che and vanguardism - was che an elitist?

[peaccenicked]

"Then came the stage of guerrilla struggle. It developed in two distinct elements: the people, the still sleeping mass which it was necessary to mobilize; and its vanguard, the guerrillas, the motor force of the movement, the generator of revolutionary consciousness and militant enthusiasm. It was this vanguard, this catalyzing agent, which created the subjective conditions necessary for victory."
from Man and Socialism cuba
The charge that vanguardism equals elitism
is common anarchist, 'left' communist MUDSLINGING
that attempts to abolish the character of the revolutionary party to set up a structure that can only work in ideal conditions and is open to police infiltration.

[El Che]

Vanguardism has its place, that is to say it is a valid option in certain situations. However we must always walk towards democracy as the "less bad" of all political systems. The trouble is that some, having arrived at the frist stage, decide to go no further...

(Edited by El Che at 8:39 pm on Feb. 14, 2002)

[Supermodel]

Elitist, yes.
Placing people into intellectual "classes" yes.
Bureaucracy, yes
Smacks of religion, yes


However, somebody has to be in charge. And somebody has to clean the toilet. C'est la vie.

[peaccenicked]

Supermodel, Do you think elitism is a value system
or a comparative method. I would say it is primaraly the former.you can compare people without treating them as second class when all you might have had was a bit more luck. there but for fortune.
According to the 'elitist' Lenin.........leaders have to clean the toilet too.
There is a difference between examining real differences and elitism.

(Edited by peaccenicked at 1:21 pm on Feb. 15, 2002)

[Supermodel]

Certainly elitism has a negative tone to it. I have indeed cleaned my fair share of toilets.

I was talking to my far-right husband last night about Cuba and he pointed out that Castro isn't looking skinny these days, like the poor people of Cuba.

This gets back to our discussion of the nature of man. The alpha male will always look to be in the group that is in charge (or start a revolution against it) and the alpha female will seek out the alpha male as a mate. The little I've read on Che's rationale for a vanguard came no where near explaining that the vanguard doesn't break down the everybody's-equal doctrine.

[peaccenicked]

The problem is it that vanguardism does tend to break down the equality problem. Marxists have given this a name, bureaucratisation. Vanguardists see it differently,
some ignore it them we call bureaucrats (+bastards)
some see it as an never ending swapping of bureaucrats
them we call carreerist (+bastards)
the true and faithful see it as an enemy that must be cut from the heart of the movement with vigilance
and maximum accountability.
an ideal but necessary struggle.

[Rosa]

peaccenick: are you some professor or what? I mean: how fast can you skip from one theme to another? And how all of theese themes are produced in your brain for such a short time? Using something, or am I poisoned with somethitng that makes me so slow? Will try to catch you (sn't imp. if I catch you, but good solution for mesuring my own speed) (...and yet...'ll try it tomorrow)