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Karl Marx's Camel
4th February 2007, 21:04
Message from the Iraqi resistance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ISQWsezxLM)

Nathan_Morrison
4th February 2007, 22:05
I hope they succeed in their rebellion.

A SCANNER DARKLY
4th February 2007, 22:18
I remember seeing this 2-3 years ago. Pure propaganda.

grove street
5th February 2007, 01:14
I've heard that the Iraqi Communist party is a part of the resistance.

Spirit of Spartacus
5th February 2007, 01:37
Originally posted by A SCANNER [email protected] 04, 2007 10:18 pm
I remember seeing this 2-3 years ago. Pure propaganda.
Ahem.

So you don't think the Iraqi Resistance should be there?

RedStarOverChina
5th February 2007, 03:02
Victory to the resistance!

Nothing Human Is Alien
5th February 2007, 04:36
I've heard that the Iraqi Communist party is a part of the resistance.

No, they're a part of the puppet government.

The Worker-Communist Party of Iraq is doing some things, but they're not a part of the reactionary Islamist "resistance."

Tekun
5th February 2007, 10:59
Pretty damn articulate!

Like Hezbollah, groups like this always have an agenda that clashes with the interests of the working class and the population as a whole
Yet, as Iraqis they have the right and I applaud their zeal to resist American imperialism

KC
5th February 2007, 15:00
Like Hezbollah, groups like this always have an agenda that clashes with the interests of the working class and the population as a whole
Yet, as Iraqis they have the right and I applaud their zeal to resist American imperialism

So you support groups that are working against the working class?

AmerGuerilla
5th February 2007, 16:41
Like Hezbollah, groups like this always have an agenda that clashes with the interests of the working class and the population as a whole
Yet, as Iraqis they have the right and I applaud their zeal to resist American imperialism

I dont support the war on Iraq and I dont support the Iraqi Resistance. I wish they did support the Iraqi working class but no the sunni death squads gun down shitte and even kurd working class people trying to reclaim power and the former oppressive dictatorship of the Sunnis minority. If you support that then you support sectarianism from any group wether American or Iraqi and if you support that go to fucking hell.

Coggeh
5th February 2007, 16:43
this vid is so fucking old ... meh VIVA LE RESISTANCE

Anton
5th February 2007, 17:22
yeah, the video is quite old,
I do support the resistance to the US occupation.
Of course, the islamist separatist factions are not progressive or beneficial, but the way I see it, if I was an Iraqi, i would pick up arms and fight against the US soldiers. I guess some of the whole "occupation soldiers are working class allies" sentiment disappears when you are being shot at, bombed, detained, tortured, raped etc.

Spirit of Spartacus
5th February 2007, 18:47
Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 04:41 pm

Like Hezbollah, groups like this always have an agenda that clashes with the interests of the working class and the population as a whole
Yet, as Iraqis they have the right and I applaud their zeal to resist American imperialism

I dont support the war on Iraq and I dont support the Iraqi Resistance. I wish they did support the Iraqi working class but no the sunni death squads gun down shitte and even kurd working class people trying to reclaim power and the former oppressive dictatorship of the Sunnis minority. If you support that then you support sectarianism from any group wether American or Iraqi and if you support that go to fucking hell.
You don't support the war in Iraq, you're a revolutionary leftist AND you don't support the Iraqi Resistance either?! :blink:

So ummm...perhaps we should all sit down and pray to "God" to get the imperialists out of Iraq?

As for the sectarian fighting, it was bound to happen whenever Saddam's regime fell. To oppose the whole Iraqi Resistance just because of the sectarian elements, that's not going to work.

Phalanx
5th February 2007, 19:50
I think it's a legitimate complaint. The resistance so far has been targeting working class Sunnis and Shias regardless if they're collaborating with the occupiers. The conflict has basically gone from a resistance movement to a sectarian bloodbath.

Anton
5th February 2007, 20:09
Originally posted by Tatanka [email protected] 05, 2007 07:50 pm
I think it's a legitimate complaint. The resistance so far has been targeting working class Sunnis and Shias regardless if they're collaborating with the occupiers. The conflict has basically gone from a resistance movement to a sectarian bloodbath.
Yes or at least it's presented that way but anyway...
I am pretty sure most members here do no support the sectarian violence.
I wouldn't be surprised if I found out the US and co have been in some way fueling these conflicts.

YKTMX
5th February 2007, 20:14
Originally posted by Tatanka [email protected] 05, 2007 07:50 pm
I think it's a legitimate complaint. The resistance so far has been targeting working class Sunnis and Shias regardless if they're collaborating with the occupiers. The conflict has basically gone from a resistance movement to a sectarian bloodbath.
There are two things going on at the moment.

There is a legitimate national resistance movement aiming to create a indepdent Iraq, free from foreign control. This movement is highly decentralized and lacks any formal political character. It consists of Islamists, nationalists, some Baathists, some Saddam "loyalists" etc. These groups target the coalition forces and the forces of the Iraqi "State", like the corrupt police.

Then there is another dynamic involving the battle for supremacy between the Sunni Iraqis, the Shia and the Kurds in the North. This is different but not completely distinct to the first dynamic.

It's easy to complain every time a bomb goes off that it's all the "resistance", but things are actually more subtle than that.

Of course, the conflation of the two dynamics serves the purposes of the Occupation forces and the Iraqi state and their allies on the left, like CDL and others.

Anton
5th February 2007, 20:30
YKTMX, that sounds sensible, i hope you're right
any sources?

YKTMX
5th February 2007, 20:34
Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 08:30 pm
YKTMX, that sounds sensible, i hope you're right
any sources?
In regards to what in particular?

Anton
5th February 2007, 20:38
Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 08:34 pm

In regards to what in particular?
your post above: the duality of the conflict, etc.
I'm not saying that's not the case, in fact what you said there makes sense to me, i was just wondering whether you were saying that based on certain sources or lgical dissemination of general news or personal experience, etc.

RedKnight
5th February 2007, 20:38
The paradox is that the coalition forces will leave as soon as the nation of Iraq is secure and stable. So if the armed groups would just disband and disarm themselves, the occupiers should return to there native lands. Iraq has a provisional government. The people of Iraq should support the new government, and work peaceably for social change.

Anton
5th February 2007, 20:48
Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 08:38 pm
The paradox is that the coalition forces will leave as soon as the nation of Iraq is secure and stable. So if the armed groups would just disband and disarm themselves, the occupiers should return to there native lands. Iraq has a provisional government. The people of Iraq should support the new government, and work peaceably for social change.
Oh come on,
do you really believe the Iraqis should just peacefully allow the "coalition" to do what they want with the country? Why should they support the provisional government?
That's like telling a rape victim to just lay there and take it....

Phalanx
5th February 2007, 23:33
There is a legitimate national resistance movement aiming to create a indepdent Iraq, free from foreign control. This movement is highly decentralized and lacks any formal political character. It consists of Islamists, nationalists, some Baathists, some Saddam "loyalists" etc. These groups target the coalition forces and the forces of the Iraqi "State", like the corrupt police.

Right, and this has been continuing ever since the US set foot in Iraq. The problem is, there hasn't been any huge push towards this dynamic. Most of the fighting in Iraq is concentrated on sectarian violence. Attacks on the Iraqi police have dropped and the targets have largely switched from the police and coalition soldiers to innocents. Like you said, the corrupt police force is just adding to this. Death squads have been formed out of police departments and these officers go on killing sprees without fear of retribution.

There still is a large anti-imperialist front in Iraq, but I fear the country is sliding more towards ethnic cleansing than a war of liberation.

Tekun
5th February 2007, 23:54
Originally posted by Zampanò@February 05, 2007 03:00 pm

Like Hezbollah, groups like this always have an agenda that clashes with the interests of the working class and the population as a whole
Yet, as Iraqis they have the right and I applaud their zeal to resist American imperialism

So you support groups that are working against the working class?
As a group with an agenda, obviously no....they're anti-working class
But I do support the right that they have to resist and fight the imperialists
Do you?
Or do u believe that these groups should all lay down their weapons and acquiesce America's every demand?

KC
5th February 2007, 23:56
Or do u believe that these groups should all lay down their weapons and acquiesce America's every demand?


Actually I encourage them all killing each other.

Phalanx
5th February 2007, 23:58
Originally posted by Zampanò@February 05, 2007 11:56 pm


Or do u believe that these groups should all lay down their weapons and acquiesce America's every demand?


Actually I encourage them all killing each other.
Even if some are genuine leftists?

KC
6th February 2007, 00:07
Even if some are genuine leftists?

Anti-working class genuine leftists?

Phalanx
6th February 2007, 00:48
So you're saying there isn't any elements of the resistance that are leftist? Sounds like a wild generalization.

KC
6th February 2007, 01:25
Uh, no. I was talking about members of the resistance that are anti-working class. Next time read the thread.

grove street
6th February 2007, 01:28
The Iraqi resistance is at large a joke. If they focused more time on killing American troops instead of one another, they may actually be able to cause some real damage to American forces and really make America think about leaving.

Phalanx
6th February 2007, 02:23
Originally posted by Zampanò@February 06, 2007 01:25 am
Uh, no. I was talking about members of the resistance that are anti-working class. Next time read the thread.
The thread's about the resistance in general, not just the Islamists/sectarians.

KC
6th February 2007, 02:29
See this (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=62102&view=findpost&p=1292256851) post.

Guerrilla22
6th February 2007, 02:36
Originally posted by grove [email protected] 06, 2007 01:28 am
The Iraqi resistance is at large a joke. If they focused more time on killing American troops instead of one another, they may actually be able to cause some real damage to American forces and really make America think about leaving.
I wouldn't refer to the resistance as a joke, surely the US takes them serious. The problem is after Saddam was removed there was a huge power vaccum that has resulted in a civil war, of course. Now it looks pretty bleak that Iraq will ever recover from this chaos.

Phalanx
6th February 2007, 02:36
See this post.


I feel like an ass.

Spirit of Spartacus
6th February 2007, 02:48
Comrades, I have one simple point for you to consider.

More than 2000 occupation troops have died in Iraq. The majority died after Saddam had been removed from power.

Did they just shoot themselves in the head?

KC
6th February 2007, 02:52
What's your point?

Spirit of Spartacus
6th February 2007, 03:00
Originally posted by Zampanò@February 06, 2007 02:52 am
What's your point?
That there's a real resistance, despite the sectarian violence.

Tekun
6th February 2007, 10:05
Originally posted by Zampanò@February 05, 2007 11:56 pm


Or do u believe that these groups should all lay down their weapons and acquiesce America's every demand?


Actually I encourage them all killing each other.
Wishful thinking...though if all of the Iraqi resistance were dead, who would oppose the fresh batch of imperialist drones that the US would send on over?
Considering the small/nonexistant role that leftists are playing in the Iraqi resistance, I support the right to resist imperialism that various Iraqis and groups have exihibited up until now

KC
6th February 2007, 12:42
Wishful thinking...though if all of the Iraqi resistance were dead, who would oppose the fresh batch of imperialist drones that the US would send on over?

Well, they're doing a great job killing each other right now anyways. And maybe you didn't understand that the occupying forces are included in my comment when I said "I hope they all kill each other".


I support the right to resist imperialism that various Iraqis and groups have exihibited up until now

And again I ask the question - you support groups that are actively working against the working class?

union6
6th February 2007, 15:09
The Iraqi Resistance is just like there religious version of The BNP or The National front. And I doubt that the people who say that they support them on here are Muslims and they only say they support them so they can take digs at the US and at George Bush.

Phalanx
6th February 2007, 23:43
Originally posted by Spirit of [email protected] 06, 2007 02:48 am
Comrades, I have one simple point for you to consider.

More than 2000 occupation troops have died in Iraq. The majority died after Saddam had been removed from power.

Did they just shoot themselves in the head?
Yeah, and 1000 Iraqi civilians die every week. Sounds like the resistance is doing a bang up job! :rolleyes:

KC
6th February 2007, 23:48
Yeah, and 1000 Iraqi civilians die every week

Many of which are killed by the Resistance themselves!!! :rolleyes:

Phalanx
6th February 2007, 23:49
Most of which are killed by the resistance.

grove street
7th February 2007, 02:55
Originally posted by Zampanò@February 06, 2007 11:48 pm

Yeah, and 1000 Iraqi civilians die every week

Many of which are killed by the Resistance themselves!!! :rolleyes:
People like to compare Iraq to Vietnam, the major difference between the 2 is that the Viet Cong were untied as one and didn't go around killing innocent civilians.

dso79
7th February 2007, 21:01
Yeah, and 1000 Iraqi civilians die every week. Sounds like the resistance is doing a bang up job!

It’s important to note that even though Iraqi civilian deaths skyrocketed, US casualties didn‘t decline. In fact, the last few months were some of the deadliest ever for US forces. This would suggest that there are indeed two dynamics, like YKTMX pointed out, and that the resistance is still strong.

union6
7th February 2007, 21:36
Originally posted by grove street+February 07, 2007 02:55 am--> (grove street @ February 07, 2007 02:55 am)
Zampanò@February 06, 2007 11:48 pm

Yeah, and 1000 Iraqi civilians die every week

Many of which are killed by the Resistance themselves!!! :rolleyes:
People like to compare Iraq to Vietnam, the major difference between the 2 is that the Viet Cong were untied as one and didn't go around killing innocent civilians. [/b]
Here here, i fully agree with you!

Phalanx
7th February 2007, 22:07
Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 09:01 pm

Yeah, and 1000 Iraqi civilians die every week. Sounds like the resistance is doing a bang up job!

It’s important to note that even though Iraqi civilian deaths skyrocketed, US casualties didn‘t decline. In fact, the last few months were some of the deadliest ever for US forces. This would suggest that there are indeed two dynamics, like YKTMX pointed out, and that the resistance is still strong.
The point is Iraqi civilian deaths have skyrocketed. The conflict has become mostly sectarian without a major anti-imperialist front. The reason occupation casualties have gone up is because they've begun regular patrols. Before they'd been staying in their barracks watching the chaos around them.

The resistance almost seems half-assed.

Forward Union
7th February 2007, 22:10
Does the Pro-resistance analysis of the movement end at the point when 'the Americans leave'? I know that the idea of muslims killing americans can give islam-trots restless nights, the fact is that victory for any faction in the resistance would be nothing short of a kick in the teeth for the working class.

Because from what YTKMX said, it looks like the result coming from a victory for the resistance would most likely mean an Islamist state, possibly ba'athist?

I&#39;d like to support the resistance, but being anti-american isn&#39;t enough for me to support a religious-authoritarian movement. <_<

Phalanx
7th February 2007, 22:16
Unfortunately the majority of the resistance comes from either the authoritarian Ba&#39;athists or Islamists. I&#39;m not even sure how large the genuine leftist segment is.

When the battle against the imperialists over, a new battle starts. Iraq, being a very religious country, is almost guaranteed to go over to the extreme-religious end of the spectrum. The workers of Iraq need support more than ever before.

grove street
8th February 2007, 01:16
The Baath party is pro secular. Even though Saddam was a brutal dictator he spent his whole life from trying to prevent Iraq from becoming an Islamic state. Under Saddam as long as you kept quite and did what you were told you had freedom of religion and some of the best womens rights in the Middle East.

Phalanx
8th February 2007, 02:52
Originally posted by grove [email protected] 08, 2007 01:16 am
The Baath party is pro secular. Even though Saddam was a brutal dictator he spent his whole life from trying to prevent Iraq from becoming an Islamic state. Under Saddam as long as you kept quite and did what you were told you had freedom of religion and some of the best womens rights in the Middle East.
While Saddam&#39;s reign brought women&#39;s rights to Iraq, he was also one of the most brutal dictators in the region. He oppressed workers all the same, so we shouldn&#39;t mourn his loss.

Tekun
8th February 2007, 03:46
Originally posted by Zampanò@February 06, 2007 12:42 pm

Wishful thinking...though if all of the Iraqi resistance were dead, who would oppose the fresh batch of imperialist drones that the US would send on over?

Well, they&#39;re doing a great job killing each other right now anyways. And maybe you didn&#39;t understand that the occupying forces are included in my comment when I said "I hope they all kill each other".


I support the right to resist imperialism that various Iraqis and groups have exihibited up until now

And again I ask the question - you support groups that are actively working against the working class?
The occupying forces are ever increasing, once a few die more come in
If the resistance were completely wiped out or severely decimated, who would oppose the imperialists?
So no matter if they all kill eachother in Iraq, the imperialists will continue to send in more unless they&#39;re ideologically and monetarily defeated
And the only way for that to happen, is for the resistance to defeat them


And again, I respond to your question:
I support the right to resist imperialism that various Iraqis and groups have exihibited up until now
As a collective group obviously no, but I do support their right to fight on or resist

KC
8th February 2007, 04:11
The occupying forces are ever increasing, once a few die more come in
If the resistance were completely wiped out or severely decimated, who would oppose the imperialists?
So no matter if they all kill eachother in Iraq, the imperialists will continue to send in more unless they&#39;re ideologically and monetarily defeated
And the only way for that to happen, is for the resistance to defeat them

If you think that the defeat of the imperialist forces by the fundamentalist resistance will be an improvement for Iraq, then you&#39;re sadly mistaken. The fact of the matter is that these are two groups whose interests are both fundamentally opposed to that of the working class. If anything, the fundamentalists will set up a situation worse than the imperialists, for the very reason that their interests are such that they desire to reverse capitalism and set up an Islamic state ruled by barbaric sharia law. If anything, that&#39;s going against the development of capitalism.

So the fact remains that both of these groups are against the interests of the working class and that the only thing communists should support is the killing of both of these groups by each other.


And again, I respond to your question:
I support the right to resist imperialism that various Iraqis and groups have exihibited up until now
As a collective group obviously no, but I do support their right to fight on or resist

Even if this fight against imperialism leads to something more reactionary than imperialism? Do you support anti-imperialist actions in general? Even those of a nationa/progressive bourgeoisie against the imperialist bourgeoisie? If so, on what basis?

YKTMX
8th February 2007, 14:20
Firstly, see this analysis of a report on the Iraqi resistance carried out by a branch of US intel:


Does the Iraqi Resistance Target Civilians?Does the Resistance Target Civilians?
According to US Intel, Not Really

by M. Junaid Alam; Left Hook; April 18, 2005
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cf...=15&ItemID=7670 (http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=7670)


The ceaseless demonization of Iraqis committed to ending foreign control of their country is a key ideological crutch for maintaining the American occupation. Smearing the armed resistance as a band of murderous thugs is well understood by American war planners to be a crucial part of effective counter-insurgency work. (1) Obviously, brutal and horrific attacks on Iraqi civilians have been carried out by some forces claiming to be a part of the resistance. But there is strong evidence from US government and independent intelligence data suggesting that this phenomenon has been wildly exaggerated and torn out of context, creating a false public perception that serves to prop up domestic support for the occupation.

Consider the intelligence report produced on December 22, 2004, by the prestigious Center for Strategic and International Studies, headed by Anthony Cordesman, titled “The Developing Iraqi Insurgency: Status at end-2004.” (2) Cordesman issues a blunt critique of US government blindness about the scope and nature of the insurgency: “[The U.S.] was slow to react to the growth of the Iraqi insurgency in Iraq, to admit it was largely domestic in character, and to admit it had significant popular support.”

The most intriguing portion of the report, though, is a set of statistics compiled about attacks carried out by the resistance from September 2003 to October 2004, organized by type of target, number of attacks, and number of people killed and wounded. The data, described as having been collected by an “NGO coordinating committee” is organized into a table in the report. I have culled the data specifically concerning “number of attacks/incidents” and presented it as a chart graphic contained in the clickable link below:( http://www.lefthook.org/Charts/CSIS.jpg )

One can clearly see that the number of attacks on “Coalition Forces” far exceeds that of any other category on the list. Indeed, attacks on military occupying forces, and by extension mostly US military forces, accounts for 75% of all attacks. Meanwhile, civilian targets comprise a mere 4.1% of attacks. This reality is at striking odds with the general picture painted in the press of a narcissistic, mindless and sinister insurgency simply bent on chaos and destruction.

It should also be noted here that while the CSIS is widely recognized and Anthony Cordesman regularly appears in the mainstream press, not a single one of the usual liberal outlets has picked up on the report, mentioned this statistic in particular, or discussed its political implications. This is probably because it poses a threat to their pro-occupation line and White Man’s Burden philosophy which posits Iraqis as too helpless to save themselves. The only publication to have examined this now more than three-month-old document is the Marxist monthly International Socialist Review. (3)

It is not possible to dismiss the statistics as a fluke. An April 11th New York Times article titled “U.S. Commanders See Possible Troop Cuts in Iraq” is accompanied by a graph representing resistance attacks by number and by proportion for the period of March 2003 to March 2005, broken down into the following categories: attacks on U.S. and allied forces, civilians, Iraqi forces, and other targets. The source of the data is the Defense Intelligence Agency. Because there is no direct link for the graph and because the Times’ online graphic is somewhat blurry, I have sharpened the image and posted it here for reference, again as a clickable link: ( http://www.lefthook.org/Charts/NYTimes.jpg )

Once more it is manifestly clear that attacks on civilians make up only a small fraction of overall attacks, on a consistent basis and over a sustained period of time. Notice also that even though the past few months has seen a massive effort to train new Iraqi security forces to fight the insurgency, the proportion of attacks aimed at the nascent US-trained Iraqi forces has hardly increased, if at all. Given that the formation of these new forces is largely composed along ethnic lines, the graph belies the notion that there has been some kind of massive outburst of sectarian attacks by the resistance.

Why have these developments gone largely unnoticed? One reason -- or rather, excuse -- is that even though military forces are the focus of an overwhelming majority of attacks, civilian casualties predominate. Looking at deaths and injures in the period examined by the CSIS report, we see that 451 “Coalition Forces” were killed and 1,002 injured, whereas 1,981 civilians were killed and 3,467 injured. The most obvious reason for this discrepancy is that bombing a group of Iraqi civilians in a marketplace will yield far more casualties than assaulting professionally trained soldiers backed by sophisticated military armor.

Cynical observers would insist that the discrepancy between distribution of attacks and casualties explains that distribution, as if there is some sort of overarching plot by the resistance to focus attacks on the military precisely because less resources are needed to kill civilians. Such a view assumes, first and foremost, a central, unified command structure, and that does not exist. It also assumes that insurgents who are motivated to carry out careful, coordinated attacks in ways specifically designed to minimize their chances of death would gladly blow themselves up in the suicide attacks which have characterized the most deadly assaults on civilians: a ridiculous proposition unless we assume the insurgents are also schizophrenics.

Far more likely is that nationalist currents within the resistance confront and attack US forces and other symbols of the occupation whereas fanatical, opportunistic elements on the margins conduct spectacular, sectarian attacks which invariably garner sensationalistic media coverage. Indeed, Patrick Cockburn’s recent April 11, 2005 report from Iraq bears out precisely this assessment. He writes: “The split is between Islamic fanatics, willing to kill anybody remotely connected with the government, and Iraqi nationalists who want to concentrate on attacking the 130,000 US troops in Iraq.” Noting that “Posters threatening extreme resistance fighters have appeared on walls in Ramadi,” Cockburn quotes a Ramadi Sunni imam as saying, “[The fanatics] have tarnished our image and used the jihad to make personal gains.” (4)

And these fanatics are generously aided in their endeavor by an American government all too eager to characterize the entire resistance as beyond the pale. US intelligence agents in Iraq have admitted, for instance, to paying people off to make up stories about the fanatically anti-Shiite sectarian Zarqawi:

“We were basically paying up to &#036;US10,000 (&#036;A13,700) a time to opportunists, criminals and chancers who passed off fiction and supposition about Zarqawi as cast-iron fact, making him out as the linchpin of just about every attack in Iraq,” one agent said.


“Back home this stuff was gratefully received and formed the basis of policy decisions. We needed a villain, someone identifiable for the public to latch on to, and we got one.” (5)


The assessment that most resistance forces are not engaging in sectarian and brutal attacks on civilians is further supported by a major political event. On April 9th, a group of mostly Shiite demonstrators numbering perhaps 300,000, according estimates cited by the LA Times, flowed into Firdos Square where Saddam’s statue was removed two years ago and vociferously demanded an end to the American presence in Iraq. In what Juan Cole describes as “the largest popular demonstrations in Iraq since 1958” (6) (assuming only 150,000 demonstrated), protesters burned Bush, Blair, and Saddam in effigy, chanting, “No, no to America&#33; No, no to occupation&#33;” One demonstrator captured the popular mood succinctly, declaring: “America is the mother of terrorism. All the explosions are happening because they are here.” (7)

Would such a massive number of Shiites have shown up to protest the occupation if they thought that most of the Sunni-based armed resistance, also opposed to the occupation, was trying to kill them? Indeed, a number of Sunnis joined the demonstrations, as some Sunni imams exhorted their followers to do so during Friday prayers. (8)

Ultimately, the combination of intelligence data, political realities on the ground, and some basic common sense point to the fact that the resistance is not the stereotypical horde of incompetent, crazed brown barbarians so often conjured up in the Western imagination. The sooner we realize this, the sooner we can end the barbarism of the war itself.

M. Junaid Alam, 22, is co-editor of Left Hook (http://www.lefthook.org ), and attends Northeastern University in Boston. He can be reached at [email protected]

Notes:

1. See the quote prefacing Mark Danner’s excellent article/report on Iraq, here: http://www.markdanner.com/nyreview/042805_Iraq_election.htm

2. http://www.csis.org/features/iraq_deviraqinsurgency.pdf

3. http://www.isreview.org/

4. The Independent

5. http://fairuse.1accesshost.com/news2/age14.html

6. JuanCole.com

7. L.A. Times

8. http://www.rfi.fr/actufr/afp/une/050409200742.iw5ba5fq.asp (French)
posted by islamic humanism on July 15, 2005 - 23:40 in Politics (international)
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http://www.dialognow.org/node/view/1080

I&#39;ve highlighted some of the most important points in that report.

Umm, some of the links are unfortunately broken, but as I recall, having looked at it and mentioned it on here before, some 75% of the attacks were directed at foreign troops.

As the report points out, though this should be obvious to any halfway intelligent person, the reason the minority of civilian bombings yield a greater death total is because civilians are a "softer" target than highly organised, well armoured soldiers.

Also, consider the fact that quite apart the 3000 or so Americans killed, there have been some 47,000 injured&#33; 30,000 of these needed air transport&#33;


Now, to those of whom saying the resistance are just wild-eyed Islamist nutters who massacre civilian willy nilly, you need to realise you&#39;re holding to a position so reactionary and disconnected from reality that even US Intel has disavowed it&#33;

Phalanx
8th February 2007, 17:04
Now, to those of whom saying the resistance are just wild-eyed Islamist nutters who massacre civilian willy nilly, you need to realise you&#39;re holding to a position so reactionary and disconnected from reality that even US Intel has disavowed it&#33;

But how much of the resistance supports the working class cause? I&#39;m guessing the majority are Ba&#39;athist or Islamist with goals of either a secular authoritarian state or a religious authoritarian state.

I&#39;m not sure how much support we should give them if they support the hanging of homosexuals or stoning of women.

Vargha Poralli
8th February 2007, 18:17
Originally posted by Tatanka Iyotank
I&#39;m not sure how much support we should give them

I don&#39;t think our "support" really much matters to them. They will continue their resistance regardless we support them or not.



if they support the hanging of homosexuals or stoning of women.

I advice not to say something you don&#39;t know completely. Don&#39;t generalise all Muslims for something the nutters like Taliban did.

Phalanx
9th February 2007, 00:58
I don&#39;t think our "support" really much matters to them. They will continue their resistance regardless we support them or not.

Showing solidarity with one another can be quite motivating. They&#39;d continue to resist whether or not leftists support them, but I think every bit of support matters.


I advice not to say something you don&#39;t know completely. Don&#39;t generalise all Muslims for something the nutters like Taliban did.

People like Sadr come from the extreme religious right. It&#39;s not a stretch at all to say that if they gained power, they&#39;d form an ultra-religious nation like that of Iran.

grove street
9th February 2007, 05:19
Originally posted by Tatanka Iyotank+February 08, 2007 02:52 am--> (Tatanka Iyotank @ February 08, 2007 02:52 am)
grove [email protected] 08, 2007 01:16 am
The Baath party is pro secular. Even though Saddam was a brutal dictator he spent his whole life from trying to prevent Iraq from becoming an Islamic state. Under Saddam as long as you kept quite and did what you were told you had freedom of religion and some of the best womens rights in the Middle East.
While Saddam&#39;s reign brought women&#39;s rights to Iraq, he was also one of the most brutal dictators in the region. He oppressed workers all the same, so we shouldn&#39;t mourn his loss. [/b]
Of cause not, but you must admit that even though life under Saddam was harsh its now 10x worse.

RNK
9th February 2007, 09:28
The point is, anyone who fights under the flag of a religion is by nature opposed to freedom and liberty. They may fight our enemy but that does not make them our friends, and at the same time, an ally is different from a friend. Communist resistance throughout WW2 received help from the US and UK despite the obvious contradiction, and there&#39;s nothing wrong with this. Nor is there anything wrong in a temporary alliance, so long as it is just that -- temporary. I don&#39;t know about any of you but I fear the United States a lot more than I fear some Jihadists halfway around the world.

As for Saddam, in the 70s and 80s he purged Iraqi Communists and killed thousands of them. Supporting him makes about as much sense as Russian skinheads worshipping Hitler -- a man who wanted to see them all dead.

Comrade_Scott
9th February 2007, 13:04
The message was good and if it were any other group i would support it but i cant. because this one is just annother puppet of iran(that wat it looks like to me) and i cant support a state thatt wants to impose religion on its people and force them to do as they say. no dicttorships and no theocracys. but the message was good and we should all listen to it

YKTMX
9th February 2007, 13:56
I honestly can&#39;t believe people are discussing "theocracy" and "dictatorships" in relation to this.

First of all, the goal of the Iraqi resistance is simple and declared - a free and independent Iraq.

An outcome like this would deal a massive blow to American imperialism, possibly even bigger than that inflicted by the Vietnamese resistance.

So, to oppose the resistance on the grounds that a few of their fighters receive guns fron Iran and Syria is completely fucking ludicrous.

As for the Iraqi working class: of course we support their struggles against both imperialism and capitalism, and for socialism ultimately. But none of that is possible unless the national struggle for freedom is won first. It&#39;s not a working class position to be "ambivalent" about national resistance. The working class position is anti-imperialist, pro-resistance and socialist.

Can someone tell me one colony that&#39;s been "socialist" - apart from Cuba.

Comrade_Scott
9th February 2007, 14:37
im not im saying that i refuse to support them because they are after annother religious state ( not too sure bout them but untill i have proof.. clear proof to state the fact i wont support them) i may be viewd as a dumb fuck but so be it. i need proof before i throw my hat in the ring and suport them.

Phalanx
9th February 2007, 16:28
Originally posted by grove [email protected] 09, 2007 05:19 am
Of cause not, but you must admit that even though life under Saddam was harsh its now 10x worse.
Saddam&#39;s rule was much better than the current situation. However, if that&#39;s the type of regime Ba&#39;athists want back, it&#39;s not a progressive ideal.


First of all, the goal of the Iraqi resistance is simple and declared - a free and independent Iraq

But if the ultimate goal is to found a theocratic, oppressive Iraq, how is that something we should support?


So, to oppose the resistance on the grounds that a few of their fighters receive guns fron Iran and Syria is completely fucking ludicrous.

It doesn&#39;t matter where they get their weapons, but what they decide to do after they&#39;re done using them.

Dr. Rosenpenis
9th February 2007, 19:36
zampano, why can&#39;t you support non-leftists doing worthwhile things? Like resisting imperialism?

KC
9th February 2007, 20:07
zampano, why can&#39;t you support non-leftists doing worthwhile things? Like resisting imperialism?

Because resisting imperialism is only "worthwhile" when it&#39;s actually resisting imperialism (i.e. not a bourgeois/petty-bourgeois anti-imperialist movement; i.e. when it&#39;s a proletarian anti-imperialist movement) and when it&#39;s not reactionary anti-imperialism.

Dr. Rosenpenis
10th February 2007, 05:12
Isn&#39;t everyone fighting against the coalition presence in Iraq "actually resisting imperialism"?

Hate Is Art
10th February 2007, 18:17
Because resisting imperialism is only "worthwhile" when it&#39;s actually resisting imperialism (i.e. not a bourgeois/petty-bourgeois anti-imperialist movement; i.e. when it&#39;s a proletarian anti-imperialist movement) and when it&#39;s not reactionary anti-imperialism.

I&#39;m going to have to agree with Zampano here, why should we have any solidarity with reactionary movements, the enemy of our enemy is not nessescarily our friend, oui.

The working classes in Iraq will be no better off under a brutal theocratic dictatorship then under US control.


Isn&#39;t everyone fighting against the coalition presence in Iraq "actually resisting imperialism"?

But does this matter if they aren&#39;t fighting imperailism for the benefit of the proles.

KC
10th February 2007, 18:44
Isn&#39;t everyone fighting against the coalition presence in Iraq "actually resisting imperialism"?

The only way to resist imperialism itself is to perform proletarian revolution. Any other "anti-imperialist" movement is merely resisting the imperialism of only a certain section of the bourgeoisie. You can&#39;t resist only a section of the bourgeoisie and be anti-imperialist; you can&#39;t resist only some capital, because imperialism isn&#39;t simply the actions of some section of capitalists. Imperialism is a development of capitalism and the only way to do away with it is to overthrow capitalism itself and not just the capitalists actively involved in the actions. That stance is anti-materialist and unmarxist for the very reason that it treats imperialism as the conscious action of only a few people instead of realizing that imperialism is a necessary development of capitalism and won&#39;t go away until capitalism does.

Dr. Rosenpenis
11th February 2007, 04:59
Do you oppose movements of national liberation unless they have expressely communist ojectives?

KC
11th February 2007, 09:37
Do you oppose movements of national liberation unless they have expressely communist ojectives?

Depends on the circumstances. I&#39;d like to see you respond to my previous post.

Dr. Rosenpenis
11th February 2007, 15:33
The only way to resist imperialism itself is to perform proletarian revolution. Any other "anti-imperialist" movement is merely resisting the imperialism of only a certain section of the bourgeoisie

This would rule out all movements of national liberation which may not have expressely communist objectives. This would rule out movements against imperialist capitalists and in favor of a national bourgeoisie.


You can&#39;t resist only a section of the bourgeoisie and be anti-imperialist; you can&#39;t resist only some capital, because imperialism isn&#39;t simply the actions of some section of capitalists. Imperialism is a development of capitalism and the only way to do away with it is to overthrow capitalism itself and not just the capitalists actively involved in the actions.

You can resist a foreign ruling class in favor of a native ruling class. This what most Iraqi activists are fighting for.


That stance is anti-materialist and unmarxist for the very reason that it treats imperialism as the conscious action of only a few people instead of realizing that imperialism is a necessary development of capitalism and won&#39;t go away until capitalism does.

It&#39;s perfectly materialist, taking into account the transition of material conditions through economic development.

KC
11th February 2007, 19:15
This would rule out all movements of national liberation which may not have expressely communist objectives. This would rule out movements against imperialist capitalists and in favor of a national bourgeoisie.

Uh, yeah. That&#39;s the point.



You can resist a foreign ruling class in favor of a native ruling class. This what most Iraqi activists are fighting for.


Of course you can, but that doesn&#39;t make it progressive or revolutionary. What happens after this "anti-imperialist revolution" "succeeds"? What do you think this "native ruling class" will do? Do you think that they&#39;ll represent the interests of the working class? Or do you think that they&#39;ll actually start doing business with those members of the bourgeoisie they "opposed"? Even if they oppose the old imperialists, do you think that new imperialists won&#39;t spring up? Do you think that you can "stop" imperialism without destroying capitalism?

Hate Is Art
11th February 2007, 19:24
You can resist a foreign ruling class in favor of a native ruling class. This what most Iraqi activists are fighting for.

What would be the point then?

Dr. Rosenpenis
12th February 2007, 13:02
Capitalist economic development independent of an imperialist yoke. This is what pre-capitalist societies do to progress. We can&#39;t treat it like an advanced capitalist system because it&#39;s not. That would be anti-materialist.

KC
12th February 2007, 14:09
Capitalist economic development independent of an imperialist yoke. This is what pre-capitalist societies do to progress. We can&#39;t treat it like an advanced capitalist system because it&#39;s not. That would be anti-materialist.

So you think that anti-imperialism leads to capitalist development? What do you think about this (http://www.hekmat.public-archive.net/en/0110en.html)?

YKTMX
12th February 2007, 14:18
Originally posted by Hate Is [email protected] 11, 2007 07:24 pm

You can resist a foreign ruling class in favor of a native ruling class. This what most Iraqi activists are fighting for.

What would be the point then?
Only a gutless Western liberal, who knows nothing about oppression or exploitation, would say something as asinine as that.

Hate Is Art
12th February 2007, 18:33
That didn&#39;t answer my question though?

1. How am I &#39;gutless&#39;?
2. How do I know nothing about oppression and exploitation?

Phalanx
12th February 2007, 21:47
Only a gutless Western liberal, who knows nothing about oppression or exploitation

You?

Dr. Rosenpenis
13th February 2007, 01:04
Originally posted by Zampanò@February 12, 2007 11:09 am

Capitalist economic development independent of an imperialist yoke. This is what pre-capitalist societies do to progress. We can&#39;t treat it like an advanced capitalist system because it&#39;s not. That would be anti-materialist.

So you think that anti-imperialism leads to capitalist development? What do you think about this (http://www.hekmat.public-archive.net/en/0110en.html)?
Apparently the leading argument of that text is that the national bourgeoisie in Iran is neither progressive or anti-imperialist and would never constitute itself as an independent ruling class. Would you say that this is applicable to all or most developing countries? Most importantly, am I becoming a Trot?

YKTMX... anything to say?

Dr. Rosenpenis
26th March 2007, 02:39
i think this is interesting and we should talk about it more

Spirit of Spartacus
26th March 2007, 03:44
Originally posted by Dr. [email protected] 26, 2007 01:39 am
i think this is interesting and we should talk about it more
I agree.

Should I create a separate topic about it in the "Theory forum" ?