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Qwerty Dvorak
31st January 2007, 23:06
I was just thinking and it seems to me that as a revolution is not likely or even feasible for a good long while yet, and considering that material and social conditions (and hence the way in which society is run) are changing at a more or less constant rate, it is pretty much impossible to predict specifically how things will be run in a Socialist society. Thus any previous questions (or answers) regarding the specifics of how a Socialist society would be run are utterly moronic.

So it may seem to some of you that, since Socialists are unable to provide specific details regarding the running of a Socialist society, Socialism is inherently infeasible. (I will take 2 particular examples, although the following argument should apply to a broad range of issues.) First of all, it must be pointed out that a lack of detailed blueprints for a society does not logically imply that such a society cannot exist. More importantly however, it should be pointed out that thus far, we Socialists have only been able to provide vague answers to your demands for specifics, such as "it would be determined by a state-run body" or "it would be decided on by a vote of the people", and our opponents have claimed these answers to be indicative of the unrealistic nature of Socialism. However, this is not the case. There is nothing unrealistic about something being determined by state-run bodies, or things being decided upon by votes of the people. Indeed, there are plenty of things determined by state bodies (or even more common, bodies in general) today, and of course the same applies for things being decided by popular vote!! So how are your arguments consistent? We say "the people will vote on it", you say "impossible", and yet you continuously point towards democracy as a governmental model. We say "the state will decide", you say "impossible", despite living in a society run by a state that decides things on a regular basis. So here we have 2 important facts which have been shown to be true:
1. States have the ability to set up and run socially-based programmes, and
2. Certain issues can be decided on by a democratic process.
The only 2 entities necessary for the above 2 processes are the government and the general population. It should be noted that I tend to argue for a Socialist government, and thus both the aforementioned entities would be present in a Socialist society. So there is nothing to suggest that the above processes could not take place. Any attempt to claim that the above processes could not take place in a Socialist society therefore constitutes a positive assertion, and thus the onus is on the claimant to provide detailed specifics and proof as to how such processes could not be undertaken.

My apologies if this post is somewhat hard to read, it's been a long day. Also, as I stated in the title this is a passing thought, just something I'm putting on the table for capitalists and communists alike to dissect. So you can argue, but no flaming :)

t_wolves_fan
1st February 2007, 02:21
This sounds like a defense of God to me.



Seriously. It's not that we don't think everything can't be state run. It can be. The question is whether it can be run well enough to satisfy enough people in the long run (i.e. "work").

It can't.

As a government employee who doles out resources and analyzes their use, I am telling you that it cannot be done in a way that will satisfy people long enough to evolve into Heaven/Communist utopia.

Qwerty Dvorak
1st February 2007, 22:00
This sounds like a defense of God to me.
How so?



Seriously. It's not that we don't think everything can't be state run. It can be. The question is whether it can be run well enough to satisfy enough people in the long run (i.e. "work").
So are you saying that government programmes don't work at present?



As a government employee who doles out resources and analyzes their use, I am telling you that it cannot be done in a way that will satisfy people long enough to evolve into Heaven/Communist utopia.

Please keep in mind that this argument refers to specifics such as how needs would be determined etc. And whether or not bodies as set up and run by the state could actually function.

t_wolves_fan
1st February 2007, 22:30
Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 10:00 pm

This sounds like a defense of God to me.
How so?


Just the verbiage and the thought process. "We're asked for proof, and we can't provide it, but gosh darn it we know it to be true."

Please understand I'm joking when I say that.




Seriously. It's not that we don't think everything can't be state run. It can be. The question is whether it can be run well enough to satisfy enough people in the long run (i.e. "work").
So are you saying that government programmes don't work at present?

It's not an either/or proposition. Some government programs work well, some don't. Some work well because they're things government can and should do for various reasons, such as providing sewage treatment or building roads or running parks.

But no, a lot of government programs do not work well, either for two reasons: One, the elected officials who created it didn't do a very good job. Or two, government is not good at doing some things or should not try to do them.

And this is where I have a problem with socialism or centrally-planned economies. Government can run a park or a park system, but we cannot capably plan how much of every single consumer product and service, plus every single production resource, plus every single labor resource is used.

Now please understand that as far as I am concerned "government" and "production councils" or "communes" or whatever are essentially the same thing, since they will run by the same principals that include consensus, open information, public input, not being able to choose customers, and so on and so forth.

Essentially, there are a lot of economic decisions that are best left to people acting privately.

Qwerty Dvorak
2nd February 2007, 00:20
And this is where I have a problem with socialism or centrally-planned economies. Government can run a park or a park system, but we cannot capably plan how much of every single consumer product and service, plus every single production resource, plus every single labor resource is used.
Aye 'tis true, but surely this does not mean government would be incapable of managing an economy? I mean at current we have corporations and private entrepreneurs and such trying as best they can to plan how much of every single consumer product and service, plus every single production resource, plus every single labour resource is needed for production. They might not get it spot on, but they get it close enough to produce product x with relative efficiency, while making a healthy profit for themselves. What about changing "private manager" to "state manager" renders the aforementioned planning impossible?

Question everything
2nd February 2007, 00:21
look what socialism has done to countries that adopt it... Cuba being the best modern example of a socialist country it has given low/no cost housing, and many other improvement despite the worlds superpower doing everything in it's power to stop it... imagine the whole world improving as much as Cuba unopposed... that seems to be pretty good if you ask me...

wtfm8lol
2nd February 2007, 00:34
and many other improvement despite the worlds superpower doing everything in it's power to stop it

umm..i dont think a trade boycott is everything the US can do..especially if you consider that we could wipe the island clean in a matter of minutes

Question everything
2nd February 2007, 00:39
I'm beginning to enoy our little chats wtfm8lol :wub: ...

You really think they wouldn't nuke cuba, if they thought they could? besides they are doing more than boycott, from assassination attepts with exploding cigars to arresting cuban operatives trying to work with the CIA, an invasion, state sponsored terror... yea I don't know what the hell I was thinking...

wtfm8lol
2nd February 2007, 00:45
You really think they wouldn't nuke cuba, if they thought they could?

yes, actually, i don't think they would.

Question everything
2nd February 2007, 00:50
:lol: keep dreaming they would they have done everything else they could :lol: and by able, I mean if nobody hated them for doing it and if no direct military action would be taken to retailate, still think america wouldn't do it?

ZX3
2nd February 2007, 00:52
Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 07:20 pm
Aye 'tis true, but surely this does not mean government would be incapable of managing an economy? I mean at current we have corporations and private entrepreneurs and such trying as best they can to plan how much of every single consumer product and service, plus every single production resource, plus every single labour resource is needed for production. They might not get it spot on, but they get it close enough to produce product x with relative efficiency, while making a healthy profit for themselves. What about changing "private manager" to "state manager" renders the aforementioned planning impossible?

The current structures produce according to capitalist caculations. A socialist community would presumably end such calculations. So it is not simply an issue of switching managers. Its a question of restructuring the community, and whether that restructure will improve, or hinder things.

Qwerty Dvorak
2nd February 2007, 00:57
The current structures produce according to capitalist caculations. A socialist community would presumably end such calculations.
Why? A change in governmental structure does not imply a breaking of arithmetic, or a change of the fundamental laws of mathematics. People could still calculate things, the same as they do now.

ZX3
2nd February 2007, 01:05
Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 07:57 pm

The current structures produce according to capitalist caculations. A socialist community would presumably end such calculations.
Why? A change in governmental structure does not imply a breaking of arithmetic, or a change of the fundamental laws of mathematics. People could still calculate things, the same as they do now.


Capitaliss has certain calculations when it does its production. The results of which motivate socialists to be anti-capitalist. So the calculations which capitalists use will not be replicated in a socialist community.

Qwerty Dvorak
2nd February 2007, 01:26
Originally posted by ZX3+February 02, 2007 01:05 am--> (ZX3 @ February 02, 2007 01:05 am)
[email protected] 01, 2007 07:57 pm

The current structures produce according to capitalist caculations. A socialist community would presumably end such calculations.
Why? A change in governmental structure does not imply a breaking of arithmetic, or a change of the fundamental laws of mathematics. People could still calculate things, the same as they do now.


Capitaliss has certain calculations when it does its production. The results of which motivate socialists to be anti-capitalist. So the calculations which capitalists use will not be replicated in a socialist community. [/b]
And you accuse us of being excessively vague :P

ZX3
2nd February 2007, 01:39
Originally posted by RedStar1916+February 01, 2007 08:26 pm--> (RedStar1916 @ February 01, 2007 08:26 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 01:05 am

[email protected] 01, 2007 07:57 pm

The current structures produce according to capitalist caculations. A socialist community would presumably end such calculations.
Why? A change in governmental structure does not imply a breaking of arithmetic, or a change of the fundamental laws of mathematics. People could still calculate things, the same as they do now.


Capitaliss has certain calculations when it does its production. The results of which motivate socialists to be anti-capitalist. So the calculations which capitalists use will not be replicated in a socialist community.
And you accuse us of being excessively vague :P [/b]
You asked a vague question.

Does socialism calculate economic activity using supply/demand... interest rates, prices, salaries, inflation ect ect? No. it seeks to end this kind of stuff.

So how does socialism propose to calculate economic activity?

t_wolves_fan
2nd February 2007, 14:52
Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 12:20 am
Aye 'tis true, but surely this does not mean government would be incapable of managing an economy?
Yes, that is precisely what it means.

In stark terms of "could it be done", yes the government could plan the entire economy.

In terms of "could it be done in a way that meets people's wants and needs to a degree that it does so successfully for long periods of time in a way that still enables innovation, progress, and abundance?" no, it could not do it. Soviet Union. There you go.



mean at current we have corporations and private entrepreneurs and such trying as best they can to plan how much of every single consumer product and service, plus every single production resource, plus every single labour resource is needed for production.

Well not really.

1. No corporation is trying to plan how much of every single consumer product and service the public consumes. At most they are trying to gain market share of certain products or services. The Coca-Cola company does not care how many or what brand of car you purchase, nor does McDonald's care where you buy your paint. Understand?

2. Try as they might, no corporation can force you to buy their product nor work for them. Coke cannot prevent me from buying Pepsi no matter how much they advertize, nor can Ford make me work for them no matter what benefits they promise. People would not have this choice in a planned economy, would they. In a planned economy there are no or fewer choices on a lot of products and services; this is mandated by the priority to standardize and seek efficiency while providing equal distribution to everyone.

Now I can sense that you're going to respond with monopolies. Here is the thing about monopolies: when a government enables a monopoly that is a political decision that is not coherent with capitalism. A capitalist would not approve of a government-sponsored monopoly. We, or at least I, do approve of them in some instances where economies of scale are present (i.e. sewage treatment plants) but these are quite special cases and should be highly regulated.

In a functioning market, which the government has the right and responsibility to oversee, firms cannot and do not achieve monopoly. Look at Microsoft. It came close to achieving monopoly in the United States, but the government forced it to back down and now there are competing operating systems out there. Even a behemoth like Microsoft cannot achieve monopoly when there is a robust and fair regulatory system, which I support. Remember I am not a laissez-faire capitalist. It is not a matter of having to choose between either laissez-faire capitalism or socialism - there are degrees between the two.

mean at current we have corporations and private entrepreneurs and such trying as best they can to plan how much of every single consumer product and service, plus every single production resource, plus every single labour resource is needed for production. They might not get it spot on, but they get it close enough to produce product x with relative efficiency, while making a healthy profit for themselves. What about changing "private manager" to "state manager" renders the aforementioned planning impossible?


They might not get it spot on, but they get it close enough to produce product x with relative efficiency, while making a healthy profit for themselves.

There is nothing inherently wrong with that. Exxon Mobile made $39 billion last year because it delivered a product that people wanted and needed and it controlled its costs. Striving for profit means it found efficient ways to deliver gasoline to people.

Now, profit can be achieved through the wrong means and when that happens there needs to be consequences, but "profit" is not by definition wrong.

Look at the alternative: Venezuela. To gain political support, Venezuela subsidizes gasoline to make it incredibly cheap. The result? Venezuelans are buying SUVs like crazy because they have no incentive to use less gasoline. Here in the United States we started dumping SUVs and buying hybrids because we had an incentive to do so.

So Exxon profited and the biggest car market in the world turned away from SUVs. Not so terrible, is it?


What about changing "private manager" to "state manager" renders the aforementioned planning impossible?

With no incentive to profit, and the inherent weaknesses of government (especially the need to provide things to gain or maintain political support), it is a near certainty that efficiency will be lost.

Again, Soviet Union. There is your example of what happens when central planning is implemented.

colonelguppy
2nd February 2007, 17:37
Originally posted by RedStar1916+February 01, 2007 08:26 pm--> (RedStar1916 @ February 01, 2007 08:26 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 01:05 am

[email protected] 01, 2007 07:57 pm

The current structures produce according to capitalist caculations. A socialist community would presumably end such calculations.
Why? A change in governmental structure does not imply a breaking of arithmetic, or a change of the fundamental laws of mathematics. People could still calculate things, the same as they do now.


Capitaliss has certain calculations when it does its production. The results of which motivate socialists to be anti-capitalist. So the calculations which capitalists use will not be replicated in a socialist community.
And you accuse us of being excessively vague :P [/b]
you wouldn't be able to use the supply and demand model for a monopolized government economy.