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chimx
3rd February 2007, 10:32
It is late, and I apologize in advance that makes the following less than clear. However, I would like to focus in on points that were mentioned in another thread on Marxism-Leninism, but never really addressed. That thread was meant to be a discussion on the issues of centralization as a distinguishing feature between Marx and Lenin. I would like this thread to focus more towards the idea of imperialism.

To do this we need to begin by returning to Marx. In his work Das Kapital, he describes the process for what he calls extra surplus-value:


If one hour’s labour is embodied in sixpence, a value of six shillings will be produced in a working-day of 12 hours. Suppose, that with the prevailing productiveness of labour, 12 articles are produced in these 12 hours. Let the value of the means of production used up in each article be sixpence. Under these circumstances, each article costs one shilling: sixpence for the value of the means of production, and sixpence for the value newly added in working with those means. Now let some one capitalist contrive to double the productiveness of labour, and to produce in the working-day of 12 hours, 24 instead of 12 such articles. The value of the means of production remaining the same, the value of each article will fall to ninepence, made up of sixpence for the value of the means of production and threepence for the value newly added by the labour. Despite the doubled productiveness of labour, the day’s labour creates, as before, a new value of six shillings and no more, which, however, is now spread over twice as many articles. Of this value each article now has embodied in it 1/24th, instead of 1/12th, threepence instead of sixpence; or, what amounts to the same thing, only half an hour’s instead of a whole hour’s labour-time, is now added to the means of production while they are being transformed into each article. The individual value of these articles is now below their social value; in other words, they have cost less labour-time than the great bulk of the same article produced under the average social conditions. Each article costs, on an average, one shilling, and represents 2 hours of social labour; but under the altered mode of production it costs only ninepence, or contains only 1½ hours’ labour. The real value of a commodity is, however, not its individual value, but its social value; that is to say, the real value is not measured by the labour-time that the article in each individual case costs the producer, but by the labour-time socially required for its production. If therefore, the capitalist who applies the new method, sells his commodity at its social value of one shilling, he sells it for threepence above its individual value, and thus realises an extra surplus-value of threepence.

Marx then makes the important citation of an older economist in his notes that says, "a man’s profit does not depend upon his command of the produce of other men’s labour, but upon his command of labour itself. If he can sell his goods at a higher price, while his workmen’s wages remain unaltered, he is clearly benefited."

Thus we are given a rather simple model for the creation of capital. Through industrial or technological advancement, one can increase gain extra surplus-value. Further, from his notes, this can also be obtained the commanding of labor. By exploiting economies with lower wages (not to mention cheaper resources) for the sale in industrial advanced economies, one can be assured greater surplus-value. That is to say, more capital.

Enter Lenin (well, almost)

Imperialism had been building since the 16th century. Mercantilism dominated global trade which gave way to colonization. In a sense, it is backwards login from what was illustrated by Marx in the passages above. Large nation-states established colonies. These colonies were required to trade with their colonial ruler. The ideology of mercantilism was that a sound economy rested upon increasing exports, which were made in the more advanced economy, to sell in colonial economies, which were obviously less advanced. It is in complete contradiction to what Marx wrote above, but persisted due to the lack of technological and industrial advances that really allowed for the creation of an extra surplus-value of notable size.

This changed during Marx's time with industrialization of Europe and the advancement of Europe's economies. Economists like Adam Smith would come to attack mercantilist theory. Slowly nation states moved away from export dominated economies and emphasized inter-state trade due to the intricacies of economies based on resources, productive capabilities, etc. of the given country. This led to the rise of imperialism which began in the 1850s or 1860s, but would eventually come to a head in the 1890s (such as the "race to Africa"), and eventually cause the outbreak of WWI due to arms build up between Britain and Germany, land disputes, treaty agreements, etc.

Lenin used this model of imperialism to advance his own thoughts on revolutionary theory. Because of imperialism, revolution could no longer occur in countries with an advanced capitalist economy because one of the aspects of imperialism was that they created extra surplus-value, which were in turn handed over to the "1st world" proletariat. Thus labor in advanced capitalists states would come to be defenders of capitalism because they reaped the partial benefits of it.

Instead, revolution had to first come from the exploited economies. Of course Lenin thought this would be Russia in 1916. Probably because he is Russian (i'm only half joking). For communism to come to fruition, socialist states would be necessitated within the former exploited territories of capitalist powers. If exploited economies stopped providing means for advanced capitalist economies to obtain extra surplus-value, labor in the advanced capitalist countries would stop received the perks of living the good capitalist life, and be forced to turn to revolution for their own class interests. Thus, communism would develop.

My problems.

If I have one gripe about hearing about Marxist-Leninist thought today, it is that it is coming from a person living in an advanced capitalist economy. Lenin's inheritors still adhere to a revolutionary program designed for, what Lenin called, a "superexploited" economy. If you live in the United States, Britain, Korea, Japan, etc., you are a dominate force to be reckoned with.

Marx made clear what he believed to be a good model for advanced capitalist states following the Paris Commune (see my other thread). He favored decentralization of a unified proletarian body. While some argue (and it is still debatable IMO) that the material conditions in Russia necessitated Lenin's centralized program, how could one at all apply Russia's material conditions in 1917 to the U.S. or the U.K. today? It is a complete logical fallacy--an anachronistic folly.

Other points I would like to hear people defend: we no longer live in an age of political imperialism. Financial capitalism is the dominate economic model. Why do you feel that during a period of easy access to financial revenue for the development of industrial production, bourgeois elements in society would not put forth efforts in their own community or country to monopolize on labor and create capital for themselves? Why do you feel a bourgeois "revolution" is impossible in a post-industrial society? History certainly points to examples of it occurring. Just look to South Korea in the 1970s and its development into a full liberal democracy by the late 1980s. Other examples are easy to list.

If, as contemporary history has shown, bourgeois revolution and industrialization remains possible, why is Lenin's model of imperialism at all relevant to contemporary politics?

And lastly, and perhaps just as importantly, why do you feel that proletarians in advanced capitalist economies are impotent to enact change, as Lenin believed? How do you apologize the uprisings of '68 or '36 with your ideology?

Again, it is 3 a.m. and I am tired. I'm sorry if I bungled your views with my synopsis of Leninist and Marxist thought. Please feel free to correct any errors, but at the same time, I would love to here intelligent rebuttals to my questions.

Whitten
3rd February 2007, 11:42
Marx made clear what he believed to be a good model for advanced capitalist states following the Paris Commune (see my other thread). He favored decentralization of a unified proletarian body. While some argue (and it is still debatable IMO) that the material conditions in Russia necessitated Lenin's centralized program, how could one at all apply Russia's material conditions in 1917 to the U.S. or the U.K. today? It is a complete logical fallacy--an anachronistic folly.

Marx believed the revolution would be completly different in changing material conditions. The suggestions he made at the time would have been fine applied to mid 19th century England or Germany, but not in early 20th century Russia, not in Africa, and they will have changed significantly for 21st century England and Germany, along with all aspects of the revolutionary strategy.

You also make the assumption that most Marxist-Leninists believe in implementing a clone-state of the USSR in their respective developed countries. Most, if not all, Marxist-Leninists still maintain that the revolution will be led by the third world, and could easily point to historical evidence to support that theory. (You may argue about the legitimacy of revolutions in Russia or Cuba but they are closer than Western Europe and North America have ever got).

We dont believe there a one type fits all solution.


Other points I would like to hear people defend: we no longer live in an age of political imperialism. Financial capitalism is the dominate economic model. Why do you feel that during a period of easy access to financial revenue for the development of industrial production, bourgeois elements in society would not put forth efforts in their own community or country to monopolize on labor and create capital for themselves? Why do you feel a bourgeois "revolution" is impossible in a post-industrial society? History certainly points to examples of it occurring. Just look to South Korea in the 1970s and its development into a full liberal democracy by the late 1980s. Other examples are easy to list.

Economic Imperialism still dominates most of Africa, South America and Aisia. It is unbenificial to the international Bourgeois to grant more and more nation's proletariat the privilages of the first world. Its not impossible for a nation ascend from economicly imperialized to bourgeois-democratic, however it is very dificult and unlikely. Much the same as how it isnt impossible for an orphan left starving on the streets to rise through society to become the worlds richest man.


And lastly, and perhaps just as importantly, why do you feel that proletarians in advanced capitalist economies are impotent to enact change, as Lenin believed? How do you apologize the uprisings of '68 or '36 with your ideology?

They can cause change, and the marxist-leninists in developed countries are doing what little they can to work towards it. It would, however, not be realistic to expect the proletariat of the developed world to be as significant a revolutionary force as the ultra-exploited proletariate of the oppressed world.

Luís Henrique
3rd February 2007, 11:57
Originally posted by chimx's interpretation of Lenin's ideas
Because of imperialism, revolution could no longer occur in countries with an advanced capitalist economy because one of the aspects of imperialism was that they created extra surplus-value, which were in turn handed over to the "1st world" proletariat.

This is patently false. Lenin never said, or wrote, that revolution could no longer occur in advanced capitalist countries. Much on the contrary, he always held that the success of revolution in backwards Russia depended directly on the success of revolution in the "first world".

And the very ridiculous notion that imperialism creates "extra-surplus value" to be "handed" to the first world proletariat comes much later than Lenin. It is based in a complete lack of understanding of what "surplus value" means, a misunderstanding Lenin, whatever his many other mistakes, never cozied with.

But, of course, the historical, real character of Lenin doesn't have much importance. "Important" is the mythological figure that both Leninists and anti-Leninists wave at each others, in their straw-men wars. Who cares about reality?


Again, it is 3 a.m. and I am tired.

Well, that's a valid excuse... ;)

Luís Henrique

Luís Henrique
3rd February 2007, 12:26
Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 10:32 am
If you live in the United States, Britain, Korea, Japan, etc., you are a dominate force to be reckoned with.
No. If you own means of production in United States, Britain, Korea, or Japan, then you are a dominant force to be reckoned with. Also, if you own means of production in Brazil, Indonesia, Kenya or Swaziland, you are a dominant force to be reckoned with.

It is basic Marxism. Thinking otherwise, even in "Marxist" drappings (like MIM, for instance) is third-positionism, just so.


While some argue (and it is still debatable IMO) that the material conditions in Russia necessitated Lenin's centralized program,

Not only it was, and is, debatable, but the debate was started under Lenin himself - his adoptance of the SR agrarian program, or the NEP, show clearly that he wasn't ideologically fixed in the idea of centralisation.


how could one at all apply Russia's material conditions in 1917 to the U.S. or the U.K. today? It is a complete logical fallacy--an anachronistic folly.

As it is also an anachronistic folly to apply such conditions to today's Iran, Nicaragua or Uganda. But to accuse post-Lenin leninists of doing such seems not only contrary to facts, but to your own previous line of reasoning: because what you have been claiming is that "leninism" is based in a wrong distinction between "first" and "third" worlds, namely in that workers in the first world would no longer be considered revolutionaries by "Leninists".

So, which of them is it? Do "Leninist" make a completely debased, and anti-Marxist, distinction between first and third worlds, or do they mechanically identify modern first world to pre-revolutionary Russia?


Other points I would like to hear people defend: we no longer live in an age of political imperialism.

No?


Financial capitalism is the dominate economic model.

And why is this in any sence opposed to imperialism?


Why do you feel a bourgeois "revolution" is impossible in a post-industrial society?

What do you mean with the phrase 'bourgeois "revolution"'?


History certainly points to examples of it occurring. Just look to South Korea in the 1970s and its development into a full liberal democracy by the late 1980s. Other examples are easy to list.

To the extent that this is true, it would be necessary to point out that South Korea was certainly not a post-industrial society in the seventies!

Also, any capitalist country knows political changes, sometimes even violent political changes; and some of these are proudly called "revolutions" by their protagonists. But that does not make them so.


If, as contemporary history has shown, bourgeois revolution and industrialization remains possible, why is Lenin's model of imperialism at all relevant to contemporary politics?

Because, even in Korea, third world industrialisation is necessarily subordinated to imperialism.


And lastly, and perhaps just as importantly, why do you feel that proletarians in advanced capitalist economies are impotent to enact change, as Lenin believed? How do you apologize the uprisings of '68 or '36 with your ideology?

Lenin didn't believe that. That is a historical fact; repeating otherwise a thousand times won't make it different.

In 1936, Spain was not "first world" or an "advanced capitalist economy" by no stretch of wild, wandering, twisted imagination.

Proletarian revolution is not bourgeois revolution; it takes a lot more of patience, organisation, grassroots work - all those non-glamorous things people like to call "reformist" - and a lot less bravado, braggery, martyrology, and "self-sacrifice" - all those things people usually associate with revolution, because they fit the bourgeois notion of "revolution".


I would love to here intelligent rebuttals to my questions.

Whether it was intelligent or not, remains open to debate, but that was what I was able to come up with.

Luís Henrique

chimx
3rd February 2007, 20:16
If you live in the United States, Britain, Korea, Japan, etc., you are a dominate force to be reckoned with.
No. If you own means of production in United States, Britain, Korea, or Japan, then you are a dominant force to be reckoned with. Also, if you own means of production in Brazil, Indonesia, Kenya or Swaziland, you are a dominant force to be reckoned with.

That was poor wording on my part. I mean, that following Leninist theory, due to imperial exploitation, proletarians in advanced capitalist countries reap the benefits of capitalism for the sole reason of living in an advanced capitalist country. When speaking of imperialism Lenin said, "monopoly yields superprofits, i.e., a surplus of profits over and above the capitalist profits that are normal and customary all over the world. The capitalists can devote a part (and not a small one, at that!) of these superprofits to bribe their own workers, to create something like an alliance . . . between the workers of the given nation and their capitalists against the other countries."


his adoptance of the SR agrarian program, or the NEP, show clearly that he wasn't ideologically fixed in the idea of centralisation.

I would prefer not to fixate on this issue, but it had been my understanding that the SR program simply mirrored that of the Bolsheviks, thus why peasants initially want to support the SRs over the Bolsheviks. The NEP was also obviously later and only the result of mass discontent as is evidenced by Krondstat. The options were limited: decentralize or unravel.


And the very ridiculous notion that imperialism creates "extra-surplus value" to be "handed" to the first world proletariat comes much later than Lenin. It is based in a complete lack of understanding of what "surplus value" means, a misunderstanding Lenin, whatever his many other mistakes, never cozied with.

See the above citation from Lenin, written in 1916. He also says, "The bourgeoisie of an imperialist “Great” Power can economically bribe the upper strata of 'its' workers by spending on this a hundred million or so francs a year, for its superprofits most likely amount to about a thousand million." While only the upper echelon of workers may have been "bribed" in 1916, given the comparative living standards of workers in the "Great Powers" today, it seems like capital has trickled down to them as well. How many companies give their workers stock options? How many invest in mutual funds, property, etc.?


This is patently false. Lenin never said, or wrote, that revolution could no longer occur in advanced capitalist countries. Much on the contrary, he always held that the success of revolution in backwards Russia depended directly on the success of revolution in the "first world".

Right right. I didn't mean to state it as a definite. Rather, Lenin wrote, as I have cited, that because the proletariat of an advanced capitalist country had been bought off, or "bribed" to use lenin's term, their interest in seeing capitalism maintained is higher than that of the proletariat in the exploited country. If revolution in the exploited countries interferes with the process for bribery, i.e. upsets the imperialist process, then revolution will occur in the dominate countries. This is why Lenin felt that Germany would follow Russia in revolution.


To the extent that this is true, it would be necessary to point out that South Korea was certainly not a post-industrial society in the seventies!

The 1970s is when Korea began its industrialization process. I mention Korea because I think it is a particularly good example. Korea was under direct imperial rule from 1910 until 1945 by Japan, followed by American governance. After all of this, Korea was able to industrialize and adopt liberal democratic institutions. It has gone from being one of the poorest countries in the world to being one of the richest economies in the world, in a matter of 50 years no less. Right now it is in talks with the United States over a free trade agreement, and it is really calling the shots. They have worked themselves into an economic position where they can easily challenge the whims of "imperialist" hegemony.


And why is this in any sence opposed to imperialism?

Because imperialism during Lenin's time was primarily noted as obtain extra surplus value through the movement of resources and commodity. But today we live in a post-industrial capitalist framework where the ownership of production is not the sole factor in the creation of personal capital. Anyone with access to a computer can invest, move capital, and create extra surplus value. Smaller economies do this. Descriptions such as an imperialist nation exploits an impoverished nation no longer suffice. It is a complicated network of capital exchange.



I think answers to most of the other questions you asked can obtained in my above reply, though I didn't reply to them specifically. I would rather try to keep the discussion semi-focused though.

Again, I apologize for my poor wording. It was late.

Hit The North
4th February 2007, 01:50
See the above citation from Lenin, written in 1916. He also says, "The bourgeoisie of an imperialist “Great” Power can economically bribe the upper strata of 'its' workers by spending on this a hundred million or so francs a year, for its superprofits most likely amount to about a thousand million." While only the upper echelon of workers may have been "bribed" in 1916, given the comparative living standards of workers in the "Great Powers" today, it seems like capital has trickled down to them as well. How many companies give their workers stock options? How many invest in mutual funds, property, etc.?


Sorry, comrade, but you really are accepting a lot of bourgeois propaganda here. I mean, you're espousing a Reagan/Thatcherite trickle down theory!

The real test of how much the proletariat of the big Capitalist countries benefit from "super-profits" or how much these are monopolized by the capitalist class is an examination of the actual distribution of wealth within these countries. So, as far as the UK is concerned, the gap between rich a poor is wider now than it was in 1976. In 2003, the wealthiest 1 per cent owned approximately a fifth of the UK's marketable wealth while half the population shared only 7 per cent of total wealth.

Take a look at the UK government's own statistics HERE (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=2&Pos=6&ColRank=1&Rank=160)

This idea that our benevolent bourgeoisie are going out of their way to hand over their hard earned (and I'm being ironic here, obviously) profit to us is - well it makes you sound like a Tory!

Every benefit which 1st world workers have now or will ever have in this lousy system are the result of hard fought battles - forced upon our masters in contradiction to their interests.

Severian
4th February 2007, 08:51
Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 04:32 am
Lenin used this model of imperialism to advance his own thoughts on revolutionary theory. Because of imperialism, revolution could no longer occur in countries with an advanced capitalist economy because one of the aspects of imperialism was that they created extra surplus-value, which were in turn handed over to the "1st world" proletariat.
What is this bullshit? Lenin did not believe anything so idiotic. Apparently you do think everyone in the First World is a "dominant force": but this crazy MiMite bullshit has been previously refuted in threads where the crazy MiMites raised it.


If revolution in the exploited countries interferes with the process for bribery, i.e. upsets the imperialist process, then revolution will occur in the dominate countries. This is why Lenin felt that Germany would follow Russia in revolution.

Have you actually read anything by Lenin? Apparently not.

No, obviously the Russian revolution could not so quickly, or by itself, end imperialist superprofits in Germany.

The reason Lenin thought Germany and other countries would have revolutions soon, was the impact of the war, and the immediate political example of the Russian Revolution.

And he was right. A revolutionary wave did occur across Europe. It's just that most of them were put down. That is not the kind of thing which can always be predicted in advance.

Now, later, by 1919 or so, you start seeing more of the idea that uprisings in the colonies are important, among other reasons, to interfere with the "bribing" of the workers in the imperialist countries. And that if there was no colonial revolt, there would be no possibility of revolution in the imperialist countries either.

But guess what? There's been plenty of colonial revolt, and also the working class in the imperialist countries is experiencing prolonged assault on our standard of living.


Other points I would like to hear people defend: we no longer live in an age of political imperialism. Financial capitalism is the dominate economic model.

And financial capitalism is precisely how Lenin defined imperialism.

I could go on, but bottom line: read something by Lenin before trying to refute him.

Luís Henrique
4th February 2007, 12:57
Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 08:51 am
No, obviously the Russian revolution could not so quickly, or by itself, end imperialist superprofits in Germany.

The reason Lenin thought Germany and other countries would have revolutions soon, was the impact of the war, and the immediate political example of the Russian Revolution.
There seems to be a wave of neo-economicism here, in which the specifically politic nature and consequences of political actions are misregarded. Particularly, I resent the idea that the relative political strenght of social classes can be reduced to the level of economical/technological advancement of capitalism.

Is this the trend in the first world, outside the internet, too, or is this a particular RevLeft phenomenon?

Luís Henrique

Luís Henrique
4th February 2007, 13:46
Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 08:16 pm
That was poor wording on my part. I mean, that following Leninist theory, due to imperial exploitation, proletarians in advanced capitalist countries reap the benefits of capitalism for the sole reason of living in an advanced capitalist country. When speaking of imperialism Lenin said, "monopoly yields superprofits, i.e., a surplus of profits over and above the capitalist profits that are normal and customary all over the world. The capitalists can devote a part (and not a small one, at that!) of these superprofits to bribe their own workers, to create something like an alliance . . . between the workers of the given nation and their capitalists against the other countries."
Well, it seems to be very poor wording from Lenin himself, here.

Supposing that the first world bourgeoisie could extract enough surplus-value from their abroad ventures, not only to maintain their levels of capitalist accumulation, not only to maintain their high living standards, but also to distribute such surplus-value among first-world workers... then why would they keep factories functioning in their own countries?

The only possible answer is, because those the workers on those factories still produce... surplus-value!

(there is even practical counterproof: in Kuwait, where industrial and service work is performed by foreign workers, the lower layers of the Kuwaiti aboriginal society are "proletarians" in the ancient, Roman sence: parasites that are fed by the State, but do not produce any wealth themselves. Nothing similar can be observed in the first world.)

To make some sence of this "bribing the working class with surplus value extracted abroad" thing, it must be reduced to a much more modest idea: that the imperialist superprofits allowed the bourgeoisie to make more concessions to its local proletariat, whenever it fought to attain such concessions, thus, presumably, reducing the surplus-value rate in first world countries. But "reducing" is a far cry from "abolishing", not to talk about reversing it in favour of workers...

Even this, however, is not a good account of the facts. Because what happened was clearly specialisation of production, with the labour-intensive trades being "exported" to third world, while the first world got increasingly tech-intensive. Which means, the surplus-value rate in the first world raised accordingly, just in the "relative" way. Which, of course, is the only way to explain why home-based capital in the first world did not flee abroad, in sought of higher profits.

So, if Lenin held different ideas, yes, he was wrong. But did he?


I would prefer not to fixate on this issue, but it had been my understanding that the SR program simply mirrored that of the Bolsheviks, thus why peasants initially want to support the SRs over the Bolsheviks.

The Bolshevik program was the orthodox socialist program: collective ownership of agricultural land. The SR program was the distribution of land among peasants, family-wise. That was the program implemented by the Bolsheviks in 1917-18, and it was only due to that that they were able to remain in power during the Civil War.


The NEP was also obviously later and only the result of mass discontent as is evidenced by Krondstat.

Yes, as a reaction to "War Communism" and its extorsions from the peasantry.

It is curious that people can believe Kronstadt was an example of radical socialism, while at the same time relating it to a reaction against "centralism" as embodied in "War Communism".


See the above citation from Lenin, written in 1916. He also says, "The bourgeoisie of an imperialist “Great” Power can economically bribe the upper strata of 'its' workers by spending on this a hundred million or so francs a year, for its superprofits most likely amount to about a thousand million."

I interpret such "upper strata" as meaning the unionist bureaucracy, not the best paid workers in general. If I am wrong about that, then certainly Lenin was wrong about what he was saying, as discussed above.


While only the upper echelon of workers may have been "bribed" in 1916, given the comparative living standards of workers in the "Great Powers" today, it seems like capital has trickled down to them as well.

Do they still have to work for a living? It seems so.


How many companies give their workers stock options? How many invest in mutual funds, property, etc.?

How many companies fail to extract surplus-value in the first world? That is, how many companies pay their workers the full value of the commodities they produce, or more?

If they do so, is it possible to still call them "capitalist" companies?


Right right. I didn't mean to state it as a definite. Rather, Lenin wrote, as I have cited, that because the proletariat of an advanced capitalist country had been bought off, or "bribed" to use lenin's term, their interest in seeing capitalism maintained is higher than that of the proletariat in the exploited country. If revolution in the exploited countries interferes with the process for bribery, i.e. upsets the imperialist process, then revolution will occur in the dominate countries.

Lenin's reasoning, for what I can remember, was that Revolution would erupt at the point in which imperialism was weaker, not at the point in which it was more profitable or brutal. This was the reason he found Russia was the place where it would start; it was certainly not a developed capitalist country like England or Germany, but it was also not a colony or semi-colony like most of the third world.

But to me he seems to have been always convinced that the revolution would be worlwide, or it would be not. The place where it would start being a secondary consideration. (Yes, he may have been influenced by the fact that he was Russian. It is still better than some revolutionaries, who believe it will start in Switzerland if they live in Malaysia, or that it will start in Malaysia if they live in Switzerland.)



The 1970s is when Korea began its industrialization process. I mention Korea because I think it is a particularly good example.

I am sorry, but you gave South Korea as an example of a bourgeois revolution in a post-industrial society. Whether this is a problem of wording, I don't know, but, in my view, South Korea was not a post-industrial society, and, so, cannot be an example of a bourgeois revolution in a post-industrial society.


Korea was under direct imperial rule from 1910 until 1945 by Japan, followed by American governance. After all of this, Korea was able to industrialize and adopt liberal democratic institutions.

Rather, it was forced to do so.

The Americans forced a land reform in South Korea (as well as in Taiwan). This is remarkably distinct from their behaviour elsewhere, particularly in Latin America, where they have been always good allies of the landed oligarchies. I can't see other explanation for such peculiar behaviour than a strategic move related to the need to isolate China and the Soviet Union from the Pacific.


Because imperialism during Lenin's time was primarily noted as obtain extra surplus value through the movement of resources and commodity. But today we live in a post-industrial capitalist framework where the ownership of production is not the sole factor in the creation of personal capital.

No, we do not live in a "post-industrial" capitalist framework. Surplus value is still generated in the production of goods, and the bourgeois talks of "service economies" are delusional and ideological.


Anyone with access to a computer can invest, move capital, and create extra surplus value.

I have access to this computer from which I am typing. And, no, I can't invest, move capital, or create extra surplus value.

Only human labour can create surplus value; my own labour cannot create surplus value, except for my employer, and I cannot command other people's labour except if I own means of production, which is not the case.


Smaller economies do this.

What does "smaller economies" mean, in this context? Smaller capitals? Smaller national economies?

I don't think so; we are in the Jurassic period of capitalism. The bigger the critter, the most succesful it is.


Descriptions such as an imperialist nation exploits an impoverished nation no longer suffice.

Well, they did never suffice. Any society, be it that of an imperialist nation or that of a third world hell-hole, is driven mainly by its internal forces, which means, by its internal class struggle.


It is a complicated network of capital exchange.

It is, and it has always been, but it doesn't change basic facts. Some people own means of production, other people don't. Some nations export capital, others import it. Some economies are diversified producers of many different industrialised products, other economies are sellers of a few, sometimes just only one, primary products.

Luís Henrique

chimx
4th February 2007, 20:11
Have you actually read anything by Lenin?

Well I certainly don't understand the needless hostility. I don't adhere to Leninism, but I certainly have read my fair share of him, including his lesser works on imperialism, from which I have given citations to his idea of proletarian "bribery".

--


Well, it seems to be very poor wording from Lenin himself, here. . .

To make some sence of this "bribing the working class with surplus value extracted abroad" thing, it must be reduced to a much more modest idea: that the imperialist superprofits allowed the bourgeoisie to make more concessions to its local proletariat, whenever it fought to attain such concessions, thus, presumably, reducing the surplus-value rate in first world countries. But "reducing" is a far cry from "abolishing", not to talk about reversing it in favour of workers. . .

So, if Lenin held different ideas, yes, he was wrong.

I don't know where you got the term "abolishing," because I never said it, nor did I cite a passage by Lenin that cited it. I think you hit the nail on the head of what Lenin was trying to say (and I was trying to convey) when you mention the idea of concessions. But I don't agree that one has to necessarily fight for concessions anymore. We have grown up around such concessions for so long they have come to be expected, at least to some degree. I work roof construction, which is mindless non-specialized work (actually i do different types of roofing that are both non-specialized and specialized, but for the sake of discussion...), but I still pull in a wage that is significantly higher than my foreign counterpart. My friend is a barrister at Starbucks™. He works 20 hours a week but is given full benefits and stock options in the company. Neither he or any of his coworkers fought for any concessions.

If you feel that if what Lenin said of "bribery" he meant "concessions", you would still feel is he was incorrect?

p.s., the citations above are not from Lenin's massive work on imperialism, but as a refutation to Kautsky's writings on imperialism, which he had undertaken a few years prior to Lenin, called Imperialism and the Split in Socialism (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/oct/x01.htm). It was written after his book on imperialism.

Luís Henrique
4th February 2007, 22:16
Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 08:11 pm
I don't know where you got the term "abolishing," because I never said it, nor did I cite a passage by Lenin that cited it.
Indeed, but "bribery" gives me the impression of actually gaining something, not just having your rate of exploitation reduced.


I think you hit the nail on the head of what Lenin was trying to say (and I was trying to convey) when you mention the idea of concessions. But I don't agree that one has to necessarily fight for concessions anymore. We have grown up around such concessions for so long they have come to be expected, at least to some degree. I work roof construction, which is mindless non-specialized work (actually i do different types of roofing that are both non-specialized and specialized, but for the sake of discussion...), but I still pull in a wage that is significantly higher than my foreign counterpart. My friend is a barrister at Starbucks™. He works 20 hours a week but is given full benefits and stock options in the company. Neither he or any of his coworkers fought for any concessions.

No, but if other people hadn't fought for them in the past, they most certainly wouldn't enjoy them today.


If you feel that if what Lenin said of "bribery" he meant "concessions", you would still feel is he was incorrect?

Yes. As I stated above, relative surplus value raised sharply in the "first world" during the XX century. Simply put, if the bourgeoisie extracted less wealth from first world labourers than from third worl ones, capital would move towards third world until equilibrium was again reached.

The idea of a parasitary first world working class is just plain wrong; if Lenin had such ideas, he was wrong too.

Luís Henrique

Severian
4th February 2007, 23:23
Originally posted by Luís Henrique+February 04, 2007 06:57 am--> (Luís Henrique @ February 04, 2007 06:57 am) There seems to be a wave of neo-economicism here, in which the specifically politic nature and consequences of political actions are misregarded. Particularly, I resent the idea that the relative political strenght of social classes can be reduced to the level of economical/technological advancement of capitalism.

Is this the trend in the first world, outside the internet, too, or is this a particular RevLeft phenomenon?

Luís Henrique [/b]
I've never encountered this exaggerated version of it outside the internet. I think Redstar2000 had a lot to do with its prevalence on this board. A lot of mentally lazy people took him as a guru since his simplified stuff is easy to learn and repeat.


Originally posted by [email protected]
Well I certainly don't understand the needless hostility.

Because you're attributing your own ridiculous ideas to Lenin, who's dead and can't defend himself? Trying to pass off complete nonsense as some new theoretical revelation?

None of those Lenin quotes indicate any idea that the capitalist are returning all the surplus-value extracted from First-World workers - just part of it. Luis has done a good job of explaining why it would be ridiculous to suggest that all of it is returned.

And of course the whole record of Lenin's political actions makes it obvious he didn't think revolution in the First World is impossible.


Luis
But to me he seems to have been always convinced that the revolution would be worlwide, or it would be not. The place where it would start being a secondary consideration. (Yes, he may have been influenced by the fact that he was Russian. It is still better than some revolutionaries, who believe it will start in Switzerland if they live in Malaysia, or that it will start in Malaysia if they live in Switzerland.)

Yeah, exactly. Lenin, like every revolutionary worthy of the name, tried to help make a revolution where he was....he didn't try to come up with "theoretical" rationalizations for claiming revolution was impossible.

chimx
4th February 2007, 23:39
Because you're attributing your own ridiculous ideas to Lenin, who's dead and can't defend himself? Trying to pass off complete nonsense as some new theoretical revelation?

Perhaps you misunderstand the purpose of me even making this thread. I posted my thoughts from the information I have read, hoping that adherents of Leninism would refute my understanding of it. I'm not trying to force some theoretical revelation down anybodies throat. I'm here to discuss and learn. Why don't you instead direct me to citations that are contradictory to the citations I have posted?


None of those Lenin quotes indicate any idea that the capitalist are returning all the surplus-value extracted from First-World workers - just part of it.

I am confused yet again. I don't recall ever saying that they were returning "all" of it. If I did I misspoke. I am saying that Lenin thought capitalists "bought off" workers with their surplus capital.

Severian
5th February 2007, 01:05
Originally posted by chimx+February 04, 2007 05:39 pm--> (chimx @ February 04, 2007 05:39 pm) Perhaps you misunderstand the purpose of me even making this thread. I posted my thoughts from the information I have read, hoping that adherents of Leninism would refute my understanding of it. I'm not trying to force some theoretical revelation down anybodies throat. [/b]
Really. 'Cause earlier you made a lot of confident-sounding proclamations about what Lenin thought. For example:


[email protected] 03, 2007 04:32 am
Lenin used this model of imperialism to advance his own thoughts on revolutionary theory. Because of imperialism, revolution could no longer occur in countries with an advanced capitalist economy because one of the aspects of imperialism was that they created extra surplus-value, which were in turn handed over to the "1st world" proletariat. Thus labor in advanced capitalists states would come to be defenders of capitalism because they reaped the partial benefits of it.

But in any case, you have to pull your own weight in discussing and learning. Other people can't "educate" you if you're unwillling to educate yourself. A good place to start is by really trying to read and understand overall political ideas, not just yank sentences out of context. Reading Marxist books should not be an excercise in Bibilical exegesis - Citation vs citation.


I don't recall ever saying that they were returning "all" of it. If I did I misspoke. I am saying that Lenin thought capitalists "bought off" workers with their surplus capital.

OK, you're right. I mistakenly assumed you were adopting MiM's economic "analysis" along with their bizarre interpretation of Lenin's political conclusions.

'Course, Luis made an interesting point about how it's wrong either relatively or absolutely: "As I stated above, relative surplus value raised sharply in the "first world" during the XX century. Simply put, if the bourgeoisie extracted less wealth from first world labourers than from third worl ones, capital would move towards third world until equilibrium was again reached.

The idea of a parasitary first world working class is just plain wrong; if Lenin had such ideas, he was wrong too."

Now, in the early Communist International some people talked about the idea that potentially you might get a situation with a parasitic First World "working class" if there was no colonial revolution. In Lenin's Imperialism he quotes somebody who had the idea that all manufacturing might move to the colonies. But obviously that's not what's happened - there was a tremendous upsurge in the colonial revolution beginning immediately after WWI and the Russian Revolution. And continuing in different forms ever since.

The early Communist International was trying to develop an integrated strategy for worldwide revolution; and we need to develop one today, also. Not treat First World and Third World revolution as if they were opposed.

chimx
5th February 2007, 02:45
S:

Really. 'Cause earlier you made a lot of confident-sounding proclamations about what Lenin thought. For example: (etc.)

Well as I tried to apologize when I wrote this, I was tired. In retrospect you are right in saying that it is wrong for me to say that it "was no longer possible." That was an exaggeration. If I could retype it it would be something along the lines as "less likely," or something to that effect.

In any case, I have read the essay in question on imperialism by Lenin. I have also read a great deal more by Lenin than, I would wager, the average non-Leninist does. My reading isn't complete, as I'm sure yours isn't. If anything can be said for both Marx and Lenin, they were prolific authors. If you would have preferred an addendum to the original post that the preceeding solely exists as my understanding of Lenin's views on imperialism based on my own readings and my discussions with self-affirmed Leninists, than please consider this it. One of my largest annoyances with forum discussion, especially of a political nature, is that very rarely is it actually meant as discussion, but instead as an attempt to convince others of your thoughts. I would prefer that anything I bring to the table be the former.

L:

Indeed, but "bribery" gives me the impression of actually gaining something, not just having your rate of exploitation reduced.
Ah, I can see your point. At the very least it was confusing wording.


No, but if other people hadn't fought for them in the past, they most certainly wouldn't enjoy them today.
Right, and that is what I'm saying. How many generations grown up in a culture that has honored those concessions? It has come to be a regular expectation.


Simply put, if the bourgeoisie extracted less wealth from first world labourers than from third worl ones, capital would move towards third world until equilibrium was again reached.
But doesn't this assume that all capital is derived from shippable commodity? What of the massive construction industry? One has to bare in mind the other factors outside of labor itself. The feasibility and cost of making new facilities for production, laws and cultures which could get in the way, etc. etc. Are you slipping into an economic determinist attitude towards with specifics?

However I can understand what you are saying generally. But isn't the exportation of labor and factories a real issue that people are continuing to deal with today? Anyone that's seen an obnoxious Michael Moore film knows about the auto industry in Flint Michigan.

Despite all this, I find it interesting that at least two of you are pointing to the errors of Lenin, albeit for different reasons than I had intended.

Severian
8th February 2007, 04:12
Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 08:45 pm
Despite all this, I find it interesting that at least two of you are pointing to the errors of Lenin, albeit for different reasons than I had intended.
Oh, BS. Luis and I have said: If Lenin said that, he was wrong.

I find it improbable that Lenin intended to say anything of the sort, 'cause he wasn't an idiot. But discussing whether the idea's accurate is more important that exegesizing the works of Lenin.

Luís Henrique
8th February 2007, 13:14
Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 02:45 am
Despite all this, I find it interesting that at least two of you are pointing to the errors of Lenin, albeit for different reasons than I had intended.
I am very critical of Lenin. But I don't like straw men; when I criticise Lenin, I try to be sure that I am criticising his ideas, not some distorted image Leninists or Anti-Leninists have of them.

That should be done not only regarding Lenin, but regarding any philosopher or politician. We don't need to be Stalinist to debunk the "engineered Ukrainian famine" tale, nor we need to be tories to point out that Churchill's policies concerning Hitler were different from Chamberlain's.

Luís Henrique