What is Marxism?

[Connolly]

Just something that I find sounds odd from the intro at marxists.org.


We are here to give you a starting point, a grounding in what Marxism is about. A Marxist has a certain kind of practice, a way of living and working, that we call being a Communist. A Marxist's thought is based on this daily practice, a science of logic called Dialectics.

http://marxists.org/subject/students/index.htm


Now, If I were someone who hadnt ever heard of Marxism, and were a complete newcomer, looking for an introduction, id think from reading this - RELIGION/CULT.

Its what id imagine reading an intro to buddhism would be like "a practice, a way of living and working, a way of thinking, that we call being a buddhist".

For one, I dont see how being a marxist is necesarily "a way of working", nor a "way of living" - or even a practice.

Marxists "work" like anyone else, and generally live like everyone else.

And to work like a Marxist - in the sense that I believe he's taking about - you dont have to be a Marxist..


I just found that line a little sickening and religious like - and certainly not suitable for someone who knows nothing about Marxism.

What do you think?

[The Grey Blur]

Well we do...we're part of the masses of the working-class yet at the same time we live differently since we are class conscious.

And on the "work" part I just think it means how we work towards revolution.

Don't worry, n00bs to teh comm-u-nism don't go on marx.org anyway, it's a literature archive rather than an introductory website.

BTW - Is that a quotation from Marx himself?

[Connolly]

yet at the same time we live differently since we are class conscious

No, I dont agree with that. There are lots of Marxists who live like ordinary people and do not participate in "revolutionary" activities.

There is nothing distinguishing a Marxist from the ordinary person other than their political views and beliefs. Many dont live differently.


And on the "work" part I just think it means how we work towards revolution.

Personally, I dont think thats what he meant by work. In my view, he meant maybe being more politically driven in unions and the likes within a workplace, being more militant. Again, being a Marxist dosnt necessarily mean one does that either.


Don't worry, n00bs to teh comm-u-nism don't go on marx.org anyway, it's a literature archive rather than an introductory website.

I wouldnt know about that.

When "marx" or "Marxism" is typed in a search engine, Marxists.org is one of the first to come up.


BTW - Is that a quotation from Marx himself?

Which quote?

[The Grey Blur]

Kay, I don't really have the time to answer each of your points but what I'm saying is not to get annoyed over one wee line on a rarely-frequented webpage. Loads of people have different definitions of "Leftism", "Marxism" etc etc, we're never going to be able to come up with a set description that we all agree on are we?

And on .org coming up first thing...who discovers leftism thru Marx? People google Che! (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=che+guevara&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8)

[Janus]

Is that a quotation from Marx himself?
No, it was written by a MIA contributor.


What do you think?
I agree; that quote seems to lean almost towards lifestylism. It should be replaced with "A Marxist has a certain way of thinking and analyzing...".

[Raúl Duke]

Why not suggest the site to change it? (I wonder if they would listen though....?)

I liked Janus' idea:

"A Marxist has a certain way of thinking and analyzing...".

[rouchambeau]

Yeah, it's a little off. Marxism is simply a way of looking at the world and human relations.

[Faceless]

No, I dont agree with that. There are lots of Marxists who live like ordinary people and do not participate in "revolutionary" activities.

There is nothing distinguishing a Marxist from the ordinary person other than their political views and beliefs. Many dont live differently.
Such people are called "Marxologists".
Marxists are people who wish to make a revolutionary transformation in society and use a scientific method to inform them in their revolutionary practice. As Marx himself said: philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways; the point however is to change it. If a person "believes in socialism", that does not make them a marxist. And because a person is well versed in Marx, that does not make them a marxist. Marxism involves being a communist and acting as such but in a way which is informed by the theory of marxism. In turn this practice informs a person; it teaches them and allows them to draw theoretical and abstract conclusions.

Obviously that does not mean we try to be nice to people in our day to day lives, and that we have to be ascetic or something. I have met a lot of comrades who don't live in any way similar to me. They are mostly too tidy and hard working! Having said that, being driven by a revolutionary compassion and impulse inevitably has effects on the day to day living of life. How can it be otherwise?

I would read that quote to mean that marxism is not just a theory; it is also a practical philosophy which involves actively attempting to revolutionise society. It is important for the website to distinguish this because there are many intellectuals who study Marx and have no inkling of the fact that Marx wrote what he did as a guide to real-life action.

[The Grey Blur]

^ See that's what I was trying to say :P

People need to get their revolutionary frustrations out!

[Connolly]

Faceless, I see what your saying, and I accept your points.

What about the older Marxists then. Those who feel they are no longer able to be "revolutionaries", no longer able to take part in activities.

Do they cease being Marxists since they no longer live a life of "practice"? - instead, only hold their opinions, thoughts and beliefs.


I still think it could or should be put another way however.

[gilhyle]

It seems to me you have touched on a profoundly important point, with long reaching impacts on Marxist theory.

I wish it was true what is said on that site. I wish it was true that it was possible to make a clear distinction between a 'Marxist' and a 'marxologist'.

While I think it is true that Marxists recognise that their theory serves revolutionary practice, rather than being able to stand as a free-standing theoretical science. (Im not saying by that that Marxism is not a science - but that is another debate). they recognise the link to practice is critical.

But to recognise that the Marxist theory is dependent on practise (or at least on its own conception of practice), is not the same as believing that the person who believes that must engage in revolutionary practice.

It is quite possible to believe all this and to feel uninclined to do anything about it oneself.

That is one of the critical points about Marxism: precisely because it concentrates on illuminating how revolutionary practice should be practiced, it does not preoccupy it self with providing a motive for engaging in that practice. Rather it claims that the material relations of society provide that motive ....and those material motives dont impinge on some people who are intellectually convinced.

[The Grey Blur]

Contact them, if it'll help you sleep at night

[Connolly]

Contact them, if it'll help you sleep at night

:lol: yeah, maybe.

[Faceless]

What about the older Marxists then. Those who feel they are no longer able to be "revolutionaries", no longer able to take part in activities.

Do they cease being Marxists since they no longer live a life of "practice"? - instead, only hold their opinions, thoughts and beliefs.


I still think it could or should be put another way however.
I wasn't saying that there are practical things that the individual has to do. In certain circumstances it is impossible to do more than you are limited. A british person working in the health service cannot help in unionising american workers in the transport industry for instance, although that marxist who is a british health worker recognises the importance of such a task for the world revolution. In that sense a person's contribution is only a partial contribution to a movement which a marxist has to see as a totality.

I am only a student for example, and the work I do at my university has its value but I see it within the context of a world revolution. An elderly retired person is of great value and has a great deal of experience and ability which can be used to train cadres to carry on the fight for world socialism. Of course they can not be trade unionists necessarily any longer, but they still have a great deal of value, and are capable of revolutionary practice. The form that that practice takes is different; that is all.

I agree though, for someone to read that sentence out of context may seem misleading; as though marxism is "a way of life". However, I feel the sentiment it is trying to express is very important; even central to marxism.

[Connolly]

Ok, im a little confused here about what exactly
you mean - (no fault of your own, just me).


I wasn't saying that there are practical things that the individual has to do.

But the quote - at least to me - says something else.

"A Marxist has a certain kind of practice, a way of living and working, that we call being a Communist."



I am saying - that an ordinary worker, even those such as anarchists, can "practice" the exact same things as a Marxists. They can live and work also the exact same way.

There is no great or specific difference which makes a person a Marxist, by the way they work, practice or "live".

The only distinguishing feature is belief and opinion.

There are cases when during a revolution a Marxist, Leninist, Anarchist or worker might "act" differently and take different steps differently than others.

But generally - in terms of "way of living and working" - IMO, there is no difference.

I really think the guy who wrote that really put it wrongly. And on such a primary site, where newcomers might stumble - it definitly should be changed.

Thats my opinion on it.

[Faceless]

I am saying - that an ordinary worker, even those such as anarchists, can "practice" the exact same things as a Marxists. They can live and work also the exact same way.
The practice of "being a communist", I don't think means how a person works or lives as such. I don't think that the authors of marxists.org meant that a person must have a certain routine, and must work to a certain ability, and must be amicable to their colleagues. When I said:

I wasn't saying that there are practical things that the individual has to do.
I meant that you don't have to do one specific thing. I definately think a marxist has to be try and practically bring about revolution. Doing work in a trade union can be just as much revolutionary practice as an elderly man or woman teaching newcomers to marxism the basic ideas, or a student setting up a speaking group at his university. All of these to me fall under "revolutionary practice" or the practice of being a communist.

Just because the practice of the student, the tade unionist, the full-time party member and the elderly comrade are different, does not make them any less important. From each according to their abilities afterall. But the fact is, that they are defined from anarchists, reformists etc. (who may even share similar practices and may even call themselves "communists") by the fact that this practice is informed by a scientific theory of revolution; dialectical materialism.

I would disagree then with you then that the only thing that distinguishes a marxist from the anarchist or reformist is just a different opinion or belief. It is that the practice of the marxist is guided by a scientific theory. In turn this theory is enriched by practice and so on. Theory and practice form an inseperable whole, and it is only with difficulty and by reducing the meaning in them that I can try and seperate them as such.

The practical side of being a marxist is supremely important, and is inseperable from marxism as a set of ideas. If the marxists.org site has put it in a too one-sided way, how would you better express it? I agree with you to an extent. It seems misleading, particularly if taken out of context or misunderstood. However, they are trying to express what marxism is as briefly as they can, which can't be the easiest thing.

[Connolly]

Fare points faceless. I agree with you now.

[peaccenicked]

Marx said he only knows that he is not a Marxist. The term implies an uncritical following of Marx's teachings. His favourite motto was "Nothing human is alien to me". He also called for the ruthless criticism of all existing things. How much that is a lifestyle seems to be about balance, perhaps even about timing. Life itself allows us indulgences that are neither hither or tither and might only be the subject of petty bickering.
Being a revolutionary is a different matter, there are different types, and different historical significances to revolutionary activity. Those who withdraw can come out stronger. Those who come out strongest may burn out then withdraw.
The truth is concrete,and insurrection is an art, it takes knowledge and skill to fight the bureaucratic manipulators and the ideologues of Capitalism and war. The struggle is really to find our way, to help the mass of people find their way towards liberation.

[gilhyle]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 04:35 am
Those who withdraw can come out stronger. Those who come out strongest may burn out then withdraw.

I've seen anarchists make this point in a way I thought very healthy - but most 'Leninsts' tend to be too preoccupied with maintaining the discipline to make that point.....but unfortunately their cynicsm gets confirmed, because so few come back.