Free Choice

[Che Jexster]

I've been wondering lately if we have freedom of choice at all in our lives. The Nature/Nurture argument is what made me start thinking about it. If it is Nature that determines our lives then we can't choose that, and if it is Nurture we can't choose the circumstances we're brought up in and if it's a mix we can't choose either so if how our lives are lead depend on these factors we don't really have free will because everything is outside of our control.

[vox]

Ah, but what you're doing right now, in your post, proves free will, for you are doubting the very foundations of things which, absent a free will, you would not be able to doubt. Indeed, you are able to decide, and then choose. If you pick Nature, then you can look at yourself and decide what you like and don't. Same with Nurture, and same with a mix.

It's this very questioning that allows us to transcend, to one degree or another (for I'm not convinced that perfect transcendence is possible) our genes and our upbringing.

When you come across something you cannot think clearly about, study it within yourself. That, my friend, is free will knocking out the pillars of Nature or Nurture.

vox

[Supermodel]

OK, it's a cliche, but one I firmly believe....

Grant me the strength to change what I can;
the serenity to live with what I cannot change:
and the wisdom to know the difference.

There are things you control and things you don't. However, you control a whole lot more than you think you do.

Look at Che's example. Even he had doubts as the Cuban revolution started that they had any chance of succeeding. But they triumphed against incredible odds and changed the whole world in doing it.

Vox is right, you can transcend a lot of what appears to be real or "given". In particular class distinctions and racial inequities are merely human failings and can be dismissed.

[Che Jexster]

But if you're questioning things within yourself, it's because your Nature (influenced by nurture) caused you to start questioning, and if you try to do something that goes against nature or nurture you're only falling into a cycle of >you wouldn't do it unless you tried to go against it and you realized you're trapped in the cycle because of the your nature and nurture.
I'm not saying that this should affect your outlook on life at all, because even if you wanted to you still wouldn't have free will. For example if we didn't punish people for actions because they didn't have the free will to choose them we would be inducing a nurturing element into everyone's lives causing them to act 'amorally' more often.
It's not a statement that should affect actions at all.

[vox]

Supermodel gives us a prayer:

"Grant me the strength to change what I can;
the serenity to live with what I cannot change:
and the wisdom to know the difference."

And with this, she expects us to understand something? She never delves into the WHO that is, of course, being asked to grant such favors. Her cliche is not terrible because it's a cliche, but because it avoids the entire topic.

She goes on to say: "In particular class distinctions and racial inequities are merely human failings and can be dismissed."

HA!

They can be dismissed by those who have never experienced prejudice and bigotry, perhaps, but in the real world, these things certainly hold sway, and cannot be dismissed by a turn of phrase, and that SM thinks that they can be betrays her as a capitalist sympathizer, immune to the suffering of the masses. She turns her nose up to pain and expects us to follow? NO.

I cannot help her clever phrases, her distactions posing as truth, but I will shout against them loudly, for she brandishes a sword of diamonds to dazzle the many, but diamonds are only gained by the work of the masses, work she has certainly not done.

Che Jexster:

Comrade, I understand the difficulty, but I firmly believe, and nothing so far has shown me that I'm wrong, that free will exists, for I, living in the USA, should, through both nature and nurture, value capitalist republicanism, but I do not. Whence the impetus to deride such basic tenets?

As human beings, we are told many things, and we learn, through living, many others, but questioning all of this is what makes us human, for we have the capacity for doubt, and the promise of education.

We are raised Catholics, or Republicans, but we end up Pagan Socialists. How? If Nature takes a back seat, it's not then in our genes (which would be a prepostorous notion with which to begin) and it's not our nurturing, would have us voting for Bush.

I say that we are free to decide, and those who decide for the status quo have done so freely, just as those who have decided for the Left have done so freely.

This is why I call right-wingers filth, for they choose this anti-human, anti-life philosphy of their own free will. People like Supermodel understand this, but choose it anyway. They choose suffering for the many. They choose pain and death for others, but hold themselves separate.

They are, truly, horrible.

vox

[Che Jexster]

You're certainly willing to show disdain for others.
I don't think conformity is chosen freely. Too many people who have rich parents decide to fit in. I don't think it's a concious choice but a subconcious one to fit in with others.
The catch lies in that those who are "forced" to fit in by others (through taunts and a deep seated desire to fit in) in turn force others into being someone that they really aren't.

[vox]

Che Jexster,

I'm as free in my disdain for the capitalist filth as any other comrade. Much like white supremicists, capitalist sympathizers choose their course. I do not apologize for my disdain. I embrace it.

People can react against taunts, and reject the taunter's philosophy, and people can question their own desires. We all have this capacity.

Neither is an excuse to champion a philosophy of inequality.

vox

[El Che]

quote from vox
for I, living in the USA, should, through both nature and nurture, value capitalist republicanism, but I do not.

Just out of curiosity vox were u born into wealth or into the proletariet? you certainly seen to have had an higher education...

[vox]

I am of the proletariat. Any education I have in Marx has been self-taught, and I say that any comrade here can do the same. Any education I've in philosphy is largely self-taught. It requires sacrifice, of course, for sometimes you do not want to sit and read a dry and boring book, but such things are necessary to argue rationally.

The public library is indeed one of our greatest social programs.

vox

[El Che]

indeed.

[Supermodel]

Vox, I love it!!!

My sword of diamonds, made by the many who toil in the diamond mines (ok there are seven of them and they are very short little guys), will swing regardless of how many tell me to give up my opinions.

I am not a capitalist sympathizer, I am a capitalist. I buy stocks, therefore I am a capitalist. What my opinions are towards politics are, is not influenced by my lousy stock picks (got any good tips)??

The "Who" in the prayer, while traditionally God, can be of course whatever higher power, including one's own psyche, one pays attention to.

My references to the human constructs of racism and class distinction were to say that these are not in the inherent nature of man, but came about through mis-education, fear and tribalism. Thus they can eventually be overcome, unlike things that are in the true nature of man.

While you may fear that I ignore the suffering of the masses, I can truly tell you that I am a great lover of all mankind and believe there are natural balances in every aspect of life. As a woman, a mother, and someone who has worked in the third world, I am immune to no-one's pain, for every child feels like my child.

Here's another cliche for you...."all things in moderation."

A lot of good debate on this site is muddled with extremist views on every possible side. Is the moderate view more threatening to you than the extreme opposite? I think so, because the moderate view will always sway the vast middle ground.

My distractions do not pose as the truth, but as opinion. My opinion. I have one. I don't borrow others'.

And every diamond in my possession I worked very, very hard for and the miners are darn glad I created a market for their toil. All seven of 'em.

[El Che]

In particular class distinctions and racial inequities are merely human failings and can be dismissed.


My references to the human constructs of racism and class distinction were to say that these are not in the inherent nature of man, but came about through mis-education, fear and tribalism. Thus they can eventually be overcome, unlike things that are in the true nature of man.

While i may agree with that racism is a result of miseducation, its is none the less a difficult problem to over come in a society that isn`t really concerned with advancing the human condiction as much as it is with other things. However to put class distinctions in the same sack as racism is a grave mistake that i hope is not intentional. To do so is to undermine the struggle. Class distinction is a social construction that can never and should never be dismissed, and that can only be over come through the construction of a new society, one without classes. Something that u might call extreme but that i call simple logic. Dont interpret my post as an atack but simply a difference of opinion.

(Edited by El Che at 4:27 pm on Feb. 5, 2002)

[Supermodel]

Didn't mean to equate the two el Che, but I was just trying to be international. While racism is one of, if not the, greatest social injustice in USA, I truly believe that the class system in countries such as UK, Spain, France, Italy, and India is a far greater problem in those countries. In India, class and race are somewhat interlinked.

I would never downplay the nature of racism, it's just my belief that is it truly something we can overcome, if we think with our brains.