Fidel Castro Video

[Journeyman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7oK3zj1vd4

Everyone please look at this video. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a leader who preaches austerism and neglect of luxury supposed to be the prime example of this way of life? In that five part video Fidel Castro is clearly seen enjoying comforts inaccessible to his population. Expensive 700$ wines and shrimp among other things.

The woman in the video (ex girlfriend of one of Fidel's sons) went through great difficulty to reveal this video, since security measures in Castro's secret home are very strict.

That other world leaders of capitalist countries are also enjoying luxuries beyond that of Fidel is a moot point, since they are openly capitalistic.

If Fidel had been living like Ghandi, then this would be another story. But it's not.

Now please explain this to me.

[RedAnarchist]

Will you at least look at previous threads in the OI subforum, because capitalists have come here time and time again with their questions.


As for Castro, as many, if not most, members of this board are anarchists of some sort, we don't support nations, so we don't support Cuba.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Wow, I thought that video was a lie. Thanks!

But I don't trust the channel. They invite Huber Matos to the show?

[Journeyman]

Great. What's the OI forum?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Opposing ideologies.

[Journeyman]

A lie? Who told you it was a lie?

What is your reaction to this?

But anyway, the point is that IS Castro and he's enjoying luxuries not accessible to his population

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Who told you it was a lie?

No one. I assumed it was some sort of shit the exile-cubans had made up.



But anyway, the point is that IS Castro and he's enjoying luxuries not accessible to his population

True!

[Journeyman]

Well? Well? what is your reaction then? are you shocked? what do you think of Fidel now? Do you still think he is true to his ideology?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

More of this bullshit? How many times does this sort of thing have to be responded to?

From an earlier post (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=57890&st=50#):

This bourgeois lie (started by the capitalists behind Fortune magazine, which made based their bullshit on the entire wealth of Cuba... in otherwords, they took the entire wealth of Cuba, and said "Fidel owns all of that, so that's all his wealth"), has been refuted so many times on here I can barely stand to do it again.

Even by the admission of Cuba's enemies, the leadership of the Cuban government has very little privilege..

"They [Fidel's family] have privileged positions but they don't seem to have many luxuries ... certainly not like the `juniors' in Mexico,'' said Latell, referring to the Mexican slang for rich kids."

...

" Fidel Castro and wife Dalia live in a two-house complex in western Havana. The living room of the main house is described by visitors as furnished with simple wood and leather sofas and chairs and Cuban handicrafts. "

"The only luxury visible to visitors, said Fuentes, is a big-screen television that Castro uses to satisfy his interest in foreign news reports and videos secretly recorded by Cuba's intelligence services."

...

"The houses of Fidel and Raúl are large but simply appointed."

...

"An acquaintance who has visited both Fidel and Raúl's homes described them as very large by Cuban standards but relatively simply appointed with Cuban-made furniture, with Raúl's home ``a bit nicer than Fidel's.''

...

"I think that when this [Cuban revolution] ends ... most people in Miami will be surprised by their low level of life.''

"Added exile author Norberto Fuentes: ``The most avaricious cabinet minister lives no better than the average Cuban in Miami. He has one car, not two. An air conditioner in the car? No air conditioner.'' - Source (Anti-communist Miami Herald) (http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/fidel/castro-family.htm)

&

"Some ordinary Cubans grumble about privileges they perceive to be enjoyed by their leaders, but few express the opinion that there is widespread corruption at top government level. " - Source (AP article) (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=45498&hl=)

And yes, Cuba is a poor country.. but with what it has, it's managed to create a society with the lowest HPI (human poverty index) in the third world. Check it out.. (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/cuba/poverty.html)

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I have known for some time that he enjoys luxuries ordinary Cubans do not have. No suprise there. But I had not imagined he lived in something like that, no.

[manic expression]

There's more disinformation over Cuba than almost any other topic in the US. Univision isn't exactly the source I would trust first (maybe for futbol, but not much else).

To me, it seems very suspect, at best. IMO, it isn't damning.

[Journeyman]

The wine. It's a 700$ bottle of wine. Focus on explaining that please. What's a 700$ bottle of wine doing there.

[manic expression]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 07:06 pm
The wine. It's a 700$ bottle of wine. Focus on explaining that please. What's a 700$ bottle of wine doing there.
First, see CDL's post.

Secondly, you mean the bottle of wine on the table at 3:40? I can't exactly focus on something that I can neither see nor verify reasonably.

Lastly, anyone could see a good number of reasons why they would have a bottle of wine there.

[R_P_A_S]

im not defending Fidel but why do mothafuckas think that just because you are a communist or socialist you cant have a nice dinner, nice table. or eat fine food? fuck out of here.

[RevolutionaryMarxist]

So?

I'd ask you to name one world leader who doesn't do that. Most do it way more than him most likely.

Besides, if theres a abundance of such resources, it would be a waste not to use them. (Shrimp = Cuba = Coast = Not really a Luxury? Considering the US has a embargo so they can't ship it out.)

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I am not defending nor attacking, but I just want to point out that what is seen on that tape is not how an ordinary Cuban live. That is lightyears away from the average Cuban standard.

It actually reminds me of the home of a very wealthy bourgeois U.S. family I happened by chance to visit as a child.

[MrDoom]

Shouldn't this be moved to OI, since the guy's restricted now and unable to reply?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I split the posts on Journeyman to a thread in the members' forum.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 07:35 pm
im not defending Fidel but why do mothafuckas think that just because you are a communist or socialist you cant have a nice dinner, nice table. or eat fine food? fuck out of here.
Yeah, alot of people .. especially petty-bourgeois "socialists"... say this sort of shit.

While we should avoid pointless consumerism, communism is about material abundance, not "austerity." The fact that some things are lacking in Cuba is a result of the real life situation there, with it being an isolated socialist country under blockade by the most powerful country in world history, etc. It's not a communist principle or anything.

As for Fidel's supposed privilege, see my earlier post.

[shadowed by the secret police]

Is the author of this post a troll account? What luxuries does that video depict. That Castro enjoys a hearty table? That he has an air conditioner instead of a central ac system? That he has some parrots? Wow. Thanks for the political epiphany. Compare Castro's luxuries with the ones enjoyed by the leader of Dominican Republic and other nations in the region and you will find that Castro's "extravagance" pales in comparison. Compare Castro's lifestyle with the one enjoyed by Bush!

You want to see some real luxuries. Check this link out and click enter

www.johnmcmonigle.com

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 07:35 pm
im not defending Fidel but why do mothafuckas think that just because you are a communist or socialist you cant have a nice dinner, nice table. or eat fine food? fuck out of here.
Because the vast majority of Cuban workers can't enjoy those luxuries.

[shadowed by the secret police]

The vast majority of Americans do not enjoy the luxuries of the White House and other nations as well. Castro's compound is small in comparison. Fuck off!!!!!

[manic expression]

Originally posted by Tatanka Iyotank+January 24, 2007 10:29 pm--> (Tatanka Iyotank @ January 24, 2007 10:29 pm)
[email protected] 24, 2007 07:35 pm
im not defending Fidel but why do mothafuckas think that just because you are a communist or socialist you cant have a nice dinner, nice table. or eat fine food? fuck out of here.
Because the vast majority of Cuban workers can't enjoy those luxuries. [/b]
EVEN IF the video is legitimate (which is not clear at all, and if you consider the amount of BS on Cuba and Castro that's out there, chances are that it is not legitimate), the "luxuries" were pretty minor.

A grainy video of a bottle of wine isn't exactly damning evidence.

[Phalanx]

The vast majority of Americans do not enjoy the luxuries of the White House and other nations as well. Castro's compound is small in comparison.

And where did I say that? Do you think I'm blind to the workers' plight in America as well?

You need to get rid of that hero-worship phase. Castro is a dictator who doesn't represent the workers. Hopefully the Cuban people will overthrow his dinosaur of a brother and set up a true workers society.

[shadowed by the secret police]

I'm not hero-worshipping anyone. The propaganda is that they want Castro to live like anyone else so they can easily assassinate him.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I have seen inside cuban homes with my own eyes and I can tell you what Fidel and his family have is pure luxury.

That looks more like a luxury resort.


The propaganda is that they want Castro to live like anyone else so they can easily assassinate him.

So instead when the yankees invade Cuba he can arrange a guerilla ambush from his lush garden?

[shadowed by the secret police]

Where is Castro to receive leaders of foreign countries so they can feel reasonably safe from terrorist assassins? In a hut made of straw? This is nonsense. Remember that Miami's Cubans are training in the Everglades to kill and wage war! Did you not see the video "600 ways to Kill Castro" put out by the BBC

[manic expression]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 10:50 pm
I have seen inside cuban homes with my own eyes and I can tell you what Fidel and his family have is pure luxury.

That looks more like a luxury resort.


The propaganda is that they want Castro to live like anyone else so they can easily assassinate him.

So instead when the yankees invade Cuba he can arrange a guerilla ambush from his lush garden?
See CDL's posts. All the reliable sources say that Castro does not live in luxury.

[shadowed by the secret police]

This is sand thrown into the dust of the eyes of the left in order to deflect attention to the embargo as the real & only source of the miseries of the Cuban people.

[Wanted Man]

Well, god damn it. Now I'm going to denounce 50 years of struggle for Cuban socialism because of some grainy footage of a bottle of wine. Long live the drug lords in Miami! If I dress it up with socialist rhetoric, I won't even be restricted here! :D

[Janus]

Merged. It's pointless to have two threads in both OI and Politics especially since the thread starter can't post in the latter.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I have seen inside cuban homes with my own eyes

Me too. I've also seen the inside of Haitian and Dominican homes.. have you? How do they compare?

Look at this extreme poverty:

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by manic [email protected] 24, 2007 07:03 pm
There's more disinformation over Cuba than almost any other topic in the US. Univision isn't exactly the source I would trust first (maybe for futbol, but not much else).

To me, it seems very suspect, at best. IMO, it isn't damning.
There could be a video of Fidel snorting coke off George Bush's ass while drinking Dom Perignon and bragging about the size of his Swiss bank accounts and you'd say it isn't "damning". Nothing is damning when it's someone you agree with, everything can be justified away.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by shadowed by the secret [email protected] 24, 2007 10:36 pm
The vast majority of Americans do not enjoy the luxuries of the White House and other nations as well. Castro's compound is small in comparison. Fuck off!!!!!
Slightly different: we've never pretended that the President is just another peasant whose resources are to be divided up equally.

Nice cop out though.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by shadowed by the secret [email protected] 24, 2007 11:03 pm
This is sand thrown into the dust of the eyes of the left in order to deflect attention to the embargo as the real & only source of the miseries of the Cuban people.
Tell me why he needs a law that says his own people can't say anything bad about him.

[Journeyman]

I'm going to establish my reply as an enumerated answer so there's no way to take the easy route and go off on a tangent.

1) Once again, like I said. I SAID IT BEFORE. The fact that capitalist leaders live in greater luxury is a MOOT ARGUMENT. These countries admit to being capitalistic. They are pigs but they admit it because they admit that they are capitalists.

2) Bush Lives in the White House and every single american knows about it. They are given tours around it. Fidel's house shown in the video is strictly forbidden from acces to the public. In fact, as the video says, no one is supposed to know what this house looks like from the inside, its a closely guarded secret. The woman from the video could die for showing this.

3) Fidel's son clearly tells the woman to keep it down because what she says is being recorded. She tells the little boy to "Smile for the presidential cameras"

3) Castro is SUPPOSED to live in almost EXACTLY the same conditions and have nearly EXACTLY THE SAME comforts as any normal cuban who sweeps floors at the local cantina.

4) And again, this is not about abundance, this is not about a ham and cheese sandwich. This is about a SEVEN HUNDRED DOLLAR WINE BOTTLE.

5) If any normal cuban were found with a 700$ dollar bottle in his house it would immediately be confiscated. Why isn't Fidel's bottle confiscated?

6) 700$ Read carefully. 700$ How many ham and cheese sandwiches does that equal to for a normal cuban family?

7) In fact, even if it were a 50$ bottle it would still be an outrage.

8) Let's not discuss whether the video is grainy or whether "I can't read the label". It's an easy copout. Assuming it's fake is just a way to dismiss any arguments. I would not be complaining just because "it's not in 1080p HDTV format and zoomed in". Why don't you call the moon landing fake then? it's even grainier than Fidel's home video.

9) Vladimiro Montesinos had to flee his country for another "grainy" video of him exchanging a suitce full of cash with opposition congressman Alberto Kouri in Peru.
Let's not discuss whether Vladimiro's face was clearly more visible than Fidel's or whether the suitcase was filled with Monopoly money because it couldn't be distinguished from that distance.

If any of you are going to reply, don't stick to the softest of my points or one you like in particular, please answer EVERY ONE OF THEM.

[pandora]

Originally posted by shadowed by the secret [email protected] 25, 2007 01:55 am
Is the author of this post a troll account? What luxuries does that video depict. That Castro enjoys a hearty table? That he has an air conditioner instead of a central ac system? That he has some parrots? Wow. Thanks for the political epiphany. Compare Castro's luxuries with the ones enjoyed by the leader of Dominican Republic and other nations in the region and you will find that Castro's "extravagance" pales in comparison. Compare Castro's lifestyle with the one enjoyed by Bush!

You want to see some real luxuries. Check this link out and click enter

www.johnmcmonigle.com
Damn right, I've seen more luxury in Nicaragua, one of the poorest nations in the hemisphere, poorer than Haiti, in the white resorts.

Compare this to how ranchers live in Costa Rica. Imagine starving, not low rations, starving children picking food out of the garbage in front of the bars of the front entrance, which is huge, and two German Shepards. Huge cobblestones the size of a chair each, and a huge ranch house in a village of one room shacks where two rooms is a luxury. That is how the ambassadors to European nations live in Nicaragua. This is very barren and poor in comparison.

By Central American standards, I was actually shocked by how humbly he lives.
He actually is making efforts in this way, but trying to live very European as well, which is nothing near the waste level of Americans.
Many things actually seemed to be old or in disrepair. The cement painted red, a hand driven scooter. The interior was similar to a run down hotel I know in Managua. I don't get it.
The car and the sun glasses.
I think the problem is not that Castro is living that well off, but that he has a hard time denying some things to his children. A common parent problem, even among left-wing leaders.

[Journeyman]

Once again, please do not go off on a tangent and stick to the subject. PLEASE!

I will repost what I wrote before:



I'm going to establish my reply as an enumerated answer so there's no way to take the easy route and go off on a tangent.

1) Once again, like I said. I SAID IT BEFORE. The fact that capitalist leaders live in greater luxury is a MOOT ARGUMENT. These countries admit to being capitalistic. They are pigs but they admit it because they admit that they are capitalists.

2) Bush Lives in the White House and every single american knows about it. They are given tours around it. Fidel's house shown in the video is strictly forbidden from acces to the public. In fact, as the video says, no one is supposed to know what this house looks like from the inside, its a closely guarded secret. The woman from the video could die for showing this.

3) Fidel's son clearly tells the woman to keep it down because what she says is being recorded. She tells the little boy to "Smile for the presidential cameras"

3) Castro is SUPPOSED to live in almost EXACTLY the same conditions and have nearly EXACTLY THE SAME comforts as any normal cuban who sweeps floors at the local cantina.

4) And again, this is not about abundance, this is not about a ham and cheese sandwich. This is about a SEVEN HUNDRED DOLLAR WINE BOTTLE.

5) If any normal cuban were found with a 700$ dollar bottle in his house it would immediately be confiscated. Why isn't Fidel's bottle confiscated?

6) 700$ Read carefully. 700$ How many ham and cheese sandwiches does that equal to for a normal cuban family?

7) In fact, even if it were a 50$ bottle it would still be an outrage.

8) Let's not discuss whether the video is grainy or whether "I can't read the label". It's an easy copout. Assuming it's fake is just a way to dismiss any arguments. I would not be complaining just because "it's not in 1080p HDTV format and zoomed in". Why don't you call the moon landing fake then? it's even grainier than Fidel's home video.

9) Vladimiro Montesinos had to flee his country for another "grainy" video of him exchanging a suitce full of cash with opposition congressman Alberto Kouri in Peru.
Let's not discuss whether Vladimiro's face was clearly more visible than Fidel's or whether the suitcase was filled with Monopoly money because it couldn't be distinguished from that distance.

If any of you are going to reply, don't stick to the softest of my points or one you like in particular, please answer EVERY ONE OF THEM.

[bezdomni]

1) Once again, like I said. I SAID IT BEFORE. The fact that capitalist leaders live in greater luxury is a MOOT ARGUMENT. These countries admit to being capitalistic. They are pigs but they admit it because they admit that they are capitalists.

Agreed. Exploiting people is fine when you admit it.


2) Bush Lives in the White House and every single american knows about it. They are given tours around it. Fidel's house shown in the video is strictly forbidden from acces to the public. In fact, as the video says, no one is supposed to know what this house looks like from the inside, its a closely guarded secret. The woman from the video could die for showing this.


If it is a closely guarded secret, then why are there so many reports from the Gusanos about Castro's standard of living.



3) Fidel's son clearly tells the woman to keep it down because what she says is being recorded. She tells the little boy to "Smile for the presidential cameras"

Good for them.


3) Castro is SUPPOSED to live in almost EXACTLY the same conditions and have nearly EXACTLY THE SAME comforts as any normal cuban who sweeps floors at the local cantina.

Says who?


4) And again, this is not about abundance, this is not about a ham and cheese sandwich. This is about a SEVEN HUNDRED DOLLAR WINE BOTTLE.

I'd rather my president have an alleged seven hundred dollar bottle of wine on his kitchen table than slaves.



5) If any normal cuban were found with a 700$ dollar bottle in his house it would immediately be confiscated. Why isn't Fidel's bottle confiscated?


Prove it.


6) 700$ Read carefully. 700$ How many ham and cheese sandwiches does that equal to for a normal cuban family?

Prove it is a $700 bottle of wine, and not just a bottle filled with regular wine. Were you there? Did you taste the wine? Did Fidel say GUESS HOW MUCH THIS WINE COST ME? $700! MUHAHWAHAH


7) In fact, even if it were a 50$ bottle it would still be an outrage.

You seem to show a great concern for mild inequalities in Cuba, but no worries whatsoever for the gross inequalities in the rest of the world.


) Let's not discuss whether the video is grainy or whether "I can't read the label". It's an easy copout. Assuming it's fake is just a way to dismiss any arguments. I would not be complaining just because "it's not in 1080p HDTV format and zoomed in". Why don't you call the moon landing fake then? it's even grainier than Fidel's home video.

The moon landing cost several million dollars and brought back moon rocks. All we have to believe that Castro is indeed drinking an expensive bottle of wine is the word of some gusanos.


If any of you are going to reply, don't stick to the softest of my points or one you like in particular, please answer EVERY ONE OF THEM.

I replied to all but eight, because you said not to discuss it.

[RNK]

FYI, shrimps on an island country aren't really "luxeries". And how do you know the wine is $700? Is the price tag still on it?

[Vladislav]

I didn't understand the video. Is there an English translation please?

I didn&#39;t even see the blast wine bottle. <_<

[edit]


Originally posted by Journeyman
Expensive 700&#036; wines and shrimp among other things.

The wine and shrimp have been debated about enough. What other things are there?

[Journeyman]

Agreed. Exploiting people is fine when you admit it.



1) Then stop arguing that point. You are the first to admit it, so kudos for that.





If it is a closely guarded secret, then why are there so many reports from the Gusanos about Castro&#39;s standard of living.



2) Because any number of secrets can get out. Any number of rumours. Most of them are rumors, claims. Something always slips out. This video is actual proof. That you decide to refute it, that&#39;s another story.

3) The point is that he IS living better than regular cubans, much better. And that destroys his reputation. According to communist ideals. That means INEQUALITY.




Good for them.





4) So? doesn&#39;t this mean they don&#39;t want the secret to get out?





Says who?



5) Karl Marx, Engels, Che Guevara and Guess who? Fidel Castro. If this is not the case, then explain it. Explain why there can SUCH HIGH inequalities in standards of living. Why is it allowed in communism. Why can the leader drink 700&#036; wines and the common folk cannot. ENLIGHTEN ME.

6) In fact, as a benefit of the doubt, you could even explain as to why there can be even mild inequalities of even a couple of hundred dollars. Explain why some would be allowed to eat meat and others only bread and butter (hypothetical example not meaning Cuba)





I&#39;d rather my president have an alleged seven hundred dollar bottle of wine on his kitchen table than slaves.



7) It&#39;s still a seven hundred dollar bottle. Stick to the point.





Prove it.



8) Please clarify what you&#39;re trying me to prove.




Prove it is a &#036;700 bottle of wine, and not just a bottle filled with regular wine. Were you there? Did you taste the wine? Did Fidel say GUESS HOW MUCH THIS WINE COST ME? &#036;700&#33; MUHAHWAHAH



9) Once again, let&#39;s be serious about this discussion. Montesinos could have laughed at the camera waving all his Mr Lincolns and still his supporters could have claimed it was a "joke" and all in good fun.

10) I couldn&#39;t even prove if Montesinos&#39; video is real. I mean, it could all be technical Hollywood wizardry right? Then lets just assume that Fidel Castro is made of CGI because you haven&#39;t seen him in person and licked his beard. Let&#39;s be serious please.

11) I&#39;ll give you the benefit of the doubt at the end of this discussion to believe what you want about the veracity of the video. But PLEASE&#33; for the sake of THIS discussion, let&#39;s assume that the video is real (you assume, I&#39;m already convinced)





You seem to show a great concern for mild inequalities in Cuba, but no worries whatsoever for the gross inequalities in the rest of the world.





12) Once again. COMMUNIST COUNTRY, CAPITALIST COUNTRY. COMMUNIST COUNTRY, CAPITALIST COUNTRY. Didn&#39;t I make my point clear a few paragraphs above?





The moon landing cost several million dollars and brought back moon rocks. All we have to believe that Castro is indeed drinking an expensive bottle of wine is the word of some gusanos.




13) It&#39;s still a grainy video and the moon could very well be made of frozen white chocolate. THE VIDEO, THE VIDEO. I&#39;M TRYING TO ILLUSTRATE AN EXAMPLE FOR THE VIDEO. But I&#39;ll give you the benefit of the doubt. (After all, I&#39;ve never been there. And probably neither have you, and you haven&#39;t touched the rocks, have you touched the rocks?, HAVE YOU TOUCHED THE ROCKS?). How do you know the pope isn&#39;t made of cardboard?


14) And there&#39;s still Montesinos. All it took was a grainy video for the court to make a decision.





I replied to all but eight, because you said not to discuss it.




15) I appreciate that you stuck to the point. That was what I wanted.


16) I&#39;d like to clarify a point. People like to play the "you haven&#39;t been there, how do you know for sure" game to cop out of a discussion. FOR GOD&#39;S SAKE. We aren&#39;t omnipresent or omniscient, we all can&#39;t know everything about everyone that occurs everywhere at all times. Not even the CIA.The best we have is the best we have. So we stand by the most believable proof (for the bunch of ignorants that we all could be "learning" about the world by reading electronic and printed material which could very well be bogus). But that&#39;s why we have statistics. We make statistical decisions, and if we wish to bring better proof we must take greater samples. but we can&#39;t always take greater samples, so we work with WHAT WE HAVE.

17) If we keep playing that game, that "you haven&#39;t been there, how do you know for sure" we won&#39;t get anywhere. We discuss with what we have. Or if you guys want, we can just assume that everything that is fabricated outside our neighborhood or that happened before we were born was a lie, or that we are living in a Matrix like world controlled by machines. That EVERYTHING IS A LIE, then we can just start from scratch and go back to the stone age to reinvent everything. Yeah, THAT would be productive.

[bezdomni]

1) Then stop arguing that point. You are the first to admit it, so kudos for that.

I was being sarcastic, you dolt.

I am tired. I will reply to the rest later...even though you are clearly too thick to get sarcasm, so I don&#39;t have high expectations for your comprehension ability.

Logical reasoning does not seem to be your forte.

[RGacky3]

Castro is a dictator, plain and simple, just like any other dictator he lives much better than the populace. I won&#39;t defend him for a second, it does&#39;nt suprise me at all, Castros claim to be a Communist is similar to many if not most US political elites to believe in Democracy, its laughable.

Now if by bashing Castro, and exposing him for what he is, a dictator, is somehow helping the case for Capitalism, or hurting the case for genuine communism, then your completely wrong, your just bashing a different form of oppression than the one you support.

The question of if Castro living in luxury in a &#39;Socialist) country, whether of not thats a contracticion? No, no its not, the concept of State/ Socialism (the type Castro ascribes to), is not that every one be equal, but rather that the State or a political Vanguard representing the people should be economic desicions rather than Capitalists.

Cuba right now is under an oppressive government, if your going to ask whether its better or worse than other governments like the US, or Europe I would have say not really, or maybe a little but not substationally.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

All the reliable sources say that Castro does not live in luxury.

Did you watch the video?

It is really not that relevant if the wine was a 5 CUC bottle or a 700 dollar bottle, because we cannot tell from the bad resolution.

Do you not understand the large inequality, from the home an ordinary Cuban live in, to the lifestyle showed in those videoclips?


Me too. I&#39;ve also seen the inside of Haitian and Dominican homes.. have you? How do they compare?

Look at this extreme poverty:

Out of curiosity, how representative is this family? How many Cuban families have three mobile phones? Last time I was in Cuba I saw... Perhaps three and four Cubans (well they said they actually lived in Europe but were on vacation) that had mobile phones in total.
The point is not the living standard in Haiti and the Dominican Republic. Or poverty in Cuba.

It is the living standards of the leadership in Cuba versus that of an ordinary Cuban family.


hy can the leader drink 700&#036; wines and the common folk cannot.


Why do you continue to say it is a 700 dollar wine? Where is the documentation? Until you can come up with some documentation, let&#39;s just call it a wine and leave it at that, okay? And in any case, isn&#39;t the "enviroment" presented in the tape good enough for you?

[Journeyman]

Why do you continue to say it is a 700 dollar wine? Where is the documentation? Until you can come up with some documentation, let&#39;s just call it a wine and leave it at that, okay? And in any case, isn&#39;t the "enviroment" presented in the tape good enough for you?




Precisely&#33; Even though I believe it&#39;s 700&#036;, as the video is made of 5 parts and it shows that later (watch all of them), and it&#39;s pointed at repeadetly, it&#39;s just a point of the many I chose to focus on. I can focus on the house of course, it&#39;s big house&#33;

With you I don&#39;t need to argue, it&#39;s with stubborn posters like SovietPants who still choose to cling blindly to the "greatness" of an obsolete government such as Castro&#39;s.





I was being sarcastic, you dolt.

I am tired. I will reply to the rest later...even though you are clearly too thick to get sarcasm, so I don&#39;t have high expectations for your comprehension ability.

Logical reasoning does not seem to be your forte.



COPOUT COPOUT&#33;

Whether I understand your weak attempt at sarcasm or not is not the point. That is not what we are discussing. I don&#39;t care about jokes. My points are perfectly logical and I expect you to answer.

So don&#39;t cling to a minuscule and insignificant fragment of the conversation to justify leaving on what you "think" is a high note. That is just a pathetic excuse.

I challenge you to argue all my points. If you chose not to for considering me "unable to understand basic logic" then it will be evident who&#39;s lost the debate.





Now if by bashing Castro, and exposing him for what he is, a dictator, is somehow helping the case for Capitalism, or hurting the case for genuine communism, then your completely wrong, your just bashing a different form of oppression than the one you support.




The viability of communism is not what I am discussing here, I would have to start a different thread for that. It&#39;s this particular case with Castro. In fact, I could be a communist and you guys wouldn&#39;t even know it. It&#39;s people like SovietPants who still justify Castro&#39;s government that I&#39;m aiming at.

SO PLEASE PEOPLE, IF YOU&#39;RE GOING TO POST PLEASE STICK TO THE POINT, TO MY 17 POINTS.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 05:20 am
Logical reasoning does not seem to be your forte.
What logic are you using besides, "It&#39;s someone I support, so I&#39;m not going to complain too much. But if the guy said he were a capitalist, I&#39;d be angry."?

[Guerrilla22]

Forbes keeps publishing outright lies about Castro having immense wealth. Castro recently challenged Forbes saying "prove I have a dime." So far Forbes has yet to respond.

[Journeyman]

Once again, STICK TO THE POINT.

[Guerrilla22]

What is the point of this thread? The video you posted is obviously something put out by the anti-Castro mafia in Miami, people who either left immiedetly after the revolution or who have never been there at all(which is the majority of them) for propaganda purposes. It has no validity what so ever.

[Herman]

3) The point is that he IS living better than regular cubans, much better. And that destroys his reputation. According to communist ideals. That means INEQUALITY.

You assume that the video is saying the truth. I assume it isn&#39;t. Hence your argument is invalid.


7) It&#39;s still a seven hundred dollar bottle. Stick to the point.

(Assuming the video is true in some way) Who cares? I don&#39;t really care if he drinks a &#036;700 dollar bottle of wine or whatever it was for once in his life. It&#39;s not like i&#39;m suddenly going to say &#39;oh no Castro sucks because of some guy on the internet who posts a video which is anti-communist and has a high chance of being fake&#39;. No one said that a person couldn&#39;t have a luxury or two now and then in a socialist society.


8) Please clarify what you&#39;re trying me to prove.

He means to say that you should prove that the video is correct and true, that Castro likes to drink a &#036;700 dollar bottle of wine for lunch or dinner and the rest of the claims you&#39;ve made. The burden of proof rests on you. If you cannot provide this, then your arguments are rendered useless and invalid.

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by t_wolves_fan+January 25, 2007 05:04 pm--> (t_wolves_fan @ January 25, 2007 05:04 pm)
[email protected] 25, 2007 05:20 am
Logical reasoning does not seem to be your forte.
What logic are you using besides, "It&#39;s someone I support, so I&#39;m not going to complain too much. But if the guy said he were a capitalist, I&#39;d be angry."? [/b]
That&#39;s not my logic. I don&#39;t support everything Castro does, and if he was a capitalist then I wouldn&#39;t support him because I am not a capitalist. Or does that not make sense to you?


COPOUT COPOUT&#33;

Whether I understand your weak attempt at sarcasm or not is not the point. That is not what we are discussing. I don&#39;t care about jokes. My points are perfectly logical and I expect you to answer.

So don&#39;t cling to a minuscule and insignificant fragment of the conversation to justify leaving on what you "think" is a high note. That is just a pathetic excuse.

I challenge you to argue all my points. If you chose not to for considering me "unable to understand basic logic" then it will be evident who&#39;s lost the debate.


I told you that I would reply to the rest of your idiotic "points" later. Read more carefully.

(I will still reply later. I am in too good of a mood to bother with an imperialist that will never learn.)

[LSD]

This is a ludicrous argument.

Nobody claims that Cuba is communist. Not the Cuban government and not those who support it. In fact the only people who label Cuba "communist" are capitalists who don&#39;t understand what the word means.

The question of what exactly Cuba is, meanwhile, is controversial. It&#39;s supporters claim that it&#39;s a "socialist workers&#39; state" or some rearrangement of those words. Those of us on the left who oppose it generally consider it state capitalist or, at the very least, authoritarian social-democratic.

Neither Cuba&#39;s supporters nor detractors, however, can be reasonably surprised that Castro lives a better lifestyle than the rest of the population. In fact, I don&#39;t really think Casto himself even denies it.

I mean it&#39;s not like he dirties up his shirt before he appears in public. He drives around in a state Limo with state bodyguards and I highly doubt that there&#39;s a person in Cuba who doesn&#39;t know that he lives in a state funded presidential home.

For all this talk of the "state secret" of Castro&#39;s lifestyle, I don&#39;t think your average Cuban would be particularly shocked by this video. In fact, I think a good deal of them would probably be underwhelmed by its general banality.

So Castro drinks wine. Stalin killed 20 million people&#33; In the long list of "socialist" crimes, Castro&#39;s hardly compare. Nor do they prove a thing other than that Castro is a political leader with all the perks that go along with it ...something that anyone with half a brain already knew.

You want to compare Castro&#39;s lifestyle with your idealized vision of how a "communist leader" should live, but you&#39;re completely missing the point that "communist leader" is a contradiction in terms.

If there&#39;s a political leadership, then there isn&#39;t communism; more importantly, if there&#39;s a political leadership then there&#39;s a hierarchical state and hierarchical states always look after their members.

The only question is how much do they leech of their populations. And in Cuba&#39;s case, the answer is relatively not that much.

For a Latin American dictatorship, Cuba is remarkably restrained. There are a lot of complex political and ideological reasons for that, of course, but it&#39;s absurd to disregard that unavoidable fact merely because its not "as good" as communism.

Well, Cuba isn&#39;t communist and no one is claiming that it is.

But it must be said that the fact that this video is the best you&#39;ve got to indite Cuba actually speaks rather well of the Cuban government. Because contrary to all the nonsense going around that Castro is a "monster" and "one of the richest men in the world", really all that this video demonstrates is that Castro&#39;s lifestyle is akin to your average upper middle class American&#39;s.

That&#39;s a lot better than most Cubans have it, sure, but it&#39;s nowhere near the level of almost any other national "President".

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I mean it&#39;s not like he dirties up his shirt before he appears in public. He drives around in a state Limo with state bodyguards and I highly doubt that there&#39;s a person in Cuba who doesn&#39;t know that he lives in a state funded presidential home.

No he doesn&#39;t. Lately (before falling ill) he&#39;s been driven around in a Benz which retails in Europe for about &#036;15,000 (US). He&#39;s also known to ride in a jeep fairly often... If you watch the documentary "Fidel: The untold story" you&#39;ll see that at one point the jeep he&#39;s riding in breaks down.. and the people in it get out and push.. not very typical for a world leader.

[Journeyman]

LSD, your answer is the most logical I&#39;ve seen in this thread. Although I can&#39;t focus on your points since you&#39;re not answering mine and I don&#39;t want the discussion to shift elsewhere.

RedHerman you need to answer every point not just the ones that you like.

People stick to the 17 points. Don&#39;t just pick your favorites that you think have more "holes" in them.

One more thing. Since you&#39;re all so convinced that the wine bottle isn&#39;t 700&#036; because you can&#39;t see the label, fine&#33;
Substitute all instances of 700&#036; wine bottle for REALLY BIG HOUSE which is definetly undeniable. I said I could focus on one of the many points on the video and that is just one of them.

I&#39;m still waiting for SovietPants reply to ALL OF MY 17 "IDIOTIC" POINTS.

[Herman]

RedHerman you need to answer every point not just the ones that you like.

Probably because you&#39;re saying the same thing in almost every point.

I&#39;ll can give you answers to all points, but then i&#39;ll have to repeat myself too.


1) Once again, like I said. I SAID IT BEFORE. The fact that capitalist leaders live in greater luxury is a MOOT ARGUMENT. These countries admit to being capitalistic. They are pigs but they admit it because they admit that they are capitalists.

I don&#39;t know what I&#39;m supposed to reply to this. It isn&#39;t a moot argument. They&#39;re saying that you don&#39;t take into account the fact that many other leaders, be it capitalist or self-proclaimed &#39;socialist/communist&#39;, live in great wealth compared to Fidel Castro.


2) Bush Lives in the White House and every single american knows about it. They are given tours around it. Fidel&#39;s house shown in the video is strictly forbidden from acces to the public. In fact, as the video says, no one is supposed to know what this house looks like from the inside, its a closely guarded secret. The woman from the video could die for showing this.

Yes, but the white house is the white house (and has nothing to hide) and what we&#39;re talking about is Fidel&#39;s home (which remains hidden for security reasons), not the place where he works. I&#39;m quite sure that many Americans don&#39;t know where Bush lives, otherwise he would have been slain a long time ago.


3) Fidel&#39;s son clearly tells the woman to keep it down because what she says is being recorded. She tells the little boy to "Smile for the presidential cameras"

Your point being...?


3) Castro is SUPPOSED to live in almost EXACTLY the same conditions and have nearly EXACTLY THE SAME comforts as any normal cuban who sweeps floors at the local cantina.

Is he? Or is it in your belief that he must? Why? He&#39;s an old man. He&#39;s frail. A &#036;700 dollar bottle (if it even is) isn&#39;t condemning at all. So what? One luxury. Big deal. It&#39;s just like saying, &#39;Communists can&#39;t be bourgeoisie, because it&#39;s a working class ideology. It&#39;s a betrayal of those ideals&#33;&#39;.


4) And again, this is not about abundance, this is not about a ham and cheese sandwich. This is about a SEVEN HUNDRED DOLLAR WINE BOTTLE.

Read my comment above.


5) If any normal cuban were found with a 700&#036; dollar bottle in his house it would immediately be confiscated. Why isn&#39;t Fidel&#39;s bottle confiscated?

Read my comment above.


6) 700&#036; Read carefully. 700&#036; How many ham and cheese sandwiches does that equal to for a normal cuban family?

Read my comment above (that&#39;s three times you repeat yourself. Great points you got there).


7) In fact, even if it were a 50&#036; bottle it would still be an outrage.


Read my comment above (that&#39;s four times you repeat yourself).


8) Let&#39;s not discuss whether the video is grainy or whether "I can&#39;t read the label". It&#39;s an easy copout. Assuming it&#39;s fake is just a way to dismiss any arguments.

No, it&#39;s a valid argument. If it is &#39;fake&#39;, then all your arguments go down. You&#39;re claiming that it&#39;s a &#036;700 dollar wine bottle. Prove it.


I would not be complaining just because "it&#39;s not in 1080p HDTV format and zoomed in". Why don&#39;t you call the moon landing fake then? it&#39;s even grainier than Fidel&#39;s home video.

I might, if I see evidence that it is grainy (and there is quite some evidence too, I must say, so I am being convinced).


9) Vladimiro Montesinos had to flee his country for another "grainy" video of him exchanging a suitce full of cash with opposition congressman Alberto Kouri in Peru.
Let&#39;s not discuss whether Vladimiro&#39;s face was clearly more visible than Fidel&#39;s or whether the suitcase was filled with Monopoly money because it couldn&#39;t be distinguished from that distance.

Completely off-topic.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 02:21 am
You want to compare Castro&#39;s lifestyle with your idealized vision of how a "communist leader" should live, but you&#39;re completely missing the point that "communist leader" is a contradiction in terms.


LSD your points are fair, but I have a question:

If there is no leadership, how do you guarantee that a communist state meets everyone&#39;s needs?

[UndergroundConnexion]

concerning the bottle of wine , did anybody think were it would come from , even if it was &#036;700? Remember that Fidel gets visitors ewvery now and then (being the leader of a country ,duh , who might give it to him as a present

[Enragé]

Originally posted by t_wolves_fan+January 26, 2007 02:44 pm--> (t_wolves_fan &#064; January 26, 2007 02:44 pm)
[email protected] 26, 2007 02:21 am
You want to compare Castro&#39;s lifestyle with your idealized vision of how a "communist leader" should live, but you&#39;re completely missing the point that "communist leader" is a contradiction in terms.


LSD your points are fair, but I have a question:

If there is no leadership, how do you guarantee that a communist state meets everyone&#39;s needs? [/b]
1. Through worker&#39;s councils in which all have an equal say

2. If there is a leadership, you in fact CANNOT have a communist society meet everyone&#39;s needs since needs are subjective, and its fulfillment can only come about if everyone has the opportunity to defend their subjective ideas of what they need. In the end, the middle ground between everyone&#39;s idea of what they need will become actual policy.
A leadership, in the most ideal situation, would simply enact what THEY think everyone needs, and how the fuck would they know, since "need" is subjective?

3. There is no such thing as a communist state.


as for the topic at hand
yay LSD&#33;

[Journeyman]

OK, RedHerman, this reply is for YOU EXCLUSIVELY.

SOVIETPANTS, IF YOU&#39;RE POSTING ANYTHING, POST IN REPLY TO THE POINTS THAT I GAVE TO YOU, AND NOT THE ONES I GAVE TO REDHERMAN.





I don&#39;t know what I&#39;m supposed to reply to this. It isn&#39;t a moot argument.
They&#39;re saying that you don&#39;t take into account the fact that many other
leaders, be it capitalist or self-proclaimed &#39;socialist/communist&#39;, live in
great wealth compared to Fidel Castro.




1) Once again. If they live in a capitalist country, they don&#39;t have to hide
the fact that they live in much greater luxury than Castro. Capitalism is
supposed to be a hierarchical society. Communism is not a hierarchical
society, so Fidel is not supposed to live any better than his people. He is supposed to be living as all other cubans of his age.





Yes, but the white house is the white house (and has nothing to hide) and
what we&#39;re talking about is Fidel&#39;s home (which remains hidden for security
reasons), not the place where he works. I&#39;m quite sure that many Americans
don&#39;t know where Bush lives, otherwise he would have been slain a long time
ago.



2) "The White House is the official home and principal workplace of the
President of the United States of America." Taken from Wikipedia.

3) Whether Bush owns a second home that is also luxurious is also a moot
argument since it&#39;s a public fact that Bush&#39;s family was wealthy before he
got to power. Whether some americans are not aware of it is of no
consequence. It&#39;s still public. Search "Bush Family" in Wikipedia. They come
from a long line of politicians, bankers and businessmen. Whether you assume
that most of the money came from their "political corruption" is your
problem.




Your point being...?



4) Read my reply to SovietPants reply to that point where he says "Good for them"




Is he? Or is it in your belief that he must? Why? He&#39;s an old man. He&#39;s
frail. A &#036;700 dollar bottle (if it even is) isn&#39;t condemning at all. So what?
One luxury. Big deal. It&#39;s just like saying, &#39;Communists can&#39;t be
bourgeoisie, because it&#39;s a working class ideology. It&#39;s a betrayal of those
ideals&#33;&#39;.



5) Yes he must. Don&#39;t give that "old man" baloney. It&#39;s still a communist
country. Age does not give you the right to a 700&#036; wine bottle or even less
such a large house as depicted in the video. Communists can&#39;t be bourgeoisie

indeed. ENLIGHTEN ME AS TO WHY THEY CAN.

6) Why don&#39;t all old men in Cuba have a house like Castro&#39;s then if that&#39;s
your justification?

7) Yes it&#39;s a betrayal, you answered that question to yourself. How is it not
a betrayal then? Why isn&#39;t it? WHY? ENLIGHTEN ME. Yes, questions are almost
the same. Answer them three times then.









4) And again, this is not about abundance, this is not about a ham and cheese
sandwich. This is about a SEVEN HUNDRED DOLLAR WINE BOTTLE.



Read my comment above.



8) I was referring to a comment that communism was about abundance when this
clearly is not abundance, it&#39;s luxury. And if it deserves the same answer
according to you, then copy and paste away, it won&#39;t stop being a valid
point. I&#39;d rather ask the same question a thousand times to avoid people
escaping it than to cross my fingers hoping they will understand it the first
time.








5) If any normal cuban were found with a 700&#036; dollar bottle in his house it
would immediately be confiscated. Why isn&#39;t Fidel&#39;s bottle confiscated?



Read my comment above.



9) Not the same point. A 700&#036; dollar bottle found in a cuban&#39;s home will be
confiscated. A 700&#036; dollar wine bottle was found in Fidel&#39;s home, but it&#39;s
not being confiscated. Why is that? Why is the normal cuban&#39;s &#036;700 bottle of
wine confiscated but Fidel&#39;s bottle is not?

10) Why isn&#39;t Fidel&#39;s home split up into five families but an equivalent home
for a normal cuban IS? Same question? Damn right&#33; Answer it twice&#33;









6) 700&#036; Read carefully. 700&#036; How many ham and cheese sandwiches does that
equal to for a normal cuban family?



Read my comment above (that&#39;s three times you repeat yourself. Great points
you got there).





11) NOT the same point. Again. How many ham and cheese sandwiches does a &#036;700 wine bottle equal to for a normal cuban family?









7) In fact, even if it were a 50&#036; bottle it would still be an outrage.



Read my comment above (that&#39;s four times you repeat yourself).



12) Again. NOT the same point. The point is that even SMALL INEQUALITIES of a
few hundred dollars are an outrage. Explain to me why even small inequalities
of a few hundred dollars are allowed (for citizens of the same age, if you so
please it to be that way). ENLIGHTEN ME.








8) Let&#39;s not discuss whether the video is grainy or whether "I can&#39;t read the
label". It&#39;s an easy copout. Assuming it&#39;s fake is just a way to dismiss any
arguments.



No, it&#39;s a valid argument. If it is &#39;fake&#39;, then all your arguments go down.
You&#39;re claiming that it&#39;s a &#036;700 dollar wine bottle. Prove it.




I&#39;ll have to repeat what I told to SovietPants. Here it goes.





16) I&#39;d like to clarify a point. People like to play the "you haven&#39;t been
there, how do you know for sure" game to cop out of a discussion. FOR GOD&#39;S
SAKE. We aren&#39;t omnipresent or omniscient, we all can&#39;t know everything about
everyone that occurs everywhere at all times. Not even the CIA.The best we
have is the best we have. So we stand by the most believable proof (for the
bunch of ignorants that we all could be "learning" about the world by reading
electronic and printed material which could very well be bogus). But that&#39;s
why we have statistics. We make statistical decisions, and if we wish to
bring better proof we must take greater samples. but we can&#39;t always take
greater samples, so we work with WHAT WE HAVE.

17) If we keep playing that game, that "you haven&#39;t been there, how do you
know for sure" we won&#39;t get anywhere. We discuss with what we have. Or if you
guys want, we can just assume that everything that is fabricated outside our
neighborhood or that what happened before we were born was a lie, or that we
are living in a Matrix like world controlled by machines. That EVERYTHING IS
A LIE, then we can just start from scratch and go back to the stone age to
reinvent everything. Yeah, THAT would be productive.




13) In other words, we assume as true the evidence we are given, and start
from there, since we are not qualified to decide whether it&#39;s fake or not.
Even the sources you trust the most. Or else we could assume that everything
is fake and thus there would be no discussion on anything in the first place.









I would not be complaining just because "it&#39;s not in 1080p HDTV format and
zoomed in". Why don&#39;t you call the moon landing fake then? it&#39;s even grainier
than Fidel&#39;s home video.



I might, if I see evidence that it is grainy (and there is quite some
evidence too, I must say, so I am being convinced).




14) That just means it&#39;s your opinion. Again, it doesn&#39;t put a stop to the
discussion for the same reason I explained above (My points 16 and 17 in
answer to SovietPants). I&#39;ll just call the moon landing video fake then
because the video looks grainy and thus avoid any discussion on whether Neil
Armstrong is jumping because he is happy or because he needs to go pee. And
dismiss any moonrocks because I&#39;m not touching them.









9) Vladimiro Montesinos had to flee his country for another "grainy" video of
him exchanging a suitce full of cash with opposition congressman Alberto
Kouri in Peru.Let&#39;s not discuss whether Vladimiro&#39;s face was clearly more visible than Fidel&#39;s or whether the suitcase was filled with Monopoly money because it
couldn&#39;t be distinguished from that distance.




Completely off-topic.




15) NOT off topic. It&#39;s another study case to support my arguments. The man
in the video could have been argued not to be Montesinos for the same reasons
you are using to disprove Fidel&#39;s video. And still the court made the
decision. The judge wasn&#39;t there, he wasn&#39;t in the room with Montesinos, he&#39;s
just watching a grainy video for god&#39;s sake&#33; And yet he made the decision to
sentence him. And you know what? Montesinos didn&#39;t defend himself, he fled
the country&#33;

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Since you&#39;re all so convinced that the wine bottle isn&#39;t 700&#036; because you can&#39;t see the label, fine&#33;
Substitute all instances of 700&#036; wine bottle for REALLY BIG HOUSE which is definetly undeniable.

Um.. the house (the one the gusanos like yourself say is Fidel&#39;s at least) isn&#39;t that big. Where are you from? I could take you any number of suburbs in the U.S., resided in by higher paid workers and petty-bourgeoisie, containing houses of that size and much larger&#33;

I mean.. even the right-wing, anti-Cuban Miami Herald has to admit that Fidel&#39;s house isn&#39;t very big or full of expensive furniture, pictures, etc., as I pointed out earlier in this very thread.

" Fidel Castro and wife Dalia live in a two-house complex in western Havana. The living room of the main house is described by visitors as furnished with simple wood and leather sofas and chairs and Cuban handicrafts. "

"The only luxury visible to visitors, said Fuentes [a gusano "exile" in Miami], is a big-screen television that Castro uses to satisfy his interest in foreign news reports and videos secretly recorded by Cuba&#39;s intelligence services."

...

"The houses of Fidel and Raúl are large but simply appointed."

...

"An acquaintance who has visited both Fidel and Raúl&#39;s homes described them as very large by Cuban standards but relatively simply appointed with Cuban-made furniture, with Raúl&#39;s home &#96;&#96;a bit nicer than Fidel&#39;s.&#39;&#39;

...

"I think that when this [Cuban revolution] ends ... most people in Miami will be surprised by their low level of life.&#39;&#39;

[Wanted Man]

Why is this fucktard troll not banned yet? Seriously: "This is a &#036;700 bottle of wine because I say so. Unless you prove that it did NOT cost &#036;700, I&#39;m going to keep using this as an argument that Fidel exploits his people&#33;"

[LSD]

Once again. If they live in a capitalist country, they don&#39;t have to hide
the fact that they live in much greater luxury than Castro. Capitalism is
supposed to be a hierarchical society. Communism is not a hierarchical
society, so Fidel is not supposed to live any better than his people.

I don&#39;t know why this concept is so difficult for you to comprehend, but Cuba is not communist, Cuba does not claim to be communist, no one is asserting that Cuba is communist ...except for you that is.

So basically every single one of your points is moot.

The government of the Republic of Cuba is hierarchical and openly so. So there&#39;s nothing wrong with comparing it to other hierichal states around the world.

The US may be capitalist, but it also claims to embody concepts of "equality" and "freedom", so the fact that Bush is living such an extravagent lifestyle out of the tax dollars of American workers is very much relevent.

The White House isn&#39;t a product of capitalism, it&#39;s a product of state coercion. People with guns forcing other people to send them money.

Contrasting the lifestyle of Bush to that of Castro is not an example of comparitive economic systems, it&#39;s an example of comparitive governmental techniques. Both governemtns are state hierarchies, both reward their leaders with luxuries.

It&#39;s just that the Cuban government does so to a much lesser degree.

Read this post&#33; (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=61535&view=findpost&p=1292249410)

[Journeyman]

CDL, for your information, I am a middle class half-german venezuelan, son of an adopted german orphan, and I&#39;ve lived in Caracas my whole life. I know a LOT about poverty. That&#39;s as far as I will go in this thread. And I will not discuss about Chavez in this thread.

I will not argue with you since you&#39;re not refuting my points one by one like SovietPants and RedHerman. I said I would limit myself to my points not out of stubbornness or cowardness, but because I don&#39;t want the discussion to shift focus.


Once again, let&#39;s stick to the point. I&#39;m still waiting for RedHerman&#39;s and Sovietpants&#39; replies.

LSD, I want to hear that from SovietPants and RedHerman. And like I told you before, if you&#39;re going to refute, please do so as I asked.

[Demogorgon]

Well Castro has one well, that is true. Nobody pretended Cuban Communism was a perfect model though, did they?

That being said, I do wonder how long he spends in these paaces. They say he never sleeps in the same bed twice due to assassination fears. You have to suspect he has had to spend much of his time in conditions more spartan than that.

[shadowed by the secret police]

Funny how Journeyman and his supporters never bothered answering my question.
How should Castro live, given that world leaders visit all the time and they talk long into the night (remember Castro speaks for hours). If an assassination, terrorist activity or other tragedy should occur in Castro&#39;s home he would be held liable if another world leader, celebrity, writer or what have you should get seriously hurt or killed.

[La Comédie Noire]

Hey Castro has some nice tastes, especially in Ideology. :)

But like others have said who the fuck said socialism was about living like a monk?

[bezdomni]

LSD, I want to hear that from SovietPants and RedHerman. And like I told you before, if you&#39;re going to refute, please do so as I asked.

You are not nearly interesting enough to debate with to be so bossy. Castro might have had a &#036;700 bottle of wine, so what? He is the President of a country, there are thousands of ways that bottle could have come into his possession.

The only thing you can logically prove from your video is this: Fidel Castro could have possibly had a bottle that once contained an expensive wine in it. There is no way to prove that Castro purchased the wine himself, there is no way to absolutely prove that this video isn&#39;t a fake, and there is no way to prove that the wine in the bottle was &#036;700 or whatever exorbitant amount of money you claim it was. I drink tap water out of Ozarka bottles, and there is no way you can prove which of the two I am drinking just by a video of me drinking it.

In fact, I have had Cuban Rum put into a used wine bottle (so I could bring it over the border) when I was in Mexico once. Bottles mean nothing. This is a dumb argument.

[Herman]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2007 04:07 am
OK, RedHerman, this reply is for YOU EXCLUSIVELY.
Age does not give you the right to a 700&#036; wine bottle or even less
SOVIETPANTS, IF YOU&#39;RE POSTING ANYTHING, POST IN REPLY ) TO THE POINTS THAT I GAVE TO YOU, AND NOT THE ONES I GAVE TO REDHERMAN.





I don&#39;t know what I&#39;m supposed to reply to this. It isn&#39;t a moot argument.
They&#39;re saying that you don&#39;t take into account the fact that many other
leaders, be it capitalist or self-proclaimed &#39;socialist/communist&#39;, live in
great wealth compared to Fidel Castro.




1) Once again. If they live in a capitalist country, they don&#39;t have to hide
the fact that they live in much greater luxury than Castro. Capitalism is
supposed to be a hierarchical society. Communism is not a hierarchical
society, so Fidel is not supposed to live any better than his people. He is supposed to be living as all other cubans of his age.





Yes, but the white house is the white house (and has nothing to hide) and
what we&#39;re talking about is Fidel&#39;s home (which remains hidden for security
reasons), not the place where he works. I&#39;m quite sure that many Americans
don&#39;t know where Bush lives, otherwise he would have been slain a long time
ago.



2) "The White House is the official home and principal workplace of the
President of the United States of America." Taken from Wikipedia.

3) Whether Bush owns a second home that is also luxurious is also a moot
argument since it&#39;s a public fact that Bush&#39;s family was wealthy before he
got to power. Whether some americans are not aware of it is of no
consequence. It&#39;s still public. Search "Bush Family" in Wikipedia. They come
from a long line of politicians, bankers and businessmen. Whether you assume
that most of the money came from their "political corruption" is your
problem.




Your point being...?



4) Read my reply to SovietPants reply to that point where he says "Good for them"




Is he? Or is it in your belief that he must? Why? He&#39;s an old man. He&#39;s
frail. A &#036;700 dollar bottle (if it even is) isn&#39;t condemning at all. So what?
One luxury. Big deal. It&#39;s just like saying, &#39;Communists can&#39;t be
bourgeoisie, because it&#39;s a working class ideology. It&#39;s a betrayal of those
ideals&#33;&#39;.



5) Yes he must. Don&#39;t give that "old man" baloney. It&#39;s still a communist
country.
such a large house as depicted in the video. Communists can&#39;t be bourgeoisie

indeed. ENLIGHTEN ME AS TO WHY THEY CAN.

6) Why don&#39;t all old men in Cuba have a house like Castro&#39;s then if that&#39;s
your justification?

7Yes it&#39;s a betrayal, you answered that question to yourself. How is it not
a betrayal then? Why isn&#39;t it? WHY? ENLIGHTEN ME. Yes, questions are almost
the same. Answer them three times then.









4) And again, this is not about abundance, this is not about a ham and cheese
sandwich. This is about a SEVEN HUNDRED DOLLAR WINE BOTTLE.



Read my comment above.



8) I was referring to a comment that communism was about abundance when this
clearly is not abundance, it&#39;s luxury. And if it deserves the same answer
according to you, then copy and paste away, it won&#39;t stop being a valid
point. I&#39;d rather ask the same question a thousand times to avoid people
escaping it than to cross my fingers hoping they will understand it the first
time.








5) If any normal cuban were found with a 700&#036; dollar bottle in his house it
would immediately be confiscated. Why isn&#39;t Fidel&#39;s bottle confiscated?



Read my comment above.



9) Not the same point. A 700&#036; dollar bottle found in a cuban&#39;s home will be
confiscated. A 700&#036; dollar wine bottle was found in Fidel&#39;s home, but it&#39;s
not being confiscated. Why is that? Why is the normal cuban&#39;s &#036;700 bottle of
wine confiscated but Fidel&#39;s bottle is not?

10) Why isn&#39;t Fidel&#39;s home split up into five families but an equivalent home
for a normal cuban IS? Same question? Damn right&#33; Answer it twice&#33;









6) 700&#036; Read carefully. 700&#036; How many ham and cheese sandwiches does that
equal to for a normal cuban family?



Read my comment above (that&#39;s three times you repeat yourself. Great points
you got there).





11) NOT the same point. Again. How many ham and cheese sandwiches does a &#036;700 wine bottle equal to for a normal cuban family?









7) In fact, even if it were a 50&#036; bottle it would still be an outrage.



Read my comment above (that&#39;s four times you repeat yourself).



12) Again. NOT the same point. The point is that even SMALL INEQUALITIES of a
few hundred dollars are an outrage. Explain to me why even small inequalities
of a few hundred dollars are allowed (for citizens of the same age, if you so
please it to be that way). ENLIGHTEN ME.








8) Let&#39;s not discuss whether the video is grainy or whether "I can&#39;t read the
label". It&#39;s an easy copout. Assuming it&#39;s fake is just a way to dismiss any
arguments.



No, it&#39;s a valid argument. If it is &#39;fake&#39;, then all your arguments go down.
You&#39;re claiming that it&#39;s a &#036;700 dollar wine bottle. Prove it.




I&#39;ll have to repeat what I told to SovietPants. Here it goes.





16) I&#39;d like to clarify a point. People like to play the "you haven&#39;t been
there, how do you know for sure" game to cop out of a discussion. FOR GOD&#39;S
SAKE. We aren&#39;t omnipresent or omniscient, we all can&#39;t know everything about
everyone that occurs everywhere at all times. Not even the CIA.The best we
have is the best we have. So we stand by the most believable proof (for the
bunch of ignorants that we all could be "learning" about the world by reading
electronic and printed material which could very well be bogus). But that&#39;s
why we have statistics. We make statistical decisions, and if we wish to
bring better proof we must take greater samples. but we can&#39;t always take
greater samples, so we work with WHAT WE HAVE.

17) If we keep playing that game, that "you haven&#39;t been there, how do you
know for sure" we won&#39;t get anywhere. We discuss with what we have. Or if you
guys want, we can just assume that everything that is fabricated outside our
neighborhood or that what happened before we were born was a lie, or that we
are living in a Matrix like world controlled by machines. That EVERYTHING IS
A LIE, then we can just start from scratch and go back to the stone age to
reinvent everything. Yeah, THAT would be productive.




13) In other words, we assume as true the evidence we are given, and start
from there, since we are not qualified to decide whether it&#39;s fake or not.
Even the sources you trust the most. Or else we could assume that everything
is fake and thus there would be no discussion on anything in the first place.









I would not be complaining just because "it&#39;s not in 1080p HDTV format and
zoomed in". Why don&#39;t you call the moon landing fake then? it&#39;s even grainier
than Fidel&#39;s home video.



I might, if I see evidence that it is grainy (and there is quite some
evidence too, I must say, so I am being convinced).




14) That just means it&#39;s your opinion. Again, it doesn&#39;t put a stop to the
discussion for the same reason I explained above (My points 16 and 17 in
answer to SovietPants). I&#39;ll just call the moon landing video fake then
because the video looks grainy and thus avoid any discussion on whether Neil
Armstrong is jumping because he is happy or because he needs to go pee. And
dismiss any moonrocks because I&#39;m not touching them.









9) Vladimiro Montesinos had to flee his country for another "grainy" video of
him exchanging a suitce full of cash with opposition congressman Alberto
Kouri in Peru.Let&#39;s not discuss whether Vladimiro&#39;s face was clearly more visible than Fidel&#39;s or whether the suitcase was filled with Monopoly money because it
couldn&#39;t be distinguished from that distance.




Completely off-topic.




15) NOT off topic. It&#39;s another study case to support my arguments. The man
in the video could have been argued not to be Montesinos for the same reasons
you are using to disprove Fidel&#39;s video. And still the court made the
decision. The judge wasn&#39;t there, he wasn&#39;t in the room with Montesinos, he&#39;s
just watching a grainy video for god&#39;s sake&#33; And yet he made the decision to
sentence him. And you know what? Montesinos didn&#39;t defend himself, he fled
the country&#33;

1) Once again. If they live in a capitalist country, they don&#39;t have to hide
the fact that they live in much greater luxury than Castro. Capitalism is
supposed to be a hierarchical society. Communism is not a hierarchical
society, so Fidel is not supposed to live any better than his people. He is supposed to be living as all other cubans of his age.

No, he doesn&#39;t have to be living exactly like his people are. Like a previous poster said, we don&#39;t live like monks. Socialists can live like a middle-class person and have a few luxuries too. It isn&#39;t wrong. What is usually frowned upon is that a socialist has too many luxuries, more than he needs.

And, by the way, Cuba isn&#39;t communist. It&#39;s socialist. Remember that.


2) "The White House is the official home and principal workplace of the
President of the United States of America." Taken from Wikipedia.

But it isn&#39;t his personal home.


3) Whether Bush owns a second home that is also luxurious is also a moot
argument since it&#39;s a public fact that Bush&#39;s family was wealthy before he
got to power. Whether some americans are not aware of it is of no
consequence. It&#39;s still public. Search "Bush Family" in Wikipedia. They come
from a long line of politicians, bankers and businessmen. Whether you assume
that most of the money came from their "political corruption" is your
problem.

It&#39;s public because he probably has 100 guards around it. He doesn&#39;t mind anyone knowing about it. Like you said, he&#39;s a rich bastard.


5) Yes he must. Don&#39;t give that "old man" baloney. It&#39;s still a communist
country.

No, he MUSN&#39;T. Where did you get this information? It isn&#39;t a communist country, it&#39;s a SOCIALIST ONE. READ FREAKIN&#39; WIKIPEDIA, it even says there (despite being a nice bourgeois source).


Communists can&#39;t be bourgeoisie

indeed.

Of course they can. You can be a middle-class person and be a socialist or communist. You are allowed. We are open to any class, as long as they commit themselves to the creation of a socialist state. It isn&#39;t a &#39;only working class&#39; ideology. It is an ideology, however, which mostly benefits the working class, hence the fact that many workers believe in socialism.


6) Why don&#39;t all old men in Cuba have a house like Castro&#39;s then if that&#39;s
your justification?

Perhaps they do. Have you seen them? And even if they didn&#39;t, i&#39;m sure they have a luxury now and then, just like Castro.


7)Yes it&#39;s a betrayal, you answered that question to yourself. How is it not
a betrayal then? Why isn&#39;t it? WHY? ENLIGHTEN ME. Yes, questions are almost
the same. Answer them three times then.

No, it isn&#39;t a betrayal. Read my comment above.


8) I was referring to a comment that communism was about abundance when this
clearly is not abundance, it&#39;s luxury.

It&#39;s ONE freakin&#39; luxury&#33; No one cares. It&#39;s not like this stops anyone from believing in socialism, okay? This point is meaningless.


9) Not the same point. A 700&#036; dollar bottle found in a cuban&#39;s home will be
confiscated. A 700&#036; dollar wine bottle was found in Fidel&#39;s home, but it&#39;s
not being confiscated. Why is that? Why is the normal cuban&#39;s &#036;700 bottle of
wine confiscated but Fidel&#39;s bottle is not?

Perhaps because it isn&#39;t a &#036;700 dollar bottle?


10) Why isn&#39;t Fidel&#39;s home split up into five families but an equivalent home
for a normal cuban IS? Same question? Damn right&#33; Answer it twice&#33;

Does it matter? NO. He doesn&#39;t have to strictly follow a monks personal code, you know.


12) Again. NOT the same point. The point is that even SMALL INEQUALITIES of a
few hundred dollars are an outrage. Explain to me why even small inequalities
of a few hundred dollars are allowed (for citizens of the same age, if you so
please it to be that way). ENLIGHTEN ME.

A socialist society does not mean that everyone has exactly the SAME things. Some will buy a luxury or two, others WON&#39;T. It isn&#39;t an outrage. NO ONE said that small inequalities are an outrage. Besides, there are many ways to explain why he one bottle of wine, one being for example that he organized his finances well, and thus was able to buy a luxury for that day.

[Journeyman]

No, he doesn&#39;t have to be living exactly like his people are. Like a previous poster said, we don&#39;t live like monks. Socialists can live like a middle-class person and have a few luxuries too. It isn&#39;t wrong. What is usually frowned upon is that a socialist has too many luxuries, more than he needs.

And, by the way, Cuba isn&#39;t communist. It&#39;s socialist. Remember that.




1) Your words: "No, he doesn&#39;t have to be living exactly like his people are".
By the way, by "exactly" of course I don&#39;t mean they all need to have the same wallpaper in his house, the TV exactly the same number of inches from the doorway at exactly the same angle, so let&#39;s suppose you understand that.

2) In socialism, wealth is distributed equally in the population. That means everyone should be equally wealthy. Unless you have something else to clarify.
The size of your house amounts to wealth, because it&#39;s land. The technology you own equals to wealth. Everything you own, a painting, a car, equals to wealth. If you own two cars, you have more wealth that a person with only one car (read, one person versus another person, not one versus two). If you have a 300 square meter apartment, you have more wealth than a man with a 100 square meter apartment (read that&#39;s ONE man versus ANOTHER man).

3) If one man, Fidel for example, owns a 500 square meter house and 75% of cubans live in sub 100 square meter houses or apartments, that means Fidel is more wealthy than 75% percent of the population.

4) If one man, Fidel for example, owns three cars and 30% of cubans own one car, and 69.999% have no car, that means Fidel is wealthier than 99% of the population.

5) That means that more cars (don&#39;t think about using arguments like more cars but worse quality) + bigger house = more wealth. Or am I wrong?

6) In socialism wealth is equally distributed in the poputaltion. Right or wrong?

7) If wealth is NOT equally dsitributed in the opulation that means the princples of Socialism re being betrayed right? Or Wrong? If I&#39;m wrong, PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME

8) If Fidel is the cuban with the biggest house in Cuba (read: foreign property does not count), would that be an even more blatant betrayal of Socialist principles or not? if not, ENLIGHTEN ME.




But it isn&#39;t his personal home.



9)But your words were "if they found out where he lives" not "his personal home".
You said he would be slain if peple found out where he lives. This has been out in Wikipedia for ages. It&#39;s been public for ages. I don&#39;t see a lawsuit, I don&#39;t see an angry mob climbing over his house. Guards? 100 Guards?, don&#39;t use that excuse, I&#39;m pretty sure you said they WOULD slay him. You know how they would slay him even with 100 guards outside his house? If he admitted publicly that he derived pleasure from killing all those Iraquis. But what he is admitting publicly is that he is a big fat rich pig, and people aren&#39;t climbing over the gates for that, why is that?

And also, read below.





It&#39;s public because he probably has 100 guards around it. He doesn&#39;t mind anyone knowing about it. Like you said, he&#39;s a rich bastard.



10) But its still public right? Fidel still has 100 guards around his house, and the worst part is he doesn&#39;t even want the Cuban people to know about it. Could it be because of protection? No, I dont think so. CIA operatives could have gotten in years ago (and if they did, no one would have found out since it was not supposed to be his house), so it&#39;s not a secret to the CIA, it&#39;s a secret TO HIS OWN PEOPLE. Why is it a secret to his own people then?





4) Read my reply to SovietPants reply to that point where he says "Good for them"




11) You missed point 4.





No, he MUSN&#39;T. Where did you get this information? It isn&#39;t a communist country, it&#39;s a SOCIALIST ONE. READ FREAKIN&#39; WIKIPEDIA, it even says there (despite being a nice bourgeois source).




12) Great it&#39;s a socialist country&#33; then read points 1-8. By the way, I got that from Wikipedia.






Of course they can. You can be a middle-class person and be a socialist or communist. You are allowed. We are open to any class, as long as they commit themselves to the creation of a socialist state. It isn&#39;t a &#39;only working class&#39; ideology. It is an ideology, however, which mostly benefits the working class, hence the fact that many workers believe in socialism.






13) I think I&#39;m beginning ot see some contradictions.

"Socialism is a classless society based on common ownership of the means of producing and distributing wealth, where production will be used to overcome needs, not to create profit." Taken from :

www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/oct04/seatle5.html+%22socialism+is+a+classless%22&hl=es&gl=es&ct=clnk&cd=9]Google (http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:No9_MWIKJY8J:

And then I see this from you:

"It isn&#39;t a &#39;only working class&#39; ideology."

It isn&#39;t a working class ONLY ideology. That means according to you there can be more that one class. But according to the link I posted "Socialism is a classless society". I wonder who&#39;s right? Please explain this to me. ENLIGHTEN ME.

"It isn&#39;t a &#39;only working class&#39; ideology." = "Socialism is a classless society"

What the????






Perhaps they do. Have you seen them? And even if they didn&#39;t, i&#39;m sure they have a luxury now and then, just like Castro.



14) Once more the "have you been there, how can you know for sure". Like I said, we have to rely on the news that get to us. If you just assume that everything is a lie then there is no discussion in the first place. Or if you just choose to believe what you want then there is no discussion either. We see reports and columns in newspapers and magazines. Heres&#39; one:

"The Cuban government also legalized the small business enterprises and farmers&#39; markets. Food prices at these markets vary -- some are affordable for everyone, some too expensive for anyone not running a private business in dollars. But the presence of the markets meant that the food shortages were over -- and, perhaps as important, that the sense of shortage was over."

www.globalexchange.org/countries/americas/cuba/sustainable/atlanticMonthly010197.html.pf+%22salaries+in+cuba% 22&hl=es&gl=es&ct=clnk&cd=20]Google (http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:G82--f1H3dEJ:[url) search

15) This means that only thanks to private property were food shortages ended. That means that food shortages, not LACK OF LUXURIES NOW AND THEN, started to fade away after CAPITALIST measures were implemented. This means that if cubans ever enjoy a luxury or two, it&#39;s thanks to the CAPITALIST measures. And you are SUPPOSING that cuba is a SOCIALIST COUNTRY.

16) If Fidel had publicly admitted that he has implemented capitalist reforms, then I wouldn&#39;t complain about his bottle of wine or his big house, but he insisted, and you yourself do, that it&#39;s still a SOCIALIST COUNTRY.





No, it isn&#39;t a betrayal. Read my comment above.




17) Yes, it is a betrayal. Read my points 1-8. Unless you provide an explanation to those points.





It&#39;s ONE freakin&#39; luxury&#33; No one cares. It&#39;s not like this stops anyone from believing in socialism, okay? This point is meaningless.




18) It&#39;s not just ONE FREAKING LUXURY&#33; Did you see the video, did you see the size of the house? And for god&#39;s sake one luxury of &#036;700 is plenty enough&#33; If you want to, fine&#33; forget about the wine&#33; LOOK A THE HOUSE&#33; A house that would be split up into six families&#33;

19) And it&#39;s not going to stop people from believing in socialism simply because they will insist that "it wasn&#39;t done right".




Perhaps because it isn&#39;t a &#036;700 dollar bottle?



20) Once again, I asked that for the purposes of this discussion, we suppose that the wine is real. But again if you must insist, fine&#33; Why isn&#39;t Fidel&#39;s house split between six families? Why isn&#39;t it split even between three?





Does it matter? NO. He doesn&#39;t have to strictly follow a monks personal code, you know.




21) Not a monk&#39;s personal code, he has to follow the code that all of his people followed. This does not answer the question. (And you wonder why I ask questions more than once)

22) Why isn&#39;t his house split up like it was split up for other cubans?

23) And why doesn&#39;t it matter? Give me a good answer. ENLIGHTEN ME.





A socialist society does not mean that everyone has exactly the SAME things. Some will buy a luxury or two, others WON&#39;T. It isn&#39;t an outrage. NO ONE said that small inequalities are an outrage. Besides, there are many ways to explain why he one bottle of wine, one being for example that he organized his finances well, and thus was able to buy a luxury for that day.



24) I&#39;m sorry but, how long would a person have to save, with a salary of 195 pesos, to buy a &#036;700 wine bottle?

25) Once again, read points 1-8 and explain why that isn&#39;t an outrage. I&#39;M DYING TO BE EDUCATED.

And SovietPants, you said you WOULD reply to my IDIOTIC points, but suddenly you decide I&#39;m not "interesting" enough. Could it be that my points are simply not CONVENIENT enough for you?

SovietPants, you have no valid arguments to reply. You are scared to admit that you lost the debate with me.

[black magick hustla]

journeyman, did the nurse dropped you by an accident when you were a newborn?

this is urgent

[Journeyman]

RedHerman you missed the last three points:




13) In other words, we assume as true the evidence we are given, and start
from there, since we are not qualified to decide whether it&#39;s fake or not.
Even the sources you trust the most. Or else we could assume that everything
is fake and thus there would be no discussion on anything in the first place.







14) That just means it&#39;s your opinion. Again, it doesn&#39;t put a stop to the
discussion for the same reason I explained above (My points 16 and 17 in
answer to SovietPants). I&#39;ll just call the moon landing video fake then
because the video looks grainy and thus avoid any discussion on whether Neil
Armstrong is jumping because he is happy or because he needs to go pee. And
dismiss any moonrocks because I&#39;m not touching them.








15) NOT off topic. It&#39;s another study case to support my arguments. The man
in the video could have been argued not to be Montesinos for the same reasons
you are using to disprove Fidel&#39;s video. And still the court made the
decision. The judge wasn&#39;t there, he wasn&#39;t in the room with Montesinos, he&#39;s
just watching a grainy video for god&#39;s sake&#33; And yet he made the decision to
sentence him. And you know what? Montesinos didn&#39;t defend himself, he fled
the country&#33;



I need a reply to these.

[bezdomni]

And SovietPants, you said you WOULD reply to my IDIOTIC points, but suddenly you decide I&#39;m not "interesting" enough. Could it be that my points are simply not CONVENIENT enough for you?

SovietPants, you have no valid arguments to reply. You are scared to admit that you lost the debate with me.

:lol:

I replied to your argument. I am not going to address you on a point-by-point basis, that&#39;s really stupid.

You didn&#39;t reply to my argument, so you lost the debate.

Now, reply to this or loose:


The only thing you can logically prove from your video is this: Fidel Castro could have possibly had a bottle that once contained an expensive wine in it. There is no way to prove that Castro purchased the wine himself, there is no way to absolutely prove that this video isn&#39;t a fake, and there is no way to prove that the wine in the bottle was &#036;700 or whatever exorbitant amount of money you claim it was. I drink tap water out of Ozarka bottles, and there is no way you can prove which of the two I am drinking just by a video of me drinking it.

I have been defending the Cuban revolution for years. You have not brought up anything I haven&#39;t refuted in the past. I feel no need to justify my politics to you.

By the way, you are not a leftist, correct?

[JKP]

Being chauffeured in a ZIL limo doesn&#39;t help Castro&#39;s image:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_...dent/html/5.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/03/world_the_zil_limousine0_fit_for_a_president/html/5.stm)

[R_P_A_S]

LSD took this thread&#33; wrapped it up like a tamale YUMMY&#33;

[ComradeR]

Journeyman let me clear something up for you.


"Socialism is a classless society"
No it isn&#39;t you seem to think that socialism and communism are the same thing, they are not. communism is the stateless, classless society. Socialism is the transition period between capitalism and communism, it is the post-revolutionary period in which the working class has seized the means of production and installed a workers state. Under socialism there still exists classes, and even though wealth is redistributed there still exists inequality, though not nearly as much as under capitalism. Cuba is a socialist state and although inequality does exist, it is no where near comparable with any other third-world country or even several western powers.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by NKOS+January 26, 2007 09:47 pm--> (NKOS @ January 26, 2007 09:47 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 02:44 pm

[email protected] 26, 2007 02:21 am
You want to compare Castro&#39;s lifestyle with your idealized vision of how a "communist leader" should live, but you&#39;re completely missing the point that "communist leader" is a contradiction in terms.


LSD your points are fair, but I have a question:

If there is no leadership, how do you guarantee that a communist state meets everyone&#39;s needs?
1. Through worker&#39;s councils in which all have an equal say

2. If there is a leadership, you in fact CANNOT have a communist society meet everyone&#39;s needs since needs are subjective, and its fulfillment can only come about if everyone has the opportunity to defend their subjective ideas of what they need. In the end, the middle ground between everyone&#39;s idea of what they need will become actual policy.
A leadership, in the most ideal situation, would simply enact what THEY think everyone needs, and how the fuck would they know, since "need" is subjective?

3. There is no such thing as a communist state.


as for the topic at hand
yay LSD&#33; [/b]
Won&#39;t the workers&#39; councils become the de facto leadership?

If I have a need, and the concil denies it, how can I meet my need?

[Roy Batty]

Here&#39;s to Fidel and his expensive drinks and his exquisite everything and that green army uniform somehwere in the janitor&#39;s closet, Someguy Marx&#39;s thick books gathering dust in that old box by the bed and those something something lost ideas forgotten somewhere in the jungle of lost causes by the Sierra Maestra or.... was it left on the Granma? In any case it wasn&#39;t there by the time he got to Havana.

All the worlds indeed a stage
And we are merely players
Performers and portrayers
Each anothers audience
Outside the gilded cage

[Journeyman]

So, it&#39;s gonna be a week and neither SovietPants nor RedHerman have reared their heads to answer their corresponding points as they agreed implicitly when they answered the first time. Everyone in this forum is a witness to how two "defenders" of the Cuban revolution simply decide to vanish into thin air when the going gets tough.

I know I have kept my end of the bargain, but these two clowns haven&#39;t, It&#39;s as simple as that. Let everyone in this forum be a witness to that cold hard fact.

And SovietPants, that is SO LOW of you to try an pull a cheap stunt like that, suddenly DEMANDING that we shift gears in the conversation. I answer to YOUR answers to MY POINTS, that was the agreement. I explained myself clearly in the first post.

And if you decide to be so stubborn as to demand an answer to your POINTLESS ARGUMENT, read points 16 and 17 that I made to YOU SPECIFICALLY FOR THAT REASON SO YOU WOULDN&#39;T MAKE SUCH STUPID CLAIMS LIKE THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I stand proud in this discussion, as I haven&#39;t betrayed the conditions under which I started this thread.

LET EVERYONE BE WITNESS TO SOVIETPANTS&#39;S AND REDHERMAN&#39;S CHILDISH BEHAVIOR. SOVIETPANTS The great defender of the cuban revolution, MY BUTTOCKS&#33;