The Fishes

[Red October]

SPOILERS! Don'te read if you havent seen Children of Men!








what do you think of The Fishes in children of men? i think they're fairly misguided and some of them (long dreadlocke guy) seem pretty thuggish. discuss.

[BreadBros]

===DO NOT READ THIS THREAD IF YOU HAVENT SEEN THE MOVIE===

1. Overall goal of overthrowing the gov and doing away with the detainment camps was right IMO.
2. Thinking that the baby would provoke the uprising or that that was more useful than getting it to the Human Project was misguided/wrong.
3. The entire group is highly focused on their goals and are willing to kill/backstab each other in order to accomplish them but this only leads to intra-group conspiracies and dissolution, so they're somewhat insane and its fucked up how they kill Theo's father.

Thats what I think so far, you?

Also, may I ask what everyones favorite scenes were? I thought politically the best were:
1. The lengthy driving sequence through London highlighting the squalor most of the population lives in until the car goes through the private gates and shows how the upper class have secluded themselves and their wealth in a sort of private city.
2. Of course the whole sequence of driving through the processing areas for the detainment camps in the bus.
3. The whole scene where Theo and Ki are trying to get to the boat and the uprising is occuring and the Fishes have brought in guns and the refugees are marching through the streets.

[Red October]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 08:31 pm
===DO NOT READ THIS THREAD IF YOU HAVENT SEEN THE MOVIE===

1. Overall goal of overthrowing the gov and doing away with the detainment camps was right IMO.
2. Thinking that the baby would provoke the uprising or that that was more useful than getting it to the Human Project was misguided/wrong.
3. The entire group is highly focused on their goals and are willing to kill/backstab each other in order to accomplish them but this only leads to intra-group conspiracies and dissolution, so they're somewhat insane and its fucked up how they kill Theo's father.

Thats what I think so far, you?

apart from the marches in the refugee city, it didnt look like they had a whole lot of support from the masses. and when they kidnap theo they make refference to "not bombing anymore", hinting that they used to bomb civilian targets. another bad thing. they seem like theyre so obsessed with their goals that htey lose sight of what's actually important at the moment, leading to a weakening of their struggle.

[BreadBros]

Actually if I remember correctly the dialogue states that they used bomb locations, NOT with the intention of killing civilians, but that civilians did accidently get killed in one bombing and they have stopped bombing since then.

Also, its true that they didn't have wide support from the British populace. Then again some elements of fascist/Nazi resistance didnt have much support either back in the day. They saw that it was more important to move quickly to save the refugee lives/end the authoritarian government than to wait for mass support. Then again we dont get many glimpses of UK at-large, other than the urban tenement streets, the government department Theo works in and his family home in the woods.

[bcbm]

I think they were pretty much a textbook example of everything that is fucked about armed specialist parties.

[Red October]

the fishes also executed civilians in the refugee city and hid in a building full of innocents that was then blown up because of them.

the guy with dreadlockes who killed the leader of the fishes reminds me of zach de la rocha.

[Guerrilla22]

I'm not exactly sure what their politcal aims were, they clearly wanted to overthrow the government threw an uprising, they seemed to be left wing, but other than that, I'm not sure how kidnapping a baby was going to lead to a sucessful uprising.

[Red October]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2007 01:55 pm
I'm not exactly sure what their politcal aims were, they clearly wanted to overthrow the government threw an uprising, they seemed to be left wing, but other than that, I'm not sure how kidnapping a baby was going to lead to a sucessful uprising.
they wanted to use the baby as a symbol (a "flag" as they put it). they probably thought if they had the only baby in the world, people would see the fishes as the hope for earth's salvation and rally behind them.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

what is this counterrevolutionary nonsense lol, the fishes were fucking awesome, they provoked the revolution!!!

[ahab]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 03:59 am
what is this counterrevolutionary nonsense lol, the fishes were fucking awesome, they provoked the revolution!!!
yea i'd have to agree, I mean yea they did do some dumb shit like kill theo's father, but fuck you cant blame them for holding out in that building cuz they were getting chased by fucking tanks! thats how it would be I think, hiding out wherever and using any possible cover you could find, there will always be casualties.

My favorite part was the end of course, from when they got to the refugee camp and on, except for the birth part that grossed me out lol

[Red October]

the uprising in the refugee camp looked more like it was led by radical islamists, not the fishes.

[Guerrilla22]

The fishes were guilty of nechaevism in the highest degree.

[ahab]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 06:28 pm
The fishes were guilty of nechaevism in the highest degree.
nechwhatism?

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 10:20 pm
yea i'd have to agree, I mean yea they did do some dumb shit like kill theo's father, but fuck you cant blame them for holding out in that building cuz they were getting chased by fucking tanks! thats how it would be I think, hiding out wherever and using any possible cover you could find, there will always be casualties.
This is precisely the problem with the "armed struggle!!" mindset. Murdering people for no reason other than that they get in the way of your half-baked and corrupt schemes in your lust for power, and then using them as human shields in a similar endeavor is not acceptable. Sure, there will be casualties, but they should be the people who think its a fucking good idea to run around and shoot tanks, not people trapped in a building.

[ahab]

Originally posted by black coffee black metal+January 26, 2007 12:38 am--> (black coffee black metal @ January 26, 2007 12:38 am)
[email protected] 23, 2007 10:20 pm
yea i'd have to agree, I mean yea they did do some dumb shit like kill theo's father, but fuck you cant blame them for holding out in that building cuz they were getting chased by fucking tanks! thats how it would be I think, hiding out wherever and using any possible cover you could find, there will always be casualties.
This is precisely the problem with the "armed struggle!!" mindset. Murdering people for no reason other than that they get in the way of your half-baked and corrupt schemes in your lust for power, and then using them as human shields in a similar endeavor is not acceptable. Sure, there will be casualties, but they should be the people who think its a fucking good idea to run around and shoot tanks, not people trapped in a building. [/b]
how the fuck do you expect to overthrow a large, powerful, corrupt government without an armed revolution? You can preach peace all you want, but the government wouldnt think twice about killing you or anyone who opposes them, especially any real threat. You could try and make change democratically, but nothing changes, the ruling class will give some lee-way (or however the fuck you spell it) but in the end there will still be people controlling other people. We need to fight not take the passive approach and continue to be exploited!

[Plan9]

The official website has a short clip of Slavoj Zizek (a slovenian lacanian-marxist philosopher) discussing the film. I suggest you guys check it out.

"I think that the film gives the best diagnosis of ideological despair of late capitalism, of a society without history. This, I think, is the true despair of the film. The true infertility is the very lack of meaningful historical experience, and that's why I like this elegant point in the film of importing all the works of art. All those classical statues are there, but they are deprived of a world. They are totally meaningless because what does it mean to have a statue of Michelangelo or whatever, it only works if it signals a certain world, and when this world is lacking, it's nothing."

ahh..He's so insightful :)


http://www.childrenofmen.net

[bcbm]

how the fuck do you expect to overthrow a large, powerful, corrupt government without an armed revolution?

There is a difference between an armed revolution and armed urban guerrilla actions. The Fishes are obviously a product of the latter- they are armed specialists, not a mass revolution.


You can preach peace all you want, but the government wouldnt think twice about killing you or anyone who opposes them, especially any real threat. You could try and make change democratically, but nothing changes, the ruling class will give some lee-way (or however the fuck you spell it) but in the end there will still be people controlling other people. We need to fight not take the passive approach and continue to be exploited!

:rolleyes: Before you start making assumptions and end up looking like a complete fucking moron, you should probably read my posts and see what my views are. I never preached peace or democratic change.

Warning: Please don't flame other members.

[ahab]

Originally posted by black coffee black [email protected] 31, 2007 02:17 am
Yeah... :wacko: I mean fuck, just look at my signature!
well sry this:

This is precisely the problem with the "armed struggle!!" mindset
is what led me to believe that. It appears that you are against an armed struggle, at least thats how I took what you wrote.

They were armed specialists aiming for revolution, sure they themselves werent the only people in the revolution, otherwise it wouldnt be a revolution, they were just working to get it started, which appeared to be what they did.

[bcbm]

It appears that you are against an armed struggle, at least thats how I took what you wrote.

I'm against spectacular armed specialist parties a la RAF, BR, ETA, etc. I have no doubt that arms will play a role in any insurrectionary development, but there is no place for armed parties putting themselves "in charge," as the Fishes do in the movie and others have tried in reality.


They were armed specialists aiming for revolution, sure they themselves werent the only people in the revolution, otherwise it wouldnt be a revolution, they were just working to get it started, which appeared to be what they did.

No, they just snuck in to the refugee camp and started a fight. There appearing to be an equally dissatisfied element within the camp, led by Islamists apparently, and the Fishes were just trying to hijack that.

[ahab]

I'm against spectacular armed specialist parties a la RAF, BR, ETA, etc. I have no doubt that arms will play a role in any insurrectionary development, but there is no place for armed parties putting themselves "in charge," as the Fishes do in the movie and others have tried in reality.

ok I see what your saying, I thought you meant you were against any and all armed rebellion.



No, they just snuck in to the refugee camp and started a fight. There appearing to be an equally dissatisfied element within the camp, led by Islamists apparently, and the Fishes were just trying to hijack that.

wait I thought the fishes blew the whole in the fence and acted as agitators to get the crowds goin crazy, I didnt even know there was another group of Islamists involved, I need to see the movie again lol

[bcbm]

wait I thought the fishes blew the whole in the fence and acted as agitators to get the crowds goin crazy, I didnt even know there was another group of Islamists involved, I need to see the movie again lol

Remember the crowd marching and chanting "Allahu Akbar?" ;) There was even that crazy dude on the white horse...

[ahab]

Originally posted by black coffee black [email protected] 31, 2007 06:15 am

wait I thought the fishes blew the whole in the fence and acted as agitators to get the crowds goin crazy, I didnt even know there was another group of Islamists involved, I need to see the movie again lol

Remember the crowd marching and chanting "Allahu Akbar?" ;) There was even that crazy dude on the white horse...
yea I remember that, I didnt know what the fuck they were saying though, I knew they were immigrants so I just figured they were talkin in their native tongue lol