Communism....is it really the solution? - Is Communism reall

[guerillawarfare]

Okay, I admit, the idea of a classless society is incredibly appealing, but with human nature the way it is, is it really ever going to work? If even one group of people decides to take advantage of the system, it's gone, so for it to work, they've got to somehow get rid of all the people who disagree with Communism....hence the removal of free speech and other Capitalist rights.....and once the dictatorship has created a classless society, who here really believes they're going to relinquish power, just like that? Is there anything in the world today to suggest that would ever happen? Capitalism's got its faults, but is it really worth suppressing the freedom of speech (one of the most basic rights of man) and killing so many innocent people for their ideas, for a society that may never exist?
Even the US, with all its faults (and it's got many!!!) isn't purely capitalistic....it's not possible, but then nor is a completely Communist society
Maybe we need to step back and look at what we want and how much of that we can get....

[Xvall]

Well, I personally don't think that our goal is 'absolute perfection'. I believe that kind of thinking is what caused so many ruined communist states. In fact, was it not a great communist that stated " While the state exists, there will be no freedom. When freedom exists, there will be no state. " I believe we're on the right track. By what I've seen here, no one has plans to go about killing innocent people in order to achieve their goals. I believe that communism can work, so long as someone doesn't try to be a perfectionist and do things such as limit rights, opress people, or ruin the ideal as a whole. I'm fairly positive it can work if enough people want it. The main problem seems to be other countries believeing that communist states are a threat, mainly to capitalism, therefore they find it a necessity to do anything within their power to ruin the community. Espionage, Assasination, Sanctions, all of which plunge the community into fear, and often result in the leader of the community feeling the need to ban things and impose harsher laws. In reality, those laws would not be necesarry if opposing factions were not trying to destroy the community.

Just a few thoughts on this from me...

- Drake Dracoli

[MJM]

Freedom of speech really doesn't exist now so you're really not going to lose much.
I think the whole freedom of speech thing is largely a minor argument because
a) You don't have it now anyway.
B) What was the last great thing accomplished by this freedom?
c) The poor can't feed themselves with this freedom.
d) It's abused ( or the ideal is abused ) by those who own the news corporations.

[guerillawarfare]

okay, i'm not saying that capitalism completely guarantees freedom of speech, but the fundamental difference between the two systems is that if one group of people decide to abuse communism, the entire thing's stuffed....if some people decide to abuse the capitalist system, i think history has shown it's a lot easier to fix the damage, mainly because it's an each man for himself thing, so a groups of people are going to have to do a lot more to hurt a lot of people than they would have to in a communist society......
as for freedom of speech feeding the poor.....well, show me any country, capitalist or communist that has a well fed population, and i'll show you a very, very unique country....take China and India....comparable populations, one capitalist, one communist...China says it's managed to eradicate absolute poverty while acknowledging that so many still live in apalling conditions.....what's the point of eliminating poverty, saying that no one has an annual income of less than $US77, if that makes no difference anyway? India, which has had to face much opposition as well (if you're going to tell me China was held up by the Sino-Soviet conflict), has an economy just as strong, with no greater numbers below the poverty line.....please tell me exactly how communism's solving this problem?
i'm not saying that capitalism's perfect, but i hardly think communism's what we need....

[MJM]

Some would argue that any hope of communism was lost in China a long time ago.
No-one claims there has ever been a truely communist society in existence, all suppossed communist countries have been building communism.
But my arguement in this thread really is against the free speech bull that's swallowed by the masses.

Many countries other than the US have free speech, some if not all of them have even more free speech than the US. It's freedom is for the ruling class to say what they want and to fill people's mind with what they want them to believe.

[MindCrime]

Freedom does not exist in any nation. All governments supress their people to maintain order and control. Where was freedom of speech when the National Guard opeaned up on protesters at Berkly?

As progressive leftist, we must strive for anarcho-communism. Small societies, where the benefits of working with the whole can be clearly seen. Where people will actually benefit from their hard work. The uber communist states are a result of fear from capitalist intervention, its a wartime survival strategy.

Once the Greed System has been put to rest, then true communism can be achieved. We must abolish the states and turn to small democratically run and communally ownded settlements. That is where people will finally be free and will recieve the benifits of their society's toils.

[Revolution Hero]

Oppression will always exist with the state existing. State is the mean of oppression of a not ruling class,by the ruling one. And communists have the right to oppress capitalistic members of the socialist society, in order to maintain their leading position.
On the very first steps of a socialist development violence and oppression always is needed.
What we would do if we have capitalist thinkers in a developed socialism? WE HAVE TO OPPRESS THEM, OR










THEY WOULD RUIN OUR SYSTEM. What is better to choose? I think , the answer is OPPRESSION.

[MindCrime]

Every society opresses certian political groups to maintain their power. What Marx strives for is a society without class, so there will be no oppression. It's all a progress, the world wont change over night. Ultimatly, nations must be destroyed and divisions between man removed. States = Oppression. Once they are all conquered, they can all be dismantled, and there will be freedom for the people.

[Imperial Power]

MJM that's startling to hear from you that freedom of speech doesn't really exist. What is the reason you think this internet site exists and other ones like it. What do you think the reason is your allowed to have the views you do and speak about them openly. Freedom of speech is the only reason. Your words should be proof enough to anyone of the evil values of communism.

[RedRevolutionary87]

this website is no threat to the government, they dont need to take it down,this is just a bunch of people arguing and discussing there is no talk here of concrete revolution. www.raisethefist.com became a threat so what happened the fbi stormed the guys house and shut down the website. so no there is no freedom of speech, if you need to be silenced the government will silence you.

[CimSaint]

I'm not convinced that a group of people living in a true communist society would try and take power in the first place. They would have food, shelter, security, all they needed. Their society would easily be able to produce all that was needed, so why push people around and take more? I don't think man is so irrational that he would exploit people for exploitations sake.

And also, who says they'd even be ABLE to take over the collective? It's obvious from discussing with people on this board that communists/socialists/anarchists are extremely passionate in their beliefs, and would not be willing to give up thier way of life. Just think, capitalists have fought to the death to preserve thier shit hole; imagine what people would do to preserve their collective.

[MJM]

Quote: from Imperial Power on 11:04 am on Feb. 20, 2002
MJM that's startling to hear from you that freedom of speech doesn't really exist. What is the reason you think this internet site exists and other ones like it. What do you think the reason is your allowed to have the views you do and speak about them openly. Freedom of speech is the only reason. Your words should be proof enough to anyone of the evil values of communism.


I'm sure that you can't be so blind that you don't see that subversive or unconforming people are regularlly persecuted the world over IP.
True freedom of speech doesn't exist. Go to a right wing or even maybe left wing rally and start yelling out how much you think they're wrong then see how free your speech is, let me know how it goes I'll send flowers to the hospital for ya.

[MindCrime]

Hell, if this wasnt an online forum I bet a few people would have taken a swing at him already!

[La Resistance]

lol...

I like the idea discussed before, how Greed Crime must be annihilated for true communism to take place...

Funny thing how N. Americans have "god" written and praised upon on their green bills, yet their society believes in TOTAL GREED. So the seven deadly sins don't apply all of a sudden?

HYPOCRITES... DIE!

[TheDerminator]

Some weird concepts about "Communism" in this thread, the primitive socialism of China and the Soviet Union was not even socialism never mind communism.
What is all the stuff about freedom of speech, as if you need control of the media in a socialist democracy.
Yep, socialism is a democracy, and it is appalling you do not see it.
There is no contradiction, and in a socialist democracy, ultimate power is in the hands of the people who can get rid of leaders in regular elections.
Freedom of speech and democracy in a real socialist society make "freedom of speech" and "democracy" in bourgeois society look what they are: myths

derminated.