Higher Education

[Mikhail Frunze]

Aren't those with a higher education class enemies? Because it is a fact that dumb people with the necessary financial means can land in college in contrast to smart people who are from the lower strata. Those with a higher education always end up as smug professionals with a disdain towards working class people. It would be impossible to forge a revolution if everyone works in the parasitical service sector employed as some advertising consultant in the downtown business district. What then is the need for a highe education? Primary education is essential but a higher education is rather worthless. Children instead ought to be employed in industry after completing compulsory primary education.

[Brownfist]

As someone with a "higher education" I would say no. This is because we (those with a "higher education" and are radical) believe that everyone should have access to higher education and recognize that there are institutional barriers to said education. Thus, we "higher education" radicals, try to create revolutionary/reformist movements with the universities to make it easier for people from the lower and lower-middle class, people of colour, women and trans-peoples, and disabled people to attend universities and gain a higher education.

The argument that you have made is actually very similar to that made by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. I think that this argument is erroneous for two reasons: 1) it assumes that all people with a higher education are anti-working class or not of the working-class (several of my friends are working-class), and does not recognize that in class struggle even Marx acknowledged that progressive sections of the petite-bourgeoisie will side with the proletariat and 2) because communism is a project that not only wants the withering away of the state and class structures but also wants the working-class to be no longer alienated, and be able to engage in intellectual labor both in the factory and outside. Marx recognizes that higher education and intellectual labor is not possible for the working class due to the economic means of production, and the alienation that arises from that.

What you are suggesting is the ultimate form of alienation in which the working-class remains completely intellectually alienated. I think that you are correct to note the class nature of higher education today, but I dont that higher education necessarily needs to be this way.

[peaccenicked]

Higher education is a misnomer, it is necessary for graduating the work force, it is intrinsic to the structure of capitalism. Education should not exist for class purposes but for human development. We should also make a distinction between class status and class viewpoint. No matter what position one has within capitalism it is possible to see that has an oppressive nature.

[Felicia]

(EDIT: eeeeehhhhh, Peaccenicked! How've you been!?)


Aren't those with a higher education class enemies?

Those with a higher education always end up as smug professionals with a disdain towards working class people.

Firsly, you asked a question, then you answered it. Secondly, you use the word 'always', as in "people with a higher education always end up as smug professionals..." This is not true. I have a very good friend, someone with two undergrad degree, a masters degree, and is an esl teacher after many years as a barista. Hardly "smug" in any sense of the word. I'm not being specific here either, it's a running joke that people who go to university end up working at a restaurant after their studying is over to try and pay off these loans cause they study things it's not easy to find a job in unless you become a teacher (like, philosophy, or history, what are you going to do employment wise with these if you don't teach?) .


It would be impossible to forge a revolution if everyone works in the parasitical service sector employed as some advertising consultant in the downtown business district.
I don't quite get what you are saying here.... the people in these power positions aren't generaly going to be the ones aiding in the revolution, do you forget how many people there are that are in the working/labour sector? Isn't it the workers who will form the revolutionary basis of any revolutionary movement?


What then is the need for a highe education? Primary education is essential but a higher education is rather worthless. Children instead ought to be employed in industry after completing compulsory primary education.
Child labour? Are you sure you want to be advocating this? The point of a higher education is to make big bucks, people have it in their minds that it's the only way to have a worthwile job/career, it's like a suburban dream, middle class job, middle class kids, a volkswagon and a husband, and don't forget the golden retriever. Education is not a sign of intelligence but a sign of either where you come from or where you want to go (social standing?). Children need to go through school, I think everyone should have atleast a highschool education. Not because of a job (although you wouldn't be doing yourself any favours by being 35 and working at mcdonalds) but because young minds need to develop, they need to be fed knowledge and ideas, they need to think about these things and either accept or reject these ideas and grow and develop as intelligent beings. Whether or not you agree with governemnt provided education, we all have learned and grown from it.

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

The fear is that people might accept all they are exposed to in college as gospel. Those people are dangerous in their blissfull ignorance. But others will be objective and will really learn, as opposed to just absorbing information.

I agree that education should be about our development as humans, and not as tools of the rich and powerful.

[Mikhail Frunze]

Child labour?

Sorry that I did not clarify. I meant children in the context of 17 to 18 year olds.

[Brownfist]

I think that 17/18 years olds should not be forced, or required to work. Rather, they should be allowed to engage with any kind of post-secondary education that they choose to, whether it be university, college, polytechnic, trades etc. I think that we need to deal with the commodification of higher education head on, rather than trying to blame the ills of capitalism on higher education. I recognize that the structure that currently higher education has taken is due to its commodification, but that is why in a communist society higher education will be very different, and proletarian in nature.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Originally posted by Brownfist
I think that 17/18 years olds should not be forced, or required to work. Rather, they should be allowed to engage with any kind of post-secondary education that they choose to, whether it be university, college, polytechnic, trades etc.
Hm..in that age, i was forced to work because of my family condition.And so i work for funding my school,i think you know exactly what's the condition in my homeland isn't it ;) ?so this is why i had to work until now, and i just stuck to High School Graduate.I can't even engage to a higher education because it's too expensive, and only the bourgeuis can pay. :(


Aren't those with a higher education class enemies? Because it is a fact that dumb people with the necessary financial means can land in college in contrast to smart people who are from the lower strata
i think they are.cause in fact, those dumb bourgeuis people will certainly can land in college or university,with somekind of bribe.i mean they paid just to land in the university their want <_< even if in IQ measure, they&#39;ll certainly don&#39;t fit in that University their choose.

[Brownfist]

Knight of Cydonia,
I know exactly the conditions of Indonesia. It is abysmal. I mean higher education in Indonesia does not mean anything there. This is because all of the companies would prefer to hire a foreigner rather, than an Indonesian, and I am not talking about the Indo-Chinese but all of the businesses in Indonesia. I have friends in Indonesia who have 2-3 degrees from higher institutions and they are forced to work as satpams and gardeners for the expatriates.

However, having said that I dont think the solution is to get rid of higher education. Rather, the goal should be a socialist revolution in society in which all people can access higher education and be able to engage in intellectual labor as well. I think by forcing people to work after 17/18 just makes an oppression of the working class by the bourgeoisie, the oppression of all. This is not a politics of liberation.

[Janus]

Aren&#39;t those with a higher education class enemies?
In the past,yes, higher education was certainly synonymous with the elites and ruling class. However, as higher education is more readily available to lower class students due to scholarships, financial aid,etc. I think that we should see it as a positive thing. Not only in that education is key to human development and progress itself but that education is key to providing a well-educated and progressive proletarian force is not only key to a successful revolution but also a successful revolutionary society.

[Mikhail Frunze]

Well, I strongly approve of primary and secondary education. Above all, self-education by constantly reading during one&#39;s spare time is most important. While a higher education is relatively of easier access to the working class than in the past, the irrefutable fact is that wealthier kids with an inferior IQ are much more likely to attend college than poorer kids with a high IQ Those with a higher education are at the least part of the petit-bourgeois middle and upper classes. These types don&#39;t attain a higher education for learning but rather because of careerism. Examples of those that are genuinely interested in becoming educated and entering a career which is immensely helpful to society are public school teachers and librarians. But in America, the area which is studied most in higher education is business.

[CrimsonTide]

Of course not, in fact, there are a great variety of Leftists and even Communists and Anarchists in places of higher education. It&#39;s my belief that in a Communist society, people should go to college for free.

However, we should focus on different things at an earlier age before college even starts, especially skills (plumbing, computer repair, electrical engineering, etc.) and Languages, which will help people (A: actually walk out of schools with skills they can use immediately, and (B: develop closer relations with their foreign Comrades and help to break down the language barrier.

[lithium]

Originally posted by Mikhail [email protected] 28, 2007 05:16 am
Aren&#39;t those with a higher education class enemies?
No. In my country all education is free, from primary, through secondary, to third-level. So regardless of what a person&#39;s social standing is, it is possible for them to have a higher education.

Also, there are grants available who are on the lower ends of the income scale to help with books, materials, living expenses (if living away from home).

You&#39;ll also find that many third-level institutions are filled with leftists&#33; There was at one stage a Revolutionary Left society in my university.


Those with a higher education always end up as smug professionals with a disdain towards working class people.

I&#39;m studying astronomy, and the only work available here in the field is research work. Astronomers here don&#39;t work for any profit-making companies; they receive government funding to carry out research and develop our understanding of the field. I&#39;m sure the same applies to any purely research-based career.

Also, are working professionals not working class anyway? If they&#39;re stuck in an office or attending business meetings or whatever, they&#39;re making profits for someone else, a capitalist company, not themselves.

[Brownfist]

Theoretically, I think that it would be difficult to just lump any large and diverse population as being a "class enemy". I mean even within the petite bourgeoisie you will find progressive and revolutionary sections that will support the proletariat.

I think that we also need to problematize our notion of "higher education", because would not the education of the party also be considered higher education. I am talking about education that the party may conduct on numerous issues including history, politics, economy, sociology etc. Indeed in the USSR and China there were numerous institutions in which people could access proletarian higher education.

[Kia]

Aren&#39;t those with a higher education class enemies?
Sure some turn out to be enemies of the proletariat but others turn out to be the very theorists that create the political systems we believe in. Karl Marx for instance attended what we would call a "higher education" school (aka college, university, etc..) do we call him a class enemy? I think not.
The sad thing is, that it is not avialable to everyone. Everyone should have the oppurtunity to pursue higher education and gain the knowledge they wish to seek. We should not be against higher education at all but rather the fact that it isnt readly available to everyone. We should work to push our governments to provide more money for education allowing for anyone to attend college or unviersty.
In the USA higher education is not readly avialable for everyone though it is pretty easy to attend a community college (which I do). Im really sorry that some of you are unable to attend a college/trade school/university/etc... because you have to work to support your family...that is the problem of capitalism and the government your currently living under rather then higher education.

For the lucky ones who are able to go to such schools we should make it part of our jobs as students to make sure our schools allow people from all class levels to attend.


Higher education is not the class enemy.

[Brownfist]

However, I do think that it is important to discuss how higher education reproduces capitalism. I mean through that discussion we could actually start to discuss the university as, what Althusser refers to, one of the numerous ideological state apparatuses that exist in our society. Having said then what becomes necessary is anti-hegemonic space in which higher education can be pursued.

Community colleges it seems to me is a means by which to divide labour, so that people according to class, race, gender etc. are forced into specific kinds of organizations and institutions in which they can learn specific skill sets, so that they can reproduce the means of production in capitalist society.

[Guerrilla22]

Numerous students work in solidarity with the working class and believe or not quite a few college graduates end up as working class individuals. Actually only about 30% of the US population actually has a college degree.

[benjaminbarker]

People should not have to pay for higher education, if they do then only those who can afford it will receive it and knowledge will be hoarded largely among the rich. In the context of a soceity where your education is directly proportional to your income, then higher education is relatively deleterious to humanity. However, in an ideal society where all school is paid for, higher education becomes an opportunity for anyone to gain new perspectives and knowledge. In that context, higher education is a keystone to the intellectual development of society.

[dannthraxxx]

I dont think a person reaching for higher education is a class enemy. Higher Education should exist for the sole purpose of helping younger people educate themselves and form opinions/ideas about things around them, without bias of course. Also, I dont think just because a person is going to school to become a lawyer, teacher, or whatever, that they have in mind to further perpetuate the cycle of capitalism and social classing. Some of course do it for this reason, however, some do it for moral reasons, etc. You can always find that one kid in college hoping to become a lawyer simply because he wants to bring about change or fight for civil rights...what have you. In the current system, becoming an attorney would be one of the few ways to fight the system within the system. Or becoming a teacher would be one of the few ways to help kids form better ideas or teach them to think for themselves, although the board of education/government control over education makes this quite hard seeing as how most teachers are stuck with a strict set of teaching limits, guidelines.

The problem occurs when activists, leftists, or what have you, lose sight of their goal in college, or become intertwined in the workings of the capitalist social elitist bullshit that most colleges tend to advocate.


I dont know, just rambling.

[dannthraxxx]

Oh, and I also agree that higher education should be free. The price of college is fucking ridiculous in the United States. However, you can always further educate yourself without going to college or secondary school. Libraries have books you can read for free, the internet is a vast source of information, not to mention its quite easy to just go to a barnes and noble and steal some books. Not to mention you can find college class schedules online, you can always catch a class and sit in. Its not hard, I&#39;ve done it several times, you just wonder in, sit in back of the class and pay attention, try to bring about little attention as possible, or you can start trouble and argue with the professors, its quite entertaining if you have free-time.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by Mikhail [email protected] 28, 2007 05:16 am
Primary education is essential but a higher education is rather worthless.
Essential to whom?

Is "capital" the hidden subject in your sentence, perchance?

And, no, primary education is not essential.

In fact, people with a primary education are smug idiots with a contempt for illiterate workers; only illiterate people are truely revolutionaries.


Children instead ought to be employed in industry after completing compulsory primary education.

To produce surplus value?

Are you a class enemy?

Luís Henrique

[Mikhail Frunze]

In fact, people with a primary education are smug idiots with a contempt for illiterate workers

No such thing. Illiteracy these days only exists in rural populations. And of course peasants do not belong to the proletariat. Communism can only be achieved when rural idiocy is no longer widespread.

In industrial countries the poorest people at least partially have a primary education. Thus there is nothing special about having attended compulsory schooling. Those with a bachelor&#39;s degree and higher are the ones that compose the petit-bourgeois intelligentsia.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by Mikhail [email protected] 11, 2007 06:29 am
Illiteracy these days only exists in rural populations.
Yes... these days. Which means, this was not the situation a hundred years ago. Things change, you see. There is nothing wrong with college education now, just as there was nothing wrong with knowing to read and write a century ago.


And of course peasants do not belong to the proletariat. Communism can only be achieved when rural idiocy is no longer widespread.

And what about urban idiocy?

Luís Henrique

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Tell me, if everyone was forced into manual labour at the age of 17 or 18, how would we research new cures for diseases, how would we design structurally sound buildings or bridges, or efficient machines?

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Not even 17 or 18. Following primary education, i.e. twelve year olds.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 04:21 pm
Tell me, if everyone was forced into manual labour at the age of 17 or 18, how would we research new cures for diseases, how would we design structurally sound buildings or bridges, or efficient machines?
I suppose cure for diseases or bridges are bourgeois.

But, of course, his sentences have always a missing subject: capital.

Luís Henrique