On the subject of communism - help educate an uneducated sou

[MrOrange]

I know what communism is
a form of government where private property does not exist and all is owned collectively by the people.

What I don't know is how communism can work in real world governments and nations.Ive read the communist manifesto,infact I own it and while I do agree that everything written in it is a good idea it seems to me only plausible on paper.It just seems to go against the very nature of man's baser instinct of greed.The Soviet Union doesn't help explain how it can work to the benefit of the people due to Stalin's inhuman brutality of his own people and the fact that it seemed to me the Stalin's communism was just a way to produce his own personal war-machine to extenuate the boundaries of his motherland.Admittedly I don't know much about vietnam and how it works under its communist government but I do know that the biggest vietnamese employer is Nike.Infact,the only two countries Ive seen that have made communism into a somewhat succesful form of government are china and cuba,but even china allows more and more capitalism into their government so that only leaves cuba.

Is communism only workable in small nations?

Also communism seems to revolve around idolatry of a single being in place of religion which (was it lenin?) is the opiate of the masses.China and the chinese worship chairmn Mao,the russians,during their soviet regime loved Lenin and Stalin both.Infact,I believe it was required to have a picture of both in each home and to cubans living in Cuba Ive heard that they all love Fidel.Doesn't that go against the communistic principle of overall equality amongst all men?

As to the cuban matter ive heard many argue that most people would rather dare the open sea's to florida than live in Cuba,but isn't it true that Castro opened up the prisons and hospitals and emptied them when the U.S. was going on about an open door policy for any cuban who touched american soil.Also,aren't many of those who left cuba in the first place upper-class families that lost a fortune when Batista's admittedly corrupt reign was brought to an end?

I want to make it very clear that I ask these questions for my own personal enlightment and are not meant as a challenge or insult to any.I simply wish to have my questions answered by those who know more on the subject than I do.

[libereco]

religion which (was it lenin?) is the opiate of the masses

i just want to clear up this small bit...
marx said that religion is opium (or opiate?) of and Lenis said it's for the masses if i'm not mistaken.



(Edited by libereco at 6:36 pm on Jan. 20, 2002)

[peaccenicked]

Quote: from MrOrange on 5:33 pm on Jan. 20, 2002
.It just seems to go against the very nature of man's baser instinct of greed.

Bah . Humbug . Just because you are greedy does n't mean everybody else is.

[reggaenights20]

Mr. Orange- I think you brought up a great point when you mentioned greed as one of mans baser instincts and that the concept of greed makes you question communism. I have ran into that very same arguement and while I cannot say I have proof that greed isn't an inherent trait I can say that I feel we as humanity can get beyond that. As an example i'll use buddhism and the way that selflessness, cooperation and a sense of community can be learned. These men such as the Dalai Lama seem to have gotten beyond "greed" and into a more all encompassing and fair way of looking at things. If they and so many other great spiritual leaders can do it than why can't we? I feel that we as humanity were given the minds and the resources to be able to get beyond greed. People wil always say that there will be greedy people out there but if enough people come together who have trancended it and show an example to those who haven't, than many generations down the line I believe people wil be equiped for a perfect communist state. I hope all thsi made sense for you:) I'm not really an expert in the matter and this is merely a rough outline of some of the things that i've been thinking of. I hope this help you in some way. If you have any questions of whatever let me know.

[MJM]

I refute your claims on the dalai lama.
He's a member of an elite ruling class of land and slave owners. A supposed beloved leader of the tibetans trotted out to show how communism is evil.

[peaccenicked]

all this nonsense about greed.
I can you accuse millions of hungry people of being greedy. How can you accuse workers accept a pay cut to keep a company going of being greedy. how can you accuse poor people that give more than the rich to charity of being greedy. How about workers who go out to save jobs. The miners strike in Britain last a year.
Greed and self interest are not the same thing one ifleft unchecked can destroy the planet. The other genuine self interest can save it.

[MrOrange]

I don't doubt by any measure man's ability to transcend greed someday.I think some confusion was added by what is meant by greed.Greed is not only man's hunger for monetary and material things but also his want of power and control over others.I did not mean to say everybody is greedy, but we all have the capacity to be so.It is one of our baser instincts because greed can sometimes be a matter of survival and that is man's prime instinct.

As to peaccenicked's comment,I do not accuse these millions of hungry people of being greedy.Their hunger problems stem not out of choice but of necessity and even the fact that they are hungry might prove man's instinct for greed. If one of these starving people found a bit of food would it be more likely for him to keep it for himself or share it with his community?I don't know where you got the fact of poor people contributing more to charity than rich people so I shall not comment on it.However,I do agree with you that greed and self-interest are not exactly the same thing.Related, but not the same thing.Doesn't self-interest,however go against the basic tenet of communism to not heed the individuals but the communities will?I would be willing to retract my comment saying that all human beings are greedy but I would replace it with that all human beings have certain self-interests.

I agree with reggaenights20 as to the fact that humans can transcend greed and most other human vices and that some groups of human beings can and are completely and utterly selfless and practice the art of caring not for oneself but for others.However,while Budhism is a large religion it's still only an isolated pocket amongst the largely self-interested world.Most of you here on this site should know that the world is run by capitalistic nations and organizations that exploit man's want of power and materials in exchange of service.It's an unfortunate thing but the reality nonetheless.
Awaiting answers eagerly
Mr. Orange

[peaccenicked]

Marx poses it like this.
'I am egoistic I want the world
I am egoless I want to share it'
What is there to transcend only those own the world
and don not want to share it.
Maybe if the most of the world was really greedy we would have it by now.

(Edited by peaccenicked at 11:07 pm on Jan. 22, 2002)


(Edited by peaccenicked at 11:08 pm on Jan. 22, 2002)

[Pillar of Maturity]

There will always be bad people on this planet, and there will always be good people. It's the people in between that need to be transformed. If you look at Nazi Germany, there were a few horrible people at the top and a few incredible people at the bottom who helped Jews, Communists, Homosexuals and the others escape. It's the people in between who made everything possible, however. Now if such a large population could be accepting of something as horrible and fake as Nazism--The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, Germany inspiring ancient Egyptian arts?--the population could obviously be even more accepting of something good and truthful. Just as this board has shown, no society will ever be 100% accepting of Capitalism. No society will be 100% accepting of Communism, either. It's the 85-90% of the population who are in the middle and need to be inspired and can be inspired one way or another that we should reach out to. Maybe greed is a human trait. Maybe it's not. But the need to feel useful and helpful and loved is definitely part of human nature. We can show people that they can not only be loved by their families. They will be loved by all of society--a society that will appreciate their contributions. There will always be people who are still unmotivated, such as reaganlives. As long as there are people like Che who are committed to the leftist causes, a Communist society that keeps people involved and excited will work.

[peaccenicked]

Quote: from Pillar of Maturity on 6:28 am on Jan. 23, 2002
There will always be bad people on this planet, and there will always be good people.
communism is a stateless society 'bad' people (or would be criminals) would have there needs fufilled since
birth. crime will become like some old stupid thing that humans used to do under conditions of poverty and State cruelty.

[HardcoreCommie]

Peace do you really distance "criminals" from their personal responsibility over their actions to the extent that they are all the results of "poverty and state cruelty,"

[peaccenicked]

No
I am saying it is possible to eliminate the causes of crime. People should be held responsible for their own actions .