Commies, do me a favor

[wtfm8lol]

Tell me everything that it wrong with the Zionists and Israel. This is important.

[Comrade Marcel]

Why don't you tell us everything that is right?

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 10:38 pm
Tell me everything that it wrong with the Zionists and Israel. This is important.
Jews Against Zionism (http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/)

Boycott Israeli Goods (http://www.inminds.co.uk/boycott-israel.html)

These websites should give you some answers.

[wtfm8lol]

Why don't you tell us everything that is right?

I can't tell you anything that is right. I know barely anything about it.

Johnny, I thank you.

[colonelguppy]

europe felt guilty about the holocaust. still didn't really like jews though. so they gave them a homeland, without regard to reality. insert last 50 years of history, i don't really blame either party.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 10:38 pm
Tell me everything that it wrong with the Zionists and Israel. This is important.
Er, what you mean apart from forcibly evicting an entire population from their homes and farmlands at gunpoint of an entire sovereign country who lived there legitimately since the time of muhammed? :blink:

Oh and if you want more bedtime reading, google 'Sabra and Shatila massacres'

[wtfm8lol]

Er, what you mean apart from forcibly evicting an entire population from their homes and farmlands at gunpoint of an entire sovereign country who lived there legitimately since the time of muhammed?

Nono..include that part too. I don't like Israel either. I just want to know why I shouldn't like them.


Oh and if you want more bedtime reading, google 'Sabra and Shatila massacres'

thanks

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 05:47 pm
Nono..include that part too. I don't like Israel either. I just want to know why I shouldn't like them.

Why don't you like israel if you dont know whats wrong with them.

[wtfm8lol]

Why don't you like israel if you dont know whats wrong with them.

I mainly don't like Israel because it is causing turmoil in the middle east for religious purposes. I place blame on both the Muslims and the Jews for fighting over superstitious ancient texts, but I don't like how Israel is being stubborn and putting its citizens at risk while murdering the citizens of countries around it because it feels it has some right to that land.

[The Bitter Hippy]

I think wtfm8lol is after a more detailed, informed list of specific problems with zionism. Not an argument with pre-supposed knowledge about the historical rights or wrongs.

[wtfm8lol]

I think wtfm8lol is after a more detailed, informed list of specific problems with zionism. Not an argument with pre-supposed knowledge about the historical rights or wrongs.

Yes, exactly.

[KickMcCann]

I'll attempt a crack at it.

-It desires a "purified" nation-state populated soley by Jews, ignoring or resisting the mixed, multiethic, and multicultral reality existing in every country in the world.

-It was founded on the ideals of Imperialism and western supremecy. European Jews thought they were colonizing, modernizing, and even liberating a barren desolate land sparsely populated by primitive nomads, although in fact the population was close to 500,000 when Zionist settlers first arrived while agriculture and urban culture were also well developed.


-Israel calls itself a Western Democratic state, but maintains discriminatory laws against non-Jews within their claimed territorial boundries, refusing to give equal rights and citizenship to Non-Jews within their borders.

-Non-Jews are denied the freedom of movement through a restrictive passport and automobile license-plate system identifying an individual as Jewish or non-Jewish, the maintainence of numerous checkpoints blocking off non-Jewish areas from Jewish areas, and the notorious seperation wall which cordons many non-Jewish towns into kennels.

-Israel does not respect the right of property (A big one for you cappies). Non-Jews have no right to property; their homes, land, and assets can be seized and destroyed without warning or compensation by the Israeli government.

-Jews and non-Jews are forbidden to marry.

-Israel maintains Jewish religious courts (similar to Islamic theocracies) that can rule against non-Jews.

-Collective punishment for individual crimes- entire towns can be bombarded my the Israeli military for the actions of a few individuals acting on their own.

-Although "Jews" can make Aliyah and immigrate to Israel from around the world Jewish converts are not recognized as Jews by the religious courts, the definition of being Jewish is decided by blood not belief.

-Non-Jewish natives to the country are forbidden the right to return to their homes from exile.

And I'll even include religious reasons why Israel is bad-

-Many Jews view the establishment of a Jewish state to be a sinful act, as only the Messiah can establish a Jewish State upon his return.

-The Jewish Covenant with God obligates the Jewish people to follow the Torah as their guide to living and interacting with other people. The Torah can be interpreted as a law to establish and protect human rights. By oppressing the Palestinian people the Jews betray their Covenant and Torah.


I'm sure there is lenty more that others can add, those are just the ones of the top of my head.

[wtfm8lol]

thanks mate ^_^

[Cyanide Suicide]

Yeah that's a good summary KMcC.

[Vendetta]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 01:54 am
I'll attempt a crack at it.

-It desires a "purified" nation-state populated soley by Jews, ignoring or resisting the mixed, multiethic, and multicultral reality existing in every country in the world.

-It was founded on the ideals of Imperialism and western supremecy. European Jews thought they were colonizing, modernizing, and even liberating a barren desolate land sparsely populated by primitive nomads, although in fact the population was close to 500,000 when Zionist settlers first arrived while agriculture and urban culture were also well developed.


-Israel calls itself a Western Democratic state, but maintains discriminatory laws against non-Jews within their claimed territorial boundries, refusing to give equal rights and citizenship to Non-Jews within their borders.

-Non-Jews are denied the freedom of movement through a restrictive passport and automobile license-plate system identifying an individual as Jewish or non-Jewish, the maintainence of numerous checkpoints blocking off non-Jewish areas from Jewish areas, and the notorious seperation wall which cordons many non-Jewish towns into kennels.

-Israel does not respect the right of property (A big one for you cappies). Non-Jews have no right to property; their homes, land, and assets can be seized and destroyed without warning or compensation by the Israeli government.

-Jews and non-Jews are forbidden to marry.

-Israel maintains Jewish religious courts (similar to Islamic theocracies) that can rule against non-Jews.

-Collective punishment for individual crimes- entire towns can be bombarded my the Israeli military for the actions of a few individuals acting on their own.

-Although "Jews" can make Aliyah and immigrate to Israel from around the world Jewish converts are not recognized as Jews by the religious courts, the definition of being Jewish is decided by blood not belief.

-Non-Jewish natives to the country are forbidden the right to return to their homes from exile.

And I'll even include religious reasons why Israel is bad-

-Many Jews view the establishment of a Jewish state to be a sinful act, as only the Messiah can establish a Jewish State upon his return.

-The Jewish Covenant with God obligates the Jewish people to follow the Torah as their guide to living and interacting with other people. The Torah can be interpreted as a law to establish and protect human rights. By oppressing the Palestinian people the Jews betray their Covenant and Torah.


I'm sure there is lenty more that others can add, those are just the ones of the top of my head.
No arguments, but do you have any sources for that? I'd just like to back it up in any potential debate.

[wtfm8lol]

Originally posted by Carolina Communist+January 22, 2007 04:16 am--> (Carolina Communist @ January 22, 2007 04:16 am)
[email protected] 22, 2007 01:54 am
I'll attempt a crack at it.

-It desires a "purified" nation-state populated soley by Jews, ignoring or resisting the mixed, multiethic, and multicultral reality existing in every country in the world.

-It was founded on the ideals of Imperialism and western supremecy. European Jews thought they were colonizing, modernizing, and even liberating a barren desolate land sparsely populated by primitive nomads, although in fact the population was close to 500,000 when Zionist settlers first arrived while agriculture and urban culture were also well developed.


-Israel calls itself a Western Democratic state, but maintains discriminatory laws against non-Jews within their claimed territorial boundries, refusing to give equal rights and citizenship to Non-Jews within their borders.

-Non-Jews are denied the freedom of movement through a restrictive passport and automobile license-plate system identifying an individual as Jewish or non-Jewish, the maintainence of numerous checkpoints blocking off non-Jewish areas from Jewish areas, and the notorious seperation wall which cordons many non-Jewish towns into kennels.

-Israel does not respect the right of property (A big one for you cappies). Non-Jews have no right to property; their homes, land, and assets can be seized and destroyed without warning or compensation by the Israeli government.

-Jews and non-Jews are forbidden to marry.

-Israel maintains Jewish religious courts (similar to Islamic theocracies) that can rule against non-Jews.

-Collective punishment for individual crimes- entire towns can be bombarded my the Israeli military for the actions of a few individuals acting on their own.

-Although "Jews" can make Aliyah and immigrate to Israel from around the world Jewish converts are not recognized as Jews by the religious courts, the definition of being Jewish is decided by blood not belief.

-Non-Jewish natives to the country are forbidden the right to return to their homes from exile.

And I'll even include religious reasons why Israel is bad-

-Many Jews view the establishment of a Jewish state to be a sinful act, as only the Messiah can establish a Jewish State upon his return.

-The Jewish Covenant with God obligates the Jewish people to follow the Torah as their guide to living and interacting with other people. The Torah can be interpreted as a law to establish and protect human rights. By oppressing the Palestinian people the Jews betray their Covenant and Torah.


I'm sure there is lenty more that others can add, those are just the ones of the top of my head.
No arguments, but do you have any sources for that? I'd just like to back it up in any potential debate. [/b]
Agreed..sources would be splendid if it's not too much trouble.

[KickMcCann]

license plates
http://www.imemc.org/article/46471

the wall
http://www.humanitarianinfo.org/opt/docs/U...Rprt05_Full.pdf (http://www.humanitarianinfo.org/opt/docs/UN/OCHA/OCHABarRprt05_Full.pdf)

property rights
http://www.icahd.org/eng/news.asp?menu=5&submenu=1&item=392

religious laws and discrimination
http://www.religioustolerance.org/rt_israel.htm

forced expulsion
http://www.alnakba.org/testimony/testimony.htm

a purified state
http://www.counterpunch.org/shavit01162004.html

Jewish religious opposition to Zionism
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/index.htm

I think that should cover everything.....

[chimx]

I think it is important to bare in mind the counter arguments. 19th and 20th century antisemitism was quite strong. Read up on the Dreyfus Affair, there are countless books dedicated to it. Zionism is certainly not a post-wwii movement, but has its roots in how to deal with european racism.

fun fact: early zionists were often secular and didn't really care where their homeland was. they talked about creating it in africa as well as south america. they eventually decided upon palestine to get the orthodox jews onto their side as well as because historically jews were native to the area. neat!

[ComradeR]

Heres an interesting fact. Avraham Stern, the founder of the infamous "Stern gang" (the right-wing Zionist splinter group that broke with the Irgun, and was responsible for indiscriminate attacks that killed British, Arabs, and Jews) and who is considered a hero by the Israeli state, was impressed and influenced by the Fascist regime of Italy while he was living there. Stern even proposed an alliance with Nazi Germany, in 1941 he initiated contact with Nazi authorities to discuss an alliance against Britain, the only reason this alliance never formed was because the Germans turned him down.
Even knowning this Avraham Stern&#39;s memorial day is attended every year by Israeli political and government officials. In 1978, a postage stamp was issued in his honor. And in 1981 the town "Kochav Yair" (Yair&#39;s star) was founded and named after Stern&#39;s nickname. <_<

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by Love Underground+January 20, 2007 05:49 pm--> (Love Underground @ January 20, 2007 05:49 pm)
[email protected] 20, 2007 05:47 pm
Nono..include that part too. I don&#39;t like Israel either. I just want to know why I shouldn&#39;t like them.

Why don&#39;t you like israel if you dont know whats wrong with them. [/b]
What is wrong with Israel is that it shouldnt exist, it occupies Palestinian territory, it is harmful to Muslims in the area, it pushes Muslims out of their homes and kills children, and it doesnt allow Muslims the right of visiting the Holy Dome of the Rock

[seraphim]

Israel has the largest chemical, Biological, and Nuclear weapons stockpile outside of the USA, and yet the USA and the UK (allegedly) invaded Iraq to stop them producing such weapons which would &#39;destabalise&#39; the middle east. Hmmmmmmm

[Ze]

I think the most nefarious fact to despise Israel is the nerve of their leadership to ghetto-ize people into closed-in pens, kill them indiscriminately and treat them as second class citizens just as they were treated in nazi europe. fascists will be fascists. Free Palestine.

[Jude]

It would be completely redundant to say that everything would be resolved with the abolition of racism and anti-semitism. We can only hope that we shall have peace soon.

[wtfm8lol]

ok..so far all you&#39;ve done is appeal to emotions. i would sound like a pansy if i tried that argument (and i dont have any emotion but anger so it would be totally out of character) so is there any type of reason like they have a history of instigating or preemptively attacking the nations around it?

[BurnTheOliveTree]

so is there any type of reason like they have a history of instigating or preemptively attacking the nations around it?

Lebanon.

-Alex

[wtfm8lol]

the real reason i ask this favor is that my roommate is a super-zionist and whines every time i mention that i dont support israel or the tens of billions of dollars it has taken without the knowledge of the general public over the past few decades. he says things like "blah blah israel is under constant siege blah blah israel is the only middle eastern country that will cooperate with us and thats why we give them money blah blah israel has never entered an unprovoked war or evicted anyone blah blah" and its fucking irritating.

[BurnTheOliveTree]

I&#39;m less than inclined to help out given your "Bourgeoisie>Proletariat" thing.

-Alex

[wtfm8lol]

what ever are you talking about my dear alex?

[KickMcCann]

From a Western, imperialistic point-of-view as to why you shouldn&#39;t support Israel:

"We in the Western democratic world have struggled for the last 100 years in overcoming the worst blemish on our civilization--that of racism. On paper our nations were to be beacons of liberty to the barbaric and oppressed nations, but in practice the west deliberately maintained a system of second-class citizenship and active descrimination against ethnic, religious, and national minorities.
Thankfully we overcame those discrepancies and today all citizens of the western democratic world enjoy a free society. Israel however is stuck in the 18th century, it calls itself western and democratic yet continues to administer racist and discriminatory public policies against the minorities within her borders. We in the west though we had bade riddance to such archaic systems with the downfall of South Africa&#39;s Apartheid, but their is still one blemish left.
Just as we faced an ideological battle against communist totalitarianism today we face an ideological battle against islamic fundamentalism. The goal of the Cold War is the same as the War on Terror, to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt to the entire questioning world that our system is better- our values, traditions and democratic governments are morally and techically superior to communist and islamist domination. We won the Cold War, but the outcome of this current struggle is still uncertain. In facing this threat we must present a solid, uniform, united front against their backward ideology, our survival is dependent on it and a weak link in the chain could easily spell our collective doom.
Israel is that weakest link, disproving to an uncertain world that the West truely seeks freedom and democracy for all. We in the West cannot support or tolerate the existence of racist policies within a Western democratic government, either this racist government joins the bandwagon of freedom by giving everyone within its territorial borders equal rights and citizenship or it will find itself alone in the war between freedom and oppression. We in the west do not fight for a single group of people or nation, but for all people and all nations who believe in freedom, and we will only win the war when our side is free of all hypocrisy and exceptions."

Now before anyone goes tossing me in the cappy cage please note that I am merely playing the devil&#39;s advocate in the above piece, in my opinion the "western democracies" are founded upon and filled to the brim with hypocrisy, yet this of course differs with how they see themselves and it is from their self-perception that I criticize Israel as undermining the goals of the Western Democratic world.
I do hope it fits comfortably within the western capitalist world-view.
Free Palestine

[wtfm8lol]

thanks bro..any sources supporting israel&#39;s racist policies though?

[red_orchestra]

I&#39;m sure their are plenty of sources- I once saw a documentary by the CBC on Israeli patrol on the west bank and how they would refuse Muslim women and children to pass because they weren&#39;t Jewish - Muslim men had to wait 24 hrs before entering Israel and many of them were told after waiting they STILL couldn&#39;t enter because they were considered "trouble makers" - pure BS on the part of the Israeli army - they were just wanting to humiliate these men.
lots of emotional sob stories - but what got me was the sheer hatred that the Israeli soldiers had towards everyone Muslim - one guy even talks about "how much fun it would be to kill every last one"... obviously not a view shared by every Israeli.

[wtfm8lol]

ok so i think i&#39;ve got this all planned out..as soon as i find some nice sources to prove the israelis are racist, i tell him he can shove the whole "constantly under siege" bit up his ass because they&#39;re perfectly warranted in attacking someone who took away their homes and then denied them their full rights, and when he says israel is right in taking away their rights because the arabs are attacking them, i ask him if he thinks it would be ok to lock up all of the jews in the US if a couple of jews were pissed at the government and blew some shit up citing religious motives (he is jewish) and then he will say its different blah blah blah and i&#39;ll just say no its the exact same thing, but it just seems worse when its done to you and then i win amirite? critiques on the battle plan please