Revolutionary bands on major labels

[mrfancycrackers]

I'm no revolutionary but I listen to a lot of punk and was wondering your folk's perspective on this stuff. I believe I have a friend who goes here (Hi Brendan).

Do you believe bands such as Anti-Flag and Rage Against the Machine are a good thing for your movement, or do they attract idiots and discredit your cause? I don't know if you would want the average Anti-Flag fan trying to get people into anarchism. Ha.

Also, do you think they are "selling out" by using capitalistic means to distribute their music on a wide scale rather than staying "indie"? In the punk scene people always ***** on and on about that (about Against Me! in particular)

Sorry for using generalizations and buzzwords. Don't get on me if Anti Flag and Rage aren't Revolutionary in the proper way, you know what I'm getting at here.

Also, the Rage Reunion is the GREATEST thing to ever happen to anyone, ever, in the history of the world.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 12:39 pm
Also, do you think they are "selling out" by using capitalistic means to distribute their music on a wide scale rather than staying "indie"? In the punk scene people always ***** on and on about that (about Against Me! in particular)
No. One, if you have a message, wouldn't you want to spread it as widely as possible? And if that message is revolutionary -well, a revolution has to be made by millions of people, you can't be elitist or secretive about it.

Two, indie labels are also capitalist - just smaller businesses. Some indie purists have a whole ideology around it, but it's a small-business ideology, not an anti-business ideology.

I think the whole indie/punk purist thing has less and less to do with real politics. It's partly about promoting small business, partly about trying to something culturally different (which doesn't necessary mean politically different) and partly....trying to keep their subculture as a neat little self-contained community without letting too many new people in.

Sort of substituting for the old-fashioned small-town kind of community - which gets ruined if too many people move in. That's fine if people want to do that, I can see the appeal, but it doesn't have anything to do with revolutionary politics.

[which doctor]

I believe what you are speaking about is called "recuperation."


Originally posted by Wikipedia+--> (Wikipedia)Recuperation is the process by which society takes a radical or revolutionary idea and repackages it as a saleable commodity.[/b]

Such commodities have no place in a real revolution, only a fake revolution that has been plastic wrapped, slapped with a barcode, and sold at your local box store.

Bands such as RATM and Against Me! don't hurt the revolutionary cause, but they also don't really help it all that much.


Originally posted by [email protected]
you can't be elitist or secretive about it.
What is elitist and secretive is selling CD's for $20 and concert tickets for $250.


Severian
Two, indie labels are also capitalist - just smaller businesses. Some indie purists have a whole ideology around it, but it's a small-business ideology, not an anti-business ideology.
There are many "indie labels" who share their music through a Creative Commons license. They are not out to make money, they are out to share their music. They are not a business and are not out to make a profit.

Here are some quotes from a book I have.

Person 1: But it was seeing bands on major labels playing shows at big clubs that got me into punk in the first place.
Person 2: Maybe - but if those same bands and all the ones who wanted to be like them had put their energy into expanding the underground network instead of following in the footsteps of the rock stars before them, the underground would be big enough and well known enough by now that we'd never have to work with those motherfuckers again!

and another...

One political band playing a show to 9000 people can recite revolutionary slogans for everyone present to stand and listen to, but they remain out of arm's reach of most of the people there, up on a pedestal as "musicians", "artists", "heroes". On the other hand one band playing an equally impassioned show to 100 people in a more intimate setting can interact on a personal level with everyone there and making it clear that everyone is capable of doing what they do. Thus they have the potential to spark 4 more bands (or similar revolutionary projects), increasing their impact exponentially.

[Fawkes]

To an extent I agree with both FoB and Severian.

[Hate Is Art]

One, if you have a message, wouldn't you want to spread it as widely as possible? And if that message is revolutionary -well, a revolution has to be made by millions of people, you can't be elitist or secretive about it.

You're not gonna create a revolution by writing songs about revolution. Elitism is the attitude big bands have towards their fans, many indie label bands aren't elitist at all.


Two, indie labels are also capitalist - just smaller businesses. Some indie purists have a whole ideology around it, but it's a small-business ideology, not an anti-business ideology.

It's an anti big business ideology. Which is the best way.

[redcannon]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 10:39 am
Also, do you think they are "selling out" by using capitalistic means to distribute their music on a wide scale rather than staying "indie"? In the punk scene people always ***** on and on about that (about Against Me! in particular)


well, look at The Casualties. when they started selling their stuff at hot topic they said it was to "spread the message to a wider public." but seriously, hot topic? thats great if your trying to turn a bunch of prep poser capitalists into prep poser anarchists.

[rvn10]

isn't Audioslave revolutionary? All of the guys except the singer were part of Rage Against the Machines.

[Fawkes]

No, they're not. They rarely sing about politics. In fact, the reason why RATM broke up was because Zach was to serious about politics and the other three just wanted to make music.

[Ander]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 06:12 pm
No, they're not. They rarely sing about politics. In fact, the reason why RATM broke up was because Zach was to serious about politics and the other three just wanted to make music.
I knew those other bastards weren't fucking socialists.

[Ander]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 06:12 pm
No, they're not. They rarely sing about politics. In fact, the reason why RATM broke up was because Zach was to serious about politics and the other three just wanted to make music.
I knew those other bastards weren't fucking socialists.

[Severian]

Originally posted by FoB+January 22, 2007 08:34 pm--> (FoB @ January 22, 2007 08:34 pm) Such commodities have no place in a real revolution, only a fake revolution that has been plastic wrapped, slapped with a barcode, and sold at your local box store.i] [/b]
Indie albums are also commodities. So, for that matter, are most books.

It's not which business is selling a recording or book that makes it revolutionary or not: it's the content. Rage has problems and limits, to be sure: but they'd be the same if they were on an indie label.


What is elitist and secretive is selling CD's for $20 and concert tickets for $250.

I saw Rage for a lot less than that. And I haven't generally noticed that indie albums are differently priced than major-label albums.

As for what makes indie elitist, see the original post: "Do you believe bands such as Anti-Flag and Rage Against the Machine are a good thing for your movement, or do they attract idiots and discredit your cause? I don't know if you would want the average Anti-Flag fan trying to get people into anarchism. Ha."

We all know similar sentiments are common among indie and punk scenesters about new people coming into the scene. If it stays small, it's easier to foster the sense of community and norms of community/subculture behavior. OK, fine, but that has nothing to do with revolutionary politics.



Severian
Two, indie labels are also capitalist - just smaller businesses. Some indie purists have a whole ideology around it, but it's a small-business ideology, not an anti-business ideology.
There are many "indie labels" who share their music through a Creative Commons license. They are not out to make money, they are out to share their music. They are not a business and are not out to make a profit.

It may be that some indie labels are non-profit, but most aren't. And using "Creative Commons" doesn't make you nonprofit.

I've seen interviews where indie-label people explicitly argue for the whole indie-label purist idea by comparing them to mom-and-pop stores. It's consciously pro-small business.


Person 1: But it was seeing bands on major labels playing shows at big clubs that got me into punk in the first place.
Person 2: Maybe - but if those same bands and all the ones who wanted to be like them had put their energy into expanding the underground network instead of following in the footsteps of the rock stars before them, the underground would be big enough and well known enough by now that we'd never have to work with those motherfuckers again!

In which case the "underground" indie labels would be big businesses.


[i]One political band playing a show to 9000 people can recite revolutionary slogans for everyone present to stand and listen to, but they remain out of arm's reach of most of the people there, up on a pedestal as "musicians", "artists", "heroes". On the other hand one band playing an equally impassioned show to 100 people in a more intimate setting can interact on a personal level with everyone there and making it clear that everyone is capable of doing what they do. Thus they have the potential to spark 4 more bands (or similar revolutionary projects), increasing their impact exponentially.

So here we have the merits of only reaching a few people again. Also the cultural project of trying to tell everyone they can have their own band. Again: there's nothing wrong with that cultural project, but there's nothing especially political about it either.

Plenty of indie and punk scenesters are totally apolitical or even right-wing.

Real politics begins when you have not just 9000 people, but millions.

[ahab]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 02:34 am

Bands such as RATM and Against Me! don't hurt the revolutionary cause, but they also don't really help it all that much.


I think they help , I always hear about how people only got into politics because of RATM, maybe they dont necessarilly promote radicalism, but theyre definately the spark that ignites some peoples interest in leftist politics