So what shoould be done about the U.S.A.? [Archive]

The Boondocks

22nd January 2007, 22:11

Like many people, I was witness to the new plan in Iraq on TV from the so called president of the U.S. Like many people, I was enraged, pissed off, dissapointed, and furious at pretty damn much everything he said. His plan is shit. Anyone can see this. It doesn't take a genius to see that it will fail like all of the other plans he has laid forth. In everyway possible the plan is just implausible, poorly planned, and more over represents the absolutely ludacris reality that the US is trying to take over the world (or at leat the power driven government). MY question is, what can I do about it. What can WE do about it as a society. I live in Canada, and though the US does not have to take into consideration what I think, I still feel that it is in my globe of interest to aid in the fight against this authoritarian take-over and destruction of morals and ethics.

What is there to do? What are we going to do about the U.S.A.?

All replies and ideas are welcome. I hope that more than anything this post will provide a forum for ideas that will influence peoples minds, and eventually spark a change.

Moreover, I feel somewhat lost as a Canadian. I don't vote on American election day. So what power do I have?

Cyanide Suicide

22nd January 2007, 22:23

I hate to sound pessimistic but to be honest I don't think there is much we can do.

Atleast at this point in time. I am anxious to see some of the ideas generated by this thread though.

Karl Marx's Camel

22nd January 2007, 23:47

Boicotting, protesting, demonstrating, attacking embassies?

Phalanx

23rd January 2007, 02:09

Continue to organize workers. France has a large number of powerful trade unions, and this should be our model. Resurrecting the trade unions are absolutely necessary if we'd like to take any steps towards revolution. Because as of right now, workers in America are hopelessly disorganized and are in no shape to make real steps forward.

OneBrickOneVoice

23rd January 2007, 04:03

A revolution in the US would probably look more like the October Revolution than any of the other revoltions which were more people's war based. Trade Unions and worker actions as well as mass street level organization would be essential I think.

SPK

23rd January 2007, 06:19

Canada can help by taking in war resisters and deserters from the amerikan armed forces, and by not making them to go back to the usa. Opposition in the military is among enlistees is definitely growing, because the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are going so badly for the imperialists. So there is an increasing number of people looking for a way out. :)

khalam_1232000

23rd January 2007, 07:27

several large nukes.

Nothing Human Is Alien

23rd January 2007, 08:02

http://www.shutdownthewarmachine.com

EwokUtopia

23rd January 2007, 08:29

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 06:19 am
Canada can help by taking in war resisters and deserters from the amerikan armed forces, and by not making them to go back to the usa.
Yeah, We do have 40 here applying for refugee status, but its a real struggle with Stephen Hitler in charge of our country. I helped at a war resisters benefit gig this week actually, and a war resistor spoke to us about the problems you go through making that call. These are infinately brave individuals, lets just hope Canada doesnt hop on a bigger more stupid war to kiss bush's ass like the current government does, else we may all have to flee to Iceland.

Guerrilla22

23rd January 2007, 22:11

people in the US should do everything in their power to stop the US war machine, in the meantime people in other countries, such as Canada, the UK and Australia should put pressure on their own governments to stop supporting US imperialist adventures over seas, instead of merely pointing out that something needs to be done about the US.

Comrade_Scott

23rd January 2007, 23:13

the way i see it and i hate to see it like this bush should send more troops. they willingly and joyously fucked open iraq with bad plan and plan to leave it like this?? no life is not like that. You drop the ball you fucking well pick it up mabey now with this ***** slap they recived they wont pick on smaller states and sort out there own issues (which they have alot of) so my sorrow towards the mothers and fathers of the troops but hey you got youreself into this mess you YOU voted him in legitimately for a second term and i said this when he came in in 04 you get what you fucking well deserve. Nuff said.!!!! <_<

Severian

24th January 2007, 07:09

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 04:11 pm
people in the US should do everything in their power to stop the US war machine, in the meantime people in other countries, such as Canada, the UK and Australia should put pressure on their own governments to stop supporting US imperialist adventures over seas, instead of merely pointing out that something needs to be done about the US.
Bingo. Canada is also an imperialist power, in a much smaller way. Its upper class also exploits working people all over the world. Its military is also in Afghanistan, freeing up U.S. troops to concentrate on Iraq.

Its navy participated in enforcing the 12-year-long brutal "economic sanctions" that killed hundreds of thousand of Iraqis.

Let those of us in the U.S. concentrate on "what should be done about the USA", and ask instead: "what should be done about Canada?"

ComradeR

24th January 2007, 11:12

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 11:13 pm
the way i see it and i hate to see it like this bush should send more troops. they willingly and joyously fucked open iraq with bad plan and plan to leave it like this?? no life is not like that. You drop the ball you fucking well pick it up mabey now with this ***** slap they recived they wont pick on smaller states and sort out there own issues (which they have alot of) so my sorrow towards the mothers and fathers of the troops but hey you got youreself into this mess you YOU voted him in legitimately for a second term and i said this when he came in in 04 you get what you fucking well deserve. Nuff said.!!!! <_<
You agree with the troop surge? your joking right? The collapse of Iraq into a country similar to Somalia is inevitable at this point. The only way you could possibly avert this now is to send enough troops to make movement for the guerillas and militias anywhere in the country impossible. This would require millions of additional troops, something the US does not have. This 20,000 odd force they're sending isn't even enough to secure (and actually hold) Baghdad let alone Anbar province and the rest of the country.

mabey now with this ***** slap they recived they wont pick on smaller states
Yeah right, the US didn't learn anything from Vietnam (Iraq shows this quite well). Not to mention that they're preparing for a war with Iran right now (increasing the size of the armed forces, deploying more carrier groups to the gulf, doubling petrol reserves etc).

LuÃs Henrique

24th January 2007, 11:41

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 07:09 am
Let those of us in the U.S. concentrate on "what should be done about the USA", and ask instead: "what should be done about Canada?"
Generally, yes, we should concentrate first on fighting "our own" rulling class - even if it is not an imperialist one, as in my particular case.

But should someone paraphrase Churchill to tell us "the United States is too much of a serious issue to be left just to Americans", I would find it difficult to retort.

Luís Henrique

Reuben

24th January 2007, 12:01

Originally posted by Severian+January 24, 2007 07:09 am--> (Severian @ January 24, 2007 07:09 am)
[email protected] 23, 2007 04:11 pm
people in the US should do everything in their power to stop the US war machine, in the meantime people in other countries, such as Canada, the UK and Australia should put pressure on their own governments to stop supporting US imperialist adventures over seas, instead of merely pointing out that something needs to be done about the US.
Bingo. Canada is also an imperialist power, in a much smaller way. Its upper class also exploits working people all over the world. Its military is also in Afghanistan, freeing up U.S. troops to concentrate on Iraq.

Its navy participated in enforcing the 12-year-long brutal "economic sanctions" that killed hundreds of thousand of Iraqis.

Let those of us in the U.S. concentrate on "what should be done about the USA", and ask instead: "what should be done about Canada?" [/b]
Severian is right here . I recently socialist[I]made a post on the Socialist Unity Blog (http://socialistunity.blogspot.com/2007/01/on-anti-americanism-and-british.html) describing how anti-american sentiment is undermining our ability to build genuinely anti-imperialist sentiment in Britain. It obscures the fact that the British ruling class have their own motives for a militaristic and interventionist foreign policy (the fact that BP accounts for 7 per cent of GDP and the level of British investment abroad is of course relevant here). Moreover it lets the govenrments of countries of countries such as canada britain and australia off the hook if we fail to recognise their genuine agency and room for manouvere in, say, the decision to go to war in Iraq.Most importantly, reducing imperialism to a matter of 'stopping america' blunts the class struggle.

Angry Young Man

24th January 2007, 19:45

Burn down the cities until only the lizards survive. Then take his head off and parade it through the streets of New York. Then fly it to Havana and present it to Castro as an ashtray. Then dig up Bedford Forrest's grave and desecrate his rotting carcass. Do similar with Custer. Then burn the churches, looting in the process. Then give the booty to the hungry. Then disarm the nukes. Then fly back to England and have a cup of tea and a fag. Then storm London. Burn the whole stinking place to the ground. Then sort out the NHS.

Or you could do what my mate said happened in Fight Club. Or summat in the vein.

**Edited to remove possible liabilities** - CDL

Comrade_Scott

24th January 2007, 23:29

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 05:12 am

You agree with the troop surge? your joking right?
i say that meaning that they screwd the nation and they should pay the price. If i recall they screwd it with open arms and smiles on the faces.... and now they say its the iraqis fault for the violence (and more troops keep on joining the army) if they want to join a death march let them! you sew what you reap and the american army top brass and the rest wont learn till they get hurt. Again i am sorry for the parents and family of the troops but they joined of free will and fucked iraq time to pay up.

Comrade_Scott

24th January 2007, 23:33

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 05:12 am

Yeah right, the US didn't learn anything from Vietnam (Iraq shows this quite well). Not to mention that they're preparing for a war with Iran right now (increasing the size of the armed forces, deploying more carrier groups to the gulf, doubling petrol reserves etc).
Invade iran!! :rolleyes: dude im sorry but i cant belive any country (even the u.s) would be dumb and so pig headed as to invade iran. No ome country is that dumb meaning if it does go through (which i doubt) and no rebellion happens then they deserve what they get

Guerrilla22

25th January 2007, 18:07

Originally posted by Comrade_Scott+January 24, 2007 11:33 pm--> (Comrade_Scott @ January 24, 2007 11:33 pm)
[email protected] 24, 2007 05:12 am

Yeah right, the US didn't learn anything from Vietnam (Iraq shows this quite well). Not to mention that they're preparing for a war with Iran right now (increasing the size of the armed forces, deploying more carrier groups to the gulf, doubling petrol reserves etc).
Invade iran!! :rolleyes: dude im sorry but i cant belive any country (even the u.s) would be dumb and so pig headed as to invade iran. No ome country is that dumb meaning if it does go through (which i doubt) and no rebellion happens then they deserve what they get [/b]
Yeah, you would think the neo-cons and everyone else who advocated a "pre-emptive strike" on Iraq would have been throughly discredited, yet the same ignorant fools who told us Iraq had "stock piles of WMDS" are now warning us of the grave threat posed by Iran's nuclear program.

Janus

25th January 2007, 23:19

So what power do I have?
Canada does support the US's imperialist ventures to a certain degree so that alliance is one place to start.

Demonstrations are also good: there's going to be a major peace march in Washington DC on the 27th.

The Boondocks

2nd February 2007, 20:42

Thanks for the ideas :D

Cheung Mo

2nd February 2007, 22:10

I support nationalising our oil industry, along with our other natural resources. Too many American, Chinese, and corporate interests are controlling OUR resources. If we allow foreign and domestic forces of crony capitalism to control Canada's vast riches, we will always be subvervient, we will never be free, and we will never succeed in building socialism.

fidel59

3rd February 2007, 13:41

One thing that will help is lots and lots of imperialist troops dead!
More and more u.s dollars going to fight there never ending wars.
And a goevernment that dont give a shit about its people.
Unrest in the streets, a capitalist economic system in ever
deeper do-do.
If revolutionary change is to ever to come about here in the
u.s, working class people will have to lose more and more
and will have to see the ruling class for what there are
(and they dont yet!) To many fat asses just setting watching the tube.

redflagfires

4th February 2007, 02:41

Originally posted by The [email protected] 22, 2007 10:11 pm
Like many people, I was witness to the new plan in Iraq on TV from the so called president of the U.S. Like many people, I was enraged, pissed off, dissapointed, and furious at pretty damn much everything he said. His plan is shit. Anyone can see this. It doesn't take a genius to see that it will fail like all of the other plans he has laid forth. In everyway possible the plan is just implausible, poorly planned, and more over represents the absolutely ludacris reality that the US is trying to take over the world (or at leat the power driven government). MY question is, what can I do about it. What can WE do about it as a society. I live in Canada, and though the US does not have to take into consideration what I think, I still feel that it is in my globe of interest to aid in the fight against this authoritarian take-over and destruction of morals and ethics.

What is there to do? What are we going to do about the U.S.A.?

All replies and ideas are welcome. I hope that more than anything this post will provide a forum for ideas that will influence peoples minds, and eventually spark a change.

Moreover, I feel somewhat lost as a Canadian. I don't vote on American election day. So what power do I have?
I think the "Patriot Act" should be amended[severely] or abolished.
This would be a step.

Kropotkin Has a Posse

4th February 2007, 03:52

What is it that they say? "There is a policeman inside of everyone's head. He must be destroyed."

For any hope of political revolution we must first win the social revolution, and open the eyes of the people who'd rather not see.

RGacky3

4th February 2007, 04:06

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 03:52 am
What is it that they say? "There is a policeman inside of everyone's head. He must be destroyed."

For any hope of political revolution we must first win the social revolution, and open the eyes of the people who'd rather not see.
I think people deciding to do things them selves rather than support politicians is a huge step, and there is a very very low percentige of votership in the US now, which I think is a good thing, one explination could be they don't trust the politics.

Severian

4th February 2007, 08:32

Originally posted by Luís Henrique+January 24, 2007 05:41 am--> (Luís Henrique @ January 24, 2007 05:41 am)
[email protected] 24, 2007 07:09 am
Let those of us in the U.S. concentrate on "what should be done about the USA", and ask instead: "what should be done about Canada?"
Generally, yes, we should concentrate first on fighting "our own" rulling class - even if it is not an imperialist one, as in my particular case.

But should someone paraphrase Churchill to tell us "the United States is too much of a serious issue to be left just to Americans", I would find it difficult to retort.

Luís Henrique [/b]
Fighting one's own ruling class is often the best thing one can do about the U.S., also. Since it's often a client or ally of Washington. And since the world's dominant imperialist power is affected by every revolutionary explosion worldwide.

Certainly this is true for someone in another imperialist country - there's no other answer that's apparent other than supporting one's own ruling class against Washington.

And Canada especially has a huge problem with nationalism on the left - even more than in most imperialist countries. That's part of why I responded as I did.

Nothing Human Is Alien

4th February 2007, 08:42

And Canada especially has a huge problem with nationalism on the left - even more than in most imperialist countries.

Yes indeed.

The Advent of Anarchy

5th July 2007, 03:22

Stop buying American goods.

Check if it's from the United States. If it isn't from the U.S., buy it. Nothing made in America should be bought.

Labor Shall Rule

5th July 2007, 04:13

I think the key would be ongoing agitation and organizing; considering that only twelve percent of the workforce is unionized, we need to re-build working class organizations that are more militant and class conscious, based not only on collective bargaining, but also on introducing worker's control over the means of production. It would also be essential to integrate the fight for socialism with other mass movements in order to increase the overall participants in the class struggle as a whole - this would include the immigrant, anti-war, anti-fascist, prisoner, feminist, homosexual, and black liberation movements that we could gain a foothold over.

But none of this will truly matter until we have a capitalist crisis, which is why I think it is also important to endorse anti-imperialist struggles, in order to strike out foreign investments and loans in underdeveloped regions, which would weaken the position of global capital. In Iraq, I think we should stretch our hands in solidarity to the workers, who have accumulated an enormous potential to seek revolutionary demands in the event of oppression from both the nationalist bourgeois and imperialist occupiers.

Ultra-Violence

5th July 2007, 18:58

i think us amreicans have to step shit up im tired of protesting We have to block trains and shit and cargo ships civil discobedince sure it will be only a small group of poeple but its worth a shot and shit hey we might even inspire som people!

What do u guys think?

and overseas
try to do the same

and maybe we could all start an anti tax campiang around the world!

the possibiltys are endless

Outmoded

5th July 2007, 19:26

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 02:22 am
Stop buying American goods.

Check if it's from the United States. If it isn't from the U.S., buy it. Nothing made in America should be bought.
So, rather a lot of mainstream music, films and a sizable degree of media, then.

In any case, boycotting America's minor exported products wouldn't make a dent in their economy. America's true wealth comes from arms, oil and other multinational enterprises.

Trying to stop the US on anything but an international scale is a futile hope. Sorry.

Faux Real

5th July 2007, 21:12

The only plausible scenario in which it can be stopped is by international trade. No export/import, thus setting off a new great depression. Then and only then can Americans stop watching Paris Hilton, Lindsay Lohan and other non-newsworthy tripe on TV and become conscious of the state we're living in.

Black Cross

5th July 2007, 21:39

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 08:12 pm
The only plausible scenario in which it can be stopped is by international trade. No export/import, thus setting off a new great depression. Then and only then can Americans stop watching Paris Hilton, Lindsay Lohan and other non-newsworthy tripe on TV and become conscious of the state we're living in.
I agree that it would be the only plausible way of stopping the USA, if it was at all plausible. How would you stop the US from importing and exporting? You would need a large alliance of many other countries. And if that's the case, then we may as well just go to war.

I think that war would be the only way to truly stop america. Everyone already hates us, so that part is already taken care of. The hard part would be getting a coalition of other countries together to fight against a common enemy. This could be done, I think, by igniting the flames of socialist revolution and then trying to spread them to other countries. I do not think that a revolution is possible in america, for quite some time at least, but if we brought it to enough countries, I'm sure we could get them to form some sort of alliance against america.

Also, I like the sound of what ultra-violence said, but I just don't think there would be any impact if we did that. A small group can have a big effect, as history has shown, but the media would just taint our acts and say it was terrorism; everyone, including the working class, would believe the media, and we'd be locked up for social disorder. I just don't think this is a possibility, with a small group of people, that is, in america.

Faux Real

5th July 2007, 21:47

How would you stop the US from importing and exporting? You would need a large alliance of many other countries. And if that's the case, then we may as well just go to war.

I think that war would be the only way to truly stop america. Everyone already hates us, so that part is already taken care of. The hard part would be getting a coalition of other countries together to fight against a common enemy.

Yes, if there is a country/coalition large enough to take the USA over I would see them resort to it economically beforehand.

Either one of those methods can work, but the first would at least avoid a huge death toll(and not put me in line of fire :D).

PRC-UTE

5th July 2007, 22:09

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 23, 2007 08:02 am
http://www.shutdownthewarmachine.com
All US-based comrades: follow that link and get involved!

Black Cross

6th July 2007, 03:09

Originally posted by PRC-UTE+July 05, 2007 09:09 pm--> (PRC-UTE @ July 05, 2007 09:09 pm)
Compañ[email protected] 23, 2007 08:02 am
http://www.shutdownthewarmachine.com
All US-based comrades: follow that link and get involved![/b]
It's june fifth, haha. But there are still ways to get involved. Plenty of links hosted by this site, even.

Either one of those methods can work, but the first would at least avoid a huge death toll(and not put me in line of fire ).

Haha, you inspire us all with your courage.

Ultra-Violence

7th July 2007, 02:05

but the media would just taint our acts and say it was terrorism; everyone, including the working class, would believe the media, and we'd be locked up for social disorder. I just don't think this is a possibility, with a small group of people, that is, in america.

fuck the media. and ya theyll call us domestic terrorist but our message will get threw . and dont be so quick to judge the american working class will eat up what the media feeds to em but slowly thier staring to get the taste of shit in thier mouth and slowly waking up even thouhg its just a little for now. and it can start with a smalll gruop of dedicated people but we can ispire other people to take similiar action.

Glory to Bethune

8th July 2007, 21:22

We must organize for the destruction of the united $tates. All this nonsense about the "ruling class" misses the point that bourgeoisified Amerikkka is the ENEMY of the international proletariat. Amerikkka is almost 100% on the side of imperialism, and that won't change until the imperialist system is severely disrupted. Amerikkka will be defeated from without, not from within.

Hiero

9th July 2007, 00:31

Just have to hope there is enough IEDs to go around.

Black Cross

9th July 2007, 17:16

Originally posted by Glory to [email protected] 08, 2007 08:22 pm
We must organize for the destruction of the united $tates. All this nonsense about the "ruling class" misses the point that bourgeoisified Amerikkka is the ENEMY of the international proletariat. Amerikkka is almost 100% on the side of imperialism, and that won't change until the imperialist system is severely disrupted. Amerikkka will be defeated from without, not from within.
I agree, as I have related in one of my earlier posts, but tread lightly; big brother is always watching. At some point, what we say can start to sound like threats, rather than general discussion, and there's no sense in getting locked up for that.

Rawthentic

9th July 2007, 17:57

I couldn't agree more with RedDali's analysis of what to do.

Only agitation and organization, the raising of communist politics in mass movements and worker struggles.

SocialistMilitant

9th July 2007, 23:10

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 11:31 pm
Just have to hope there is enough IEDs to go around.
Most importantly, hope that the Iraqi's can put their sectarian issues aside and fight the imperalists. But that would only stop them in Iraq. So who's next? Iran? Venezuela? We need to stop imperalism as a whole. A revolution is the only solution.

Ultra-Violence

10th July 2007, 02:11

A revolution is the only solution.

yeah we all want a revolution but i don see one happening soon and if their is one america is the last place their more likely revolution in euorpe or some '3rd world'
country

civil disobedience,propaganda and agitation,education

then violent revolution

Labor Shall Rule

10th July 2007, 03:49

Glory to Bethune

12th July 2007, 08:04

Nobody said that Amerikkka is irreversibly an enemy. Amerikkka will have to be sent for communist re-education, just as the Germans were under Soviet occupation. But Amerikkka is indeed a hardened enemy. Reversing that will not be easy.

Amerikkka must be smashed. Amerikkkans, INCLUDING their "left" wing, will probably turn fascist as communist revolution spreads throughout the world. Why? Because Amerikkkans are sucking the blood of the Third World and therefore have a class interest in maintaining imperialism. You see that when 80% of Amerikkkans support the U$ invasion of Iraq (and really it was close to 100%, since most of the opposition to the war was motivated by selfish interests rather than internationalist solidarity with the people of Iraq). You see it when Amerikkkans back the Minutemen and other fascist groups against the Latino nations.

It should be clear that Amerikkkans are getting far more than their fair share of the world's production. That means that they will stand to lose materially from socialism. They'll benefit in the long run, but in the short run they'll see their incomes go down. I don't see why that's so hard to understand, yet most of the Amerikkkan "left" refuses to face facts.

Faux Real

12th July 2007, 08:37

Amerikkkans, INCLUDING their "left" wing, will probably turn fascist as communist revolution spreads throughout the world.

No, Americans will finally get a sense other than that of the FOX News/CNN tools and look at what real human people around the world have chosen for the betterment of their people.

Why? Because Amerikkkans are sucking the blood of the Third World and therefore have a class interest in maintaining imperialism.

I agree, we have been spoiled to a degree but the me mentality has been subjugated into their minds by our material conditions. Once that barrier falls down that form of thinking will eventually wither away. Nobody is born with the idea that they have a divine right simply because they were born in a specific situation.

You see that when 80% of Amerikkkans support the U$ invasion of Iraq (and really it was close to 100%, since most of the opposition to the war was motivated by selfish interests rather than internationalist solidarity with the people of Iraq).

Again, this was sold to the American people through their major news outlets. All they kept seeing 24/7 were reruns of the Twin Towers falling down, Bush mentioning Al Quaeda, Sadaam Hussein and WMDs in every single speech given, not to mention the screaming pundits on every channel, self proclaimed "experts", "reliable sources", and a receipt of a purchase for uranium from Africa over two decades ago.

You see it when Amerikkkans back the Minutemen and other fascist groups against the Latino nations.

Agreed, though most of those are southerners who think that undocumented workers are "steelin r jobbs." Influenced again, by the private media. I don't see very many white folk gardening, babysitting, housecleaning, or cleaning toilets for their fellow "middle class" Americans. Of course, in urban areas, this whole Norteño vs Sureño gang beef shit really doesn't help and turns people away...

It should be clear that Amerikkkans are getting far more than their fair share of the world's production. That means that they will stand to lose materially from socialism. They'll benefit in the long run, but in the short run they'll see their incomes go down. I don't see why that's so hard to understand, yet most of the Amerikkkan "left" refuses to face facts.

I agree. The sad thing is that people in America for now think that the Democratic Party is a leftist alternative to the Republicans. Both hold no allegiance to any ideology in the interests of their voters other than to the dead president$$$.

Joseph Ball

13th July 2007, 00:17

Originally posted by Marxist-rev+July 09, 2007 04:16 pm--> (Marxist-rev @ July 09, 2007 04:16 pm)
Glory to [email protected] 08, 2007 08:22 pm
We must organize for the destruction of the united $tates. All this nonsense about the "ruling class" misses the point that bourgeoisified Amerikkka is the ENEMY of the international proletariat. Amerikkka is almost 100% on the side of imperialism, and that won't change until the imperialist system is severely disrupted. Amerikkka will be defeated from without, not from within.
I agree, as I have related in one of my earlier posts, but tread lightly; big brother is always watching. At some point, what we say can start to sound like threats, rather than general discussion, and there's no sense in getting locked up for that.[/b]
Marxist-rev says be careful when calling for the destruction of the USA. Even the Sandista's used to sing 'The Yankee is the enemy of the human race' in their anthem. So we can say that too.

Internationalists want US imperialism smashed. This means destroying its state and its economic system (which is based on the exploitation of oppressed nations). How you do this is another matter. Socialist revolutions in the oppressed nations would lead to the economic strangulation of US imperialism and the destruction of US society as we know it. This is because the basis of US prosperity in the super-exploitation of the oppressed nations would be gone.

The US and the UK are the number one enemies of humanity. If the UK government wants to lock me up for believing that, then probably it would be beneficial for the struggle against imperialism. Currently the UK fascist state only really exercises dictatorial power against muslims (though there is serious discrimination against all ethnic minorities). The overwhelming majority of the people in these countries are racist so the suppression of muslims doesn't bother them. If they exercised dictatorial power against a secular, non-muslim critic of USA/UK, it would be good propaganda that might have some effect on the thinking of oppressed peoples. Don't forget some oppressed nation people aspire to copy the west with all its freedoms and prosperity.

The suppression of people with opinions like mine would bring to light the contradictions that exist in the Western nations-the contradiction between democratic values espoused by western governments and the real basis of the power of these nations-the violent suppression of the oppressed nations. After all, I'm not about to go out and bomb anyone, or incite anyone else to do so. So if the UK exercised dictatorial power against me and others of a similar mind they would have to admit to some very uncomfortable truths about the basis of their power and the bankruptcy of their so-called democratic values.

MarxSchmarx

13th July 2007, 07:54

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 07:37 am
Agreed, though most of those are southerners who think that undocumented workers are "steelin r jobbs." Influenced again, by the private media. I don't see very many white folk gardening, babysitting, housecleaning, or cleaning toilets for their fellow "middle class" Americans. Of course, in urban areas, this whole Norteño vs Sureño gang beef shit really doesn't help and turns people away...

Amen, comrade. Salvation for the U$A lies in the huddled masses coming from the global south. The elite of those countries have no incentive to move. It is the indigenous people that stand by Chavez, AMLO, Marcos and Morales that are moving north.

They might not be politically active, but their kids are. Much of that country now looks like the third world, with gated communities and extreme wealth inequality. The AngloSaxons WILL lose their country. And not a moment too soon for the rest of us.

Comeback Kid

13th July 2007, 11:13

Dont need a weather man to tell me its rainin.

southernmissfan

13th July 2007, 20:19

As others have stated earlier, the "social revolution" should be a constant priority. Backwards, pre-capitalist attitudes such as racism, religion, etc., should be opposed at every possible opportunity.

SandyAnon

13th July 2007, 20:30

Amerikkkans are no good. They are parasites.

They need a forced re-education by the international proletariat. They need to get the fuck off Indigenous and Mexican land. They should be scattered to the winds.

Janus

14th July 2007, 05:33

Amerikkkans are no good. They are parasites.
All of them?

They need a forced re-education by the international proletariat.
Are you implying that the US working class is not part of the international proletariat?

How exactly do you plan on building international solidarity when you are so willing to write off an entire nationality?

They should be scattered to the winds.
:blink:

SandyAnon

14th July 2007, 07:54

I'm not implying. I am straight up saying it! Amerikkans aren't even close to being proletarian. Amerikkans are scum of the Earth. One does not build solidarity with the jackboot on one's throat.

Listen up parasites: you need a remedial education in humynity. Don't worry, the international proletariat will see that you get one!

hajduk

14th July 2007, 10:49

AMERICA IS NOT THE PROBLEM,THE PROBLEM IS PEOPLE WHO LEEDS AMERICA IN THAT KIND OF POLITIC SO REMOVE THEM AND FOR AWHILE YOU WILL SOLVE THE PROBLEM

Joseph Ball

15th July 2007, 14:46

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 07:30 pm
Amerikkkans are no good. They are parasites.

They need a forced re-education by the international proletariat. They need to get the fuck off Indigenous and Mexican land. They should be scattered to the winds.
I think this is where we tend to get into the realms of fantasy. The yanks have nuclear weapons, they are not going to let anyone scatter them to the four winds, even if they were surrounded by hostile socialist states.

I think economic strangulation is a better approach. If you look at the massive OPEC oil price rises in the early 70s you can see what an impact this can have. Of course this was lead by bourgeois states and undermined by Saudi Arabia. But if such a movement was lead by socialist or progressive states it would be different. Maybe we need to study ideas like Samir Amin's de-linking (without endorsing all his ideas).

Also revoution is about making allies, as well as enemies. The typical yankee worker would lose out materially from world socialism but don't forget the median wage has been stagnant for some time. On the other hand the average per capita income in the world rises between 2 and 3% a year. So in theory, in a few decades we would get to the point where the median yank worker would not lose out from world socialism (though they wouldn't get much benefit either) and would qualify as part of the middle forces.

Of course, this is a one-sided way of looking at it. For one thing, the historical tendancy is for western governments to find ways of priviliging their workers at the expense of the Third World. At the moment US capitalists want to bring the wage of US workers down to ensure their own profitability. This is because US capitalism needs to make a profit on the exploitation of its own workers (albeit they remain priviliged). Competition from low-wage producers overseas and immigrants is a good way of disciplining the working class. But if it goes too far the oppoisite tendancy of western imperialists-to privilige their workers by exporting exploitation and crisis to the Third World-could well kick in again. This would prevent any tendency to renewed class warfare in the first world-the main priority of western governments. I would suggest the most effective means the imperialist nations could find is restricting immigration (protectionism protects the wages of some First World workers but tends to raise prices of imported goods so may not be much use in raising real wages).

Therefore we have to look out for an intensifying of the alliance between western capitalists and white western workers against immigrants.

But let's not prejudge things. Communists need to be always finding sections of the western working class it can ally with to make the task of global revolution easier. At the moment that's mainly immigrants and the real poorest of poor whites. But if things change in the future we might be able to extend our alliances to include some western workers-who are currently antagonistic towards socialism-as middle forces. Let's open up the debate and avoid dogma.

EwokUtopia

16th July 2007, 06:33

Maoists spell funny.

Congratulations sandy, you are the second person who has ever got me to defend Americans, the first being an incredibly racist Romanian I met atop a mountain in Transylvania (no jokes, he said we should nuke America and make the world a better place, as well as that the gypsy's are like animals and are the biggest problem for Romania. When I woke up the next morning, this guy was staring at me.).

Somehow I get the feeling that Maoists (In the radically violent and borderline racist, yet guiltfully amusing way that Sandy provides) are far closer to Nazbols than to actual leftists.

Fuck, and I thought I had a rep for anti-Americanism. I guess the fact that I dont want to kill or enslave them makes me a moderate... :P

Severian

16th July 2007, 06:34

I think it's interesting how many people in other imperialist countries are leading the charge against "Amerikkka". Bethune is posting from Canada, SandyAnon from somewhere in Europe, and of course the thread starter is from Canada.

Ya just don't see the same level of vitriol, or calls for "economic strangulation", from any of them, directed against their own ruling classes. It may be that these posters may have a stronger nationalist impulses than most workers in the U.S. IMO the tendency to support one's own imperialists against Washington is especially strong on the Canadian left.

SandyAnon

16th July 2007, 06:38

Severian gives us a great example of identity politricks and pigwork.

Firstly, facts matter, not who says them.

Secondly, this is a good lesson why revolutionaries should use proxy services. Because people like Severian like to help out the pigs by releasing information on people.

EwokUtopia

16th July 2007, 06:44

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 05:34 am
IMO the tendency to support one's own imperialists against Washington is especially strong on the Canadian left.
They are largely the same. Its not that we support it against Washington, its that we grow up half-American. By this I mean I can name the last 10 presidents, but maybe the last 4 prime ministers. At the same time as we are half in the American sphere, our own identity also plays strongly, and it is much less crazy by comparison. We tend to ignore our own faults alot because compared with those of the US, who we are so close to we are almost the same as, this gives us our own identity, its the Canadian comparison, and we are notorious for it... just watch one episode of this hour has 22 minutes.

I blame the fact that most of our TV, which has unfortunately done alot by way of raising kids in the 80's/90's is American, and that when we watch American TV, the accents and situations are so extremely similar that we tend to forget about the border.

Basically what Im saying is that Canada has sort of an identity crisis. on one hand, we are extremely close culturally to Americans, and at the other, there are many cultural differences (the gun thing, the slavery thing, the god thing, the nuke thing, the iraq thing) that freaks us out and makes us distance ourselves from them.

Thats Canadian Anti-Americanism in a handbasket.

xskater11x

16th July 2007, 06:48

Severian is right though, if you are external to the United States, there should be no debate by you on how to stop the United States unless you are planning to come here yourself to stop it, as most of the worlds other governments aren't in much better a state.

Really, the only way I see fit to stop anything about the American system of economy and government is to wait for another depression and then have a well organized uprising. That way people would be more likely to join, as overthrowing the ruling class would provide more progress then letting them get richer coming out of the depression later on as others get poorer. Right now, capitalism "seems" to be working out just fine for the majority of the blinded American society.

Severian

16th July 2007, 08:14

Originally posted by EwokUtopia+July 15, 2007 11:44 pm--> (EwokUtopia @ July 15, 2007 11:44 pm)
[email protected] 16, 2007 05:34 am
IMO the tendency to support one's own imperialists against Washington is especially strong on the Canadian left.
They are largely the same. Its not that we support it against Washington, its that we grow up half-American. [/b]
Really? 'Cause your whole post is "we" this and that about Canada. Nothing about any class differentiation within Canada.

If anti-Semitism is the socialism of fools, then anti-Americanism is the anti-imperialism of fools.

EwokUtopia

16th July 2007, 08:46

Originally posted by Severian+July 16, 2007 07:14 am--> (Severian @ July 16, 2007 07:14 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 11:44 pm

[email protected] 16, 2007 05:34 am
IMO the tendency to support one's own imperialists against Washington is especially strong on the Canadian left.
They are largely the same. Its not that we support it against Washington, its that we grow up half-American.
Really? 'Cause your whole post is "we" this and that about Canada. Nothing about any class differentiation within Canada.

If anti-Semitism is the socialism of fools, then anti-Americanism is the anti-imperialism of fools. [/b]
Class differentiation is much the same in Canada as it is in the States, though we do have a bit less disparity.

Anti-Semitism is the Socialism of fools? I thought it was the racism of the overly paranoid.

ECD Hollis

16th July 2007, 14:21

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 11:47 pm
Boicotting, protesting, demonstrating, attacking embassies?
Your kidding? Is this how the left acts? With violence? I don't even have to debate with you guys, my point is proven.

Listen I don't like Bush, and I am a conservative, but to think you would actually promote violence against the USA is just ridiculous.

Joseph Ball

16th July 2007, 20:58

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 05:34 am
I think it's interesting how many people in other imperialist countries are leading the charge against "Amerikkka". Bethune is posting from Canada, SandyAnon from somewhere in Europe, and of course the thread starter is from Canada.

Ya just don't see the same level of vitriol, or calls for "economic strangulation", from any of them, directed against their own ruling classes. It may be that these posters may have a stronger nationalist impulses than most workers in the U.S. IMO the tendency to support one's own imperialists against Washington is especially strong on the Canadian left.
I was waiting for my old friend Severian to make his/her contribution. I don't think its helping the pigs too much to say that I hate my own ruling class in the UK as much as I am against America. British people share in the same privilige as the US Labour aristocrats. They have the same racist attitudes as yanks. They are not quite as sickeningly patriotic as the yanks in the sense of all the hand on heart flag worshipping stuff. The patriotism of the Brit is expressed purely negatively through pettiness, spite and malice to those they exploit and trample upon. Our only hope is to get a minority of Brits to detach from all this and become internationalist and then try and build some sort of alternative.

rebel_lord

16th July 2007, 21:56

Originally posted by Cyanide [email protected] 22, 2007 10:23 pm
I hate to sound pessimistic but to be honest I don't think there is much we can do.

Atleast at this point in time. I am anxious to see some of the ideas generated by this thread though.

Hello all: Yeah u are right, with so much confusion, the capitalist media propaganda, propagating confusion, mental viruses, wrong ideas, and twisting reality on how the world works, it's hard to help americans wake up from their capitalistic nightmare. It is hard, in this monstrous machine of USA. There is not much to be done, but we have to be possivists :-)

rebel_lord

Kenhoma

18th July 2007, 03:39

Having grown up in the southern part of the united states I have to say a few things. Religion, racism and just plain ignorance practically makes that area a lost cause for Leftist awakening. Lower class whites from this region have a history of insane nationalism based on the idea 'somebody is trying to take our stuff'. Seriously. Is this not where most of the military is recruited from? Were they not the supporters of plantation slave holders such that the 'Rebel Flag' is still proudly displayed centuries later? I believe any form of revolution attempted in the USA will be violently opposed with hunting rifles wielded by 'God fearing rednecks'.