The dalai lama & china

[MJM]

The dalai lama an incarnation of a previous great spiritual leader.The way I see it he's a ruling class slave owner who fled his 'people' in their supposed hour of need.Now the capitalists trot him about like some kind of new age buddha with witty little reports about how to live a happy life.
If he truely believed his own publicity he'd return to China and die freeing his people I'm sure the west would help him,or maybe his people are glad to be rid of him.
This kind of elitist crap is the thing I hate most about capitalism.

[Elfinity]

First of all I dont pretend to be educated regarding the history of China, Tibet, and the Dalai Lama, so I cant really comment on that.

But....The Dalai Lama is a buddhist and a pacifist. It is not part of his spiritual teachings or moralty to engage in violent confrontation. The idea of a revolutionary war is therefore in direct opposition of what he is meant to represent.
I think it's unfair to expect him to forfeit those beliefs to suit the manner in which some people think Tibet should be defended.
The Dalai Lama is taking his own course in exile by attempting to educate and get public support for his peoples cause. As far as im concerned he's living in accordance to his beliefs and doing more alive than he would dead.

[MJM]

Ghandi was a pacisfist too and he at least stayed to fight.I'm not saying he should start a war ,you don't have to be violent to fight for freedom.

[Elfinity]

So you think that the Dalai Lama should die in Tibet at the hands of the Chinese as opposed to attempting to spread the word and put pressure on the Chinese government to withdraw from Tibet?

And remember what happened to Ghandi:-(

I just think that different people have different ways of achieving their goals, and that the Dalai Lama obviously feels he can do more in exile. It's not a question of lacking courage and character, rather a case of seeing things from a different angle.

Personally I believe words and education are our greatest weapons, and the Dalai Lama will achieve much more through education than being murdered by the Chinese.

[Guest]

I think that we shouldn't side with Tibet of China, just because China is "socialist". I dont consider China Socialism. The way I see it, it's a two bit dictatorship where the Party, not the Working class, owns the means of Production, the problem of Alienation and Class warfare continues.

China has basically sold out Communism. Amercian Imperialists and foriegn capitalists exploit the Chinese unmercifully, and they go hand in hand with the Party

I think that China should remain autonomous. The last thing the world needs is a new Cultural Revolution.

Mao made the mistake, and Chinese invadors are making the mistake, that Buddhist culture is old Capitalist Culture. McDonalds is Capitalist Culture, not Buddhism. Why cant China eliminate the Capitalist superstructure without eliminating the wise and valuable culture of Buddhism?

[Fires of History]

MJM ahh you see past the bullshit! High five comrade!

I studied history in college, so this topic is getting old to me but here we go.

First of all, there was no way, no way, that China was going to let Tibet just sit there. The times were those of expansion, and creating a mighty China-I say this to establish that the tibetan takeover was inevitable.

Also, the Dalai Lama left. Yes, he did, that little ***** just left. Why?

He says that he needed to continue being the spiritual leader of his people. Bullshit. He was a scared little boy and ran. He claims that his efforts AWAY from his people will ultimately do the most good. Nope, notta. There is nothing the international community can do save go to war with China, which isn't happening anytime soon, and certainly NOT over Tibet.

I see the Dalai Lama as appealing to the capitali$tic nations of the world to help save his 'spiritual' nation.

But the Dalai Lama is just a walking publicity stunt.

Nothing will change because of him. China is right in laughing at his actions and attempts.

I just love how the Dalai Lama has become quite the bestselling author.

It's all bullshit-and yes pop new age buddha crap.

He should have fought and died with his people. He should have made a better example of his life.

What's better? Martyr for a cause? Or runaway ***** who sucked the cocks of anyone who would listen and give him money- oh yeah now he thinks he a fucking Stephen King.

Down with the Dalai Lama and all religion! Power to the people of Tibet! Quit following the leader who has forsaken you!!! Quit following the impotent religion of the Dalai Lama!!!

Power to the People,
Trance

[Moskitto]

China also oppresses the Taoists. The Chinese government enforces Confussian moral values onto it's people and sadly it has been the tradition for Confussion beurocrats to oppress Taoism and Bhuddism.

[Fires of History]

Moskitto,

Well put. Yes, China, as much as I respect them, does have it's problems. It seems like in it's zeal to create the perfect communist state, they have forgotten a person's right to practice religion freely.

There oppression of groups, especially the current Fao Lun Gong (spelling?????) does concern me quite a bit.

Power to the People,
Trance

[pce]

this is ridiculous. there is not glory in death. martyrdom is not anything anyone should strive for. everyone can do much more in life than in death. che didn't want to be a martyr either. there is no point in it. I don't see how anyone could say the dalai lama should be willing to die for his cause. what would that accomplish when he can (and is doing) so much more alive? it's foolish, idealistic, cowardly, and impractical to willingly "sacrifice" yourself.

[Fires of History]

PCE,

Well said, I understand where you are coming from.

But, would we think of Gandhi at all the same way if he had fled to another country to 'raise support'? Staying to fight, whatever the cost, has it's own legacy and honor. Sure, don't just throw your life away, but do you think if the Dalai Lama had been killed his life would have been a waste?

The issue for me is THOSE LEFT BEHIND to suffer the fate he decided was just not for him.

Power to the People,
Trance

[MJM]

The people of tibet don't give a rats ass about the guy yet we're told he's their spiritual leader. And his phillosophies are mind-numbing rubbish.
As for falun gong. Have any of you guy's seen them protesting outside a chinese embassy? I swear, if I was the leader of a country and some wacko religion was doing that to it's people I'd put the leader in jail too.
The comparrison between Ghani and The dalai lama really doesn't stack up, compare the actions taken by each and the relative histories of the two men.

The Chinese liberated the Tibetans from a tyrannical fuedal lord, now he's crying with the other ruling classes about how unfair things are.

[Fires of History]

MJM,

I wasn't really trying to compare the Dalai Lama and Gandhi- I was just pointing out that our entire thinking towards Gandhi would be different if he would have fled when the times got tough.

And yes, the Dalai Lama is a little mind-numbing. And the Falun Gong seem bent on some quest that only they could possibly comprehend...

Power to the People,
Trance

[pce]

the dalai lama isn't allowed in china. if he were to go back he'd be thrown in prison and probably killed. (i think).

this is very different with gandhi's situation. gandhi wasn't exhiled, he was allowed to stay in india. if he was exhiled as well, he would have been imprisoned/killed/whatever before he even had a chance to gain a following.

"do you think if the Dalai Lama had been killed his life would have been a waste?"

no, i don't. however, the rest of his life would have been wasted and so would his death. i'm sorry, i just don't see the glamour in death. any death.

[maoist3]

Fires of History:
Freedom to practice religion has always existed in China since 1949. Even today the
capitalist Chinese government and Buddhists split the tourist money at the temples that support various monks.

What has not always existed is the right to own property in land. If that's part of your definition of the freedom to practice religion, then of course Mao did repress the Dalai Lama's religion.

If slavery is part of your idea of "practicing religion," then again Mao repressed religion.


http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/faq/tibet.html

MJM: Yes, Gandhi and Dalai Lama do compare. Gandhi was a recruiter during World War I for the British military. He also offered the British during World War II. Likewise, the Dalai Lama is tied into numerous murders
and his brother was organizing armed struggle with the CIA.

[Mazdak]

I think it is funny how i hear aobut starving people living in tibet. Yet, although they are starving and poor, they live right near a buddhist temple MADE OF GOLD. they pour all their resources into donations for the temple. In that way, i have no sympathy. Religion, even pacifistic ones, arent great.

Religion itself should not be tolerated and abolished completely.

[Gergely]

Hey, I hear comments here from people who mostly don't understand anything from buddhism and have never read a book from and about the Dalai Lama. If anyone will read just one book then he will understand that Dalai Lama criticizes his own feudal system. He was only 16 when he went into exil, what could he have achieved at that age? A massive economical change of a culture which was feudal for about 500 years? To organize a super military to fight against the "superpower" China?
When he was in exil he tried to free his land which those Chinese pseudo communists took over. Would you do that with military? Not even a few million people against a one billion nation?
The Dalai Lama has created a peace plan in which China will still control Tibet but would grant the Dalai Lama to be the spiritual and political leader. The D.L criticizes the feudal system and wants to reform it. But how can he do that if those dumbfuck capitalists (you can't refer them as being communists) in Peking don't show any motivation to cooperate with him? And do you really think China is freeing Tibet? If you want to free Tibet from whatever then you don't kill hundred thousands of Tibetians. And you wouldn't bild there a nuclear ramp in the mountains.
Besides, you can only have an own opinion if you have somewhat of an education and if not, well then comes that bullshit I see posted in a homepage where usually only educated people have something to say.
I bet you don't even no anything about buddhism but you talk about it as if you deal with it for years.
So sorry for beating down on you but just think about it a little bit! You will not regret it!!

[Maaja]

The Dalai Lama says himself to be a Marxist. I don't know what that does mean in his context but I've read it from several articles and speeches.

[MJM]

Lamaism is very much a submit to reincarnated leaders type religion. Accept your lot in life as it's all karma etc.

Nothing Marxist about it IMO.

Gergely
The dalai lama wants to rule tibet again, no surprise there. This isn't a good thing it merely shows his hunger for power. Why should China co-operate with a bourgeois fuedal lord?
I agree Chinas no great bastion of marxism any more, but Mao freed Tibet from a fuedal system of governing, plain and simple. I also doubt the dalai lama would be so lenient with his power and willing to negotiate if he'd never been dethroned. Don't forget he was a king. The ruling class are my enemy, are they yours?

[peaccenicked]

Dalia lama on Marxism.
''Greater Things > Lexicon of Life > Dalai Lama pro Marxist


The Dalai Lama on Marxism

"I was very young when I first heard the word communist. The 13th Dalai Lama had left a testament that I read. Also, some of the monks who were helping my studies had been in monasteries with Mongolians. They had talked about the destruction that had taken place since the communists came to Mongolia. We did not know anything about Marxist ideology. But we all feared destruction and thought of communists with terror. It was only when I went to China in 1954-55 that I actually studied Marxist ideology and learned the history of the Chinese revolution. Once I understood Marxism, my attitude change completely. I was so attracted to Marxism, I even expressed my wish to become a Communist Party member."

"Tibet at that time was very, very backward. The ruling class did not seem to care, and there was much inequality. Marxism talked about an equal and just distribution of wealth. I was very much in favor of this. Then there was the concept of self-creation. Marxism talked about self-reliance, without depending on a creator or a God. That was very attractive. I had tried to some things for my people, but I did not have enough time. I still think that if a genuine communist movement had come to Tibet, there would have been much benefit to the people.''

[MJM]

I question the dalai lamas sincerity on that one. The free tibet movement is largely backed by leftists so he has to be seen as an accetable figurehead. If he said he hated Marxism and commies he'd soon be down the sink.

Also if he believed what he preached about karma and resurrection, he'd happily swallow his medicine and wait to be reborn in more favourable karmic conditions.
Why would he ask the peasants to do this but not do it himself?
More double standards of the ruling class me thinks.

[peaccenicked]

http://www.tibet.com/China/victor.html
It looks like public image stuff.

[Lefty]

ok: WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH ESCAPING FROM YOUR COUNTRY TO SPREAD THE WORD ABOUT AN OPPRESSIVE DICATATORSHIP THAT IS KILLING THE PEOPLE YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE HELPING? The reason the dalai lama didnt stay is because he would have had to fight or be killed, and as i understand it, buddhism isnt big on fighting. So, he escaped and is trying to spread the word.

[Conghaileach]

Couldn't he have sent an emissary?

[RedRevolutionary87]

yes buddhism also promotes living a simple life in poverty...but that didnt stop the elitist fuck from living in a palace...no king is a good king...anyone who owns servents/slaves deserves to choke on his own balls...we cant have simpathay to a rich religious leader that exploits the poor just because he promotes peace...dont get blinded by kind smiles, there are teeth behind them

[kingbee]

i wont say im an expert at all on this, but my dads a maoist, and has been bout 30 times to china (hes pretty fucked off with the chinese "communist" goverment), so i know a bit.
the dalai lama and mao got on very well apparently to start off with. then the chinese invaded, apparently after a serfs revolt against the dalai lama, cos buddhism basically sent off kids to monastries, and funded the dalai lamas pocket- eg the only place in the whole of tibet that had electricity was the potala palace, and the only car which was allowed was the lamas too (carried over the himalayas on the back of a yaks- poor yak).
basically, cos the lama was only bout 16, he advisors mainly told him what to do (the lamas often had avisors when they were small, and often the advisors had them killed when they saw them wanting independance from them). possibly, they told him to bog off, no ones really sure.
the cultural revolution did kill off many monastries, they they were oppressing many tibetans, by forcing them to join. there are still quite a few running, but the chinese have chosen their main lamas (not the dalai, but the panchen lama).
the chinese gave electricy, water and many other neccesties to the tibetans, turning it from a backward country. there is a lot of chinese immigration into tibet, but many dont mind- in fact one tibetan who we met said that shed rather marry a chinese, as the tibetans "were lazy and idle".
last point- maybe tibet should be free. but what about the basque country, corsica and, of course, palestine? many of the free tibet activist are such hippocrites by not noticing the same type of oppression right under their own noses. its probably cos tibets under a "communist" goverment. anyway, mao would be dead pissed off with wots goin on in china at the mo.