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communist_kyle
15th January 2007, 21:50
How central, if at all, is the concern for equality within socialism?

seriously..considering the history, or even just the theory...


your thoughts?

Matty_UK
15th January 2007, 22:38
It's nowhere near as important as certain people like to claim. It is not enforced equality, rather it is a classless society; classless meaning everyone shares the same relation to production. It is more equal than capitalism, but I would bet that people with rare and important skills would get rewards of some sort in a socialist society.

Rawthentic
16th January 2007, 04:42
They wouldn't get more "rewards", they would be better able to offer their services to the people and society.

This should be moved to Learning.

Matty_UK
16th January 2007, 12:04
Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 04:42 am
They wouldn't get more "rewards", they would be better able to offer their services to the people and society.

This should be moved to Learning.
How do you know?

Hit The North
16th January 2007, 12:43
t's nowhere near as important as certain people like to claim.

Nonsense. It's absolutely central to the organization and future progression of a socialist society. Unlike capitalism, the socialist society will attempt to establish the most equal distribution possible within the limits of its means in the here and now; and its future development will be towards the greatest realisation of human equality possible: communism.

RevMARKSman
16th January 2007, 13:21
Originally posted by Citizen [email protected] 16, 2007 07:43 am

t's nowhere near as important as certain people like to claim.

Nonsense. It's absolutely central to the organization and future progression of a socialist society. Unlike capitalism, the socialist society will attempt to establish the most equal distribution possible within the limits of its means in the here and now; and its future development will be towards the greatest realisation of human equality possible: communism.
Besides the goal of a stateless, classless society I thought the goal of a communist revolution was the emancipation of the working class. Not necessarily equality in itself.

dannie
16th January 2007, 13:49
But shouldn't we strive for a communist society where economic and social equality are the norm? One of the great potential positives of the communist project is in fact equality. One of the byproducts of a classless society can and probably will be economic equality.

Hit The North
16th January 2007, 14:32
Originally posted by MonicaTTmed+January 16, 2007 02:21 pm--> (MonicaTTmed @ January 16, 2007 02:21 pm)
Citizen [email protected] 16, 2007 07:43 am

t's nowhere near as important as certain people like to claim.

Nonsense. It's absolutely central to the organization and future progression of a socialist society. Unlike capitalism, the socialist society will attempt to establish the most equal distribution possible within the limits of its means in the here and now; and its future development will be towards the greatest realisation of human equality possible: communism.
Besides the goal of a stateless, classless society I thought the goal of a communist revolution was the emancipation of the working class. Not necessarily equality in itself. [/b]
That's one way of looking at it. But personally I'm a socialist because I want an equal society - I fight for a workers state as the best way of securing that.

Pow R. Toc H.
16th January 2007, 17:42
The emancipation of the working class is neccessary because they are oppressed. So all your really doing to them is putting them on the same level as everybody else, i.e. equality.

Rawthentic
17th January 2007, 05:43
Originally posted by Matty_UK+January 16, 2007 04:04 am--> (Matty_UK @ January 16, 2007 04:04 am)
[email protected] 16, 2007 04:42 am
They wouldn't get more "rewards", they would be better able to offer their services to the people and society.

This should be moved to Learning.
How do you know? [/b]
Thats because, unlike under capitalism where people get rewarded for their "rare and important skills" through it being a commodity, under socialism the profit motive is ended, thus using these skills as a means to better serve society.

gilhyle
17th January 2007, 18:59
The cry for equality is part of the political ideals and programe of capitalism - notwithstanding (or maybe because of) the inescapable difference between capitalist ideals and capitalist reality.

Comunism is not about realising the ideals of capitalism.

'From each according to his ability/ to each according to his need' means complete inequality in everything....wish I could live to see it.

loveme4whoiam
17th January 2007, 19:41
Equality is central to socialism. The emancipation of the working class is the largest step towards that end, because it is the largest yet most oppressed section of society, without which the others would cease to function. Once that is achieved, it will be far, far easier to achieve a truly equal society, and I don't think anyone should settle for anything less than that.

dannie
17th January 2007, 19:49
'From each according to his ability/ to each according to his need' means complete inequality in everything....wish I could live to see it.

I think you are mixing up equality as in being the same to economic and social equalty wich the above quote means in it's pure essence. Not everyone is the same, but they do have the same social and economic status or to put it with a word I dislike, opportunity. Whereas capitalism puts on the guise of equality to mask the need for inequality so that the capitalist system of organization can be preserved.
Of course as communist we know capitalism is doomed to end, what comes in place is another thing...

Matty_UK
17th January 2007, 20:02
I see increased equality as a consequence, but I don't see it as the immediate goal or see it as absolutely essential to communism. If, say, a pilot or a doctor is willing to do a highly difficult job for the same reward as everyone else then that's cool, but I don't think it's a problem if there needs to some sort of motivation given to ensure people do the difficult jobs. Not money, but I think the technocrats idea of "energy credits" seems a realistic replacement for capital.

BTW, when I said equality is "nowhere near as important as people claim," the people I were thinking of were the idiots who think central to communist thought is making everybody the same in every way. Which is nonsense but a lot of people believe it, I think we should emphasise emancipation of the proletariat more than we emphasise equality.

Matty_UK
17th January 2007, 20:05
Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 06:59 pm
The cry for equality is part of the political ideals and programe of capitalism - notwithstanding (or maybe because of) the inescapable difference between capitalist ideals and capitalist reality.
Could you explain a bit further, please...?

Hit The North
18th January 2007, 01:14
Gilhyle


Comunism is not about realising the ideals of capitalism.


It's precisely because capital promises equality but fails to deliver which gives socialist argument its appeal precisely to those who suffer most the inescapable inequalities and privations of the system.


'From each according to his ability/ to each according to his need' means complete inequality in everything....wish I could live to see it.

It means nothing of the sort and if you think socialism is about increasing inequality I think you need to question whether you're following the correct political creed.

Matty:


If, say, a pilot or a doctor is willing to do a highly difficult job for the same reward as everyone else then that's cool, but I don't think it's a problem if there needs to some sort of motivation given to ensure people do the difficult jobs.

Are they your idea of 'difficult jobs'? Try doing brain-dead, menial, physical work for minimum wage. That's the work people should be compensated for. Being a pilot is a piece of piss and being a doctor is interesting. Those guys should be taking wage cuts.

LuĂ­s Henrique
18th January 2007, 13:19
Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 06:59 pm
The cry for equality is part of the political ideals and programe of capitalism - notwithstanding (or maybe because of) the inescapable difference between capitalist ideals and capitalist reality.

Comunism is not about realising the ideals of capitalism.

'From each according to his ability/ to each according to his need' means complete inequality in everything....wish I could live to see it.
That's difference, not inequality.

Luís Henrique

LuĂ­s Henrique
18th January 2007, 13:26
Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 08:02 pm
If, say, a pilot or a doctor is willing to do a highly difficult job for the same reward as everyone else then that's cool, but I don't think it's a problem if there needs to some sort of motivation given to ensure people do the difficult jobs.
Pilots or doctors aren't better paid because their job is more difficult, but because their labour force is more expensive.


Not money, but I think the technocrats idea of "energy credits" seems a realistic replacement for capital.

It is still the same bourgeois market logic.


BTW, when I said equality is "nowhere near as important as people claim," the people I were thinking of were the idiots who think central to communist thought is making everybody the same in every way.

Indeed. The only thing nastier than cappies who claim that we are going to socialise tootbrushes, are wannabe socialists who think the same way.

Luís Henrique

gilhyle
19th January 2007, 00:25
Originally posted by Luís [email protected] 18, 2007 01:19 pm
[That's difference, not inequality.

Luís Henrique
I think not. Im not confusing anything. If a 'right' is applied equally irrespective of difference then it is not 'equally' applied at all. Thus equality is unequal in the face of difference. Thus we can conclude (with Marx) that to be applied equally rights must be applied unequally....thus equality is nonsense. Its an ideal of capitalism that cant be made sense of.

Communism in its earliest or weakest forms may adopt this capitalist ideal, but it must grow out of the fetishising of equality to mature.

Hit The North
19th January 2007, 00:46
Communism in its earliest or weakest forms may adopt this capitalist ideal, but it must grow out of the fetishising of equality to mature.

Great! Straight back to class society then. What a wonderful future. :rolleyes:

gilhyle
20th January 2007, 14:56
Originally posted by Matty_UK+January 17, 2007 08:05 pm--> (Matty_UK @ January 17, 2007 08:05 pm)
[email protected] 17, 2007 06:59 pm
The cry for equality is part of the political ideals and programe of capitalism - notwithstanding (or maybe because of) the inescapable difference between capitalist ideals and capitalist reality.
Could you explain a bit further, please...? [/b]
Any society creates ideals, which inevitably it doesnt live up to. For example the ancient Messopotamian and Egyptian Empires fostered an ideal of an enlightened monarchy in which the poor were treated justly and the rich were put in their place by a wise - God sponsored - ruler. This 'ideal' was clearly unrealisable as it suggested that the ruler was in some way distant from the wealthy elite from whom - in fact - he had come.

But it is not a problem for a society to advocate an ideal which it cannot realise. On the contrary, the nourishment of ideals which contradict basic economic realities of a society usually prove essential to the maintenance of its stability

For a revolutionary really trying to overthrow dominant social relations there is always the threat of getting traped into merely advocating the fulfilment of the ideological ideals of that society, rather than pushing forward to new social relations.

Thus advocates of capitalism within feudal and absolutist social relations would often have been tempted to couch their radical alternative in terms of a 'return' to mythical original rights supposedly eroded by unreasonanble kings. This ideology of return was in fact a set of ideals spun by and for the feudal aristocracy as a gloss on their conflicts with the feudal monarchy. Radicals who got trapped into this way of thinking rarely saw the way forward with any clarity. (that said, even as late as the submissions from around the country to the French national assembly after the 1789 Revolution, you still see submissions formulated in terms of the demand for a return of lost rights - so the fact that the form of ideals of the falling society is adopted is not necessarily always fatal to the progressive potential of a political movement.)

In this case, capitalism promotes an ideal of 'equality', originally the ideal of equality before the law as a response the differentiated treatment of certain elites (priests, aristocracy, favoured merchants) by the Courts and practices such as Lettre de Cache (a form of internment without trial) and Star Chambers. In time, particularly with the growth of trade unions, capitalism alters its ideal to include a more substantive concept of equality of opportunity. To date, such ideals continue to drive the dominant political debates within the capitlaist political layers.

It is very tempting for communists to suggests that what they are doing will fulfill the ideals which emerge within capitalist society - that is very appealing because most people have been brought up to believe in those ideals - that is part of what coming from a capitalist society means.

So when I talk of communism adopting those ideas in its youth I am taking up Engels ideas from Anti Duhring about the different ways communist movements understand their purpose while existing within capitalist society : a weak commmunist movement will see itself as the true agent of the ideals capitalism nourtures; a mature communist movement on the verge of power is more likely to begin to develop its own ideals

Hit The North
20th January 2007, 18:41
gil:


It is very tempting for communists to suggests that what they are doing will fulfill the ideals which emerge within capitalist society - that is very appealing because most people have been brought up to believe in those ideals - that is part of what coming from a capitalist society means.

We need to ask why those former societies and the present one don't deliver on their promises of equality. Answer: they are class societies founded on the domination of a minority over a majority. The minority ruling class cannot therefore rid the society it presides over of inequality because its very existence depends on it.

The fact that capitalism cannot create equality but rather presides over its opposite is not a criticism of the concept or aspiration of equality; it's a criticism of capitalism.

A socialist revolution will for the first time in history usher in majority class rule. Upon that material basis we can achieve equality.

Otherwise, comrade, what's the point?

gilhyle
21st January 2007, 23:17
You are probably are correct that the ideal of a classless society would be different in character.

But that doesn't alter the fact that hidden deep in the capitalist ideal of equality is the miserly, un-communal individualism of capitalism.

In my view, the point of socialism will be defined by those who overthrow capitalism - I dont presume to pre-empt them. But for me, the point of struggle would be to fight against the suffering capitalism imposes and which has become unnecessary. I dont support an ideal, I support those who find certain unnecessary realities unacceptable.