slam," Mao, I am not out to prove anything, just to figure out, if it&#39;s just baseless slander, with photos of prisoners, or if it actually has some factual basis.

I will scan photograph, as soon as possible, but seeing as I don&#39;t have a scanner, it might take a little while.

[Vargha Poralli]

Originally posted by Cryotank [email protected] 05, 2007 06:58 pm
I am not inventing anything, I have just been studying Mao, Lenin, Stalin, and Communism, and it&#39;s history more closely, and in the biography I am reading came across this and not wanting to dismiss it right off the bat, decided to try to find out if it was true or not, and if so, then why, that is all, hence this thread, I am not out to try to "slam," Mao, I am not out to prove anything, just to figure out, if it&#39;s just baseless slander, with photos of prisoners, or if it actually has some factual basis.

I will scan photograph, as soon as possible, but seeing as I don&#39;t have a scanner, it might take a little while.
Well comrade I am not criticising you. I am just saying the source that you got this stuff is very much less credible and had been its claims are challenged by many western historians themselves with valid proofs.


I am not inventing anything

You didn&#39;t comrade but the author of that book did invent many things.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by Cryotank [email protected] 04, 2007 09:47 pm
So you were there right? You have talked and interviewed people who were there and talked and worked with Mao, and were friends with Mao have you? You have studied Mao and the history of China at great length for years have you?
I know you don&#39;t actually believe this claim, but the burden of proof lies on those who do, so asking these questions is a bit silly. Jung Chang may have done all those things, but that does not prove her specific claim about those numbers. Even if every claim in her book, apart from the numbers one, was documented and proved, it would still not strengthen the argument in favour of the numbers claim.

[Janus]

and they were from Henan (Hunan), which is not only Mao&#39;s home province but also was known for fervent support of Mao
Henan and Hunan are completely different provinces. Check a map, Henan is in the Northeast (it&#39;s where Shaolin is located) while Hunan is in the south. In Chinese, even words that have the same pinyin spelling can be different so don&#39;t always assume that similar looking words are the same.


I want to be number 22.
I think Mao made up the idea so he could be number 1. :P

[Janus]

I have read and seen recently that Mao toyed with the idea of getting rid of people&#39;s actual names, and instead assigned numbers, and before anyone starts to try to say, this is a bourgeoisie myth outright, there is photographic documentation of this event, in which peasants in Henan (Hunan) during the Great Leap Forward, are working with shirts with numbers on them, so my question what could possibly be the motivation be behind this? I mean I have tried to stand back and figure out, what rational Socialist backing could he possibly have for such endeavor, but I have found none, so any explanation would be greatly appreciated.
This is probably one of the stranger rumors that I&#39;ve heard about Mao. First of all, this type of arrangement would be mind-boggling so if Mao ever considered it (which I doubt) he probably would&#39;ve dropped it immediately. Second of all, despite Mao&#39;s rhetoric, he was actually a pretty traditionalist person, and it would&#39;ve been unlikely that he would&#39;ve challenged this societal value especially when the Chinese place such an importance on names (before 1949, people actually had several names: birth name, styled name, self-created name, nicknames,etc.).

[Guerrilla22]

I think Mao made up the idea so he could be number 1.

Probaly. I think revleft should abandon user names and adopt a system where members are assigned a number.

[Janus]

My head isn&#39;t in my ass, and just because of bunch of Marxists freak out anytime a claim like this is made, doesn&#39;t mean that I am not approaching this from a rational standpoint which I am, and I have begun to study Marxist figures and such from an unbiased standpoint, and separate fact from fiction, hence this thread, and my source is picture number 47 from the book the Unknown Story of Mao, and I realize this is a biased book, however this is how it was captioned in the book, and the book was written by someone who researched this for over a decade, and whom has interviewed the likes of Luo Zhang-long, and Yi Li-rong, and the book is both massive, and has lots of notes, resources and what not, so it is safe to say this book is well researched, and thus another reason I posed the question, so before simply dismissing it and throwing a piss fest, why not step back, and discuss this was sort of civility? Hmm? Or is this impossible for you two?
Now this weird rumor is starting to come together. You do realize that Jung Chang has devoted practically her whole life to bashing Mao and the PRC right? That&#39;s pretty much the purpose of her Mao book; she&#39;s quite willing to ditch fact and factual resources in order to slam Mao and the CCP. Yes, the book has lots of resources but reviews have already commented on its unreliability. For example, she ignores sources that were not to her liking and instead uses random, unreliable sources to try to prove major portions of her book. One case of this is in the Luding Bridge part when she used some random people she found near the town to try to back her theory that it was all a lie.

The photographs are probably even more biased. One of the photos in there is from the early 1950&#39;s yet Jung states that it&#39;s from 1960 and on the caption states that it&#39;s a picture of the PRC leaders worrying over the Great Leap Forward.

So this brings us brings us to the picture of the supposedly numbered workers. All
technical manipulation aside, have you taken into account the possibility that it&#39;s a gang of prisoners working? I&#39;ll try to look up the picture myself but if it&#39;s an actual group of workers with number tags then it&#39;s also possible that it may have been used to coordinate people&#39;s working places and schedules. None of my family members have heard of it so if that was the case then it never really succeeded but it certainly doesn&#39;t mean that the CCP was planning on stripping people of their names fully.

[Janus]

I think revleft should abandon user names and adopt a system where members are assigned a number.
We do have member numbers. If you prefer, I could call you 7788. :P

[Cryotank Screams]

Janus;

Thanks for your input, and I was hoping to hear from you as you seem to be well read on chinese Communist history, and I am beginning to believe this is just falsified information, do to the impracticality, and obvious lunacy, and I did know and said that Chang&#39;s book is very biased, but do to her massive amount of research it made me wonder if it was just her bullshit, or was there something to it, and as for the spelling of chinese provinces I do apologize, however the resources I was going by said it was the same thing, but yea, I&#39;m just a bewildered european, when it comes to chinese, :P .

[Janus]

and as for the spelling of chinese provinces I do apologize, however the resources I was going by said it was the same thing
Hmm...it may have been based on the Wade-Giles system (Western created system for Chinese pronunciation) as opposed to pinyin. The former is a bit more confusing than the latter. But I don&#39;t blame this error; even in Chinese characters Henan and Hunan are similar. 湖南 (Hunan) means "South of the lake" whereas 河南 (Henan) means "South of the river".


but do to her massive amount of research it made me wonder if it was just her bullshit, or was there something to it
Large amounts of sources are usually a positive thing but not always but little sources on the other hand are always a suspicious thing. And like I said, Jung Chang used a lot of unreliable sources just in order to further her views.

There&#39;s no doubt that Chang spent quite a bit of time on her book yet her motives made a flawed and biased book inevitable.

Anyways, I&#39;ll try to check out those pages you mentioned and analyze this for myself.

[Red Heretic]

Originally posted by Cryotank [email protected] 04, 2007 09:39 pm
the book the Unknown Story of Mao, and I realize this is a biased book
No comrade, "Mao: The Unkown Story" isn&#39;t just biased. It is one of the largest historical falsifications in human history. It is a total concentration of reactionary lies and distortions of the truth, and it is part of a larger campaign to rewrite history and destroy the reputation of the Chinese revolution.


New Mao Biography: Not Historical Scholarship but Hysterical Rant (http://rwor.org/a/021/mao-biography-hysterical-rant.htm)


The True History of the Soviet and Chinese Revolutions (http://thisiscommunism.org/speech.htm)

[OneBrickOneVoice]

OMFG this is great :lol: can a mod put this in chit-chat? Let me get this straight, you are using a picture of someone with a shirt with numbers on it, and a book which has been refuted in China, makes systematic factual errors, and recieved aid from the US to be published as a credible source for some fucking random myth? This is fantasitic. Perhaps this can be merged with the "lets make up shit about Mao" thread

[insurgent]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 06, 2007 05:26 pm

No comrade, "Mao: The Unkown Story" isn&#39;t just biased. It is one of the largest historical falsifications in human history. It is a total concentration of reactionary lies and distortions of the truth, and it is part of a larger campaign to rewrite history and destroy the reputation of the Chinese revolution.


New Mao Biography: Not Historical Scholarship but Hysterical Rant (http://rwor.org/a/021/mao-biography-hysterical-rant.htm)


The True History of the Soviet and Chinese Revolutions (http://thisiscommunism.org/speech.htm)

Your article on the true History of the Soviet and Chinese revolutions is obviously very pro-Mao. People say that Jung Chang&#39;s book is biased, and I have it sitting right here and there is no doubt in my mind that it is. But your article is also biased.

Nothing is unbiased because people have opinions. I&#39;ve had a very hard time finding an account of the chinse or russian revolutions that arent for or against communism. Someone that is not interested in the subject would obviously not write a book on the subject seeing how dense it is, so no account will be "unbiased." I just want a book that can tell me events that occured and the peoples reaction without getting their hatred or love for Mao or Stalin involved.


If anyone could help me with finding a book or article of this nature I&#39;d appreciate it

[Cryotank Screams]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 07:31 pm
OMFG this is great :lol: can a mod put this in chit-chat? Let me get this straight, you are using a picture of someone with a shirt with numbers on it, and a book which has been refuted in China, makes systematic factual errors, and recieved aid from the US to be published as a credible source for some fucking random myth? This is fantasitic. Perhaps this can be merged with the "lets make up shit about Mao" thread
First off, I didn&#39;t make this shit up, so before you get all giddy and start posting a barrage of insults and jabs, realize I AM NOT THE ONE SAYING THIS, I was the one that was just simply asking if this is true or not, I mean how many times do I have to say this, I am not saying this is true, when I posted this, I was asking a simple question, based on something I read, by an author who seemingly researched this quite extensively and for a very long time, however I do and did realized that she is extremely very biased (which I said right off the bat), however taken all the factors in, I initially didn&#39;t want to rule it out as simply wrong, which I admit was rather naive of me, and yes, I realize now that this is completely a false claim, BIG FUCKING DEAL, honestly, I don&#39;t see why you had to necromance this fucking thread, maybe just to insult me?

Excuse me for asking a bloody question, <_< .

Thanks for the articles RH.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Actually I didn&#39;t insult you. I just don&#39;t think this should be in a serious thread. Its like, what kind of response do you think I would get if I started a thread in the theory forum asserting that all anarchists have small penises on their foreheads. Same type of assertion. We already get enough random mao bashing from the right, no need to make post newly created shit inside the left.

[Cryotank Screams]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 09:34 pm
Actually I didn&#39;t insult you.
Oh, then I apologize.


I just don&#39;t think this should be in a serious thread. Its like, what kind of response do you think I would get if I started a thread in the theory forum asserting that all anarchists have small penises on their foreheads. Same type of assertion. We already get enough random mao bashing from the right, no need to make post newly created shit inside the left.

Point made.

[Janus]

I just want a book that can tell me events that occured and the peoples reaction without getting their hatred or love for Mao or Stalin involved.
There are some books out there that are less biased but the best idea is to check out different books about the Chinese revolution. You&#39;ll get the official party history in some and find more revisionist history in others.

[Rawthentic]

We already get enough random mao bashing from the right, no need to make post newly created shit inside the left.
To learn from the mistakes and atrocities from "revolutionary" leaders, it&#39;s quite useful I would say. We don&#39;t want to repeat the same despotism and horrors committed by such people.

[Liberal Kid]

Man you guys attack people easily, not really helping the cause when you freak out at someone asking a simple question...

Well Mao interesting fellow, I wouldn&#39;t say exactly that I hate him persay but. I can&#39;t say that I&#39;ll ever be defending him.

I&#39;m currently studying Mao and I&#39;m reading Mao: A life and Mao the Unknown story. Once again everyones bias always comes out, because all of you have ignored that some historical professors thinks it is a good book. It is extremely biased, but at the same time I can&#39;t say that I feel bad for Mao.

As far as the numbers idea. Well it wouldn&#39;t surprise that much to be honest. This is the same guy that ordered the construction of backyard furnaces to create more steel. Mao ordered peasants to create furnaces in their backyard and told them to use anything they could to fuel it and melt down any sort of metal to create steel.

And I would say that Mao the Unknown Story had a co-author if you hadn&#39;t noticed Jon Halliday.

Finally the famine, yea its safe to blame that on Mao. The weather was fine, Mao took the grain crop from the farmers and sold it or gave it away. It was VERY similar to Stalin&#39;s five year plans in that aspect (the difference being Stalin&#39;s five year plans had a lot more success).

Anyway back to the numbers topic, I suppose it is possible and then at the same time it is also might not have happened. Once again though we&#39;re referring to the guy that asked for criticism then when he got it, he discredited the person completely (Peng Dehuai).

[Janus]

And I would say that Mao the Unknown Story had a co-author if you hadn&#39;t noticed Jon Halliday.
Who happens to be Jung Chang&#39;s husband.


Mao took the grain crop from the farmers and sold it or gave it away.
See, when you state things like that, you&#39;re putting Mao on a pedestool by assuming that he had control over all minute operations. Yes, Mao was definitely responsible for the failure of the Great Leap and even admitted it himself but one must also take into account bureaucratic inefficiences,corruption, and the weather (which was not so fine).


Once again though we&#39;re referring to the guy that asked for criticism then when he got it, he discredited the person completely (Peng Dehuai).
Actually, the last time that Mao ever called for criticism was during the Hundred Flowers Movement. Peng Dehuai was certainly brave to challenge Mao yet unfortunately he didn&#39;t have much support.