Isn't it annoying how they say Communism killed...

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

Over and over I see people with a minute knowledge of left-wing politics telling me that Communism killed 100 million people. I combat this by saying that if you try to rapidly industrialise two large, overpopulated agricultural backwaters with past histories of famine, more food shortages are bound to occur under any economic system. If a free-market system was used to industrialise Russia and China in the same space of time, the famines could arguably have been worse. Thus blaming those deaths on Communism is really, really pushing it, especially when one considers point number two.

Further, there is the fact that many Average Americans refuse to accept; the past century's self-proclaimed left-wing autocrats and demagogues have never, ever, been proper examples of Communist thought or theory, in a similar way to how America claims to be "democratic" yet it simply is a kind of representative plutochracy. Either way, the lie that those nations were living up to the original ideologies promoted during the revolution was and is told to keep people complacent.

Even more interesting, the people killed by said autocrats were sometimes the most leftist in the country. Trotskyists, anarhists and the like were some of the more profilic victims of political persecution in the USSR, for example.

[nightwatchman]

Oh I know what you mean comrade people always use that saying when they try to counter an agruement, and I reply to that by asking well how many people do you think capitalism has killed, think about it, all the poeple in latin america, africa, and just name of anything you can think of. I haven't seen any numbers or anything but come on its got to be at least 100 million people. That usually works for me.

[Luís Henrique]

Find the data for child mortality in China and India (which are countries with a comparable GNP per capita), and ask if the higher rate in India is due to capitalism.

Do not forget to translate the mortality rates in actual numbers of dying children.

Luís Henrique

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 01:07 am
Further, there is the fact that many Average Americans refuse to accept; the past century's self-proclaimed left-wing autocrats and demagogues have never, ever, been proper examples of Communist thought or theory, in a similar way to how America claims to be "democratic" yet it simply is a kind of representative plutochracy. Either way, the lie that those nations were living up to the original ideologies promoted during the revolution was and is told to keep people complacent.
that's your liberal opinion, but definately isn't fact. As for "Communism killed 100 million", communism didn't, the movements actually in the end improved living standards, literacy, and the general health of the working populations. China had been having famines before Mao nearly every year, by 1970 however, it would, for the first time in history be able to feed its entire population.

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

that's your liberal opinion, but definately isn't fact
No? I think in the end the sort of things Marx wanted really never happened.

And Marx himself was never the sole authority on the matter of Communism. Kropotkin and Bakunin would disagree with you outright.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 05:47 am
by 1970 however, it would, for the first time in history be able to feed its entire population.
You mean, for the first time since the European encroachments in the XIX century (up to the XV century, China was arguably the richest civilisation on the planet).

Luís Henrique

[Nusocialist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 05:47 am

that's your liberal opinion, but definately isn't fact.
No it is the general anarchist opinion.

[Ol' Dirty]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 01:07 am
Further, there is the fact that many Average Americans refuse to accept; the past century's self-proclaimed left-wing autocrats and demagogues have never, ever, been proper examples of Communist thought or theory, in a similar way to how America claims to be "democratic" yet it simply is a kind of representative plutochracy. Either way, the lie that those nations were living up to the original ideologies promoted during the revolution was and is told to keep people complacent.

that's your liberal opinion, but definately isn't fact.

Don't call him a liberal, especialy when he's making good points that are far better than yours. Anyway, he's on your side. Don't alienate him just because he's smarter than you.


As for "Communism killed 100 million", communism didn't, the movements actually in the end improved living standards, literacy, and the general health of the working populations. China had been having famines before Mao nearly every year, by 1970 however, it would, for the first time in history be able to feed its entire population.

First off, I am genuinely interested in seeing the statistics you base your claims on.

Second-hand, there are quite a few instances in the PRC that have either directly or inderectly killed hundreds of thousands, perhaps even millions, of people. The Cultural led the country to a state of civil war and mass killing, along with the TSM and others.

[Janus]

We've discussed the "authenticity" behind these statistics plenty of times in History and politics.

[TheGhostOfTomJoad]

Agreed, it is rather easy to reply to this argument, seeing as many of the "victims of communism" were _not_ part of a legitimate movement. (At least in my opinion.) It is rather easy to see how Capitalism has claimed the lives of many more. The argument I generally present when people say that everything around me was build on Capitalism is by replying, "The argument isn't whether or not Capitalism can erect buildings, but in attempting to justify the deaths of everyone necessary to steal the land this was build on, and the exploitation of the laborers needed to harvest the natural resources needed to build it as well as those needed to construct the structure itself.

From http://www.victimsofcommunism.org/:


Because of this, the Cold War victory remains incomplete. A free society must not allow itself to be content until everyone recognizes Communism is a road to terror and oppression.

Oh brother. :rolleyes:

[MrDoom]

It would be horrible if that Victims of Communism memorial had an unfortunate accident.

[Nusocialist]

How can anyone be a victim of non-xistent communism,it doesn't make snese,as this site says those countries never even claimed to be communist,it is just propaganda to label them communist.

[TheGhostOfTomJoad]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 01:55 am
It would be horrible if that Victims of Communism memorial had an unfortunate accident.
I wholeheartedly agree. Such a structure should serve a constant reminder to future generations that communists are just evil, and should not be subjected, but not limited to, the following: Paint bombs, spray paint, axes, hammers, chisels, ice picks, foul-smelling liquid, projectiles of any kind, or high-speed motor vehicles.

[piet11111]

that victims of communism website has one thing right

the specter of Communism still haunts the capitalist world
italics are mine ofcourse.

[Coggeh]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 01:55 am
It would be horrible if that Victims of Communism memorial had an unfortunate accident.
lol just checked there and its not working ... might just be blocked or something for me .... ah meh :rolleyes:

[lithium]

What I hate is when intelligent people who actually know a bit of history tell me about forced labour and poverty in the USSR and how so many people died as a result of Communism.

"It wasn't because of Communism. USSR was not Communist."

"omfg how can you say that! Of course it was!"

"*sigh* By definition a Communist society is one without class or a state. USSR had both. Therefore it was not Communist."

"...oh right..."

[Comrade J]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 12:36 am
What I hate is when intelligent people who actually know a bit of history tell me about forced labour and poverty in the USSR and how so many people died as a result of Communism.

"It wasn't because of Communism. USSR was not Communist."

"omfg how can you say that! Of course it was!"

"*sigh* By definition a Communist society is one without class or a state. USSR had both. Therefore it was not Communist."

"...oh right..."
I wish the people I argued with would simply say "oh right" when I tell them this - they all seem to be stubborn bastards who continue to tell me I'm wrong.

[Nemichka]

ugh, that is one of my biggest pet peeves- people trying to tell me communism is bad by using the USSR as an example. They don't listen to logic, and I end up just banging my head on the desk while they ramble on about "ZOMG, then stalin TOTALLY KILLED PPL, now don't you see, COMMUNISM IS BAD?!?!?!"

[LSD]

Isn't it annoying how they say Communism killed..., 100 million people?

Um ...yes?

I don't quite see the point of this thread. This is a communist message board, it's not like anyone's going to disagree with that statement.

Wait, you're wrong, I think that communism killed 100 million people but I'm a commie anyway!! :rolleyes:

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

Maybe it might have made for a better Opposing Ideologies post, but I figured it was worth a little collective disproving of a silly idea.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

Oh I know what you mean comrade people always use that saying when they try to counter an agruement, and I reply to that by asking well how many people do you think capitalism has killed, think about it, all the poeple in latin america, africa, and just name of anything you can think of. I haven't seen any numbers or anything but come on its got to be at least 100 million people. That usually works for me.



Well, a lot of capitalists, especially Libertarians have an annoying answer to that.

They'll say that capitalism in actual fact exists only in Switzerland and Austria and some states of the US, and look how prosperous they are, etc etc

They'll never admit that the famine in Africa had anything to do with capitalism.

I've tried it.

"Oh but capitalism is where everyone is free to trade and own private property, and where there is minimal state interference" blah blah blah FUCKING BLAH text-book definitions of "free enterprise" and all that neo-liberal clap-trap. :angry: