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Karl Marx's Camel
28th January 2007, 10:35
Kicking Away the Ladder:
How the Economic and Intellectual Histories of Capitalism Have Been Re-Written to Justify Neo-Liberal Capitalism

Ha-Joon Chang (Cambridge University, UK)

There is currently great pressure on developing countries to adopt a set of “good policies” and “good institutions” – such as liberalisation of trade and investment and strong patent law – to foster their economic development. When some developing countries show reluctance in adopting them, the proponents of this recipe often find it difficult to understand these countries’ stupidity in not accepting such a tried and tested recipe for development. After all, they argue, these are the policies and the institutions that the developed countries had used in the past in order to become rich. Their belief in their own recommendation is so absolute that in their view it has to be imposed on the developing countries through strong bilateral and multilateral external pressures, even when these countries don’t want them.



Naturally, there have been heated debates on whether these recommended policies and institutions are appropriate for developing countries. However, curiously, even many of those who are sceptical of the applicability of these policies and institutions to the developing countries take it for granted that these were the policies and the institutions that were used by the developed countries when they themselves were developing countries.

Contrary to the conventional wisdom, the historical fact is that the rich countries did not develop on the basis of the policies and the institutions that they now recommend to, and often force upon, the developing countries. Unfortunately, this fact is little known these days because the “official historians” of capitalism have been very successful in re-writing its history.



Almost all of today’s rich countries used tariff protection and subsidies to develop their industries. Interestingly, Britain and the USA, the two countries that are supposed to have reached the summit of the world economy through their free-market, free-trade policy, are actually the ones that had most aggressively used protection and subsidies.



Contrary to the popular myth, Britain had been an aggressive user, and in certain areas a pioneer, of activist policies intended to promote its industries. Such policies, although limited in scope, date back from the 14th century (Edward III) and the 15th century (Henry VII) in relation to woollen manufacturing, the leading industry of the time. England then was an exporter of raw wool to the Low Countries, and Henry VII for example tried to change this by taxing raw wool exports and poaching skilled workers from the Low Countries.



Particularly between the trade policy reform of its first Prime Minister Robert Walpole in 1721 and its adoption of free trade around 1860, Britain used very dirigiste trade and industrial policies, involving measures very similar to what countries like Japan and Korea later used in order to develop their industries. During this period, it protected its industries a lot more heavily than did France, the supposed dirigiste counterpoint to its free-trade, free-market system. Given this history, argued Friedrich List, the leading German economist of the mid-19th century, Britain preaching free trade to less advanced countries like Germany and the USA was like someone trying to “kick away the ladder” with which he had climbed to the top.



List was not alone in seeing the matter in this light. Many American thinkers shared this view. Indeed, it was American thinkers like Alexander Hamilton, the first Treasury Secretary of the USA, and the (now-forgotten) economist Daniel Raymond, who first systematically developed the infant industry argument. Indeed, List, who is commonly known as the father of the infant industry argument, in fact started out as a free-trader (he was an ardent supporter of German customs union – Zollverein) and learnt about this argument during his exile in the USA during the 1820s



Little known today, the intellectual interaction between the USA and Germany during the 19th century did not end there. The German Historical School – represented by people like Wilhelm Roscher, Bruno Hildebrand, Karl Knies, Gustav Schmoller, and Werner Sombart – attracted a lot of American economists in the late 19th century. The patron saint of American Neoclassical economics, John Bates Clark, in whose name the most prestigious award for young (under 40) American economists is given today, went to Germany in 1873 and studied the German Historical School under Roscher and Knies, although he gradually drifted away from it. Richard Ely, one of the leading American economists of the time, also studied under Knies and influenced the American Institutionalist School through his disciple, John Commons. Ely was one of the founding fathers of the American Economic Association; to this day, the biggest public lecture at the Association’s annual meeting is given in Ely’s name, although few of the present AEA members would know who he was.



Between the Civil War and the Second World War, the USA was literally the most heavily protected economy in the world. In this context, it is important to note that the American Civil War was fought on the issue of tariff as much as, if not more, on the issue of slavery. Of the two major issues that divided the North and the South, the South had actually more to fear on the tariff front than on the slavery front. Abraham Lincoln was a well-known protectionist who cut his political teeth under the charismatic politician Henry Clay in the Whig Party, which advocated the “American System” based on infrastructural development and protectionism (thus named on recognition that free trade is for the British interest). One of Lincoln’s top economic advisors was the famous protectionist economist, Henry Carey, who once was described as “the only American economist of importance” by Marx and Engels in the early 1850s but has now been almost completely air-brushed out of the history of American economic thought. On the other hand, Lincoln thought that African Americans were racially inferior and that slave emancipation was an idealistic proposal with no prospect of immediate implementation – he is said to have emancipated the slaves in 1862 as a strategic move to win the War rather than out of some moral conviction.



In protecting their industries, the Americans were going against the advice of such prominent economists as Adam Smith and Jean Baptiste Say, who saw the country’s future in agriculture. However, the Americans knew exactly what the game was. They knew that Britain reached the top through protection and subsidies and therefore that they needed to do the same if they were going to get anywhere. Criticising the British preaching of free trade to his country, Ulysses Grant, the Civil War hero and the US President between 1868-1876, retorted that “within 200 years, when America has gotten out of protection all that it can offer, it too will adopt free trade”. When his country later reached the top after the Second World War, it too started “kicking away the ladder” by preaching and forcing free trade to the less developed countries.

The UK and the USA may be the more dramatic examples, but almost all the rest of the developed world today used tariffs, subsidies and other means to promote their industries in the earlier stages of their development. Cases like Germany, Japan, and Korea are well known in this respect. But even Sweden, which later came to represent the “small open economy” to many economists had also strategically used tariffs, subsidies, cartels, and state support for R&D to develop key industries, especially textile, steel, and engineering.

There were some exceptions like the Netherlands and Switzerland that have maintained free trade since the late 18th century. However, these were countries that were already on the frontier of technological development by the 18th centuries and therefore did not need much protection. Also, it should be noted that the Netherlands deployed an impressive range of interventionist measures up till the 17th century in order to build up its maritime and commercial supremacy. Moreover, Switzerland did not have a patent law until 1907, flying directly against the emphasis that today’s orthodoxy puts on the protection of intellectual property rights (see below). More interestingly, the Netherlands abolished its 1817 patent law in 1869 on the ground that patents are politically-created monopolies inconsistent with its free-market principles – a position that seems to elude most of today’s free-market economists – and did not introduce another patent law until 1912.

The story is similar in relation to institutional development. In the earlier stages of their development, today’s developed countries did not even have such “basic” institutions as professional civil service, central bank, and patent law. It was only after the Pendleton Act in 1883 that the US federal government started recruiting its employees through a competitive process. The central bank, an institution dear to the heart of today’s free-market economists, did not exist in most of today’s rich countries until the early 20th century – not least because the free-market economists of the day condemned it as a mechanism for unjustly bailing out imprudent borrowers. The US central bank (the Federal Reserve Board) was set up only in 1913 and the Italian central bank did not even have a note issue monopoly until 1926. Many countries allowed patenting of foreign invention until the late 19th century. As I mentioned above, Switzerland and the Netherlands refused to introduce a patent law despite international pressure until 1907 and 1912 respectively, thus freely “stole” technologies from abroad. The examples can go on.



One important conclusion that emerges from the history of institutional development is that it took the developed countries a long time to develop institutions in their earlier days of development. Institutions typically took decades, and sometimes generations, to develop. Just to give one example, the need for central banking was perceived at least in some circles from at least the 17th century, but the first “real” central bank, the Bank of England, was instituted only in 1844, some two centuries later.



Another important point emerges is that the levels of institutional development in today’s developed countries in the earlier period were much lower than those in today’s developing countries. For example, measured by the (admittedly highly imperfect) income level, in 1820, the UK was at a somewhat higher level of development than that of India today, but it did not even have many of the most “basic” institutions that India has today. It did not have universal suffrage (it did not even have universal male suffrage), a central bank, income tax, generalised limited liability, a generalised bankruptcy law, a professional bureaucracy, meaningful securities regulations, and even minimal labour regulations (except for a couple of minimal and hardly-enforced regulations on child labour).

If the policies and institutions that the rich countries are recommending to the poor countries are not the ones that they themselves used when they were developing, what is going on? We can only conclude that the rich countries are trying to kick away the ladder that allowed them to climb where they are. It is no coincidence that economic development has become more difficult during the last two decades when the developed countries started turning on the pressure on the developing countries to adopt the so-called “global standard” policies and institutions.



During this period, the average annual per capita income growth rate for the developing countries has been halved from 3% in the previous two decades (1960-80) to 1.5%. In particular, Latin America virtually stopped growing, while Sub-Saharan Africa and most ex-Communist countries have experienced a fall in absolute income. Economic instability has increased markedly, as manifested in the dozens of financial crises we have witnessed over the last decade alone. Income inequality has been growing in many developing countries and poverty has increased, rather than decreased, in a significant number of them.

What can be done to change this?

First, the historical facts about the historical experiences of the developed countries should be more widely publicised. This is not just a matter of “getting history right”, but also of allowing the developing countries to make more informed choices.

Second, the conditions attached to bilateral and multilateral financial assistance to developing countries should be radically changed. It should be accepted that the orthodox recipe is not working, and also that there can be no “best practice” policies that everyone should use.

Third, the WTO rules should be re-written so that the developing countries can more actively use tariffs and subsidies for industrial development. They should also be allowed to have less stringent patent laws and other intellectual property rights laws.

Fourth, improvements in institutions should be encouraged, but this should not be equated with imposing a fixed set of (in practice, today’s – not even yesterday’s – Anglo-American) institutions on all countries. Special care has to be taken in order not to demand excessively rapid upgrading of institutions by the developing countries, especially given that they already have quite developed institutions when compared to today’s developed countries at comparable stages of development, and given that establishing and running new institutions is costly.

By being allowed to adopt policies and institutions that are more suitable to their conditions, the developing countries will be able to develop faster. This will also benefit the developed countries in the long run, as it will increase their trade and investment opportunities. That the developed countries cannot see this is the tragedy of our time.

Thoughts?

Discuss.

Publius
28th January 2007, 15:35
Even though I consider myself, broadly, a 'free trader', I actually agree with a lot of this.

I should clarify: I think free trade is the best solution, but I think free trade is only possible in some cases. Amartya Sen has shown that the key to successful development is not lower tariffs or more liberalization, but better health care and education. I see nothing wrong with doing as Korea and the other Asian tigers did in erecting (ha) tariffs to protect nascent industries, as long as you take them down once the companies exist.

I do have a few issues of contention though:



During this period, the average annual per capita income growth rate for the developing countries has been halved from 3% in the previous two decades (1960-80) to 1.5%. In particular, Latin America virtually stopped growing,

The 'lost decade' of the 1980's was not due to liberalization, but to increased state control.

The 90s in Latin America were much more free-trade focused and were thus a period of greater growth.

You need only look at Chile for proof of this; ignoring the darkness of Pinochet's reign , Chile is now one of the most rich Latin American countries, due, in large part, to free trade.



while Sub-Saharan Africa

I'm not as knowledgeable about Africa, but again, I don't think 'neoliberal' economics were at cause.



and most ex-Communist countries have experienced a fall in absolute income.

Well, the collapse of the Soviet Union certainly didn't help matters. But ignoring the 90s (which were a time of poverty), you'll see that many of the former Soviet Union countries have vibrant economies.

All of this contradicts, to greater and lesser degrees, that the article is stating.



Economic instability has increased markedly, as manifested in the dozens of financial crises we have witnessed over the last decade alone. Income inequality has been growing in many developing countries and poverty has increased, rather than decreased, in a significant number of them.

Pretty much true.



First, the historical facts about the historical experiences of the developed countries should be more widely publicised. This is not just a matter of “getting history right”, but also of allowing the developing countries to make more informed choices.

I agree. But the books are out there. A few are sitting on my shelf right now.



Second, the conditions attached to bilateral and multilateral financial assistance to developing countries should be radically changed. It should be accepted that the orthodox recipe is not working, and also that there can be no “best practice” policies that everyone should use.

Agree. For some countries, very liberal trade is best. For others, maybe not.



Third, the WTO rules should be re-written so that the developing countries can more actively use tariffs and subsidies for industrial development. They should also be allowed to have less stringent patent laws and other intellectual property rights laws.

Fully agree. The WTO is basically a screw-job.



Fourth, improvements in institutions should be encouraged, but this should not be equated with imposing a fixed set of (in practice, today’s – not even yesterday’s – Anglo-American) institutions on all countries. Special care has to be taken in order not to demand excessively rapid upgrading of institutions by the developing countries, especially given that they already have quite developed institutions when compared to today’s developed countries at comparable stages of development, and given that establishing and running new institutions is costly.

I would argue that this is, by far, more important than anything else.

Karl Marx's Camel
28th January 2007, 15:46
The 'lost decade' of the 1980's was not due to liberalization, but to increased state control.




The 90s in Latin America were much more free-trade focused and were thus a period of greater growth.

Could you elaborate?




You need only look at Chile for proof of this; ignoring the darkness of Pinochet's reign , Chile is now one of the most rich Latin American countries, due, in large part, to free trade.

As far as my knowledge go, Chile's "success" is by and large due to Chile's exportation of copper and high global market price for copper.

It should be mentioned that the company selling and extracting copper in Chile is state owned. It was nationalized under, you guessed it, Allende.



you'll see that many of the former Soviet Union countries have vibrant economies.


Examples?

Publius
28th January 2007, 16:20
Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2007 03:46 pm




Could you elaborate?


Well, the main cause of it was too much debt; governments defaulted on payments.

The reason for this is, broadly, too much spending, not enough revenue. But after the crisis, economies in Latin America became from free trade oriented. You need only look at the influence of Hernando do Soto, Jeffrey Sachs, and others, to see that.

It's more accurate to describe the crisis as a failure of government, government spending, and dependencia theory. Compare this to Southeast Asia, which admittedly used tariffs, but still allowed for mostly market control compared to state control in Latin America. Southeast Asia opened up its economy during this time and expanded. Latin America collapsed under debt.

That's the short of it, according to the book off of my shelf.


As far as my knowledge go, Chile's "success" is by and large due to Chile's exportation of copper and high global market price for copper.

But there can be no doubt that Chile's economy saw a huge, huge reduction in government command and control under 'the Chicago boys' and under democracy.

It's not the United States or Hong Kong, but it's still, broadly, free market.

By the way, I would recommend this book here to everyone: The Commanding Heights: the Battle for the World Economy by Daniel Yergin and Joseph Stanislaw. It's about how Keynesianism and Hayekism battled throughout the 20th century for control. It's pretty sympathetic to 'neo liberal' policy, but it's also pretty fair. It doesn't gloss over the fact that say, South Korea had tariffs or that government policy and spending plays a large role in influencing things.

It's also a very good (and very long) PBS series.


It should be mentioned that the company selling and extracting copper in Chile is state owned. It was nationalized under, you guessed it, Allende.

I support state ownership in cases where it's beneficial.



Examples?

Well, the back page of my Economist lists Russia at 6.5%, Poland at 5.8%, Hungary at 3.8%, and the Czech Republic at 5.8% GDP growth. That's not bad.

Interestingly, in Latin America you have Venezuala at 10.8% (oil), Peru at 7.4, , Mexico at 4.6, Colombia at 6, Chile and Brazil around 3, and Argentina at about 8.7% GDP growth. Again, all very respectable totals, though the countries run the gamut in terms of free trade. I guess that just shows that there isn't one 'right path'.

Karl Marx's Camel
28th January 2007, 16:38
Well, the back page of my Economist lists Russia at 6.5%, Poland at 5.8%,
If memory serves me right, Russia is in shit, and Poland has a high unemployment.



From 2001:

The official unemployment rate topped 15 per cent, the highest in four years, and analysts are warning that it could go as high as 20 per cent unless fundamental reforms take place.

http://www.ce-review.org/01/5/polandnews5.html


I think what we need to look at is the material conditions.

t_wolves_fan
29th January 2007, 14:15
Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2007 10:35 am
Thoughts?

Discuss.
Publius basically nailed it.

In those former communist countries and other developing countries with stable social institutions and governments, economic growth has been on the rise. Those countries in Central America, Africa and the former communist bloc that have significant corruption which results in less confidence in the market and hence less investment.

And I absolutely agree that there is no single best one-size-fits-all policy, aside from competent and corruption-free government.

Enragé
29th January 2007, 19:50
dont you think corruption is caused by capitalist mentality?

Capitalism doesnt encourage people to do anything but make money, to acquire more wealth, in other words capitalism doesnt judge on whether or not it is corruption or not which gets you the money, or even if its anti-free trade which gets you the money, as long as you get it!


Well, the back page of my Economist lists Russia at 6.5%, Poland at 5.8%, Hungary at 3.8%, and the Czech Republic at 5.8% GDP growth. That's not bad.

Interestingly, in Latin America you have Venezuala at 10.8% (oil), Peru at 7.4, , Mexico at 4.6, Colombia at 6, Chile and Brazil around 3, and Argentina at about 8.7% GDP growth. Again, all very respectable totals, though the countries run the gamut in terms of free trade. I guess that just shows that there isn't one 'right path'.


Cuba is at 7.5% according to the CIA factbook

not that bad either ;) 'specially with the whole boycott thing
(not that Cuba's communist, or socialist in any way. Its just not free-market now is it)

Guerrilla22
29th January 2007, 19:55
Neo-liberalism hasn't led to the rise in econmomic and social development in most countries in Latin America. Mexico really had no positive development since NAFTA. Guatemala, Nicaragua, Honduras, and El Salvador remain desperately impoverished, despite neo-liberal reforms and Argentina's economy completely collapsed back in 2001.

Publius
29th January 2007, 20:47
dont you think corruption is caused by capitalist mentality?

No, not really.

It can be, certainly, but it need not be.

I think you'll find that corruption is highest in countries with large, powerful states. The United States and Hong Kong, to pick out two archetypal 'capitalist' states had nothing like the corruption of, say, India or most Latin American countries under socialist government.



Capitalism doesnt encourage people to do anything but make money, to acquire more wealth, in other words capitalism doesnt judge on whether or not it is corruption or not which gets you the money, or even if its anti-free trade which gets you the money, as long as you get it!

You can't just 'be corrupt' in the abstract. In the real world being corrupt has serious costs, at least in first world countries.

Publius
29th January 2007, 20:48
Neo-liberalism hasn't led to the rise in econmomic and social development in most countries in Latin America. Mexico really had no positive development since NAFTA. Guatemala, Nicaragua, Honduras, and El Salvador remain desperately impoverished, despite neo-liberal reforms and Argentina's economy completely collapsed back in 2001.

I can agree with most of this.

But neo-liberalism, broadly, has had success elsewhere.

Enragé
29th January 2007, 21:42
I think you'll find that corruption is highest in countries with large, powerful states. The United States and Hong Kong, to pick out two archetypal 'capitalist' states had nothing like the corruption of, say, India or most Latin American countries under socialist government.

the US isnt that corrupt because basically its wealthy. You cannot compare 1st world countries to third world ones and say "HAH! thats it!".

Also, the idea of large, powerful states isnt anti-capitalist, or, it does not go against the core of capitalism; acquiring as much wealth as possible for yourself. If something called "the state", which in essence is nothing more than an armed body of men, helps you in that, why should you care?

Whether the hierarchy exists "politically" in the "state" or "economically" in companies, its all the same bullshit, and its always linked to eachother.


You can't just 'be corrupt' in the abstract. In the real world being corrupt has serious costs, at least in first world countries.


costs for certain people yes, like your boss, or the government, but not for the corrupt individual (unless you get arrested)

Publius
29th January 2007, 23:27
the US isnt that corrupt because basically its wealthy. You cannot compare 1st world countries to third world ones and say "HAH! thats it!".

You're missing my point and contradicting yourself.

If it was the 'capitalist mentality' that causes corruption, it wouldn't matter if it was a rich or poor country.



Also, the idea of large, powerful states isnt anti-capitalist, or, it does not go against the core of capitalism; acquiring as much wealth as possible for yourself. If something called "the state", which in essence is nothing more than an armed body of men, helps you in that, why should you care?

Except that's not what the Indian state, to use an example, did.

Your theory just doesn't match reality.



Whether the hierarchy exists "politically" in the "state" or "economically" in companies, its all the same bullshit, and its always linked to eachother.

Except when it isn't.



costs for certain people yes, like your boss, or the government, but not for the corrupt individual (unless you get arrested)

What are you talking about?

Do you honestly think if a 'boss' is caught embezzling money he won't be prosecuted? Or a government official?

I could probably name a half dozen Congressman that have been found guilty of taking bribes in the last few years.

They aren't above the law.

Enragé
30th January 2007, 14:55
You're missing my point and contradicting yourself.

If it was the 'capitalist mentality' that causes corruption, it wouldn't matter if it was a rich or poor country.

No, in a rich country there tends to be more government control, and the civil servants etc are less likely to be corrupted by sums of money since well, they're not living in shacks or anything.
You could point at that and say "hah, but dont they have a capitalist mentality?"
No, not completely, because people generally dont have a capitalist mentality, they're just affected by it and capitalist mentality is the dominant mentality, but that does not mean everyone is WH00T CAPITALISM


Except that's not what the Indian state, to use an example, did.

huh?
How does the indian state not help say the Coca Cola Company by beating down demonstrators who are protesting against Coca Cola sucking the earth dry and fucking up the fertility of the land?


Except when it isn't.[quote]

it cant not be linked, because money plays a big part in politics, and if big companies decide to leave a country, that country collapses.

[quote]Do you honestly think if a 'boss' is caught embezzling money he won't be prosecuted? Or a government official?

I could probably name a half dozen Congressman that have been found guilty of taking bribes in the last few years.

They aren't above the law.

"costs for certain people yes, like your boss, or the government, but not for the corrupt individual (unless you get arrested)"

hmm?

And as i said, government control is greater in rich countries.

also, isnt government control, you know, against the free market? ;)

t_wolves_fan
30th January 2007, 20:04
No, in a rich country there tends to be more government control,

We have less government control in the United States than do most countries, so you're incorrect.


and the civil servants etc are less likely to be corrupted by sums of money since well, they're not living in shacks or anything.

The average bureaucrat in Washington, DC probably makes around $60-$70K per year which does not go very far in the DC metro area.


You could point at that and say "hah, but dont they have a capitalist mentality?"
No, not completely, because people generally dont have a capitalist mentality, they're just affected by it and capitalist mentality is the dominant mentality, but that does not mean everyone is WH00T CAPITALISM

Except that the "get stuff" and "get ahead" mentalities have existed in just about every single social/economic system on earth throughout history. Even in Cuba they're wild about contraband movies from Hollywood.

You and your merry band like to pretend that if you just "correct" people enough, they won't be like that.

Enragé
30th January 2007, 20:22
We have less government control in the United States than do most countries, so you're incorrect.

different sort of government control. We're talking anti-crime control etc, catching people while doing corrupt things
not control over the economy.


The average bureaucrat in Washington, DC probably makes around $60-$70K per year which does not go very far in the DC metro area.


did i say they were rich as fuck? No, i said they werent living in shacks.


Except that the "get stuff" and "get ahead" mentalities have existed in just about every single social/economic system on earth throughout history.

err yea
and look how the earth turned out!
Bingo! You win the washing machine!


Even in Cuba they're wild about contraband movies from Hollywood.

Err yah
if someone told me i couldnt watch certain things I WOULD TRY TO WATCH IT.
And remind me again, how is cuba communist/socialist?


You and your merry band like to pretend that if you just "correct" people enough, they won't be like that

People will always like to have stuff that make their life easier, but having shit just for the sake of having it (im not talking necklesses here, im talking people wanting to have a ferrari cuz it makes them look cool), and getting what you want at any cost is not intrinsic to man.

t_wolves_fan
30th January 2007, 20:50
Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 08:22 pm

Except that the "get stuff" and "get ahead" mentalities have existed in just about every single social/economic system on earth throughout history.

err yea
and look how the earth turned out!
Bingo! You win the washing machine!


People are and should be free to make bad decisions.

Do you disagree?



You and your merry band like to pretend that if you just "correct" people enough, they won't be like that

People will always like to have stuff that make their life easier, but having shit just for the sake of having it (im not talking necklesses here, im talking people wanting to have a ferrari cuz it makes them look cool), and getting what you want at any cost is not intrinsic to man.

I don't know how you look at history and honestly come to that conclusion. What you're doing is looking at history and viewing it normatively, as if history is "wrong" and it's your duty to correct it.

Good luck.

Enragé
30th January 2007, 23:46
People are and should be free to make bad decisions.

Do you disagree?

like people made the choice to be oppressed

Like the serf thought "hmm, i'll toil for all my life on the land for my Lord, he'll get it all and eat till he pukes in his castle. Yes that seems like fun!"


I don't know how you look at history and honestly come to that conclusion. What you're doing is looking at history and viewing it normatively, as if history is "wrong" and it's your duty to correct it.


:huh:

I look around me, and see in a capitalist society the signs that man has the ability to transcend that society since many really dont give a fuck, and those who do most often are insecure and try to make up for it by buying shit.

t_wolves_fan
31st January 2007, 02:43
Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 11:46 pm

People are and should be free to make bad decisions.

Do you disagree?

like people made the choice to be oppressed

Like the serf thought "hmm, i'll toil for all my life on the land for my Lord, he'll get it all and eat till he pukes in his castle. Yes that seems like fun!"


We don't have serfdom anymore, so your first complaint is moot.


I look around me, and see in a capitalist society the signs that man has the ability to transcend that society since many really dont give a fuck, and those who do most often are insecure and try to make up for it by buying shit.

Many don't give a fuck, the rest are insecure and go after material gain, just like they have throughout history. So what? Is it your job to make them secure?

What is your point here?

Guerrilla22
31st January 2007, 19:38
Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 08:48 pm

Neo-liberalism hasn't led to the rise in econmomic and social development in most countries in Latin America. Mexico really had no positive development since NAFTA. Guatemala, Nicaragua, Honduras, and El Salvador remain desperately impoverished, despite neo-liberal reforms and Argentina's economy completely collapsed back in 2001.

I can agree with most of this.

But neo-liberalism, broadly, has had success elsewhere.
Its worked well for states that were already wealthy.

Councilman Doug
31st January 2007, 22:08
We don't have serfdom anymore

Our society has, however, developed from the feudal system. Capitalism is a development, albite a radical one, of feudalism and not a complete departure.

People are still born in to certain roles linked to their class, and most, even many who spend their lives working to climb the ladder, are not able to move to a more respected role.

Capitalism can only exist as it does with this hierarchy and only a radical change in how the economy is constructed will be able to alleviate this inequalty.

t_wolves_fan
1st February 2007, 20:02
Originally posted by Councilman [email protected] 31, 2007 10:08 pm
only a radical change in how the economy is constructed will be able to alleviate this inequalty.
Which isn't going to happen.

Enragé
3rd February 2007, 11:36
We don't have serfdom anymore, so your first complaint is moot.

we were talking historically
And capitalism isnt that much better.

We cry shame on the feudal baron who forbade the peasant to turn a clod of earth unless he surrendered to his lord a fourth of his crop. We call those the barbarous times. But if the forms have changed, the relations have remained the same, and the worker is forced, under the name of free contract, to accept feudal obligations. For, turn where he will, he can find no better conditions. Everything has become private property, and he must accept, or die of hunger.
- Kropotkin



What is your point here?

the point is that even in capitalist society, with all its incentives to basically be a bastard, you can still see that communism is possible.