Respect of Intolerant Cultures While Travelling

[Fawkes]

I thought making this thread after my English teacher told me a story: she and her friend were in Spain and they decided to go down to Libya just to visit it. While there, people on the street were asking the guy she was with how many camels it would cost to buy her and people were even spitting at her feet because her head was uncovered. Now, I know that nobody on this website would ever wear a burqa no matter where they were, but my question is, where does respect for different cultures end and staying true to your beliefs begin? I mean, should she have just ignored the offers, or should she have said something back (though it would probably have been in vain anyway)?

[Vargha Poralli]

In short don't undertake traveling in those places.Its is not a loss for us .But if you have no choice better follow all the customs they want you to do.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Maybe those guys just a moslem fanatic morrons...so they stuck unto what their belief. i hate this kind of people.

and maybe your teacher should ignore them.or spit back..

[Dimentio]

Originally posted by knight of [email protected] 19, 2007 06:31 am
Maybe those guys just a moslem fanatic morrons...so they stuck unto what their belief. i hate this kind of people.

and maybe your teacher should ignore them.or spit back..
Bad idea. One Swedish serviceman for Skanska was working on a project in Libya in the middle or late 1980;s. They had full of Libyan soldiers at their project-site, as a mean for protection/control, and the serviceman [he was not a worker but a treasurer] suspected that the soldiers stole money from the workers, so he got into their locker room and was discovered rooting amongst the clothes of the soldiers.

When he was in court, he lost his temper due to the Libyan court proceedings and lashed out that "Skanska could buy this shitty fascist country ten times around". The company barely managed to get him out, and after that, he was never allowed to travel abroad doing work for Skanska [or any company at all].

He had embarassed both Skanska and Sweden earlier in Sri Lanka, and endangered the lives of 3.000 Europeans there.

But some Middle Eastern and Northern African nations, among them Libya and Saudi Arabia are not so very tolerant to foreign workers or tourists. Saudi is probably one of the most racist countries which exists today.

[Hiero]

I find it hard to believe the story. I can't see why the locals of Libya would attempt to buy a foreign woman. Surely they would not expect to get away with it.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 02:06 pm
But some Middle Eastern and Northern African nations, among them Libya and Saudi Arabia are not so very tolerant to foreign workers or tourists. Saudi is probably one of the most racist countries which exists today.
then let's put Libya amongst those of you condemn racist country then

[Demogorgon]

Saying something back can provoke a fight, which is never a good idea when travelling abroad. The trouble is with the Libya example is that full Burkha's aren't even particularly popular there and certainly npt required by law so the people talking like that were likely simply trying to pick a fight anyway because your teacher was foreign.

When going to such places in general it is better not to cause trouble. Women in Iran are best off coveringtheir hair (not their faces, there is no requireent to do that) because otherwise there is likely to be trouble.

[Fawkes]

By the way, when I said Libya, I made a mistake, I meant to say Morroco. Anyway, I'm just using that one thing as an example, and I mean to have a discussion about what to do in situations like that, not a discussion about that specific example.

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 03:03 pm
By the way, when I said Libya, I made a mistake, I meant to say Morroco. Anyway, I'm just using that one thing as an example, and I mean to have a discussion about what to do in situations like that, not a discussion about that specific example.
Well I think in general my point still stands. If people are looking for a fight, don't give them it.

[Ander]

Ok, obviously you don't want to do anything in retaliation because you're in their country, there are most likely more of them, and they might kick your ass if not kill you. Your best bet is to simply ignore them or go somewhere where they will leave you alone. For example, your hotel or wherever you're staying, a store, etc.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 09:42 am
I find it hard to believe the story. I can't see why the locals of Libya would attempt to buy a foreign woman. Surely they would not expect to get away with it.
I don't, but that's because I've travelled quite a buit. My aunt and my sister have both been "up for sale", but it doesn't happen as much these days. I do agrew ith you that it's odd that they think they could "get away" with trying to buy a foriegn woman though.

I don't think any cultures that go against whatever principles you hold deserve any respect for it.If you find something wrong in a cultur fuck that culture. Where the appearence of respect or tolerance is required though, for survival for example then by all means keep up a facade.

[apathy maybe]

I can't really comment on the specific example (though I did think that Libya was a bit more modern and secular then that). I do agree with Jazzrat though.

I personally believe that we should support a variety of cultures and so on. However, where such a culture conflicts with your personal ethical/political system, fuck that culture.

[manic expression]

As far as how to respond to a culture that one feels is intolerant, there is basically very little you can do. A person should just try to not let it get in the way and try to enjoy themselves.

Also, try to realize that almost ANY culture will have misogynist and chauvinistic men, it is unfortunately something that all countries, peoples and cultures suffer from. I've heard worse stories about the behavior of European men towards visiting women (Italy in specific, but no offense to Italians here). Understand that this is not something that is a facet of that culture, but something that is a regrettable and changeable aspect of present human society.

When it comes to cultures, it is very important to recognize that they can change, and the disdainful parts can be and have been ended. A little more than a century ago, India saw the practice of expecting (or forcing) widows to die on their husbands' funeral pyres (as in burn themselves alive). That was rightfully done away with, and the people who did away with the practice were overwhelmingly Hindu activists; not British, western or secular activists. The point is that practically every culture has faults, but that they can be changed for the better.

[Red October]

if you're in a country with racist or intolerant culture, its best just to suck it up and keep to the local rules. its really not worth it to get your ass kicked or thrown in jail in a foreign country just beause you dont agree with some of their practices. thats not to say you have to like it, just dont go out of your way to offend the locals.

[The Bitter Hippy]

one thing: the "buy your daughter" thing happens a lot to westerners in the middle east/north africa, but it's a joke. Its a truly hilarious and yet slightly bitter play on the fearful gulibility of 'intrepid adventurers amongst the savage hordes' that they would honestly believe such propositions.

If a man really did want to buy your wife or daughter, do you honestly think they would a) offer an obvious tourist camels...what use does a tourist have for camels? b) do it in the middle of the street. They would conclude it like any other transaction, meeting the other participants in a defined setting. Also, any person with enough english to offer to purchase a family member has enough cultural awareness of europe to understand that such a proposition is madness.

But its a hell of a way to get a laugh at the expense of a rich (often obnoxious or terribly dressed...i'm going for stereotypes here) tourist. The looks on the faces of the toruists must be priceless(....or maybe they can be purchased for a few camels and an ass).

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by The Bitter [email protected] 21, 2007 01:26 am
one thing: the "buy your daughter" thing happens a lot to westerners in the middle east/north africa, but it's a joke. Its a truly hilarious and yet slightly bitter play on the fearful gulibility of 'intrepid adventurers amongst the savage hordes' that they would honestly believe such propositions.

If a man really did want to buy your wife or daughter, do you honestly think they would a) offer an obvious tourist camels...what use does a tourist have for camels? b) do it in the middle of the street. They would conclude it like any other transaction, meeting the other participants in a defined setting. Also, any person with enough english to offer to purchase a family member has enough cultural awareness of europe to understand that such a proposition is madness.

But its a hell of a way to get a laugh at the expense of a rich (often obnoxious or terribly dressed...i'm going for stereotypes here) tourist. The looks on the faces of the toruists must be priceless(....or maybe they can be purchased for a few camels and an ass).
Thank God, finally a good dose of common sense.

This thread is crap. Oh, I've heard another one! If you visit Holland, you'll be forced to wear clogs, eat potato, carrot and onion mashed together, and you can't look without seeing prostitutes! Also, all Belgians are dumb as bricks. And if you set even one foot outside of your hotel in Moscow, you'll immediately get stabbed by nazis. Oh, and Finns are all crazy drunks, stay away from them. Or how about those stiff-ass Brits, American rednecks, those smelly Italian thieves, etc.

Savages, I tell you! I know it's true, because my English teacher told me so. Comrades, what must we do about it? How are we supposed to tolerate these savage cultures???

:rolleyes:

Seriously, move this to Chit Chat.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by The Bitter Hippy+January 21, 2007 01:26 am--> (The Bitter Hippy @ January 21, 2007 01:26 am)one thing: the "buy your daughter" thing happens a lot to westerners in the middle east/north africa, but it's a joke. Its a truly hilarious and yet slightly bitter play on the fearful gulibility of 'intrepid adventurers amongst the savage hordes' that they would honestly believe such propositions[/b]
Do you base this on having lived in the area or what? Usually if an utter stranger does it, yes you're right of course it's a joke. If you happen to have known someone within that culture for a long time, say because you live there, and they offer to buy a daughter from you ( I don't think they buy wives, although I don't know first hand) are you sure that's a joke?


.If a man really did want to buy your wife or daughter, do you honestly think they would a) offer an obvious tourist camels...what use does a tourist have for camels? b) do it in the middle of the street. They would conclude it like any other transaction, meeting the other participants in a defined setting. Also, any person with enough english to offer to purchase a family member has enough cultural awareness of europe to understand that such a proposition is madness.

But its a hell of a way to get a laugh at the expense of a rich (often obnoxious or terribly dressed...i'm going for stereotypes here) tourist. The looks on the faces of the toruists must be priceless(....or maybe they can be purchased for a few camels and an ass). Haha, yeah it is actually a fairly good joke. I remember one bloke offered 40 camels and a bag of hashish for my mum or her sister or someone ( I wasn't there at the time.). Should have taken it, that's a fairly reaonable price :lol:


"WWSD"

This thread is crap. Oh, I've heard another one! If you visit Holland, you'll be forced to wear clogs, eat potato, carrot and onion mashed together, and you can't look without seeing prostitutes! Also, all Belgians are dumb as bricks. And if you set even one foot outside of your hotel in Moscow, you'll immediately get stabbed by nazis. Oh, and Finns are all crazy drunks, stay away from them. Or how about those stiff-ass Brits, American rednecks, those smelly Italian thieves, etc. I think this about things that actually are part of the culture (I'm more concerened with the spitting at uncovered women than they joking about buying someone's wife) or define a large section of it, as such it applies to larger areas than just countries. Although if I were to take an example from a country that had a culture I really disliked one it would be where cutting the hand of a theif was still law and you were not allowed to buy or sell alchohol (COuntry being Brunei, I don't know how much it's changed but I really doubt it's changed any). Problems with european and american type cultures are even easier to make, and are indeed made on this board day in day out.

What do you think of the actual question though? SHould we tolerate cultures that contain repulsive elements? If so why?

[Janus]

The incident could've been a joke like others said but if it did actually happen then I would think that it is mainly only limited to very isolated cases or areas.

Any time when you decide to travel through backward areas such as this, you're probably going to have to deal with such things. I suppose that the best thing to do is to at least appease their cultural values and avoid offending anyone for your own well-being. There's nothing wrong with diverse cultures but it's definitely necessary to change the aspects of cultures that are reactionary.

[The Bitter Hippy]

@jazzrat: It just would not happen. If we take for granted that nobody would just offer the proposition out of the blue, but would rather make your acquaintance first, then they would surely understand that you would never consider such an offer. And i know because i have spoken about this on numerous occasions to some egyptian friends of mine. Most of them have truly sidesplitting stories of tourist-shocking.

And if we're going to go into it; there is no provision in islam (theologically speaking) for the selling of daughters, which necessitates a forced/coerced marriage. But its just part of patriarchy i guess, it probably happens somewhere. It used to happen all over the place. (and i'd take 40 bags of hash and a camel for my mum)

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by The Bitter [email protected] 21, 2007 08:05 pm
(and i'd take 40 bags of hash and a camel for my mum)
How about 41 bags of hash and no camel?

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by WWSD+January 20, 2007 09:31 pm--> (WWSD @ January 20, 2007 09:31 pm)
The Bitter [email protected] 21, 2007 01:26 am
one thing: the "buy your daughter" thing happens a lot to westerners in the middle east/north africa, but it's a joke. Its a truly hilarious and yet slightly bitter play on the fearful gulibility of 'intrepid adventurers amongst the savage hordes' that they would honestly believe such propositions.

If a man really did want to buy your wife or daughter, do you honestly think they would a) offer an obvious tourist camels...what use does a tourist have for camels? b) do it in the middle of the street. They would conclude it like any other transaction, meeting the other participants in a defined setting. Also, any person with enough english to offer to purchase a family member has enough cultural awareness of europe to understand that such a proposition is madness.

But its a hell of a way to get a laugh at the expense of a rich (often obnoxious or terribly dressed...i'm going for stereotypes here) tourist. The looks on the faces of the toruists must be priceless(....or maybe they can be purchased for a few camels and an ass).
Thank God, finally a good dose of common sense.

This thread is crap. Oh, I've heard another one! If you visit Holland, you'll be forced to wear clogs, eat potato, carrot and onion mashed together, and you can't look without seeing prostitutes! Also, all Belgians are dumb as bricks. And if you set even one foot outside of your hotel in Moscow, you'll immediately get stabbed by nazis. Oh, and Finns are all crazy drunks, stay away from them. Or how about those stiff-ass Brits, American rednecks, those smelly Italian thieves, etc.

Savages, I tell you! I know it's true, because my English teacher told me so. Comrades, what must we do about it? How are we supposed to tolerate these savage cultures???

:rolleyes:

Seriously, move this to Chit Chat. [/b]
Fuck you, I was just using this as an example to better explain what my question was. Whether the story that she told me is even true or not, or if they were just joking, my question is not changed.

Also, I meant to say MORROCO not Libya.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by The Bitter [email protected] 21, 2007 08:05 pm
@jazzrat: It just would not happen. If we take for granted that nobody would just offer the proposition out of the blue, but would rather make your acquaintance first, then they would surely understand that you would never consider such an offer. And i know because i have spoken about this on numerous occasions to some egyptian friends of mine. Most of them have truly sidesplitting stories of tourist-shocking.

And if we're going to go into it; there is no provision in islam (theologically speaking) for the selling of daughters, which necessitates a forced/coerced marriage. But its just part of patriarchy i guess, it probably happens somewhere. It used to happen all over the place. (and i'd take 40 bags of hash and a camel for my mum)
It does depend, obviously, on who you are and everything - whether or not they know if you support/oppose buying and selling of women etc... Although I don't think it's usual, anymore at least, for someone to outright buy a woman - I know however that dowries do play a large part in some cultures.

There probably is no such provision in Islam but their may well be in the culture of the specific nation, which I guess is what you're saying with the patriarchy comment. Do you agree though that we shouldn't tolerate other cultures if we find their habits/customs reprehensible or do you think we should respect everyone's culture, regardless - because it is their culture.