What's the DOW and NASDAQ?

[R_P_A_S]

what's all this stuff? I know very little about it. and how is it relevant to the working class. does it affect us at all? or this just numbers for the bourgeoisie?

[which doctor]

It's the stock market.

People buy when the numbers are low, and sell when the numbers are high. It's primarily for the bourgeoisie and the petty-bourgeoisie, however some employers offer stock option plans to their employees.

[Demogorgon]

They are indexes to measure the stock market as it rises and falls. They take a certain number of top performing companies and examine the changes in their share prices and alter the indexes appropriately.

What relevance does it have to us? Well unfortunately a lot of people suffer from it because investors aren't too worried about the social costs of their investments if you know what I mean.

[CheRev]

The working class is highly effected by the performance of stock markets around the world. Many of their pensions are tied in to these and if the market is doing badly the employee will have less money when he/she retires. The opposite is also true.

Also if a company's individual shares are doing badly then the company may let go of workers to cut costs, improve profits and get the share price back up.

So the stock market has a big influence on the lives of workers.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2007 06:51 pm
The working class is highly effected by the performance of stock markets around the world. Many of their pensions are tied in to these and if the market is doing badly the employee will have less money when he/she retires. The opposite is also true.

Also if a company's individual shares are doing badly then the company may let go of workers to cut costs, improve profits and get the share price back up.

So the stock market has a big influence on the lives of workers.
ok. so doesn't the stock marker tie in with foreign investors? now with all these global companies?
in socialism. will the stock market be relevant. I still don't entirely get it. to me it just seems like its all about the companies and rich people. I understand some workers have pensions and some are given stock options. but is not like they are gaining as much as their bosses on em'

[ComradeRed]

so doesn't the stock marker tie in with foreign investors? It ties in with all investors of the U$ stock market, foreign or domestic.


now with all these global companies? I am unfamiliar the workings of international firms in the various (foreign and domestic) stock markets. Perhaps someone who has studied bourgeois finance economics would know?


in socialism. will the stock market be relevant. Depends how you define socialism. If there will be private enterprise, then the stock market would still exist. If not, then it would cease to exist.


I still don't entirely get it. to me it just seems like its all about the companies and rich people. I understand some workers have pensions and some are given stock options. but is not like they are gaining as much as their bosses on em' No one really "gets it". But you are correct, it is basically a function of the performance of "well performed" stocks...which is a useless indicator.

Just an aside: most bourgeois economic indicators are useless! (Most or should I say all?)

[razboz]

Could someone clarify exactly what a stock option is and how it determines the fate of the company?

EDIT: also is the stock market just an indication? Or do the actual stocks have an actual net value? DO they represent a "piece" of the firm or company?

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2007 08:38 pm
Depends how you define socialism. If there will be private enterprise, then the stock market would still exist. If not, then it would cease to exist.

I disagree here. YOu see private enterprise does not require a stock market. Stock is only traded for publicly traded comppanies. That is ones where ownership is up for anyone with money. This is utterly incompatible with socialism, because it means ownership of a company is determined simply by who has the money to pay for it.

On the other hand, firms which are not publicly traded do not appear on the stock market. This is the case for many small firms and a few larger ones. Potentially that could exist if Socialism kept private enterprise.

[ComradeRed]

Originally posted by Demagorgon+--> (Demagorgon)YOu see private enterprise does not require a stock market. Stock is only traded for publicly traded comppanies. That is ones where ownership is up for anyone with money. This is utterly incompatible with socialism, because it means ownership of a company is determined simply by who has the money to pay for it.[/b] You read too literally what I said, private enterprise as opposed to where the workers control the means of production.

NOT your "publicly traded companies" scheme.


razboyz
Could someone clarify exactly what a stock option is and how it determines the fate of the company? It's choosing to be paid in terms of shares of stock rather than money.


EDIT: also is the stock market just an indication? Or do the actual stocks have an actual net value? DO they represent a "piece" of the firm or company? The stock market is supposed to be an indicator for the bourgeois economist; however, it is a really bad indicator since it does not measure a damn thing.

A share of stock, in theory, is supposed to represent a part of a company. In practice, when a firm issues stocks, usually 50+% of it is controlled by a single fellow, and the rest is sold to raise money for the company.

[RevMARKSman]

QUOTE
EDIT: also is the stock market just an indication? Or do the actual stocks have an actual net value? DO they represent a "piece" of the firm or company?
The stock market is supposed to be an indicator for the bourgeois economist; however, it is a really bad indicator since it does not measure a damn thing.

A share of stock, in theory, is supposed to represent a part of a company. In practice, when a firm issues stocks, usually 50+% of it is controlled by a single fellow, and the rest is sold to raise money for the company.

Yeah. Essentially, companies divide up their cumulative profits into any number of shares. If the company makes less, the shares are worth less. You intend to buy shares when they are cheap and sell them when they are more expensive. When everybody's profit suddenly goes down, that can be called a stock market crash.

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2007 09:40 pm
You read too literally what I said, private enterprise as opposed to where the workers control the means of production.

NOT your "publicly traded companies" scheme.

Well even if you do have enterprise like that under socialism, you still can't have a stock market, because only companies privately owned would be possible, not ones open to the whole ruling class. The difference between publicly traded and non publicly rtraded private companies is a current one, not a proposed one.

[ComradeRed]

Originally posted by Demogorgon+January 28, 2007 03:47 pm--> (Demogorgon @ January 28, 2007 03:47 pm)
[email protected] 28, 2007 09:40 pm
You read too literally what I said, private enterprise as opposed to where the workers control the means of production.

NOT your "publicly traded companies" scheme.

Well even if you do have enterprise like that under socialism, you still can't have a stock market, because only companies privately owned would be possible, not ones open to the whole ruling class. [/b]
Yes, that's exactly my point!

Socialism, though, is simply capitalism without the capitalists...as opposed to the emancipation of wage slavery, which is what communists should be seeking. So having shares of stock may be feasible in socialism, but a stock market would not exist (in theory).

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by ComradeRed+January 29, 2007 04:15 am--> (ComradeRed @ January 29, 2007 04:15 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2007 03:47 pm

ComradeRe[email protected] 28, 2007 09:40 pm
You read too literally what I said, private enterprise as opposed to where the workers control the means of production.

NOT your "publicly traded companies" scheme.

Well even if you do have enterprise like that under socialism, you still can't have a stock market, because only companies privately owned would be possible, not ones open to the whole ruling class.
Yes, that's exactly my point!

Socialism, though, is simply capitalism without the capitalists...as opposed to the emancipation of wage slavery, which is what communists should be seeking. So having shares of stock may be feasible in socialism, but a stock market would not exist (in theory). [/b]
Yeah but I think the idea of shares is very much one of the key problems with capitalism. It is the primary means by which they monopolise control over production. I just don't see how they could be retained under socialism.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

I dont want to derail this thread but...

The "market" and the stock market are two different things right?

the "market" is meant to mean a group of people who are well informed rational wealth maximisers. Is that correct?

And is the stock market, the same, in that the stock brockers are the "market" and buy goods when cheap and sell when high?

Is that what they meant they they call it a stock market?

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 06:04 pm
I dont want to derail this thread but...

The "market" and the stock market are two different things right?

the "market" is meant to mean a group of people who are well informed rational wealth maximisers. Is that correct?

And is the stock market, the same, in that the stock brockers are the "market" and buy goods when cheap and sell when high?

Is that what they meant they they call it a stock market?
Well you get markets in all sorts of things "The market" is just neo-Liberal newspeak for, let money control things. Stock markets are just one kind of market, in this case dealing with the trade of stocks and shares.

[chimx]

I told my parents to invest in RMBS years ago when I was in highschool. Then 6 months later its trading value increased 10 fold. I could have been rich, but instead I am not. :(

[BreadBros]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 06:04 pm
I dont want to derail this thread but...

The "market" and the stock market are two different things right?

the "market" is meant to mean a group of people who are well informed rational wealth maximisers. Is that correct?

And is the stock market, the same, in that the stock brockers are the "market" and buy goods when cheap and sell when high?

Is that what they meant they they call it a stock market?
The market could just mean any kind of "free market" where the trade of goods takes place. Its somewhat of an vague concept, the overall American economy in its totality could be referred to as a market. The stock market refers to a very definite thing, a centralized trading place where shares (or "stocks") of a public (owned by shareholders, not private investors) company are bought and sold by authorized traders/brokers. A stock market is generally a private entity itself.

Dow Jones is a company that provides financial publications to inform investors, it publishes a newspaper called the Wall Street Journal among others. The Dow Jones Industrial Average is an index or tracking of the performance of the 30 biggest American industrial stocks. Its a gauge of how the New York Stock Exchange is doing as a whole.

NASDAQ is another stock exchange located in New York, its unique because all of the trading is done electronically unlike the NYSE where there are traders in an actual building.

[R_P_A_S]

where the hell can i learn about this step by step. this shit is just confusing. is there like "the market for dummies?"

[Honggweilo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2007 01:41 am
what's all this stuff? I know very little about it. and how is it relevant to the working class. does it affect us at all? or this just numbers for the bourgeoisie?
Its the heart of the financing capital, its where the bourgeois who already have more then they can spend speculate and get rich sleeping (or loose al their capital by a fatal mistake, that would profit another fat cat). Its almost impossible to make any money of obligations/stocks/ect for the common worker because 1. he does not have to money 2. he is probably not "financialy viable" for a loan. The Stockmarket is thus an extra tool to keep the mean of production in to the hands of the few.

Stocks are sold to get companies started of prevent them from going bankrupt. The people who buy stock therefore get a share in the company. Its basically a device to keep the capitalist machine oiled, and for capitalists to keep each other in check.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by ddxt301+January 30, 2007 02:01 am--> (ddxt301 @ January 30, 2007 02:01 am)
[email protected] 27, 2007 01:41 am
what's all this stuff? I know very little about it. and how is it relevant to the working class. does it affect us at all? or this just numbers for the bourgeoisie?
Its the heart of the financing capital, its where the bourgeois who already have more then they can spend speculate and get rich sleeping (or loose al their capital by a fatal mistake, that would profit another fat cat). Its almost impossible to make any money of obligations/stocks/ect for the common worker because 1. he does not have to money 2. he is probably not "financialy viable" for a loan. The Stockmarket is thus an extra tool to keep the mean of production in to the hands of the few.

Stocks are sold to get companies started of prevent them from going bankrupt. The people who buy stock therefore get a share in the company. Its basically a device to keep the capitalist machine oiled, and for capitalists to keep each other in check. [/b]
an other thing i dont get. and I'm sure im just confused with the terminology. but obviously this stock is dealing with "private" companies. ok well how come they can't go on the market unless they go "public"

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by R_P_A_S+January 30, 2007 04:19 am--> (R_P_A_S @ January 30, 2007 04:19 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 02:01 am

[email protected] 27, 2007 01:41 am
what's all this stuff? I know very little about it. and how is it relevant to the working class. does it affect us at all? or this just numbers for the bourgeoisie?
Its the heart of the financing capital, its where the bourgeois who already have more then they can spend speculate and get rich sleeping (or loose al their capital by a fatal mistake, that would profit another fat cat). Its almost impossible to make any money of obligations/stocks/ect for the common worker because 1. he does not have to money 2. he is probably not "financialy viable" for a loan. The Stockmarket is thus an extra tool to keep the mean of production in to the hands of the few.

Stocks are sold to get companies started of prevent them from going bankrupt. The people who buy stock therefore get a share in the company. Its basically a device to keep the capitalist machine oiled, and for capitalists to keep each other in check.
an other thing i dont get. and I'm sure im just confused with the terminology. but obviously this stock is dealing with "private" companies. ok well how come they can't go on the market unless they go "public" [/b]
There is a difference between ppublic companies (that is state owned ones) and publicly traded (also known as floated) companies.

Private companies can be owned by various individuals who set them up or by them or whatever. However they can also float themeselves on the stock market and open themselves up to the "public" by selling shares and allowing these shares to be bought and sold at will on the stock market.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by Demogorgon+January 30, 2007 06:36 am--> (Demogorgon @ January 30, 2007 06:36 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 04:19 am

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 02:01 am

[email protected] 27, 2007 01:41 am
what's all this stuff? I know very little about it. and how is it relevant to the working class. does it affect us at all? or this just numbers for the bourgeoisie?
Its the heart of the financing capital, its where the bourgeois who already have more then they can spend speculate and get rich sleeping (or loose al their capital by a fatal mistake, that would profit another fat cat). Its almost impossible to make any money of obligations/stocks/ect for the common worker because 1. he does not have to money 2. he is probably not "financialy viable" for a loan. The Stockmarket is thus an extra tool to keep the mean of production in to the hands of the few.

Stocks are sold to get companies started of prevent them from going bankrupt. The people who buy stock therefore get a share in the company. Its basically a device to keep the capitalist machine oiled, and for capitalists to keep each other in check.
an other thing i dont get. and I'm sure im just confused with the terminology. but obviously this stock is dealing with "private" companies. ok well how come they can't go on the market unless they go "public"
There is a difference between ppublic companies (that is state owned ones) and publicly traded (also known as floated) companies.

Private companies can be owned by various individuals who set them up or by them or whatever. However they can also float themeselves on the stock market and open themselves up to the "public" by selling shares and allowing these shares to be bought and sold at will on the stock market. [/b]
ok so stockholders.. are the owners of the private companies that are public? lol

[chimx]

1. he does not have to money 2. he is probably not "financialy viable" for a loan. The Stockmarket is thus an extra tool to keep the mean of production in to the hands of the few.

Lolz. Yeah, working class people never get loans. You sound like you know a lot of workers.


ok so stockholders.. are the owners of the private companies that are public? lol

Yup! When you hear about a company giving employees stock options, that is giving them shares in the company, i.e. partial ownership.

--

The best way to learn about the stock market is to invest in it. Goto finance.yahoo.com and sign up for an account. You can create a mock portfolio and see how your fake investments do. I haven't checked mine in a year, but lets see where I am at now...

Crap, I lost $7 after having invested about #350. If I was smart I would have invested in google.

On the brighter side, my "real life" mutual fund is up to well over $5500. Woot!

Edit Add: I checked, and apparently one of the companies I invested in was involved in a merger, resulting in my share value to change. I'm actually up $20. I rock.

[R_P_A_S]

so being in the stock market just as bad as being a capitalist and exploited your workers?

[Honggweilo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 09:06 am
so being in the stock market just as bad as being a capitalist and exploited your workers?
even worse, speculation and buying stock is a about luck and insight. Its like sitting on your ass, watch statistics and call your bookie once in a while. Its all about investing in profitable enterprises. If the market value of a company goes down or the outcome of its profits dont look so good, people wont invest in a company. Its like an research bureau that determens the quality of an company, ensuring "survival of the fitest" in the capitalist system.

Besides real estate, the stockmarket is an elitist way to double the money you already have, like a savings account, only more complicated.

The succes of companies of often determent by their investors (if a company needs money, the set part of their ownership into stocks, so that people can buy a bit of their company). Often state/public companies privatize due to neo-liberal policy, and have to compete with larger companies that only have an eye for profit. Because of this they have to cut wage, increase prices, and fire their workers. If they dont, then nobody will invest in them and then they will go bankrupt. Quickly, alot of state enterprise are heading these way due to the neo-liberal policies forced by institutions like the WorldBank, IMF, WTO, European Union. Also by agreements like the NAFTA, Lissabon Agenda ect..