the proletariat is naturaly religious...

[R_P_A_S]

I was just thinking.. most of the proletariat..specially the indigenous people who are the ones who are possibly the most oppressed and dislocated from their land by the modern ruling class, they are very religious.. not christian or anything like that. But these people have their own religious rituals, and gods!

most if not all of them believe in some sort of prayer, ceremony and gods for a particular crop, or season.. etc. you guys know what I mean? take for example the Mayan population in souther Mexico and Guatemala. The Andes of Peru and Bolivia to name a few.. all these people have their own gods and holly beliefs.

i was just thinking that if a liberation movement starts and a revolution ends up overthrowing the current government of their respective countries, these people will most likely join in and rise up too. and they will be benefited. BUT what about the whole religion thing? dont you guys feel this will make them turn against the revolution and start a whole other conflict???? :unsure: :blink:

[encephalon]

Which is why a communist revolution needs to take place with the proletariat of highly advanced industrialized areas, not with modern day peasants.

Of course, mass industrialization hasn't exactly destroyed superstition; the US is the most religious of all nations. However, I would connect this to the unique evolution of the US economy and the effect of imperialism on the benefitting populous. While industrialized, the US can hardly be called an "industrial nation." The material circumstances brought by US imperialism have allowed religion to flourish more than most pre-industrial areas.

[YSR]

Marx says something, and I forget where, but I think it's right near his passaged about "religion being the opiate of the masses," that recognizes all this religion as a good thing. He says something (and I'm paraphrasing greatly) to the effect of "People are religious because life sucks hard without communism."

I agree with this. All the folk religions in the world don't bother me greatly. I mean, sure, they're wrong, and sure, they're fucked up, but when we start creating situations of people-controlled communities, religion will have no reason to exist.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by Young Stupid [email protected] 19, 2007 08:02 am
Marx says something, and I forget where, but I think it's right near his passaged about "religion being the opiate of the masses," that recognizes all this religion as a good thing. He says something (and I'm paraphrasing greatly) to the effect of "People are religious because life sucks hard without communism."

I agree with this. All the folk religions in the world don't bother me greatly. I mean, sure, they're wrong, and sure, they're fucked up, but when we start creating situations of people-controlled communities, religion will have no reason to exist.
i think these people.. indigenous tribes live good and are well with their religious beliefs and their gods for fertility and for crops and what have you.

whatever makes them think the sun is gonna come up the next morning. these people seem to live good and in harmony. I don't think those rituals and religious beliefs necessarily oppresses them.

I think is more like Christianity or any other imperialist religion they are subjected to by their oppressors..?? nah?

I say let them in the revolution and give them and allowed them their share of the land and the resources and respect their traditions and heritage.. their situation is special and different from lets say the average urban proletariat

[ComradeR]

How are we to take religion from them? simple, we don't. There's no reason to force people to give up religion even if we wanted to. All that needs to be done is break the shackles of exploitation, increase and equalize living conditions, and insure education for everyone to encourage scientific thought. If this is done religion will die out on it's own.

[Hate Is Art]

There is nothing natural about believing in some kind of higher being who changes the seasons or makes your crops grow better.

[Blue Collar Bohemian]

I don't understand why spirituality has to be removed. Organized Religions that use their dogma to control people, for sure, but I see no reason why people can't continue to have some sort of personal relationship with whatever deity or power they choose. Of course, once people aren't being force-fed belief, they may quickly die out, but no reason to violently strip people of ideas they've held their entire life.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by Blue Collar [email protected] 19, 2007 05:06 pm
I don't understand why spirituality has to be removed. Organized Religions that use their dogma to control people, for sure, but I see no reason why people can't continue to have some sort of personal relationship with whatever deity or power they choose. Of course, once people aren't being force-fed belief, they may quickly die out, but no reason to violently strip people of ideas they've held their entire life.
I know. I was just thinking maybe a group of people might.. kind of like telling them.. "well we are all atheist and we don't think you should believe in any gods or be spiritual!!" and that leads to creating an other class. you know

[t_wolves_fan]

Don't you need power over people to "take" something from them?

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 09:02 pm
Don't you need power over people to "take" something from them?
You are a troll and nothing more.

In terms of this discussion it is clear most of the power is hypothetical, as this is often the way with discussions of currently hypothetical systems.

[Lord Testicles]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 09:02 pm
that leads to creating an other class. you know
It won't lead to another class, but forcing people to be atheist will cause a lot of problems.

[Publius]

I'm becoming increasingly convinced that religion will not be going away any time soon, at least in most parts of the world.

Just imagine, if you will, a regular run-of-the-mill religious person. Now try imagining how a potential 'deconversion' would go. I can't help but think any arguments would ultimately futile against the emotional power that religion holds. It's like trying to convince someone who's blindly in love that 'she's really not going to come back.'

For some people, like me, who are less 'emotional' in thought, this isn't a problem, but of course, most of us are atheists in the first place. But to people who do feel the need for 'meaning' (I don't), there isn't, really, any argument you can make to convince them to give up religion.

For some contingent of the religious population, maybe a large one, atheism just is not 'on the table.'

At least, that's the impression I get. Add in the fact that even IF you can get the religious person to admit your arguments are right, they still might not believe you because they have you labeled as an 'agent of Satan' or something like that. Religion is, at its core, anti-intellectual. What could be more Satanic than some egghead pinko trying to secure them a one way ticket to hell? They're not going to listen to you, me, Sam Harris, or anybody else.

Sad but true.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 12:21 am
I'm becoming increasingly convinced that religion will not be going away any time soon, at least in most parts of the world.

Just imagine, if you will, a regular run-of-the-mill religious person. Now try imagining how a potential 'deconversion' would go. I can't help but think any arguments would ultimately futile against the emotional power that religion holds. It's like trying to convince someone who's blindly in love that 'she's really not going to come back.'

For some people, like me, who are less 'emotional' in thought, this isn't a problem, but of course, most of us are atheists in the first place. But to people who do feel the need for 'meaning' (I don't), there isn't, really, any argument you can make to convince them to give up religion.

For some contingent of the religious population, maybe a large one, atheism just is not 'on the table.'

At least, that's the impression I get. Add in the fact that even IF you can get the religious person to admit your arguments are right, they still might not believe you because they have you labeled as an 'agent of Satan' or something like that. Religion is, at its core, anti-intellectual. What could be more Satanic than some egghead pinko trying to secure them a one way ticket to hell? They're not going to listen to you, me, Sam Harris, or anybody else.

Sad but true.
THat's a brilliant post and there is not a word of it I don't agree with, I'm stuck for things to add to it or criticisms to make.

[ichneumon]

There is nothing natural about believing in some kind of higher being who changes the seasons or makes your crops grow better.

then why do people do it? why, in the history of mankind, has there NEVER been a society that didn't? hmmm.....

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 02:10 pm

There is nothing natural about believing in some kind of higher being who changes the seasons or makes your crops grow better.

then why do people do it? why, in the history of mankind, has there NEVER been a society that didn't? hmmm.....
That didn't think a "higher being" "makes your crops grow better"? There are manu of those, simply because many societies never "grew crops".

I don't see what's "natural" in ignorant people making up silly explanations to understand their existance. You might as well say it's "natural" for people in "developed" countries to watch TV :lol:

[Hate Is Art]

Then why do people do it? Why, in the history of mankind, has there NEVER been a society that didn't? hmmm....

Why? To explain how the seasons change, how the Sun travels across the sky, how thunderstorms happen, how we all got here etc.

Now we have science.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 12:21 am
I'm becoming increasingly convinced that religion will not be going away any time soon, at least in most parts of the world.

Just imagine, if you will, a regular run-of-the-mill religious person. Now try imagining how a potential 'deconversion' would go. I can't help but think any arguments would ultimately futile against the emotional power that religion holds. It's like trying to convince someone who's blindly in love that 'she's really not going to come back.'

For some people, like me, who are less 'emotional' in thought, this isn't a problem, but of course, most of us are atheists in the first place. But to people who do feel the need for 'meaning' (I don't), there isn't, really, any argument you can make to convince them to give up religion.

For some contingent of the religious population, maybe a large one, atheism just is not 'on the table.'

At least, that's the impression I get. Add in the fact that even IF you can get the religious person to admit your arguments are right, they still might not believe you because they have you labeled as an 'agent of Satan' or something like that. Religion is, at its core, anti-intellectual. What could be more Satanic than some egghead pinko trying to secure them a one way ticket to hell? They're not going to listen to you, me, Sam Harris, or anybody else.

Sad but true.
The thing is that "deconversion" needs to be focused to the younger generation, not in the older ones. It is difficult to convert old people, but not so difficult to convert younger ones.

[bezdomni]

Atheists gotta come from somewhere.

[Vargha Poralli]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 12:24 pm
I was just thinking.. most of the proletariat..specially the indigenous people who are the ones who are possibly the most oppressed and dislocated from their land by the modern ruling class, they are very religious.. not christian or anything like that. But these people have their own religious rituals, and gods!

most if not all of them believe in some sort of prayer, ceremony and gods for a particular crop, or season.. etc. you guys know what I mean? take for example the Mayan population in souther Mexico and Guatemala. The Andes of Peru and Bolivia to name a few.. all these people have their own gods and holly beliefs.

i was just thinking that if a liberation movement starts and a revolution ends up overthrowing the current government of their respective countries, these people will most likely join in and rise up too. and they will be benefited. BUT what about the whole religion thing? dont you guys feel this will make them turn against the revolution and start a whole other conflict???? :unsure: :blink:

As Trotsky said "Religion will only cease to exist completely with the development of the socialist system, that is, when technology frees people from degrading forms of dependency on nature, and amid social relations that are no longer mysterious, which are completely transparent and do not oppress people."

So we better develop better alternative and religion will dissappear within 2-3 decades.

That is what i said in another topic. I think it fits here perfectly.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 02:23 am
The thing is that "deconversion" needs to be focused to the younger generation, not in the older ones. It is difficult to convert old people, but not so difficult to convert younger ones.
So you need power over the younger ones.

Theoretically, of course.

[ichneumon]

Why? To explain how the seasons change, how the Sun travels across the sky, how thunderstorms happen, how we all got here etc.

Now we have science.

thus science is your techno-mythology. you believe it's true, you can prove that, but so can the siberian shaman. what's the difference? *functionally*, in terms of how your mind works, what's the difference?

if all the trappings and worship and huge temples are nothing, stupid, a waste of time, why hasn't there been a society that just didn't do that, which then beat out all the others, because it was more efficient? after all, killing 10,000 people by cutting their hearts out doesn't, so far as we know, make the new year come, so what's the point? wouldn't a society that didn't waste time with that crap win every contest? but why is it the USSR died from internal corruption and stagnation, after utterly failing to convince people not to be religious?

you people have NO idea what religion is, or what role it plays in human societies. your secular-saint said "religion sucks" so you go and attack anything vaguely religious, without understanding that a society has to have a central belief system to function - and that scientific atheism is inadequate for that purpose.

[R_P_A_S]

just how some parents scared the shit out of their lil kids and at sunday school. about hell and "naughty thoughts"

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 09:47 pm
just how some parents scared the shit out of their lil kids and at sunday school. about hell and "naughty thoughts"
That's their business, just like your children are your business.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by t_wolves_fan+January 24, 2007 02:32 pm--> (t_wolves_fan @ January 24, 2007 02:32 pm)
[email protected] 23, 2007 09:47 pm
just how some parents scared the shit out of their lil kids and at sunday school. about hell and "naughty thoughts"
That's their business, just like your children are your business. [/b]
"IF a man wants to abuse his own children that's his bussiness"

Fucking classy.

[RedAnarchist]

Originally posted by t_wolves_fan+January 24, 2007 02:32 pm--> (t_wolves_fan @ January 24, 2007 02:32 pm)
[email protected] 23, 2007 09:47 pm
just how some parents scared the shit out of their lil kids and at sunday school. about hell and "naughty thoughts"
That's their business, just like your children are your business. [/b]
It shouldn't be. Why should children have to be brought up to belive in god(s)? Just because the parents are comfortable with their religion doesn't mean that the child will be. Personally, I think that a good parent in this case is one who encourages their offspring to question everything and to follow their own idealogical paths.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by TAKN+January 24, 2007 02:40 pm--> (TAKN @ January 24, 2007 02:40 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 02:32 pm

[email protected] 23, 2007 09:47 pm
just how some parents scared the shit out of their lil kids and at sunday school. about hell and "naughty thoughts"
That's their business, just like your children are your business.
It shouldn't be. [/b]
It is. Deal with it. Otherwise when people tell you you're not raising your children "correctly", you'll have no basis on which to complain.


Why should children have to be brought up to belive in god(s)? Just because the parents are comfortable with their religion doesn't mean that the child will be. Personally, I think that a good parent in this case is one who encourages their offspring to question everything and to follow their own idealogical paths.

Then don't raise your children that way.


What's so hard about that?